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cruft posted:It's just old, basically. Newer, better technologies exist, including CHAdeMO v3, which looks suspiciously like NACS with a 3rd high-voltage terminal. So using your USB analogy, it's physically limiting things like potential charge rate and needs to move forward to be able to charge batteries faster now and in the near future?
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Jul 26, 2023 20:54
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slidebite posted:So using your USB analogy, it's physically limiting things like potential charge rate and needs to move forward to be able to charge batteries faster now and in the near future? It's a little more like USB vs IEEE 1394/FireWire. Different folks developed different standards, with different costs and benefits. In North America, Nisan and the Leaf were biggest/longest-lasting consumers for the physical interface. And importantly, this is primarily a North American discussion. Europe is mostly CCS2, China has their own thing, and Japan may still have some Chademo vehicles in production. Because of the huge bodies of water in-between, most cars aren't going to charge outside their home markets. Anyone shipping a car (right now) between the two can generally afford to homologate to the local standard or install the required charging points for themselves  bird with big dick posted:Well I'll save you the trouble then: Cruft is right. Roll mode regens exactly the same it just doesn't blend in the friction brakes when you're about to stop (around 5 mph) and essentially goes into neutral. It's a weird mode tbh and seems largely to be a holdover from before they had hold mode (at one point they only had roll and creep I believe). I can't imagine many people use it and I can't really see any advantage to an EV that essentially behaves like a manual ICE at stoplights. Eh. The answer is still "this is how the car behaves, either get used to it or it's a deal-breaker". I don't intend to change off the one-pedal driving mode I have now, and I'm fine with the car's behavior. And I've only very occasionally driven a manual; all my previous daily drivers have been underpowered automatics. It's initially jarring because it's different. It's certainly not a bad choice like the complete lack of a driver's display. Wizard of the Deep fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Jul 26, 2023 |
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Jul 26, 2023 21:14
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Wizard of the Deep posted:It's a little more like USB vs IEEE 1394/FireWire. Different folks developed different standards, with different costs and benefits. In North America, Nisan and the Leaf were biggest/longest-lasting consumers for the physical interface. As I understand it, China and Japan are going with CHAdeMO v3, aka ChaoJi (which is probably some clever pun in some language). I don't know what that portends for Australia or the rest of APAC. One of the reasons this thread is all spun up about NACS is that many of us thought NACS was a superior connector, and most (all?) of us assumed the dust had finally settled and North America was getting CCS1. It was the Phoenix Wright of last-minute standardization moves. But the dust *had* settled on the charging protocol. Both NACS and CCS1 speak CCS, so you'll be able to keep charging your Chevrolet Bolt indefinitely, you just might need an adapter. This was not the situation for CHAdeMO, which, essentially, every time there was a question about "should the car do this or should the charger do it", CHAdeMO picked the opposite thing as CCS, and this is why no adapters exist. I have no idea how Tesla made a CHAdeMO adapter, but the price makes me think there's a whole computer inside that fakes the charging station into thinking it's talking to a Nissan LEAF. You could theoretically make one of these for CHAdeMO and CCS, but it would be expensive as hell. cruft fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Jul 26, 2023 |
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Jul 26, 2023 21:54
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cruft posted:As I understand it, China and Japan are going with CHAdeMO v3, aka ChaoJi (which is probably some clever pun in some language). I don't know what that portends for Australia or the rest of APAC. The only fast chargers I have even seen at all are Tesla. And the numbers arent exactly overwhelming
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Jul 26, 2023 22:22
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cruft posted:I have no idea how Tesla made a CHAdeMO adapter, but the price makes me think there's a whole computer inside that fakes the charging station into thinking it's talking to a Nissan LEAF. You could theoretically make one of these for CHAdeMO and CCS, but it would be expensive as hell. The Tesla CHAdeMO adapter is also limited to 43 kW maximum power, not like the CCS/Magic Docks that seem to be up to 200 kW in the right conditions. Like at this point it would practically take deliberate effort to strand yourself into needing the CHAdeMO adapter and its utility would be limited entirely to "getting just enough battery to reach the nearest supercharger".
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Jul 27, 2023 02:56
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has anyone here done an east->west coast road trip in a non-Tesla EV? i might need to do one at some point in the future, and the Ford nav app ain't super informative on how realistic it is I can get through Wyoming, Montana and Idaho and get superchargers
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Jul 27, 2023 03:15
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Lady Radia posted:has anyone here done an east->west coast road trip in a non-Tesla EV? i might need to do one at some point in the future, and the Ford nav app ain't super informative on how realistic it is I can get through Wyoming, Montana and Idaho and get superchargers A Better Route Planner, now owned by Rivian, is just super awesome for this. You can get a Bluetooth OBD2 thingy to feed it your current battery information, and the experience is quite similar to what you get in a Tesla. It maps the whole drive out for you, tells you where to charge and for how long, and updates you realtime with whether its estimate was off. It also, unlike Tesla, has a web browser version. So I frequently use it to plan out my Tesla trips, in addition to using it for the Bolt and (formerly) the LEAF.
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Jul 27, 2023 03:22
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Sagebrush posted:The technology needs to serve the user, not the other way around. If someone wants their new car to behave like their old car, coasting when they let off the accelerator and not actively decelerating until they touch the brake, the car should let them do that. In a Tesla it does and thats my point - the brake pedal *only* operates the conventional brakes. If Tesla were to reduce the regen on the accelerator pedal in order to appease people who cant learn how to drive smoothly with it then that by default means more friction braking which means less efficiency.
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Jul 27, 2023 03:26
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Lady Radia posted:has anyone here done an east->west coast road trip in a non-Tesla EV? i might need to do one at some point in the future, and the Ford nav app ain't super informative on how realistic it is I can get through Wyoming, Montana and Idaho and get superchargers Probably better to swing south through Colorado than to deal with Wyoming, but see what you can figure out on ABRP for Montana
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Jul 27, 2023 04:13
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ROFLBOT posted:In a Tesla it does and thats my point - the brake pedal *only* operates the conventional brakes. If Tesla were to reduce the regen on the accelerator pedal in order to appease people who cant learn how to drive smoothly with it then that by default means more friction braking which means less efficiency. Or they could just make the brake pedal blend regen and friction braking, like the high-technology 2013 Nissan Leaf managed to do, and also literally every other EV. I always drive in one-pedal mode, and the Bolt's max-regen paddle is cool, I almost never touch the brake pedal unless I'm on a steep hill. But some people don't like that and never will, which is fine, and it appears trivial to just have a range of options the user can select. Ok Comboomer posted:Bolt People: what are your thoughts on 1LT vs 2LT? 2LT with comfort and convenience package was the sweet spot price/features wise for me. ACC on the Bolt is really, really good, minus the fact that it uses friction brakes WAY too early.
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Jul 27, 2023 04:57
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cruft posted:I don't think anybody ITT knows, although a few have sort of hinted that maybe Nissan is not the most forward-looking of the Japanese automakers. It’s the standard adopted and still used in Japan. It’ll eventually be succeeded by CHAdeMo 3 aka ChaoJi but believe me, the charging port isn’t the biggest problem in Japan for EVs. Any OEMs in Japan will have planned to use different inlet plugs in different markets, and anybody importing to Japan is likely putting CHAdeMO inlets on their vehicles (like Porsche and Tesla).
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Jul 27, 2023 05:11
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Elviscat posted:Or they could just make the brake pedal blend regen and friction braking, like the high-technology 2013 Nissan Leaf managed to do, and also literally every other EV. Does it though? Because the brake pedal is a direct mechanical/hydraulic connection to the brakes. The accelerator is an electrical connection to the motor controller so it makes perfect sense to use one pedal for the mechanical system only and the other pedal for an electrical connection to the controller only. That seems like the simplest and most straightforward of solutions. "man these newfangled horseless carriages with their steering tillers, theyre not easy to use like the reigns on a horse!"
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Jul 27, 2023 06:00
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It is kinda funny that Tesla is the one going for the simple, non-tech-forward approach. But putting a spring and a linear potentiometer on the first inch of brake pedal travel is pretty loving easy, and your analogy is stupid. Just because you have a preference for one thing doesn't magically make other people's preferences somehow wrong.
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Jul 27, 2023 06:06
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Confirmed the model Y fits in my garage! Now the hard part - I5 or MYLR? How bad is EA charging really? Is it that much worse than Tesla for roadtrips? The Tesla tech and charging is great but man those creature comforts in the I5. I really like the ventilated seats.
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Jul 27, 2023 06:08
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ROFLBOT posted:Does it though? Because the brake pedal is a direct mechanical/hydraulic connection to the brakes. The accelerator is an electrical connection to the motor controller so it makes perfect sense to use one pedal for the mechanical system only and the other pedal for an electrical connection to the controller only. That seems like the simplest and most straightforward of solutions. If you press the gas and brake at the same time the brake pedal overrides the electrical connection to the motor controller so it’s silly to pretend the two pedals are controlling to entirely separate and unrelated systems. It’s also silly to pretend that “this controls the electrical connection to the motor and this controls the mechanical connection to the brakes” is simpler or more logical than “this pedal makes the car go and this one makes the car stop” from the perspective of drivers, who are the people these interfaces are designed for.
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Jul 27, 2023 06:26
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Elviscat posted:It is kinda funny that Tesla is the one going for the simple, non-tech-forward approach. My analogy was to point out that just because a subset of users cant or dont want to get used to some new way of doing things doesnt automatically make that new way wrong. Sometimes people just have to suck it up, particularly while there are others who dont have a problem and see the benefits. I guess the alternative is just dont buy a Tesla.
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Jul 27, 2023 06:43
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Lowness 72 posted:Confirmed the model Y fits in my garage! Now the hard part - I5 or MYLR? My Ford was literally plug n play.
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Jul 27, 2023 06:57
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ROFLBOT posted:My analogy was to point out that just because a subset of users cant or dont want to get used to some new way of doing things doesnt automatically make that new way wrong. Sometimes people just have to suck it up, particularly while there are others who dont have a problem and see the benefits. What is the advantage of not blending the brake pedal? ROFLBOT posted:I guess the alternative is just dont buy a Tesla. I mean, ok, but not because of how the pedals work. E: Lowness 72 posted:Confirmed the model Y fits in my garage! Now the hard part - I5 or MYLR? EA is not great, but getting much, much better. Download the Plugshare app and check out the ratings on your roadtrip routes if you want to know how good it is in your area! There's also a lot of standalone CCS stations around, check those out too, maybe see if any of the Tesla stations on your routes have Magic Dock. Elviscat fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Jul 27, 2023 |
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Jul 27, 2023 07:07
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Lowness 72 posted:Confirmed the model Y fits in my garage! Now the hard part - I5 or MYLR? I just bought an I5 and have had no problems the two times I've charged it at EA stations so far. I was able to pull up, plug in, and activate with my phone to start charging. No hassle. Also worth mentioning that the I5 comes with 2 years of free 30 minutes charging sessions. My first session I was able to go from roughly 12% to 80% battery on a 150kw charger in about 23 minutes. I tried a 350kw charger the second time and that did 24% to 80% in about 14 minutes. I have no real complaints with the car so far and can't wait to take it on some longer drives.
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Jul 27, 2023 07:18
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Elviscat posted:What is the advantage of not blending the brake pedal? The advantage is one-pedal driving and the removal of a default coasting condition which improves efficiency, as I've said before.
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Jul 27, 2023 07:47
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No, it doesn't, as everyone in this thread who knows dick about poo poo, including other Tesla owners, told you last time, you willfully ignorant buffoon.
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Jul 27, 2023 08:01
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Isn't one pedal driving actually worse for efficiency on downhill roads? Having gravity do the work instead of the electric motors should be better or am I missing something?
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Jul 27, 2023 08:03
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No, if you hold the pedal in a neutral position, no energy will be expended or regenerated, if you begin going faster than you'd like, ease up on the pedal and the excess mechanical energy will be transformed to electricity and charge the battery. Regenerating is slightly less efficient than letting gravity pull you, because of losses through the generator and the inverters, but if you need to slow down anyways it's a moot point. This doesn't change with blended brakes, since instead of holding down the accelerator pedal less hard, you lightly press the brake pedal, and literally the exact same thing happens.
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Jul 27, 2023 08:20
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Lowness 72 posted:Confirmed the model Y fits in my garage! Now the hard part - I5 or MYLR? EA is not great, but it definitely works. I've always been able to get a charge eventually, just be prepared to wait if the chargers are already all taken. Also I love my I5 so far, highly recommend. Ajaxify posted:Also worth mentioning that the I5 comes with 2 years of free 30 minutes charging sessions. My first session I was able to go from roughly 12% to 80% battery on a 150kw charger in about 23 minutes. I tried a 350kw charger the second time and that did 24% to 80% in about 14 minutes. Same, but annoyingly it's 30 minutes regardless of whether the station is performing as advertised, so you end up getting charged if the station is underallocating and can't charge you up in 30 minutes. That being said, the actual cost when you go over the 30 minutes is cheap enough it's basically a rounding error compared to the price of filling up a gasoline car. Talorat fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Jul 27, 2023 |
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Jul 27, 2023 08:31
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ROFLBOT posted:Does it though? Because the brake pedal is a direct mechanical/hydraulic connection to the brakes. The accelerator is an electrical connection to the motor controller so it makes perfect sense to use one pedal for the mechanical system only and the other pedal for an electrical connection to the controller only. That seems like the simplest and most straightforward of solutions. Okay but in this example blended braking is the newfangled thing that you don't understand. Did you choose to become the butt of your own joke like... ironically?
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Jul 27, 2023 09:09
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Ola we need you come back to us and explain how regen works
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Jul 27, 2023 13:32
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Talorat posted:That being said, the actual cost when you go over the 30 minutes is cheap enough it's basically a rounding error compared to the price of filling up a gasoline car. That's one of the reasons why I started using ChargePoint when it's convenient as they have chargers set up in places and stores I go to somewhat frequently. With Electrify America, despite having free 30 minute fast charging for the next 3 years, I have to go fairy out of my way to access their chargers when commuting or doing errands. Still useful for road trips when I need the fast charging but I simply can't make it work with my current routine and the current locations of their chargers. The other day, I spent the day at a mall that have ChargePoint chargers that I used while going about my business. After about 3 hours of charging, I only spent $4.73 and it added 19 kWh or approximately 77 miles which comes out to about 16 miles per dollar. A real drop in the bucket compared to spending about $60 for a tank of premium gas for my other car to get about 280 miles of range or about 4-5 miles per dollar. I'll still primarily depend on home charging despite being limited to about 2.88 kW. However, if I'm going to the mall, IKEA or any place which has ChargePoint chargers, the rates are reasonable, and I know I'll be there for a few hours, I might as well use them to top it off. Especially now that it seems ChargePoint somewhat recently added the ability to pay directly with your credit card instead of pre-paying into a balance.
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Jul 27, 2023 14:50
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Elviscat posted:No, it doesn't, as everyone in this thread who knows dick about poo poo, including other Tesla owners, told you last time, you willfully ignorant buffoon. I drive one every drat day, i know how it works. You are the one making assumptions about Tesla introducing blending on the brake pedal which i’m not talking about. I’m not sure how i can put it any clearer, if Tesla were to reduce the deceleration effect on Accelerator liftoff *without modifying brake pedal operation* that would make the car less efficient because there would be less regen. Capisce?
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Jul 27, 2023 14:51
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LOL we're arguing about blended braking again.
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Jul 27, 2023 14:52
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Edward IV posted:However, if I'm going to the mall, IKEA or any place which has ChargePoint chargers, the rates are reasonable, and I know I'll be there for a few hours, I might as well use them to top it off. Especially now that it seems ChargePoint somewhat recently added the ability to pay directly with your credit card instead of pre-paying into a balance. One key thing I’ve found with Chargepoint is the rates can vary dramatically due to the property owner being able to set the rates. For example my local municipality has set the charging cost to just match the parking lot hourly rate they are close to, essentially making the charging free if you were planning on parking in the lot. Alternatively I parked at a hotel close to Disneyland once that set their prices as $1.08/kWh (roughly 3x Tesla supercharger price) and paid like $45 for a charge. On-site Disneyland parking was cheaper charging at like $0.35/kWh but you had to pay a parking lot fee to get to the chargers.
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Jul 27, 2023 15:30
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https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/ A REUTERS SPECIAL REPORT: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints quote:Ponsin contacted Tesla and booked a service appointment in California. He later received two text messages, telling him that “remote diagnostics” had determined his battery was fine, and then: “We would like to cancel your visit.”
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Jul 27, 2023 15:31
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Don't buy a Tesla 
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Jul 27, 2023 15:34
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Tesla would rather suppress valid range complaints than implement blended braking and selectable regen.
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Jul 27, 2023 16:09
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Infinotize posted:Tesla would rather suppress valid range complaints than implement blended braking and selectable regen. It was another warm day in Palo Alto. I was just starting in on my 5th shot of espresso, when Pat Jenkins knocked on my door. "Do you have a minute, sir?" "What is it this time, Jenkins? Did the feds finally locate our battery ignition mechanism?" A smile crossed Pat's face at the mention of the battery ignition mechanism. It was the pride of our division: I even had one bronzed, sitting on my desk holding down stacks of NHTSA investigation paperwork. "No, no, nothing that bad. It's just that our department's budget has been cut again." "drat it! How do they expect us to keep our quality standards up with these razor-thin margins?" "Well, about that... the team has been brainstorming and we have a solution that we think you might like. We've calculated we can save $1,000 in support costs every time we close out a service request with the word 'range' in it." A grand per complaint was compelling. "A thousand, you say? Well that's interesting. But that's going to help the service department, not us." "Oh, that's the best part. Because we can demonstrate the idea began here, we think we have a plausible claim that we can grow our annual budget. After all, this sort of thing is the whole reason our division exists." I thought about it for a few seconds. I could probably argue that at the next management meeting. "I like this idea, Jenkins. How soon can we get started?" "Well, it's not quite that easy. We're going to need to ramp up staffing to write software that searches for the word 'range', and we'll need some engineering talent that knows about potentiometers..." "Potentiometers? What in the sam hill?" "It's complicated, and I can go over the diagrams here if you'd like, but, yes, potentiometers." The last thing I wanted to do today was go over more process control diagrams. "No, that's fine, I believe you. Hmm..." Thinking it over, I remember how Margaret in software hadn't complimented my egg salad at the last company picnic. I might be able to pull a developer off her stupid selectable regen project once I put some cost savings projections up on the screen. And engineering was doing some drat thing with putting more hardware on the brake pedal. We're already selling more cars than everyone else combined, adding cost of goods would be an easy project to kill. "Give me a week and I think I can get you the people you need." "That's great to hear, sir. I don't know how you do it." "Well, Jenkins, they don't give the title Chief Evil Officer to just anyone."
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Jul 27, 2023 16:39
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Infinotize posted:Tesla would rather suppress valid range complaints than implement blended braking and selectable regen. lol that this is your takeaway, those things have practically nothing to do with each other especially since Teslas are efficiency kings compared to Fords et al.
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Jul 27, 2023 17:11
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Ok Comboomer posted:Inside the Nevada team’s office, some employees celebrated canceling service appointments by putting their phones on mute and striking a metal xylophone, triggering applause from coworkers who sometimes stood on desks. lol that owns, sounds like a fun office atmosphere.
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Jul 27, 2023 17:14
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bird with big dick posted:lol that this is your takeaway, those things have practically nothing to do with each other especially since Teslas are efficiency kings compared to Fords et al. 
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Jul 27, 2023 17:16
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lol hard to tell sometimes
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Jul 27, 2023 17:18
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I have been assured that Tesla range estimates are totally legit and claims otherwise are part of a conspiracy of the deep state
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Jul 27, 2023 17:19
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You get optimal efficiency per mile if you coast whenever possible without using power. However, *when* you need to brake, regenerative braking is the most energy efficient. So making the car coast when you release the accelerator and regen when you press the brake pedal would seem to be the most efficient overall?
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Jul 27, 2023 17:20
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