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Baron von Eevl posted:Doesn't Paul walk into the desert because doing so will prevent the Fremen from collapsing in a civil war around whether a blind man can rule them? The politics is a contributing factor, but by then, Paul has made it very clear that he could see without eyes and that he could bend the Fremen to his will if he needed to. Realizing that he could and would bend them to his will may be part of why he decides against the Golden Path. He's done forcing his will upon the universe. Uncle Boogeyman posted:yeah i always saw Dune as kind of a deconstruction of "chosen one" fantasy stories, basically saying "if everyone starts saying that some young kid is 'the chosen one,' be very afraid." Yeah, Herbert is saying that superhumans are still just fallible humans with their own personal motivations and the prophecies that produce superhumans are just stories made up by fallible humans with their own personal motivations. I think one of the most important points in the first novel is that Paul's entire religion is based on a scam. The Lisan-al-Gaib myth is an invention of the Missionaria Protectiva made up for if a Bene Gesserit sister found herself in trouble on Arrakis and needed to lay low among the Fremen until it blows over.
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Jul 5, 2023 19:34
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It's been a while but from what I remember I kinda get vibes of Herbert distrusting authority but also kind of getting apologist about fascism, especially with Leto II. Sometimes hard men need to make difficult decisions, and Leto becomes terrible so he can force humanity to destroy him and build something better. It's a "you can't have heroes without villains" thing, but with the villains being a prerequisite of heroic acts rather than a consequence of someone wanting to be a hero.
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Jul 5, 2023 20:00
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Yeah Paul really did save humanity with his actions, via his horrible tyrant son, because the alternative was apparently even worse. So it kind of cheapens the whole "watch out for self proclaimed saviours!" message. Doesn't help that very little is actually explained about the bigger details of what's happening or why, and it mostly has to be inferred.
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Jul 5, 2023 20:09
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:yeah i always saw Dune as kind of a deconstruction of "chosen one" fantasy stories, basically saying "if everyone starts saying that some young kid is 'the chosen one,' be very afraid."
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Jul 5, 2023 20:50
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PeterWeller posted:The politics is a contributing factor, but by then, Paul has made it very clear that he could see without eyes and that he could bend the Fremen to his will if he needed to. Realizing that he could and would bend them to his will may be part of why he decides against the Golden Path. He's done forcing his will upon the universe. Although at the end of Messiah he loses his prescience and probably can't bend the Fremen to his will anymore. It's been a couple years since I read it but I always interpreted the ending as Paul making it clear that he's now no different than any other Fremen, subject to the same limitations and customs. It's interesting that his failure to become the Kwisatz Haderach and save humanity himself is also a personal redemption arc.
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Jul 5, 2023 21:02
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stratdax posted:Yeah Paul really did save humanity with his actions, via his horrible tyrant son, because the alternative was apparently even worse. So it kind of cheapens the whole "watch out for self proclaimed saviours!" message. Children and God Emperor definitely do a lot to gently caress with the larger narrative. I still mostly dig God Emperor for being Big Gonzo Science Fiction, but it presents its story as more universalist as opposed to earlier books' "here's one hosed up thing that happened."
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Jul 5, 2023 21:46
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Just to be clear, this isn't subtext - it's actual-text, in that it's what the first three books is very explicitly about. Kynes, as he's dying in the desert after the Harkonnen attack, remembers his father's very explicit words that the worst thing that could happen to a people would be to be saved by a Hero. Herbert was not subtle. It's just that it's a moment that gets very easily snipped out when needing to edit an adaptation.
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Jul 5, 2023 21:56
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It's a bit tricky given Leto II's whole deal is pretty much 'make them smoke the whole pack'; deliberately abusing the chosen one and god-king mythos to the hilt to be excessively and unnecessarily repressive, openly revelling in hypocrisy and making a joke out of the foundation of his power, creating a status quo guaranteed to collapse the moment he's gone and giving humanity as a whole such a distaste for everything associated with his rule. Even trying to discredit the Butlerian Jihad.
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Jul 6, 2023 12:03
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Smoking on that Leto pack
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Jul 6, 2023 12:24
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Cognac McCarthy posted:Although at the end of Messiah he loses his prescience and probably can't bend the Fremen to his will anymore. It's been a couple years since I read it but I always interpreted the ending as Paul making it clear that he's now no different than any other Fremen, subject to the same limitations and customs. It's interesting that his failure to become the Kwisatz Haderach and save humanity himself is also a personal redemption arc. That's correct, but he loses his prescience precisely when he has no further need for it because he's produced heirs. You're right that turning away from being the messianic superhero and just embracing his place as a blind and broken Fremen is his own personal redemption. stratdax posted:Yeah Paul really did save humanity with his actions, via his horrible tyrant son, because the alternative was apparently even worse. So it kind of cheapens the whole "watch out for self proclaimed saviours!" message. I dunno. I feel like Leto II's story is, "you saw what happened with Paul and you still want a messiah? Okay, here's this freakish abominable child who's gonna make a deal with some long forgotten pharaoh and become an inhuman worm god to grind upon humanity for 3000 or so years while he breeds the gene that will make us resistant to murder robots. And right before accomplishing that goal, he almost fucks it all up because somebody else created his perfect girlfriend." Then the next two books are about how thousands of years after that, we're all still arguing about whether or not 3000 years of worm god was a good idea and murdering each other with literally inexplicable devices, but at least we've bred dogs that are also chairs.
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Jul 6, 2023 18:37
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Herbert was a philosophically confusing dude who at best represented a now forgotten political niche of eco-conservatism, built on a solid foundation of distrusting authority while venerating and calling for a return to nature/classic modes of simpler modes of living. The Fremen being STRONG because their life is shaped by desert hardship is a specific ideal that really only found purchase when there was enough a wealth imbalance and active imperialism that westerners can dream about exotic foreign peoples and those same exotic foreign peoples couldn't tell them they're just trying to live their life same as them. He's a specific type of PNW hut hobo who you can talk about the ills of futurism or whatever, but sometime after the third beer he's gonna go off what's really wrong with society (the types of people he doesn't like). All in all there's alot worse in the genre.
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Jul 7, 2023 17:55
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There's also the extremely blatant theme that the Fremen lifestyle and philosophy is very much shaped by their surroundings and material conditions- even in Paul's relatively short reign it soon becomes incredibly different even after the great jihad of revenge across the galaxy because they've mingled with the rest of humanity, and Dune has become a fundamentally different place. Of course, also the theme that the Fremen aren't idealised. They're impressive, yes, because of how well they've adapted to an insanely hostile home where literally everything is trying to kill them. It's not a particularly pleasant life, with access to Spice implied to be one of the few things that makes it bearable. It's got the Tolkien vibes where war is hell, heroes usually gently caress things up or at best fix what the last hero hosed up, and the real best things in life are good food, good friends and a loving home.
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Jul 8, 2023 08:18
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Speaking of interesting weirdo conservatives Dan Carlin of Hardcore History said pretty much the same thing about the Mongols during his episodes about them. Usually takes one generation or so before they "soften" from their harder progenitors. Just some retro takes in your face.
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Jul 8, 2023 14:26
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We might have to wait longer for Part Two:The Guardian posted:
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Jul 22, 2023 11:34
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Jul 22, 2023 11:45
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“The Fremen were supreme in that quality the ancients called 'spannungsbogen' -- which is the self-imposed delay between desire for a thing and the act of reaching out to grasp that thing”
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Jul 22, 2023 14:56
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Good. gently caress CHOAM.
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Jul 22, 2023 16:44
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Jewmanji posted:“The Fremen were supreme in that quality the ancients called 'spannungsbogen' -- which is the self-imposed delay between desire for a thing and the act of reaching out to grasp that thing” What Frank is referring to is delayed gratification, aka. belohnungsaufschub. I suppose someone might argue that the meaning of the word changed in-universe, in the intervening time, but that's a bit of a stretch. It might also be said that the Fremen are great at staying in tension for an extended period of time and not breaking under that tension, given their in-universe history - but that's not how the word is used.
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Jul 22, 2023 17:27
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:That's not at all what that word means, though. It simply refers to the tension that is found in a bowstring when you string a bow. A Spannungsbogen in German also roughly describes a story arc, from when tension first arises to when it is resolved. That still means the quote got the word wrong.
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Jul 22, 2023 17:32
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:
Not to handwave everything away with this same argument, but to me seems pretty plausible that a word could change to mean a related concept over the course of like 10,000 years, that already happens in our extant languages on much shorter timescales
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Jul 22, 2023 17:38
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DTurtle posted:We might have to wait longer for Part Two: I guess technically we are already into a 1+ year delay for part 2, so a bit longer is no big deal. The actors deserve more than what they are getting, and that is more important than seeing this movie, as excited as I am for it.
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Jul 22, 2023 22:08
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It's not like we just had a massive pandemic that made going to the movies difficult and severely impacted production, release and quality of the movies. Waiting a year to support actors and writes? That feels like it's no time at all.
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Jul 22, 2023 23:06
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Or the studios could just give the actors and writers what they're asking for.
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Jul 22, 2023 23:08
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live with fruit posted:Or the studios could just give the actors and writers what they're asking for. *Cut to David Zaslav, slowly emerging from full submersion in a bathtub full of engine oil*: MY STUDIO
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Jul 23, 2023 07:11
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live with fruit posted:Or the studios could just give the actors and writers what they're asking for. Executives don't wanna, they would rather both groups go away and be replaced with AI.
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Jul 23, 2023 07:44
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Failed Imagineer posted:*Cut to David Zaslav, slowly emerging from full submersion in a bathtub full of engine oil*: MY STUDIO Lol
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Jul 23, 2023 10:30
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Delaying the movie has nothing to do with supporting the strike. It’s about waiting for the strike to blow over. If they wanted to support the unions they could pay people fairly and release the movie as planned.
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Jul 23, 2023 10:31
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I support unions and them showing solidarity and poo poo but it’s kinda hard to feel bad for actors “not getting enough” when you see them walking on the red carpet and all the other extravagances and lifestyle their job affords them.
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Jul 23, 2023 11:02
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Boris Galerkin posted:I support unions and them showing solidarity and poo poo but it’s kinda hard to feel bad for actors “not getting enough” when you see them walking on the red carpet and all the other extravagances and lifestyle their job affords them. The vast vast majority of people with a SAG card don't make poo poo. It's not about the red-carpet people, their fees and terms are negotiated by their agent. This is about minimums, and safe and humane work practices for the peons
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Jul 23, 2023 11:15
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Also about the studios not having indefinite and complete control over the likeness of the actors, in perpetuity.
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Jul 23, 2023 11:23
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The rank and file, even if they occasionally get to do a red carpet event with the big names, don't get paid anywhere near enough for the ridiculous working hours and travel schedules they pull.
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Jul 23, 2023 11:28
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Also about the studios not having indefinite and complete control over the likeness of the actors, in perpetuity. Yep most definitely. I reckon the use of AI for background actors is probably totally inevitable at this stage, but it remains to be seen if SAG can pull off a Butlerian Jihad against robots doing speaking parts for $0
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Jul 23, 2023 11:58
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Boris Galerkin posted:I support unions and them showing solidarity and poo poo but it’s kinda hard to feel bad for actors “not getting enough” when you see them walking on the red carpet and all the other extravagances and lifestyle their job affords them. Let me give you some advice: never, ever support the bosses. Whether it’s millionaire athletes or millionaire actors. It’s the athletes and actors that are creating value in the first place. And as others have already said, many of the A-listers have said they are using their visibility to stand up for random writers and actors who get paid dollars a day.
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Jul 23, 2023 14:20
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Chris Rock had it right in the sketch; LeBron James may be rich, but who's paying him all that money?
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Jul 23, 2023 15:05
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Bugblatter posted:Delaying the movie has nothing to do with supporting the strike. It’s about waiting for the strike to blow over. It does, after a fashion. SAG members can't promote a project on strike, which can effect it's performance, and in some cases their pay depending on contracts. It's not unreasonable to suspect that some of them at least may rather the project come out later, when it may enjoy a better and more profitable release
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Jul 23, 2023 15:15
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I know common belief is that it does, but does Timothee Chalamet going on Good Morning America to tell a story about how he got in trouble for stealing an apple pie from a neighbors window actually put butts in seats?
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Jul 23, 2023 15:24
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Boris Galerkin posted:I support unions and them showing solidarity and poo poo but it’s kinda hard to feel bad for actors “not getting enough” when you see them walking on the red carpet and all the other extravagances and lifestyle their job affords them. The number of big time actors that make a liveable wage on acting, is very tiny. Like 1% if even that. The average pay is like $30,000 a year. This strike is for those actors.
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Jul 23, 2023 16:06
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I know common belief is that it does, but does Timothee Chalamet going on Good Morning America to tell a story about how he got in trouble for stealing an apple pie from a neighbors window actually put butts in seats? it absolutely does
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Jul 23, 2023 19:01
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Advertising in general is about brand awareness. You make people aware that thing exists and is an option they can choose (and this is especially important for something like a movie that's expected to make almost all its revenue in a short period following release.) People need to know that Dune 2 is coming out, they can't not know, and you use every channel you can.
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Jul 23, 2023 19:14
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Failed Imagineer posted:I reckon the use of AI for background actors is probably totally inevitable at this stage, but it remains to be seen if SAG can pull off a Butlerian Jihad against robots doing speaking parts for $0 climate change, prescience as analogue for information/media saturation, increasing right-populist autocrats and AI; it can't be understated how drat on point Frank Herbert was about all this poo poo. breadshaped fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Jul 23, 2023 |
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Jul 23, 2023 20:25
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