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Current “”“AI””” also doesn’t have any of the broader cultural or historical context, and could plausibly make a legal argument that anyone living could tell you is just flat-out wrong in no time (like, say, citing Dred Scott to claim that a black plaintiff has no standing to sue).
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Jul 25, 2023 16:40
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Clarste posted:I agree that this is the wrong thread (what does this have to do with games?) but I'm coming at this from the perspective of a lawyer. I know what legal analysis is like because I've done it, and trying to parse the "issues" from a block of text seems like something a computer would be way better at than manipulating physical objects in 3D space. Heck, humans have already done most of the work for it on lexisnexis, in terms of tagging the relevant issues from each opinion. e: wait a minute you were called out about your case law ai garbage before, how have you learned nothing in 2 months on the subject: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=1&threadid=4027671&pagenumber=18&perpage=40&highlight=law#post532018376 Wiggly Wayne DDS fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Jul 25, 2023 |
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Jul 25, 2023 16:41
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i like how multiple people brought up news stories about the industry and yet people are still talking about these internet collage tools and how they'll.. replace.. laywers?? your honor, i object!! okay hold on i gotta type something into Lawyertron. okay it's answering, give it a second. alright, the defense is trying to claim that we're in the year 2023 when it's obviously the year 2021
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Jul 25, 2023 16:54
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Wiggly Wayne DDS posted:please if you know better than everyone else join the lawyer, or the legal questions threads. i don't want to throw this thread even further off course with how lexisnexis functions, or figuring out where 'the perspective of a lawyer' comes from despite never appearing in any of those threads. i too have wrote up legal analysis, it's not a tall bar What would a gamified legal analysis puzzle game look like. As programming is to zachtronics, legal analysis is ...? Is it obra dinn?
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Jul 25, 2023 16:54
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https://twitter.com/ceeoreo_/status/1660674844302749698 never fails; I'm not much for gassing threads but the AI threads on every subforum are long overdue for being the worst, because they suck so much. This is a blockchain style bubble and will come to the same end in gaming.
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Jul 25, 2023 17:06
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I think ChatGPT's best use case besides doing homework is looking up restaurant recommendations for a geographic area. And that functionality is disabled! Going straight to law is just crazy, this is the field where precision is extremely important and is why all this so-called boilerplate exists.
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Jul 25, 2023 17:17
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At this point I would support a move to ban AI chat from this thread just like crypto chat got banned from the GPU thread.
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Jul 25, 2023 17:35
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Ok yeah enough with the AI chat unless it's being directly related to games/the games industry, and not in a pedantic "well game devs/publishers have legal departments" way.njsykora posted:At this point I would support a move to ban AI chat from this thread just like crypto chat got banned from the GPU thread. We'll see how the above goes and if it continues to be insufferable (50/50 shot tbh) we might move in that direction. I don't want to move towards a hard ban because I'm sure some dev is going to do something stupid like replacing their QA team with ChatGPT soon. Scholtz fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jul 25, 2023 |
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Jul 25, 2023 17:37
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Thanks Scholtz! I was popping in to see what's up but you have it in hand.
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Jul 25, 2023 18:25
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Clarste posted:I agree that this is the wrong thread (what does this have to do with games?) but I'm coming at this from the perspective of a lawyer. I know what legal analysis is like because I've done it, and trying to parse the "issues" from a block of text seems like something a computer would be way better at than manipulating physical objects in 3D space. Heck, humans have already done most of the work for it on lexisnexis, in terms of tagging the relevant issues from each opinion. Hi I'm coming in from the perspective of someone who does AI research for LLM companies through connections through her wife who is the head of a large lab in silicon valley. I work with AI extensively, and have had my fingers in training LLamav1, Llamav2, worked heavily with StableDiffusion, and regularly use AI art, LLMs, and multiple model mixes in my research. My comics is brainstormed with AI, have ideas basically bounced off AI, and large parts of the art work are AI. My website is coded entirely by ChatGPT, and you can find the github here: https://github.com/BobaPearl/Webcomic-SSG-Python You're wrong, I'm not going to get into the exact specifics of why you're wrong, because it would require YOU reading several papers, and I don't think you've cracked open a law book, let alone a research paper. Not only are you wrong about discerning text being harder then manipulating 3D objects, you're wrong about the complexity of AI generated text. The fact is, AI is a marketing buzzword. They're random text generators that are lightly guided by the words in their huge neural (no not brain, we just use brain words for marketing research) index. The only place AI has in games is creating textures, bump maps, and normal maps. Text gen is nowhere near capable or complex enough to handle what you're talking about. I'm assuming when you're talking about "Well they can use it for legal" you're talking about putting a whole book in the AI's context. Right now the best AI in the world can handle 32k tokens, with an A80 (That's a GPU machine learning scientists use with 80gb VRAM) It generates a token (that's one word or piece of a word,) about once per second. To put this into context, 32k tokens is smaller than the world's smallest legal book. Which sure, I'm sure you've read the advanced research about using vector databases, which use a smaller AI to sort the context into smaller readable chunks for the larger model (I'm WAY dumbing this down for you,) but even those are largely unreliable, and will give you different answers, plus there's a high chance of hallucination. They're also harder to test because they're non deterministic. (Non-deterministic means you can't verify the results against themselves, because you can't really get the same results twice.) Local Language Models, and please don't call it AI I'm begging you, can generate quick ideas, and look at the basic themes of text, for example, I use 3 colors in my comic, and have 3 laws, and 3 alters, so the AI asks me what the significance of the number 3 is in my story, and if it should generate more things with the number 3. It'll find basic grammatical things. To other people in the thread, when arguing with AI bros, make them state which models they're talking about. If they talk about ChatGPT, it's very easily to make them show their whole rear end when they can't answer why they use their chatGPT money to host their own LLM on runpod.io or something. If none of that makes sense to you, don't worry, they don't know what it means either. Just asking them "which model are you talking about? You can't just say AI as a catch all phrase" is like a magic key to cutting through dumbassery. Here are ways, I'm using AI work to make game dev easier. Here's a cobblestone texture, a depth map, and a normal map created using AI and controlnets. This took 5 seconds.    I can use these in conjunction to make a floor texture that tiles and doesn't look like complete garbage, I can also pump out a million other assets that I don't need to do by hand. I can use a LoRA and Lycoris in conjunction to keep the style consistent, and I can do this for pretty much any game texture that doesn't need that "personal touch" background slop that you'll look at for 5 seconds, and never really notice. Wallpaper, metal brush, cobblestone. , I can even use "inpainting" to switch up the internals while keeping the tiling parts, and it'll still tile. I can use Llamav2 to explain the process in pseudocode. That means I can spend my valuable dev time on things like programming or even have it code the basic skeleton for me using what amounts to a fancy auto complete for an IDE. Not writing the code, but it knows the variables and functions, so large chunks of code I can press tab once it has human input, and it'll do it's best. At no point would I trust these things to complete work on it's own. At no point would I give it no oversight or loving touch legal matters, because I understand the technology, and know it's strengths and weaknesses. Please stop posting about AI, you're embarrassing me by association.
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Jul 25, 2023 19:49
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quote:doesn't look like complete garbage 
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Jul 25, 2023 19:58
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Stoooop the AI chat here for the time being. The IK has asked nicely. Now I am asking.
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Jul 25, 2023 19:59
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Yeah I knew I'd get dinged for that, it exists.
Boba Pearl fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jul 25, 2023 |
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Jul 25, 2023 20:01
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Even as the one who called for the AI thread ban I think that's as good a closing post as we could get so thanks for that. I always enjoy when the people doing actual research post about how its being marketed.
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Jul 25, 2023 20:17
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here's some games industry news https://techland.net/news/techlands-next-chapter-and-the-road-ahead tencent is scooping up techland
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Jul 25, 2023 20:23
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for people who don't instanly know who Techland is, they made: Call of Juarez Dead Island Dying Light Dying Light 2
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Jul 25, 2023 20:27
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Wonder how much this has to do with DL2 not being quite the smash hit they were hoping for.
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Jul 25, 2023 20:28
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What does it mean that it's owned by Tencent now? How does it effect game dev? Does tencent normally let companies like this keep making their own games but pay them tithing, or are their developers gonna get split up for parts for whatever else Tencent does?
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Jul 25, 2023 20:29
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I think the Path of Exile devs have been able to run their own ship, haven't they?
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Jul 25, 2023 20:30
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tencent has an obscene number of acquisitions but I can’t imagine them doing much micro-managing for the same reason. it’s still not great to see yet another developer be absorbed into a handful of monolithic conglomerates
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Jul 25, 2023 20:32
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HopperUK posted:I think the Path of Exile devs have been able to run their own ship, haven't they? Basically yes as far as we the players are aware. There is a separate Chinese client, with even wilder mtx stuff including pay to win things. Exilecon is literally this Friday - Sunday so expect lots of PoE 2 news in the next few days to see if something looks funky.
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Jul 25, 2023 20:34
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Boba Pearl posted:What does it mean that it's owned by Tencent now? How does it effect game dev? Does tencent normally let companies like this keep making their own games but pay them tithing, or are their developers gonna get split up for parts for whatever else Tencent does? They were trying to twist Riot into a mobile-only studio after they bought them before having it gently explained to them that no, that's loving stupid and since then they seem content to just build out the WeGame catalogue and let the money roll in.
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Jul 25, 2023 20:40
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External Organs posted:Basically yes as far as we the players are aware. There is a separate Chinese client, with even wilder mtx stuff including pay to win things. Really excited for Exilecon, and hearing more about PoE2.
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Jul 25, 2023 20:56
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I don’t think anything I’ve seen has really shown exactly how much control Tencent has over development but it really does suck that companies like MS, THQs corpse, and Tencent are going to own everything in gaming.
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Jul 25, 2023 22:33
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I don't expect THQ's corpse to own a load of stuff for much longer to be honest given that leaning on The Lord of the Rings as a top tier videogame franchise probably isn't going to work out.
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Jul 25, 2023 22:37
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The problem is that Tencent’s hands-off approach to the companies they buy stops the instant the Chinese government says so.
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Jul 25, 2023 22:47
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njsykora posted:I don't expect THQ's corpse to own a load of stuff for much longer to be honest given that leaning on The Lord of the Rings as a top tier videogame franchise probably isn't going to work out. Wait, that's why the Gollum game exists?
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Jul 25, 2023 22:49
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mycot posted:Wait, that's why the Gollum game exists? I think Gollum was started before they bought the LOTR rights, but they said on their hilarious last earnings call that their big plan for clawing out of the hole all these acquisitions have left them in is to go hard on LOTR games. Hence the Mines of Moria game that's coming out next like Gollum didn't completely poison that well.
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Jul 25, 2023 22:53
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no, embracer/thq nordic had nothing to do with gollum. they bought the company (middle-earth enterprises) that owns most of the lotr ip rights last year, while daedelic (gollum devs) got a license from middle-earth enterprises back in 2019. i don't think gollum has totally poisoned the well, a well-made lotr game would still be successful. i wouldn't expect much from that moria dwarves game though given the dev doesn't really have anything notable in its past. it isn't being published by embracer either, so the licensing deal likely predates embracer acquiring the rights. it seems to fit with middle-earth enterprises licensing out the ip fairly haphazardly like they did with gollum rather than embracer making a big aaa lotr push. lih fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Jul 25, 2023 |
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Jul 25, 2023 22:57
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This is all speculation - I don't have first hand knowledge of any of this: My guess is tencent is trying to get their money out of China. They had a metric poo poo ton of wealth, but it was all attached very directly to the CCP. They see the way the windows are (probably) blowing and recognize that China really isn't that stable. To protect their wealth, they are just buying up anything with a vaguely black number at the bottom of their balance sheet. It also puts all this wealth at arms length from the CCP. I think this is also why they aren't interested in really micro managing much. This isn't necessarily an investment strategy so much as it is Advanced Money Laundering (away from China). With regards to Riot: I get the sense from a few folks I know that have been there awhile that they do have influence on the company, but I'm not sure how that manifests, other then that it seems to frustrate a lot of people stateside who have to interface with them. I have no idea how much control they have really there.
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Jul 25, 2023 23:33
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:This is all speculation - I don't have first hand knowledge of any of this: They own over 90% of riot
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Jul 25, 2023 23:52
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Silly question, my brain is too fried rn to search: Werent there some really cool LOTR games in the PS2/OG Xbox/Gamecube era?
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Jul 26, 2023 02:52
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There were certainly games. I don't remember them being anything other than the expected generic licensed game to go with the movies kind though.
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Jul 26, 2023 02:53
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wizard2 posted:Silly question, my brain is too fried rn to search: Werent there some really cool LOTR games in the PS2/OG Xbox/Gamecube era? Two of them are particularly notable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings:_The_Third_Age is LotR FFX, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings:_The_Battle_for_Middle-earth_II was a popular RTS series.
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Jul 26, 2023 02:57
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I remember having a lot of fun with the movie adaptation ones back in the day.
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Jul 26, 2023 03:18
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njsykora posted:There were certainly games. I don't remember them being anything other than the expected generic licensed game to go with the movies kind though. The PS2/Xbox in particularly got some pretty good ones. The Two Towers was pretty decent, and they got to pretty great by Return of the King, and The Third Age is a very good RPG that The Fellowship of the Ring games were bad, but those were done by a different company and either cost them the license or at the very least left them open to get outbid by Electronic Arts for it. Apparently the GBA games by EA were straight up excellent, but I've never played any of them so I can't vouch. Battle For Middle Earth on the PC was a bright spot in what followed which was... mostly the kind of licensed dreck you'd expect.
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Jul 26, 2023 03:19
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:This is all speculation - I don't have first hand knowledge of any of this: Tencent is a publicly owned company with a market cap of $400B USD. They are somewhere around the 20th largest company on the planet. They own WeChat. Who is the "they" you are talking about here that's trying to get "their" money out of China? Do you mean their CEO? He owns about 8-9% of the company, are you saying this is all a scheme so he can get his wealth out of China? The far simpler and less insane explanation is that they are just a massive global-scale holding company. A large portion of their company is purely based around investments. Think Berkshire Hathaway. Most of their wealth has nothing to do with the CCP. In conclusion, please stop making insane conspiracy theories about the Chinese
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Jul 26, 2023 04:27
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koolkal posted:Tencent is a publicly owned company with a market cap of $400B USD. They are somewhere around the 20th largest company on the planet. They own WeChat. Who is the "they" you are talking about here that's trying to get "their" money out of China? Do you mean their CEO? He owns about 8-9% of the company, are you saying this is all a scheme so he can get his wealth out of China? Yeah it's nothing nefarious or conspiratorial, it's the nature of modern global business. A lot of Chinese (and non-Chinese for that matter) companies have the problem that they sell products in the US and get paid in US dollars, they can't just magically convert those dollars into Wan (or Euros, or Rubbles etc), so they buy things that are being sold for US dollars and will give them a good return on their investment. Things like US real estate, US bonds and US companies. For awhile several big asian shipping companies were buying up mobile developers because they had US funds and it was considered a great return on investment.
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Jul 26, 2023 06:48
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China in particular has currency and capital controls that makes it even more of a pain in the rear end to move large amounts of money in and out of the country, with long bureaucratic delays etc. Western countries setting up Chinese subsidiaries have to worry about this too. Billion dollar Chinese game dev Mihoyo ended up creating a subsidiary in Singapore just to hold all their foreign profits so they wouldn't have to send it back and forth through the Great Wall of Paperwork.
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Jul 26, 2023 18:48
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:This is all speculation - I don't have first hand knowledge of any of this: this is some absolutely wild poo poo to speculate about while admitting you have zero clue what you're talking about. you should probably read something about the subject.
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Jul 26, 2023 18:57
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