|
For me, the Arclite (sc1) siege tank's animations give the feel of a crazy prototype nobody expected to be as effective as it turned out to be. Also the arms going out and anchoring to the ground when switching to siege mode have weight to them. Meanwhile the Crucio (sc2) feels like an iterative improvement on the former but it doesn't have the same "duct tape, spit and prayers" feeling and the switch to siege mode feels floatier.
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2023 09:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 20:18 |
|
|
So I was able to do a bit of a deep dive and get some answers on the Dragoon freezing bug: that fix was in fact reverted because it broke other things, not out of balance concerns. Which is typical of this game. People often ask things like "Well okay I get that the janky mechanics are part of what makes this game at the competitive level, but couldn't there be an option or mod or something that fixes the pathfinding and improves the UI and generally makes the game more accessible for more casual players?" And the answer is no - not out of some sort of elitist "purity of the game" nonsense but simply because the game's coding is such a janky mess held together with spit and prayer that it's kind of impossible to fix those things without completely rebuilding the game from the ground up. You know, you fix the Dragoon's pathfinding and whoops now all of a sudden Terran buildings can't fly anymore because some weird Band-Aid solution tied connected those two things together (that's not actually true AFAIK; it's just a fictional illustration of the jankiness). So I don't know this to be true, but it seems to me pretty safe to assume that probably in the development of StarCraft Remastered there were plans at one point to maybe have a more modern-friendly option that made all sorts of fixes and improvements to have the game be more accessible, but they found actually implementing that would just have been way more work than was feasible. I do know that the updated visuals were a struggle for them because everything had to match the original graphics, pixel for pixel, or it would break things (and also be incompatible with people playing with the OG graphics, which they also wanted to avoid).
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2023 15:24
|
|
|
I suppose if you want a version of Starcraft 1 that's got all the modern bells and whistles, Mass Recall exists anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2023 17:05
|
|
|
Tenebrais posted:I suppose if you want a version of Starcraft 1 that's got all the modern bells and whistles, Mass Recall exists anyway. You just have to accept that it is much, much harder than SC1
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2023 17:22
|
|
|
Szarrukin posted:You just have to accept that it is much, much harder than SC1 Yes, although the lowest difficulty is still not terribly challenging so you should at least be able to get through the game at pretty much any skill level.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2023 17:45
|
|
|
I still remember when I got to the mission where you unlock dropships and discovered they turned the enemy island into spider mine hell.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2023 17:47
|
|
|
SCR kinda already messed with the MP meta because they were able to fix a bug with an expansion unit, making it actually quite viable in several match ups. Not sure what the notes were on how they were able to fix that and not have it foul up other things, but here we are
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2023 17:56
|
|
|
Aces High posted:SCR kinda already messed with the MP meta because they were able to fix a bug with an expansion unit, making it actually quite viable in several match ups. IIRC this bug was due to the hard-coded sprite limit of the original engine, after which projectiles would simply stop spawning. Said unit uses a large number of sprites in its attack and so would bump up against this limit incredibly quickly in lategame with a lot of units on the field. Remastered raised the sprite limit and the bug is no longer a problem.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2023 18:05
|
|
|
Tenebrais posted:Yes, although the lowest difficulty is still not terribly challenging so you should at least be able to get through the game at pretty much any skill level. That's my problem with MR. I agree that the campaigns of SC1 aren't terribly demanding and that the skirmish AI is weak, but MR as the issue where the easy difficulty is a piece of piss but normal is going to come as an unwelcome surprise spike in challenge to many.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2023 19:09
|
|
|
Tenebrais posted:Yes, although the lowest difficulty is still not terribly challenging so you should at least be able to get through the game at pretty much any skill level. I've played Mass Recall very recently as a result of these threads, and I share the opinion that Easy difficulty is roughly what the game difficulty of SC1 is. It can occasionally be tough but it's much, much less stressful than Normal. Heck, if someone wants an 'authentic' experience I'd go ahead and just recommend flipping on Easy.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2023 19:12
|
|
|
The main thing to remember is that the Mass Recall devs deliberately upped the difficulty as a sort of compensation for all the Quality of Life, UI, and general engine improvements otherwise making the game infinitely easier. It's been a while since I played, but I usually played on normal, so I can't really comment on how it compares, personally, but I'll trust the general consensus.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2023 19:41
|
|
|
BlazetheInferno posted:The main thing to remember is that the Mass Recall devs deliberately upped the difficulty as a sort of compensation for all the Quality of Life, UI, and general engine improvements otherwise making the game infinitely easier. It's been a while since I played, but I usually played on normal, so I can't really comment on how it compares, personally, but I'll trust the general consensus. That is true especially when it comes to Zerg, being able to have more than 12 units under hotkey is gamechanger for them. Basically every problem in Zerg campaign can be answered with "more mutas"
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 02:01
|
|
|
I just want MR to have five difficulty settings, like a steak has five levels of cooked-ness: Rare (easy as it currently is), medium-rare (halfway between easy and normal), medium (normal as it is now), medium well (between normal and hard) and well done (hard is it exists). I really want to like MR, but easy gives no satisfaction and normal is stressful, un-fun, and I keep losing without realising what I am doing wrong. It's stressful as hell to scramble all over trying to build units and defences as quickly as possible and still get stomped by an AI that doesn't have my lovely human limitations, such as hands for example.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 02:38
|
|
|
Early post, whoops.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 21:16
|
|
|
Protoss 3: Higher Ground  Executor, I bring news most dire. The Cerebrate that we thought we had killed has arisen again. How can this be? The creature's battered form was reincarnated, despite the considerable damage we inflicted upon it. Even now, the Cerebrate drives its Brood in preparation for their next offensive. It is as I feared. It was folly to believe Tassadar could be trusted. The Conclave will not soon forget his wanton betrayal. Nevertheless, we must stand resolute. For attacking defenseless Cerebrates is not the way of true Protoss warriors! We shall overcome the entire Swarm with the might and the fury that is our heritage! Executor, we shall lead our main strike force to the province of Scion which has fallen to the Zerg. It's time the Zerg felt the wrath of the sons of Aiur! Praetor Fenix will remain here with a small detachment and guard Antioch from further assaults. Adun be with you, Executor. Bring swift death to the enemies of Aiur.A couple of notes here. First, I keep forgetting to mention that Fenix's voice is awesome. He sounds like an Orc. He is voiced by one of Blizzard's execs, Bill Roper, who did the Orc voices (and quite a few Alliance voices) in the Warcraft games, so it makes sense, but he also voices things like the Vulture and Goliath, so it's not his only voice. His Fenix voice just sounds very similar to his Orc voice and it's great. Second, when reading Aldaris's lines, it's important to note that he's not actually a member of the Conclave himself, he's just the Judicator serving as liaison between the Conclave and the Executor. So his whole "The Conclave will not be pleased" shtick has much more of an "I'm telling the teacher!" vibe than you might first think. Anyway, having played through the Zerg campaign, Gorn getting reincarnated isn't a surprise for us, but it sure is a wild curveball for poor Artanis and his buddies. Better get on with it, then. Here's our start:  Economically all we've got is a Nexus and some Pylons, but militarily we've brought a respectable standing force with us, including our new unit for the mission:  It's the Scout! It's our first Protoss air unit. It's the Protoss answer to the Wraith: a powerful air to air fighter with a pitiful ground attack that's early-ish on the tech tree. It's not able to cloak, but in exchange it's enormously tanky at 250 total Shields and HP. We send them out to live up to their namesake:  Where they spot some Zerglings en route to our base. No problem, right?  Well, the Lings are a bit too speedy for our Scouts to deal with, so they end up making it to our base, where they meet a very quick and painful end:  We've seen a few units that are pretty niche: Firebats, for example. They exist for one purpose and that's roasting Zerglings. However, that's an important purpose and it's one they excel at, so I wouldn't ever say the Firebat is a bad unit. The Scout, on the other hand, is just plain awful, and we'll be peeling back the layers on that as we go through this mission. The first piece of that we saw here: they're real slow. Scouts do get a speed upgrade, but sadly we won't see it for another five (!) missions, and even then it only brings the Scout up to parity with the Wraith and Mutalisk. What, I ask you, is the point of an air superiority fighter that needs an upgrade just to keep up with other air units? In this case, it's the reason why they weren't able to snipe those Zerglings. Our base also gets hit by a Hydra:   Not the world's most exciting attack, but note the colour - the Zerglings were red, belonging to Daggoth's brood, but this Hydra was white, belonging to Gorn's brood. So we're facing two opponents, which means we'll have to destroy two bases. We send our ground forces out to do some exploring instead, and…    They found the ramp! With our enemy's avenue of ingress discovered, we can set about fortifying it.     These missions so far have been real generous about giving us the high ground, which makes defense easier. An Overlord drifts by and stumbles into our Scout patrol:     Boom. Scouts do have one thing going for them, and that's almost unmatched air-to-air damage output. Unfortunately, that can be hard to put into practice - I've complained about their disappointing speed already, but to add insult to injury they also have less range than the Wraith, meaning not only do they get where they're going slower, they also have further to go. In this case, that Overlord nearly escaped. Anyway, we've also been teching up:   The Cybernetics Core, in addition to allowing Dragoons and their upgrade, also gives us access to our advanced buildings, of which we get two in this mission. First, the Stargate:   As the name suggests, it's the Protoss equivalent of the Starport. It's an immense rift generator, capable of handling the huge amount of energy needed to warp in starships. It's also the source of our new unit. And here's where we see the real problem with the Scout:  I could live with having to wait for a speed upgrade, and their relatively short range, while a pain, is manageable. But at 275 Minerals, 125 Vespene, and 3 supply, Scouts are seriously overpriced for what you get. The other side of this coin is the build time. I haven't touched on unit build times at all, not even in the spotlights, because for the most part they're exactly what you'd expect. Low tech, low cost units like Marines and Zerglings build fast, mid-tech units like Siege Tanks and Mutas take a bit longer, high-tech units like Science Vessels and Ultras you're waiting around for a bit, and ultra-expensive units like the Battlecruiser take forever. That's all pretty straightforward. To account for the individual power and durability of their units, Protoss tends to take a bit longer. Zealots and Dragoons take about as long to build as a Siege Tank or Goliath, for example. This, too, seems logical. Scouts, on the other hand, have the same build time as a Science Vessel. To put that into perspective, Zerg could morph a larva into a Mutalisk then morph that Mutalisk into a Guardian in the same time that it takes Protoss to warp in a Scout. So you're not just overpaying for a mediocre unit, you're waiting way longer than you should have to in order to get it out there. All of this together means that Scouts really aren't a terribly attractive option. That being said, we'll still be seeing them a fair bit. Partially because we'll have missions where we need air presence and we won't have unlocked any other options, sure. But also partially because we're gonna be easing into their niche. See, their mediocre range and reliance upon a speed upgrade make Scouts considerably worse than Wraiths when it comes to things like sniping transports or flying spellcasters, but the Scout's truly impressive damage out means that it excels at swatting slow, powerful ships like Battlecruisers and Carriers out of the skies. So we will be mixing this unit into our arsenal. But I'm never going to be excited about it. It will never be an "Oh awesome we get to use Scouts!" moment. While we've been pondering the merits (or lack thereof) of Scouts, Daggoth has not been sitting idle:  The angle of their attack seems to indicate that there's another ramp to the north, and sure enough, there is. We fortify that one as well:   By the way, strictly speaking, I'm going a bit overboard on the defenses. Just having a few Zealots and Dragoons at each ramp would be sufficient. The downside to Protoss' convenient static defense capabilities is that it's easy to end up overbuilding and spending way too much income on them, especially because they need to be replaced semi-frequently. Fortunately this is the campaign, and an early mission at that, so being inefficient with our minerals isn't really worth worrying about. Still, it's good to note. Interesting. Our Scouts are firing.  What are they shooting at?  Oh, some Mutas. That's okay. Scouts may do explosive damage, but it's still enough to make quick work of a Muta or two. Speaking of which, I never actually mentioned their attack, did I? Their air attack does 28 explosive damage at a pretty steady clip. Their ground attack is a laughable 8 normal damage at a noticeably slower speed. So, you know, they don't want to tangle with too many Mutas, because a pack of them taking that 50% damage reduction from being small can just delete Scouts. But in small numbers like this? Easy.  …that is not so easy.  The Scouts retreat to the safety of the cannons, but it looks like the Hydras have another destination in mind. All the better, since Scouts are one of the worst units possible to send against Hydras, whereas Zealots and Dragoons?   …they fare significantly better. I couldn't even get a shot of the battle's conclusion because I had to scroll away to take care of something and they killed everything too quickly. However, once again, the angle of attack indicates that there's another ramp we've missed. Our Scouts go take a peek and sure enough…  There's an expansion there, too, if we need it. We go to block the ramp:  But…  Don't worry, they aren't evidence of a fourth ramp, they were just buried at the expansion spot. Three Scouts can handle a couple Hydras.  Or not. Classic Scout.  As our ships make a not-so-hasty retreat, you can see the one Hydra on the right in the middle of submerging back into the ground. Neat.   Where Scouts fail, Zealots prevail. Oh, which reminds me. I said we've unlocked two advanced structures. This one is considerably less disappointing than the last.   It's the Citadel of Adun, a mighty floating edifice named after the Protoss hero where members of the Templar caste are welcome to practice combat with one another and spend time in quiet meditation, seeking the depths of the Khala. It's a little funny that I say it's less disappointing because the Citadel is the pinnacle of a Lame Tech Building - it has only two purposes: it's a gateway to another building (that we can't get yet), and it gives us one single upgrade. But what an upgrade that is.  Leg Enhancements, giving a big speed boost to our Zealots and turning them from kind of okay meatshields into mighty titans of the front lines. Like Zerg 03 giving us Overlord upgrades, in a way this feels like a new unit. Zealots are now able to close on enemy ranged units with lightning speed. It also means that they're now faster than Dragoons, making it easier to keep your units in formation instead of having your ranged units out ahead of your melee line. Funnily enough, the wicked fast Zealots with their speed upgrade are only a little bit faster than Scouts without their speed upgrade, but air superiority fighters are held to different standards than ground units. You know what, while we're on the topic of tech, let's take a closer look at the Cybernetics Core:  The reason the Dragoon's Singularity Charge was on the far right of the interface (missing in this shot, as it's already been researched) was because the Core is also where we research our armour and weapon upgrades for our air units. Unlocking Dragoons, upgrading Dragoons, unlocking advanced buildings, upgrading air units... it's a busy building.    How our cannon emplacements are holding up. Just in case you were wondering. Anyway. With our upgrades researched, our defenses holding, and a stack each of Zealots and Dragoons, it's time to bring the fight to the enemy.  Mighty Templar, as you go forth to cleanse our world of these enemies of all life, remember that you do not go alone! You carry the strength of our people! The Khala is your sword, Aiur itself your shield!Come on, Artanis, tone it down already.                  ...or maybe don't. What do I know. Our forces did go through that base like a knife through butter, after all. Dragoons were already a mighty force, and now with Speedlots added in the mix our ground army is virtually unstoppable. Of course, it also helped that the enemy wasn't prepared for us defensively. Notice anything in that big screenshot dump of base-razing goodness? Lots of Scourge, lots of Spore Colonies. This was a base ready to face an air assault. Also note that despite only having a Lair, they also had a Greater Spire. Neat. I wonder if this means they'll eventually start morphing Guardians if the mission goes on long enough? That'd be kind of cool, actually - killing Guardians is one area where Scouts really, truly shine. How goes the battle, Executor? One of the Zerg Broods has already been driven back. We have only one other foe to vanquish before Scion is liberated. Alas that I could not take part in such glorious battle. Sadly the Zerg in Antioch have sent only a few probing attacks. Would that I, too, had so many foes to test my mettle against. Worry not, brave Fenix. I fear we will have no shortage of worthy struggles in the coming days. What of the Cerebrate? Is there any change at all? None. It is as it was before we slew it. I do not understand, Executor. The evidence that Tassadar's advice was folly is incontrovertible, yet I cannot bring myself to believe that he would seek to lead us astray. He has been acting odd, of late. Perhaps Aldaris is correct and he has been twisted by the Shadow Hunters. I sought to question him about what happened to the Cerebrate, but I could not reach him in the Khala. He is there, I can sense him, but he is closed off. Perhaps. I do not doubt that he has changed, but I question whether there is any force mighty enough to overcome Tassadar's devotion to Aiur. I do not believe that his advice to slay the Cerebrate was offered out of anything but a desire to save our world. Yet his advice was in error. Bah! Enough of this. I am going around in circles. Some more Zerg have appeared to test our perimeter defences. I go now to give them a firsthand lesson in the fury of the Templar, and leave these musings for another day. En Taro Adun, Executor! Fight well, mighty Fenix.Speaking of testing perimeter defences, our Scouts are taking a look at Daggoth's base:     Lots and lots of Sunken Colonies. See, the general conceit of this mission is that white's base is full of anti-air defence but has little in the way of anti-ground. Similarly, red's base has a ton of anti-ground but less anti-air. The intention being that you use a force of Zealots and Dragoons to crush white and a wing of Scouts to snuff out red. The problem, though, is that the amount of Scouts you need to handle even red's relatively meagre anti-air defences is generally a lot less cost-effective than the amount of Zealots and Dragoons you need to just eat and blast through the ample ground defences. So we assemble our force:  A few Scouts, to be sure, but mostly ground units. Let's burn this mother.                Boom! It'll take a lot more Sunkens than that to match the might of Speedlots and Dragoons. Executor! Antioch is under attack by overwhelming Zerg forces! Praetor, you must hold your position for as long as possible. Fight on, brave Fenix. And know that the gods watch over you. En Taro Adun! And now, a cutscene.      We open on a scorching desert vista - despite the fact that Aiur is a jungle world. This is likely because the cinematics were one of the first things made for the game, before most of the lore and story were settled, but I choose to believe that it's instead because Blizzard rejected that baffling scifi trope of "planets only having one biome." Aiur can be predominantly jungle and still have deserts. Anyway. We pull back...      ...revealing that the desert is being survey by a Protoss warrior - Fenix, as indicated by the opening. Those long strands of things sticking out the back of his head isn't hair, by the way, but rather "nerve cords," the appendages that are the source of the Protoss' natural psionic abilities and the basis upon which the Khala was built. As mentioned in the thread, Dark Templar ritually sever these out of disdain for the Khala, but I'm getting ahead of myself.    Fenix turns, and goes to patrol the temple grounds.    We, however, spot something that he does not:       Fenix stops...   ...hears something and turns, finding...  A Hydralisk.     Fenix readies his psi-blades as the Hydralisk pounces...      ...but his power suit fails, and his blades are extinguished. We fade to black... Welp. Also, I enjoy that cutscene a lot. The whole "Trail of lingering, dripping goo hinting that the Hydra slunk down the wall" really nails the shlocky B-movie scifi horror vibe that this game does so well. I also like how much more reptilian the Protoss look in this game compared to the way they look now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 22:01
|
|
|
I never understood why his blades went off (ran out of battery?), or why there are what seem like human skulls lying around.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 22:52
|
|
|
Scouts are kind of beautiful in how totally garbage they are
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 22:58
|
|
|
GunnerJ posted:I never understood why his blades went off (ran out of battery?), or why there are what seem like human skulls lying around. There has never been an explanation for it. Mass Recall team made a joke in one of the tooltips related to his unit about his equipment being on the fritz lately and how he's scheduled an appointment with Phasesmith Karax once his duties in Antioch are over. Heroes of the Storm!Fenix made a joke about it too, making it sound like erectile dysfunction. "I- I swear, this never happened before!"
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 23:03
|
|
|
It would have been much cooler to have Fenix cut through a dozen hydralisks before finally being overwhelmed. Much harder to animate though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 23:06
|
|
|
If I had to jam an explanation in, it'd probably be that the Overmind's presence on Aiur is loving with things somehow - especially since it's already been exploiting the properties of the psi-active khaydarin crystals to help make itself manifest. But, there's nothing else similar happening that'd support that idea. Simply that most other explanations I can come up with are themselves unsupported elsewhere. For a long time I wondered if it was supposed to be a sign of some kind of treachery, that his weapons were sabotaged and then Aldaris or someone allowed some zerg to slip through. Maybe because Fenix believed in Tassadar, despite the Conclave being set on throwing Tass to the wolves? It could simply be Fenix failing to manifest the blades in the moment, or a mechanical fault. That'd be the simplest explanation. And it only has to happen the once, with how often he throws himself into danger. But there's something unsatisfying about that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 23:15
|
|
|
GunnerJ posted:I never understood why his blades went off (ran out of battery?), or why there are what seem like human skulls lying around. I think it's supposed to be a technical failure. Zealot blades are powered by the will of the Templar wielding them, so it could also be interpreted as him giving in to despair and therefore being unable to power his blades, but that just doesn't really fit who Fenix is? Like he just doesn't seem to have room in his mind for thoughts like "Is this the end" or "It's not worth fighting." It also seems to be a technical failure based on the fact that his suit doesn't warp him back when he sustains grievous injury the way Zealot power suits are supposed to. In fact, when he comes back as a Dragoon, he says that Templar had to go out to Antioch and physically retrieve his broken body, which really seems to suggest that the suit just wasn't working. Maybe it got damaged in the fighting, maybe last time he got it checked out for repairs it was some apprentice Khalai at the Forge who just quickly looked at it, said "Eh, good enough" and knocked off early for the weekend. Well, I mean, the actual truth of the matter is that the cinematic is from early in the game's dev cycle and was probably just supposed to be a cool cutscene of a generic Zealot standing down a Hydralisk and then they said "Hey you know what maybe we should take that cutscene and have it represent, like, the Zerg overwhelming Fenix at Antioch or something." Which is also the reason for the human skulls (IIRC early drafts of the story had it much more focused on a Terran-Protoss war, with the Zerg emerging as an outside player).
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 23:19
|
|
|
I read one excuse that he had been fighting for so long that he was too exhausted to maintain the blades.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 23:26
|
|
|
I'd always just assumed it was the aftermath of the battle against "overwhelming Zerg forces." All the Protoss except Fenix have been cut down, and his weapons are spent. His slow walk through the temple and lack of enthusiasm to fight the Hydralisk shows that he's resigned to his fate.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 23:29
|
|
|
RevolverDivider posted:Scouts are kind of beautiful in how totally garbage they are Yeah it's really honestly quite impressive how many aspects of "basic functionality" they miss the mark on. And it's a thing no one's ever touched because while the Scout is underpowered, Protoss isn't underpowered, so to bring the Scout up to par you're giving Protoss a big edge, unless you similarly weaken something else, and then you're causing all sorts of unintended balance ripples. So the Scout just sits on the shelf gathering dust. In multiplayer, at least. At least here we'll actually get to use it a bit.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 00:02
|
|
|
Seeing a Scout in competitive play is so rare that commentators get hyped up seeing one and wondering what it's going to be used for.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 00:15
|
|
|
Young Night used Scouts a lot just because I thought their gunfire looked cool. Young Night was not good at Starcraft.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 01:54
|
|
|
Their gunfire is cool though to be fair.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 01:55
|
|
|
I'm just glad that one of the SC2 co-op commanders finally gave Scouts their due as a key unit on some maps.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 01:57
|
|
|
now that we've seen and used all the defensive buildings, would you be willing to do a post on if/how each of them is used in multiplayer? loving how your spotlights go into detail on mp btw. i've always played single player, and never watched competitive starcraft
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 02:05
|
|
|
Scouts in the campaign have their uses. Partly because you're often give some for free, partly because the campaign AI loves big capital ships, and partly because Corsairs don't exist until BW. But even with these circumstances in their favor, they still feel clearly underpowered.JohnKilltrane posted:Yeah it's really honestly quite impressive how many aspects of "basic functionality" they miss the mark on. And it's a thing no one's ever touched because while the Scout is underpowered, Protoss isn't underpowered, so to bring the Scout up to par you're giving Protoss a big edge, unless you similarly weaken something else, and then you're causing all sorts of unintended balance ripples. I wonder how much Scouts would be helped if they weren't so expensive and slow to build. Their other shortcomings would still exist, but if you could crank them out in higher numbers, maybe they'd be able to find a niche as a unit that you can mass to build an anti-air murderball or do some worker harassment? Wouldn't really fit with the Protoss "few powerful units" ethos though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 03:48
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:Young Night used Scouts a lot just because I thought their gunfire looked cool. Same. I thought 'They have tons of HP and can attack both ground and air units... they must be great'! I did notice that they were awfully slow, though, for something called 'a scout'. It bothers me, but given that SC's balance (such as it is) is such a house of cards, I guess they're just hosed. What is the usual Protoss response to major air incursions? To give both both ends of the spectrum, what would be a response to a bunch of mutalisks (small, quick, fairly fragile units) versus a clutch of battlecruisers (big, slow, tough)? Mass dragoons, a few psi storms, a bunch of corsairs? I've always found it funny that scouts were in vanilla SC1. They were supposed to be a flying, anti-air unit but they sucked at their role. So, instead of making them useful, they put corsairs into Brood War and pissed on scouts even more. JustJeff88 fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Jul 28, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 04:10
|
|
|
It's interesting that "we can't fix certain things or it will break the overall game balance" is such a guiding principle in SC1 multiplayer, because SC2 multiplayer just does not work like that at all. The devs regularly tweak the game, sometimes changing up unit rosters, and that results in every patch developing a new meta. This isn't necessarily bad, but it's just so different from the approach to SC1.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 12:11
|
|
|
redleader posted:now that we've seen and used all the defensive buildings, would you be willing to do a post on if/how each of them is used in multiplayer? That's a great idea! The way static defense works in competitive play is so interesting to me and a spotlight post honing in on that would be cool. Thanks! JustJeff88 posted:What is the usual Protoss response to major air incursions? To give both both ends of the spectrum, what would be a response to a bunch of mutalisks (small, quick, fairly fragile units) versus a clutch of battlecruisers (big, slow, tough)? Mass dragoons, a few psi storms, a bunch of corsairs? I've always found it funny that scouts were in vanilla SC1. They were supposed to be a flying, anti-air unit but they sucked at their role. So, instead of making them useful, they put corsairs into Brood War and pissed on scouts even more. Depends. When it comes to Mutas, the Corsair and Templar have a sword/shield situation going on, similar to Wraiths and Goliaths for Terran. You use the former if you want to seek and destroy the Muta clump, the latter if you just want to discourage it or hold it at bay. Vs a bunch of Battlecruisers, that's where Scouts shine. You wouldn't want to use Corsairs there, because they do rapid-fire low damage, kind of like Sky Zerglings, and as a result a lot of their damage output is negated by the BC's high armour. Scouts, on the other hand, do better there. However, as a general rule, even then Protoss has better options. Arbiters dropping a Stasis Field to cut the BCs in half, large numbers of Dragoons dealing out serious punishment from the ground, and BCs are one instance where Protoss really likes to bring the Dark Archon out to play, using Mind Control to level the field even further. High Templar are great here too: BCs have the HP to survive several storms, but the point of storming them isn't to kill them but instead to rapidly eat through 25% of their health to make the Dragoon's job easier. And in theory none of this necessarily negates Scouts, because you'd still have instances of wanting to directly seek out and engage the cruisers in the sky, but in practice it kind of does negate them simply because Protoss' bevy of options means that Terran is generally reluctant to get Battlecruisers in the first place. BCs are a great unit in TvT and TvZ but quite rare in TvP.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 12:35
|
|
|
The biggest argument against the Scout is as follows: Protoss have lightsaber dudes, cyborg spiders, plasma beings, mega-carriers...and you expect me to shill out for a normal-rear end looking plane?
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 12:44
|
|
|
GunnerJ posted:It's interesting that "we can't fix certain things or it will break the overall game balance" is such a guiding principle in SC1 multiplayer, because SC2 multiplayer just does not work like that at all. The devs regularly tweak the game, sometimes changing up unit rosters, and that results in every patch developing a new meta. This isn't necessarily bad, but it's just so different from the approach to SC1. Well, Starcraft 1 built up its e-sports meta over years without any input from Blizzard, and was the first game to go properly mainstream that way. Maybe they could rebalance everything in a reasonably satisfying way, but they'd be risking killing the golden goose (I don't think Blizzard actually made any money off the Korean pro scene but it's still a huge reputational boon, not to mention a point of company pride for anyone who might still feel that). You'd be risking pissing off the whole audience sticking your oar in to change things about a game that has until then maintained its own balance through the meta. Starcraft 2, on the other hand, has been actively patched from the start and its pro scene has had Blizzard directly engaged. For it, "sticking their oar in" doesn't really hurt when they were steering the ship to begin with. And there's no mythology about Starcraft 2 being a perfectly balanced masterpiece to ruin either.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 12:54
|
|
|
Wasn't there a thing where kespa was using spawn copies for their lan tournaments?
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 14:07
|
|
|
Tenebrais posted:Well, Starcraft 1 built up its e-sports meta over years without any input from Blizzard, and was the first game to go properly mainstream that way. Maybe they could rebalance everything in a reasonably satisfying way, but they'd be risking killing the golden goose (I don't think Blizzard actually made any money off the Korean pro scene but it's still a huge reputational boon, not to mention a point of company pride for anyone who might still feel that). You'd be risking pissing off the whole audience sticking your oar in to change things about a game that has until then maintained its own balance through the meta. This makes a lot of sense.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 14:27
|
|
|
Tenebrais posted:Well, Starcraft 1 built up its e-sports meta over years without any input from Blizzard, and was the first game to go properly mainstream that way. Maybe they could rebalance everything in a reasonably satisfying way, but they'd be risking killing the golden goose (I don't think Blizzard actually made any money off the Korean pro scene but it's still a huge reputational boon, not to mention a point of company pride for anyone who might still feel that). You'd be risking pissing off the whole audience sticking your oar in to change things about a game that has until then maintained its own balance through the meta.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 19:50
|
|
|
Unit Spotlight: Zealot The Zealot is the representative unit for Protoss on the campaign selection screen. Cost: 100 minerals, 2 supply HP: 100 Shields: 60 Armour: 1 (+1) Size: Small Damage: 16 Normal (+2) DPS: 17.3 (+2.1) Range: Melee Speed: 4 (+2) Sight: 7 Requirements: Gateway Special: Double Attack The Protoss' most basic unit, the Zealot, is still among the most durable in the game. I don't think anything offers close to this level of resources:HP+Shields ratio. The Zealot's ratio of resources:damage can't match either of its counterparts, the Marine or Zergling, but compensates for that with its staying power: a single Zealot doesn't do quite as much damage as two Marines, but it'll stay in the game to do that damage a lot longer. Zealots form the backbone of the Protoss army, and like Dragoons are pretty ubiquitous in both campaign and competitive. They're perfect at holding the front line while the Dragoons dish out free hits, and they excel at getting up close and personal with some of the deadlier threats to Dragoons. It's notable for being one of four units to have a double attack, in actuality doing two simultaneous attacks at 8 damage rather than one at 16 damage (each of its blades are a unique attack). This is definitely the most important instance of this gameplay quirk, for reasons we'll get into below. Speaking of things we’ll get into below, as seen the Zealot also has access to an upgrade, Leg Enhancements, which for 150 of each resource pumps their speed up from four to six. This is a crucial upgrade that you should never leave home without, but it also throws a bit of a curveball and ends up, in a way, being the defining aspect of the Zealot. More on that in the competitive play section.  The Zealot as seen in the manual. For some reason this pose always made me think it looks like a soccer player. Something about it just gives off vibes of "I've got my shinguards on and I'm ready to take the free kick." Am I crazy? Fluff: “Zealot” is the generic term for any member of the Templar caste that has yet to achieve the higher levels of the Khala. While they strive for higher enlightenment, they serve as the front line of the Protoss army, wading fearlessly into battle in their power suits and working themselves into what the manual calls “a near-beserker rage.” These power suits include two wrist-mounts through which the Zealot can focus their willpower into a blade of pure psionic energy. With these psi-blades, the Zealot can easily tear through any who would threaten the sanctity of Aiur. Of course, should their will faiter, so will their blades - and as mentioned that’s one possible explanation for what happened to Fenix in that last update. Speaking of Fenix, his status as Praetor - which seems to be roughly equivalent to General - despite being a Zealot seems to suggest that reaching the higher ranks of the Khala is not necessary for career progression. Or maybe Fenix has reached the higher ranks of the Khala but just prefers throwing down in the front lines with his psi-blades. Unlike Marines and Firebats, the Zealot power suits don’t seem to have any sort of life-support capabilities; it seems that either the Protoss are physiologically a lot more resilient than Terrans, or they’re able to leverage their psychic abilities to somehow help survive hostile atmospheres. Or, let’s face it, probably both. As seen in the last Spotlight, their power suit also comes with a built-in emergency rift device that can recall the Zealot once it takes critical damage, possibly allowing future service as a Dragoon. Tech Fluff: The Zealot’s power suits can be upgraded with cybernetic boosters. These Leg Enhancements significantly increase the speed at which the power suit is able to travel.  The Protoss victory screen features a Zealot... kinda just standing there, I guess. This is the original as I think it looks slightly better than the Remastered. Campaign Usage: Yes. Every mission. Zealots are tanky, they deal out lots of damage, and they’re easily mass-produced. Get used to seeing them because they’re wonderful units that will form the core of any Protoss ground force. Competitive Usage: This is where Zealots are weird. Again, the answer is yes. Against Terran and Zerg you will always build Zealots, and against Protoss you’ll often build them. What makes them weird, though, is the extra-large gap between the Zealot becoming available and the Leg Enhancements upgrade, because Zealots without that upgrade are pretty not great. So Zealots follow this weird curve where despite being at the bottom of the tech-tree they’re actually a mid-game unit. You might produce one or two to do some harassing, but then you’ll switch over entirely to Dragoons and probably won’t start producing Zealots in earnest for quite a bit. “I mean, okay, you need a Cybernetics Core, but you need that anyway for Dragoons, and then you just need the Citadel of Adun and then you can research the upgrade. Surely that’s not all that bad?” you might be thinking. But the trick isn’t getting the Citadel and Leg Enhancements - the trick is getting those things without slowing Dragoon production. That’s what pushes back the Zealots to the midgame. Vs. Terran: Essential unit in this matchup. This is where it’s most common to get a couple of Zealots early game for harassment - and if you remember the Marine Spotlight (it’s been like three years I don’t blame you if you don’t), defending against this harassment is the main use for Marines in this matchup. Without Leg Enhancements, Zealots are easy pickings for Marines - however, this requires a fair bit of micro on the Terran player’s part. In a straight-up fight, the Zealots will easily win. It’s when the Marines use their range to kite the Zealots that the Marines win. But here’s the thing: Zealots have truckloads of HP. So sometimes Zealots won’t even bother to engage the Marines, they’ll just eat the damage while they try to pick off SCVs. Mid-game, though, is where Zealots really shine. They’re the perfect complement to Dragoons. Dragoons pick off Spider Mines and handle Vultures, and Zealots charge in to dismantle Siege Tanks. This is another common use of cloning, and one I believe I mentioned in that post - use cloning to quickly distribute your Zealots amidst a Terran tank line and bait them into blowing themselves up. Zealots handle the tanks and Dragoons take care of just about everything else.  Light's tank line is scary for Best's Dragoons to deal with, but fortunately the Dragoons aren't alone.    The Zealots carry the day. Vs. Zerg: Zealots are extra weird in this matchup because upgrades are so important. Zealot does 16 damage, Zergling has 35 HP. So it takes three hits for a Zealot to kill a Zergling, with a lot of damage left over. But when Protoss hits +1 Ground Weapons, now the Zealot does 18 damage, killing the Zergling in two hits with almost no damage left over. This makes a huge difference. But then Zerg gets +1 Carapace and the Zerglings now have 1 armour. No problem - 36 - 1 is 35 and still able to two-shot the Zergling, right? Except Zealots have a double attack, which means armour gets applied twice so they’re actually only doing 34 damage. Whoops. Back to three hits. So Zealots are strong in this matchup. They do great against Hydras and do well against Zerglings, but only if Protoss has the upgrade advantage, giving Zerglings and Zealots a kind of mutual-counter situation going on similar to Marines and Mutas. Still, in this matchup the role of the Zealot is often just to be a meat shield - it’s there to tank hits so that Dragoons can do damage, and is especially handy for tying up Zerg units so that Protoss can get off some brutal Psi Storms - which do friendly fire, sure, but the Zealots are tough enough to survive it. This is particularly effective with Zerg’s ground siege unit, a unit we won’t see until the expansion, because while it absolutely shreds groups of Zealots, doing so typically positions in a way that makes them very vulnerable to Psi Storm. Late game is not an easy time to be a Zealot. As seen in Zerg 10, they’re solid units to send under a Dark Swarm, which can lead to even more brutal applications of that Psi Storm combo. However, in between Zerglings getting Adrenal Glands and Ultras with their already huge armour getting doubled vs Zealots, Protoss may want to ease off on these a bit and look to other options. It is worth noting, though, that even before Legs come online, Zealots are important here. Zerg are greedy, gluttonous little piggies that love to just rex all over the map, so Protoss really wants to put the pressure on and try to force Zerg to focus on their defenses rather than spamming bases and macroing their way to victory. Now ordinarily if you're Protoss, your tool for early pressure outside of an initial Zealot or two is Dragoons, but if you remember last spotlight, Dragoons don't do great against Zerglings. Small targets, faster speed, vicious little melee damage - not a good scene. Enter the Zealot. Pressuring and punishing greedy Zerg is their speciality, with or without Leg Enhancements.  EPIC! Bisu 🇰&%23127479; (P) vs Larva &%23127472;&%23127479; (Z) on Blockchain - StarCraft - Brood War - YouTube - 0-2-50.jpeg) This Bisu vs. Larva match shows us some pretty standard Zealot harassment. Larva's moved to take his first expansion there, but Bisu's Zealot is having none of it.  EPIC! Bisu 🇰&%23127479; (P) vs Larva &%23127472;&%23127479; (Z) on Blockchain - StarCraft - Brood War - YouTube - 0-3-08.jpeg) Another Zealot enters the fray...  EPIC! Bisu 🇰&%23127479; (P) vs Larva &%23127472;&%23127479; (Z) on Blockchain - StarCraft - Brood War - YouTube - 0-3-16.jpeg) ...and a third one really starts to put the thumbscrews to Larva's dreams of economic growth.  EPIC! Bisu 🇰&%23127479; (P) vs Larva &%23127472;&%23127479; (Z) on Blockchain - StarCraft - Brood War - YouTube - 0-3-37.jpeg) The bloody aftermath of Larva's attempt to fend this off with Zerglings. Larva will eventually quash this attack, but it's set his opening back considerably. Vs. Protoss: Not quite as common in this matchup, simply because without Leg Enhancements Zealots get kited very easily by Dragoons and you’ll normally have other research priorities than beelining Leg Enhancements. Nonetheless you will still see quite a bit of them as a supplementary force to Dragoons - on their own Zealots won’t do much here, but if your Dragoons can force an engagement with the enemy’s Dragoons, it can provide an opportunity for your Zealots to close the distance and do big damage, all the while taking only half damage from the Dragoon’s explosive attacks. (Well, not really, because they still take full damage while their shields are up, yadda yadda, it’s still a big help).  EPIC - Bisu 🇰&%23127479; (P) v Snow &%23127472;&%23127479; (P) on Benzene - StarCraft - Brood War REMASTERED 2023 - YouTube - 0-14-55.jpeg) This shot from a match between Bisu and Snow kind of showcases a typical army composition - mostly Dragoons, with just a sprinkling of Zealots, who are there to charge in, dish out, and take damage. They also help to draw fire from the Reavers so their Scarabs aren't exploding all over your tight clumps of Dragoons. Summary: Vs. Terran: A necessary tool against Siege Tanks. Vs. Zerg: Mandatory in the early and mid game, kind of iffy in the late game. Vs. Protoss: A useful supplement to Dragoons in small numbers.  Concept art for the Zealot. Noob Nemesis: One of the more noteworthy aspects of the Zealot is just how strong it is at lower levels of play. I mentioned earlier Marines being effective at holding off early Zealot pressure - the problem with that is it requires a fair amount of skill on the part of the Terran player. A fine interaction at the pro level, but it makes Zealot harassment incredibly punishing for newer players. Even more notorious is the Zealot Rush - Zealots are just so tanky that they’re incredibly difficult for a lower-ranked player to hold off en masse. We’ve talked about the 4-Pool but Zealot rushes are way more common than Zerg rushes online. In fact, between this and other cheese strategies, if you're a lower ranked ladder player and you go up against Protoss, it's normally safe to assume you're getting rushed.  Alright, I'm going nuts here. The Starcraft wiki has this still of a Zealot from an SC1 cinematic, but I can't for the life of me think of where that's actually from. Does anyone recognize it? The background makes it look like it snuck into the Battle on the Amerigo cinematic. Is it like footage from Starcraft Ghost or some exclusive content from Starcraft 64? Oh, yeah, right, Starcraft 64 exists. We should probably talk about that at some point. Murder by Proxy: This is actually a section I meant to put in the Worker spotlight, but forgot. Whoops. Fortunately, the Zealot is a good case study for its application. A "proxy" is a core building that gets built outside of the main, often in the middle of the map or even in the opponent's natural expansion. It's used in rush builds to dramatically cut down travel time for reinforcements. A proxy Gateway is arguably the most common of these - Protoss puts down a Pylon, then a Gateway right near the enemy base and pumps out Zealots. Again, a very difficult thing for new or casual players to deal with. Terran will also make use of these, though. Proxy Barracks is the popular rush choice but you'll also see proxy Factories as well. For Zerg to do a proxy Hatch is not unheard of but it's way less common. The defense against this, if you're wondering, is just scouting. If you can catch the other player in the act of proxying then you know what's coming and you can drop everything and throw some defences up to thwart it. A proxy doesn't necessarily have to be an all-in, but it usually is one. The amount of resources invested into the rush and the precariousness of the proxy building if it fails usually means that the proxy-er has almost no hope for victory if they don't succeed. Nonetheless, you can sometimes see more reserved proxy builds used for heavy, high-pressure harassment. In fact, this was the case in the match between Bisu and Larva that we looked at for our Zealots in ZvP above. Let's take a look at one of those screenshots again: Look at the minimap. See that redness in the middle of it? Let's rewind and check it out:  EPIC! Bisu 🇰&%23127479; (P) vs Larva &%23127472;&%23127479; (Z) on Blockchain - StarCraft - Brood War - YouTube - 0-2-22.jpeg) Two proxy Gateways from Bisu in the middle of the map, dramatically increasing the speed at which the harassing Zealots can arrive at Larva's base. But, as I said, this was not an all-in - it was just some higher-intensity early raiding. In fact, after the proxy rush the game would go on to continue for almost an hour. To this day, the debate over whether it's called "proxy" because it's a substitution for a building that would otherwise be in your base or because it's being used as shorthand for "proximity" rages on. And who's to say which is correct? (Answer: Me. I'm to say. The first one is correct). And finally, we've already seen the hero unit, Fenix. Double the HP, double the shields, double the damage - dude's a complete monster. You do have to be a little careful with him, though - like most heroes, Fenix gets his upgrades for free, which means in the first two missions he's the only Zealot with Leg Enhancements and can easily end up isolated out ahead of your force. Not the end of the world because he's real scary, but still something to watch out for.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2023 00:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 20:18 |
|
|
I never understood why they decided to put in a building whose sole purpose was researching one upgrade.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2023 00:37
|
|
