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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Probably a bit of both. I've played the game once or twice with a friend's army (All Imperium Guard). okay. To save you wasting a ton of money: don't buy Citadel tools, don't buy Citadel glue. Citadel paint ranges from overpriced but worth it (contrasts, the couple of cool Technical paints), to just loving ripping you off (white, black, any Technical texture paste) , but the paint starter boxes are fine if you want to grab a grab-bag of basics. The cheapest way to find models is to get into the local discords and Facebook groups, and look for the Facebook trading group(s) for your country/state/region. ("Faction" discords are almost always terrible places to find anything worth buying, especially if you don't live in the US or UK.)There is also r/miniswap (always sort by new), which is all reddity but generally useful if you live in North America. The signal/noise in all of these is very low and you'll need to take some time to get used to what's cheap and what's actually going for 75% of GW price, but basically never pay more than 75% for GW price unless you're looking for something temporarily scarce or relatively rare. If the models are painted and you don't like the look, I also wrote a million words about how to remove paint. (Short version: 99% isopropyl, nitrile gloves, a toothbrush, and a nylon pipe cleaning brush. Don't buy painted resin models unless you like the paint.) eBay can be useful if you're willing to set up alerts for what you're looking for, but if you're just browsing, it's a sellers'/scalpers' market and often badly overpriced unless you're willing to buy broken or otherwise hosed models and rehabilitate them. Again, eBay is a lot more useful to people in the US or UK. NOS is "new on sprue" and basically new although more likely to lose parts in transit, NIB is "new in box" and a bit more reliable. "Recast" and "printed" are counterfeit and the quality varies wildly, and recast models are (almost) always resin regardless of what the model was originally made of. Any Forgeworld model without the original box or a certificate is probably a recast. Finecast is GW's resin versions of models to keep old ones in print, and their quality can be questionable. "Easy to build" or "monopose" models are models that don't come with the full range of wargear or pose options. Some models are only available as easy-to-build (and it looks like that's going to be the case for Barbgaunts), but if there are two versions of the unit, then the monopose models command a much lower price. If you don't know how to be safe when buying from randos: use a payment method with buyer protection. (Paypal goods and services is pretty standard. Most direct bank transfers aren't reversible.) Asking for irreversible payments for anything but an in-person sale is a red flag, asking for crypto is 100% a scam. Always get tracked shipping unless it's an international deal where that's not possible. Be ready to replace bases or single lost parts, since that happens a lot just by accident. Check condition before buying and make sure for yourself that it will serve for your purposes. Feel free to ask people for pictures of what they're selling; don't deal with anyone who can't or won't provide a reasonable request for pictures of the models they actually have on hand. Some stores sell used models. This is, obviously, a crapshoot, but at least you're able to inspect them in person and receive them immediately. Stores generally have higher prices than some guy, but there are many exceptions. The main thing is that there's a large knowledge gap, and stores are much more likely to demand a premium for high-quality paint jobs. The 75% of GW is a good rule of thumb to never get ripped off (as long as it's the same models that GW is currently selling and not damaged/incomplete in some way), but at least you can know that the strictly illegal ways of scamming you are much less likely. If you want to buy models GW has announced replacement for, you can definitely find some used deals now, and even more deals pretty soon. If you want swarms of guys, you can probably get some cheap genestealers, termagants, and hormagaunts. They're old models, they choke the tyranid value boxes, and they're currently terrible. Normally swarm units are pretty bad points/$ - brand-new old-sculpt Hormagaunts were about 0.75 points-per-$ until GW discontinued them - but the combination of new models and bad meta means you can definitely find some deals, especially in army lots. There is the possibility that some new weapon for termagants is meta, or that one of the units gets new modelling options in the new codex, but you could kitbash or just say they have different weapons in friendly games. Lictors are also about to be replaced, but the old models are spindly Finecast resin miniatures, so they're iffy as a used-model pickup unless you're quite confident in repairing models. Biovores/Pyrovores are about to be replaced, but they're currently meta picks, Finecast, and miserable $/points new, so you might find a deal but they aren't worth pursuing IMO. If you don't want to handle any of that nonsense, I don't blame you. The next-best option are the big online sellers for your country, who generally sell things for 10-15% off of GW MSRP. (You occasionally even see 20% sometimes.) In most countries, the standard is 15% off and free shipping for a large purchase. This might even be your local game store, but if they have gaming space they don't charge for, it probably isn't. Here on out, when I refer to prices, I'm referring to GW's prices unless I say otherwise, but never ever pay GW price unless you're buying something limited edition. Can't emphasize this enough. The best value for brand-new miniatures, regardless of who you're buying them from, are value boxes. These have multiple different units, and are generally aimed at new players to the game or to a faction. Unfortunately, they're also pretty heavily scalped, so the best ones might be so scarce that they're difficult to find after the day of release. (Keep an eye on the second-hand markets; there's a lot of people who impulse-buy a big army box then get buyer's remorse and sell it for cheap.) These have an array of intentionally-confusing names, but they generally come in two variations: smaller boxes, currently running $100-160, two-faction boxes, running $150-200, and big boxes, running $200+. Also check if the boxed set has the monopose version of a unit, if there are two versions of a unit. Small boxes are currently named "Combat Patrol: [Faction]" but have had names like Start Collecting, Boarding Patrol, or, for Age of Sigmar, Vanguard. They generally have a character, 2-3 units, and maybe an additional monster or middling-sized vehicle. These are always a good deal if you want everything in them, and usually worth it if one unit isn't something you want. Unfortunately, the last two Tyranid boxes were kind of bad, and they're both out of print anyway. Two-faction boxes have some doofy nonsense name, like Eldritch Omens or Wrath of the Soul Forge King. Generally, they have 3-4 units for each side, and at least some of those models are either brand new or (were at the time of release) exclusive to that boxed set. You can find splits of these while they're current but there aren't any current ones atm. The limited edition boxes at the start of each edition are like these, only bigger. Generally you don't see these unless a faction is getting a bunch of updates, so Tyranids haven't seen one for almost a decade, but are decently likely to get one pretty soon. These are some of the best deals as long as you can sell the other half of the split for about half of the actual price you're going to pay. Starter boxes are like these but generally smaller and cheaper, and have some of the same units that was in the big edition-starter box, but generally are a bit worse value on a good day, and on a bad day are diluted with overpriced plastic terrain or hobby tools. Big boxes come in a few different styles but they're all basically the same thing. They're 4-6 units, possibly one or two of them a vehicle or monster. Big line refreshes have seen one of these as a "limited edition" box, including a bunch of the new units and the accompanying new codex, and I'd expect Tyranids to get one of these if they don't have a two-faction box. They also do a box for multiple factions for Christmas. All of these boxes are, in practice, limited edition unless they completely suck. (You can still find the Admech Christmas battleforce box if you look, lol.) Generally, these are better than buying units a la carte if you think you can use more than half of it. You might be able to resell some of the stuff you don't need to defray the cost, but you aren't the first one to have this idea, so any really bad units or unique characters are likely to be glutted in resale markets. Unfortunately, Tyranids have had several years of bummer value boxes. The most recent small boxes, the Combat Patrol and Boarding Patrol, were just okay at best, and filled with aging units that GW is about to replace in the next few months. I do expect Tyranids to get a big box this year, but the last one they got was in 2020. They don't have any value box currently in print, so that's probably not an option for your specific case. Even if you can find the Combat Patrol in a store, half of the box is termagants. If a price seems like it's too good to be true, you found a recaster. I'm not going to get into how to find recasters, but some of them have good enough SEO to show up in a cursory search, so it's good to know how to ID them. They're usually based in Russia, Ukraine, or China, they usually ship new models internationally, and they pretty much always sell resin models. In particular, any Forge World models on eBay that don't come with their packaging are probably recasts, even if they're from another country, since they were once much more common and many people still have them in their collection. Resin is more brittle than plastic or metal and the sculpts may have problems, but brand-new recasts of GW's resin models - Finecast models ("finely-detailed resin") or from Forge World - are generally about as good as GW's quality these days. Resin also dissolves in more solvents, so don't drop it in isopropyl or any harsher solvent to strip paint or glue. Beyond that, wait until the codex comes out, which should be in a few months. I ended up trying to write a bunch of words about what models to buy but it just ended up being too much of a crapshoot. If you can find some interesting used stuff to use in the meantime, go for it, but there's no really good way to buy new models at a good value atm other than Leviathan splits or starter splits, all of which are more of the models you already have. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 11:46 on Jul 26, 2023 |
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Jul 26, 2023 08:23
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I’d bet money on them doing a new rhino chassis, and it’ll literally be an upscaled, more detailed rhino.
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Jul 26, 2023 10:11
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Yeah it's called the Deimos Rhino!!
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Jul 26, 2023 10:49
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I have one if each in my WE army, looks cool
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Jul 26, 2023 11:13
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Eej posted:Even if you don't wanna buy the cards cause they're out of date (Chaos Rhinos and Predator Destructors absolutely have typos that will be fixed on them and Chaos Terminators had a typo fixed already) just do the above and print them instead of staring at your phone. How many possible cards are you going to carry to any given game? Embrace the tactile feel of actual physical cards and get off the dang phone!! yeah I said I don’t want to use the phone, would rather not have to hand some tabletop guy my phone so he can see a sheet and then have him start swiping
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Jul 26, 2023 12:17
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Yeast posted:I’d bet money on them doing a new rhino chassis, and it’ll literally be an upscaled, more detailed rhino. Clearly the reason they made the Land Raider so good is that they're going to a new chassi for it, the Cawl Pattern (Arkhan) Land Raider.
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Jul 26, 2023 12:27
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great post I would also humbly suggest keeping an eye out for advertised tag sales (if they list gaming or have tons of board games). Also, if you like trolling goodwills and salvos I’ve been finding a ton of warhammer and other miniature stuff lately. not to be too gross about it but I think covid may have gotten a lot of grogs and people are cleaning out attics. i brought a NIB necrons box (old ones with the plastic green tubes) I bought for $8 at goodwill to my lgs and turned it into some new poo poo
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Jul 26, 2023 12:29
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When are they going to release a vehicle named after the most influential and well known space marine of all time? I don't think anyone wouldn't want to buy an Erebus Pattern Rhino.
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Jul 26, 2023 13:23
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Clearly Forgeworld is going to release the Guilliman pattern Supply Rhino at some point. And then it gets rules that add free rerolls to attack after resupplying a unit.
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Jul 26, 2023 13:29
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Cooked Auto posted:Clearly Forgeworld is going to release the Guilliman pattern Supply Rhino at some point. The Erebus Pattern Rhino blows up when you try to disembark and you roll a dice for every model inside and on a 1 they die.
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Jul 26, 2023 14:07
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there are rumblings that there's been another ghost update / rules clarification edit - looks like all datasheets got an update today
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Jul 26, 2023 15:18
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Turns out those rumblings are true, just no WarCom post about it. At least not yet. https://www.warhammer-community.com/warhammer-40000-downloads
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Jul 26, 2023 15:20
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Maybe Primaris Marines are a ploy to get people to play Horus Heresy since that's where all the cool Space Marine stuff is.
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Jul 26, 2023 15:20
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Krieg Squads get their medic packs again and Infantry squads got their second special weapon when combined. Good fixes.
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Jul 26, 2023 15:24
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It's hard to keep track of when exactly things were introduced in the lore, for me at least. Have Primaris dudes been around long enough to fall to chaos?
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Jul 26, 2023 15:25
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bij posted:Maybe Primaris Marines are a ploy to get people to play Horus Heresy since that's where all the cool Space Marine stuff is. I'm not sure that I want 10 man units full of lascannons either, but I geuss the 30kheads seem to like it E: to be more clear, if your concern is that primaris units are boring, one weapon squads, I don't see HH addressing that smug jeebus fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Jul 26, 2023 |
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Jul 26, 2023 15:26
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Cooked Auto posted:Turns out those rumblings are true, just no WarCom post about it. Changelist https://www.warhammer-community.com...TbJb_8ByUX5_Rwo
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Jul 26, 2023 15:27
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John Romero posted:It's hard to keep track of when exactly things were introduced in the lore, for me at least. Have Primaris dudes been around long enough to fall to chaos? An entire sub sector or somesuch fell to Khorne during Arks of Omen and that includes Primaris and Sisters of Battle.
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Jul 26, 2023 16:26
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Cynic Jester posted:Build and paint the leviathan stuff for a month or two while you wait for the Tyranid codex to hit, which might drastically change the advice you get. This, plus maybe even wait until the end of the year as I would expect one of the holiday-timed Battleforce boxes to be a natural expansion on the Leviathan forces.
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Jul 26, 2023 17:09
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smug jeebus posted:I'm not sure that I want 10 man units full of lascannons either, but I geuss the 30kheads seem to like it Yeah, I actually found HH to be a real continuation of the primaris marines in that respect. It's two different issues though, one is that many primaris marines look bad, the other is that games workshop seems to be moving towards squads of dedicated weapons, because they think it's better game design. And the second idea is one I'm a lot more open to, or at least I'm not adamantly opposed to it like I am with some of these sillier sculpts.
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Jul 26, 2023 17:21
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The problem with the old space marine "flexibility" is that the flexibility is pretty useless. A single melta shot or one lascannon won't make a noticable change in the overall game but 4 or 5 are actually what you need.
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Jul 26, 2023 17:35
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smug jeebus posted:I'm not sure that I want 10 man units full of lascannons either, but I geuss the 30kheads seem to like it Just aesthetics, the recent HH stuff like the legion specific praetors and the plastic dudes in the MKVI set are fantastic. The Kratos is waaaay more in line with SM than the hovertanks. 40k isn't all bad, the big boy terminators are super cool and the basic Primaris Marine is fine (except the lack of the D:< helmet). A bunch of the embiggened character sculpts are huge improvements and the landspeeder replacement would be if it didn't have the silly stubber turret.
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Jul 26, 2023 17:43
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Improbable Lobster posted:The problem with the old space marine "flexibility" is that the flexibility is pretty useless. A single melta shot or one lascannon won't make a noticable change in the overall game but 4 or 5 are actually what you need. And if I'm remembering right back in 3rd you couldn't split fire so here's 9 bolters into the front armor of a leman russ so I can shoot one krak round at it. Someone who's not me can probably tell the history of split fire in 40K. Really just posting this as a "how weird tac squads were back in the day" way I guess.
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Jul 26, 2023 17:44
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In second they modeled line of sight per model, and if you started turning your little tactical marines this way and that, you could have them firing at multiple targets and recreate the crimson fist poster. In third, if you fired a heavy weapon at a vehicle, everyone else is presumed to be helping with spotting and ammo or just generally keeping their heads down. I like the idea of a tactical squad being a rounded unit, but honestly the modern intercessors do this very well - mechanically, the grenade launcher keeps that tradition alive just fine.
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Jul 26, 2023 17:54
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Yeah, my issue is more with the visual design of Primaris than with having specialized squads. It's pretty clear that the standard tactical squad (as well as most factions' basic squads) is based on the basic structure of most 20th/21st Century military's squad where you have 10ish guys with basic rifles and one or two guys with a support weapon of some kind. For a tabletop game, that kind of squad structure works great at the skirmish level where each model moves individually and can have their own role: rifle/bolter guys are more maneuverable and cheaper so they can take objectives and try to bait out opponents with risky moves, while your models with heavier weapons are slower and need to move more cautiously. For a game like 40k where squads are the basic unit of maneuver and fire, this breaks down a little bit and having mixed weapons in a squad just muddies up their role. A squad is now only as fast as their slowest member, so a squad with 4 boltgun marines and one heavy bolter is just a worse devastator squad in a lot of ways. Tactical squads with heavy weapons are trying to fulfill the role of both a maneuver unit and a fire unit while not being great at either, rather than sticking to being an objective-taker. Adding to these difficulties with role-designation is the plethora of cool sci-fi weapons that have all been slotted into the "support weapon" role. They all offer the supposedly generalist tactical squad more options to specialize, and in each edition there is often a "correct" choice to take (usually plasma). Now, there are a few ways squad-based games can solve these issues: a lot of games abstract an individual squad's armament rather than tracking the individual attack of every model separately. Xenos Rampant is a good example of this and games like FoW make it explicit with multibasing. 40k is working with its long history of individual attacks (due to being a skirmish game engine co-opted for company level battles) so has instead opted to lean towards squads with identical weapons over time. I think both are valid approaches even though I think games at 40k's scale should probably be a little more abstracted, but I understand the reasoning behind the trend.
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Jul 26, 2023 17:55
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FishFood posted:40k is working with its long history of individual attacks (due to being a skirmish game engine co-opted for company level battles) so has instead opted to lean towards squads with identical weapons over time. This is a great point and it's a major reason why I'd like smaller battles.
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Jul 26, 2023 17:59
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Yeah, I think I would like 40k a lot more if the standard battle size was like 3 basic squads, a tank, and a specialist squad or two. That feels like the size the game engine actually wants to be, but the game size has been actively pushed larger over time.
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Jul 26, 2023 18:04
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tangy yet delightful posted:And if I'm remembering right back in 3rd you couldn't split fire so here's 9 bolters into the front armor of a leman russ so I can shoot one krak round at it. Someone who's not me can probably tell the history of split fire in 40K. Really just posting this as a "how weird tac squads were back in the day" way I guess. I can't tell you the full history, but that was part of what "split into 5 man combats squads" thing was for - you'd "only" be wasting 4 bolters worth of fire most of the time you were taking tactical squads for mandatory force org or minimum troop % reasons, so you just sort of dealt with it the full tactical squad being a genuinely desirable unit has been a pretty rare occurrence over the life of 40k, which is too bad, especially since a lot of tactical-squad derivatives and adjacent units for chapters with alternate rules have often been reasonable to pretty good through the simple expedient of giving them some additional melee punch (which let them have some actual flexibility) and/or letting them double up on special weapons (so that they actually had reasonable fire into certain classes of enemy units) e: FishFood's take is much better/more comprehensive LGD fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jul 26, 2023 |
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Jul 26, 2023 18:06
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FishFood posted:Yeah, I think I would like 40k a lot more if the standard battle size was like 3 basic squads, a tank, and a specialist squad or two. That feels like the size the game engine actually wants to be, but the game size has been actively pushed larger over time. This is a big reason why I like Bolt Action so much. A Bolt Action force is a platoon of guys (usually 3 squads of 10 or so plus a officer), a couple of heavy weapons teams, maybe one more specialist squad, and then maybe a tank. My biggest gripe with 40k is that a standard 2000 point army is just way too many loving models. It's a pain in the rear end to paint, expensive to buy, and a pain in the rear end to play with.
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Jul 26, 2023 18:31
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A tactical squad armed with a lascannon and/or a meltagun used to be a lot more dangerous to vehicles, back when they could be destroyed or disabled with a single penetrating hit. It's less swingy now, but that also means that that vehicles can rely more on surviving a few dangerous attacks.
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Jul 26, 2023 18:47
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I played my first ever 40k game last night, combat patrol Grey Knights vs. Tyranids and the bugs ate my loving lunch. It started off really well for me, and the game did a lot to assuage my fears about how limited the Grey Knights patrol is--2+ saves on everything is really loving good--but once the loving Psychofage got into melee with my librarian and terminators I was beaten. The actual score was really low, 10-19 but with only three strike squad members left, I conceded. It would have played out differently if I was more familiar with my stratagems, if I had remembered Unyielding To The Last I might have also taken out the Psychofage. Still, for a first time it was a good showing. The lack of bodies definitely hurts the GK patrol, to say nothing have having to pick between bodies or being able to deal with high Toughness enemies and I'm not sure whether Terminators and the DK would be oppressive or not (probably really depends on the match up) but it was a much more competitive team than I was expecting. Really looking forward to trying an actual game now!
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Jul 26, 2023 20:07
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FishFood posted:Yeah, I think I would like 40k a lot more if the standard battle size was like 3 basic squads, a tank, and a specialist squad or two. That feels like the size the game engine actually wants to be, but the game size has been actively pushed larger over time. I really miss this from 2nd, plus 3rd to an extent. Combat Patrol has really been appealing to me because it feels like what a game of 40k used to. I do wish I could list build a bit.
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Jul 26, 2023 21:39
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Virtual Russian posted:I really miss this from 2nd, plus 3rd to an extent. Combat Patrol has really been appealing to me because it feels like what a game of 40k used to. I do wish I could list build a bit. That's about what 1,000 points is. My 1k space marine list is 20 intercessors, 10 devastators, 5 terminators, and 2 characters.
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Jul 26, 2023 21:41
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Virtual Russian posted:I really miss this from 2nd, plus 3rd to an extent. Combat Patrol has really been appealing to me because it feels like what a game of 40k used to. I do wish I could list build a bit. There's always Boarding Patrol (sorry you don't get vehicles)
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Jul 26, 2023 21:47
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I wish 1000pts was where things were centered around instead of 2000
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Jul 26, 2023 21:47
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Jack B Nimble posted:That's about what 1,000 points is. My 1k space marine list is 20 intercessors, 10 devastators, 5 terminators, and 2 characters. Yeah I'm currently building to 1000pts, I don't plan to go past that. A small platoon with armoured support.
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Jul 26, 2023 22:04
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FishFood posted:For a tabletop game, that kind of squad structure works great at the skirmish level where each model moves individually and can have their own role: rifle/bolter guys are more maneuverable and cheaper so they can take objectives and try to bait out opponents with risky moves, while your models with heavier weapons are slower and need to move more cautiously. btw kill team is a tiny miracle of being an actually interesting rifle squad game despite also having fearless monster berserkers and physics defying illusion clowns. it's very very good (as long as you aren't planning to play tournaments this summer)
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Jul 26, 2023 23:35
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40k’s rules are definitely awkward for the model counts the game wants you to have, but it’s really still among the most fun mass combat wargames. KT is fine but at the skirmish game level there are tons of competitors that are way better than “fine” and GW’s relatively weak rules writing is more apparent. There’s really nothing that can directly compete with 40k. Legion is noooooot great and most of the other large scale games are fantasy oriented.
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Jul 26, 2023 23:53
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Fantasy is neat but nowhere near as interesting to me as sci-fi, for whatever reason. I think it's because of robots
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Jul 27, 2023 00:20
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:Legion is noooooot great
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Jul 27, 2023 00:22
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