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FlamingLiberal posted:There are multiple GOP candidates now that want us to just invade Mexico Need a new Vietnam to cull the young voters.
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Jul 27, 2023 17:23
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Space Fish posted:I've noticed that Frankl's "Man's Search For Meaning" gets recommended/cited by right-wing personalities fairly often, and I would love to hear greater analysis from them than either recounting the premise or "he learned to survive a living hell, so inspirational" takes. Frankl in the book delves into how some people acted more heroic when possible, while others became more cowardly/villainous. And others simply scraped along. I read that when I was in therapy and the point of the book is that people even in the worst of times find ways to survive and keep themselves motivated, usually by holding on to the idea that things will get better or holding on to find family. The book is about the paradoxes we face in the worst of time, like how time goes quickly but feels like a slog. I read deeper into the history of the book and some interpreted the book as something along the lines of the of the Jews are to blame for what happened to them and that they were complicit in their own genocide. Which, again, is not the point of his book. In fact, I remember there is a part of the book where the Jews come back to their homes in Germany and other parts of Eastern Europe, trying to tell people the horrors of what they faced and apparently more than a few people said, well we suffered too. Which to me perfectly encapsulates the conservative mindset, take a tragedy claim you were the ones actually harmed by the thing you caused. And my guess is that no one on staff read the book, just that Frankl said, well make yourself available to your betters when things are bad and you get to learn things and be considered useful.
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Jul 27, 2023 17:51
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Mooseontheloose posted:In fact, I remember there is a part of the book where the Jews come back to their homes in Germany and other parts of Eastern Europe, trying to tell people the horrors of what they faced and apparently more than a few people said, well we suffered too. Which to me perfectly encapsulates the conservative mindset, take a tragedy claim you were the ones actually harmed by the thing you caused. And my guess is that no one on staff read the book, just that Frankl said, well make yourself available to your betters when things are bad and you get to learn things and be considered useful. West Germans after the war invested a lot of time and energy, consciously or not, in re-imagining themselves as victims of the war specifically to deflect for their very real complicity in the various atrocities of the Nazi state. In particular, they latched onto Soviet retention of POWs convicted of war crimes after 1946 when regular repatriation ended as evidence not only of communist brutality but also the imagined possibility that millions of their MIAs were actually still alive, and prisoners in the alleged "silent camps" all over the Soviet Union. During rally and demonstrations to show support for these imagined missing men, they appropriated Holocaust imagery and repurposed it for themselves, thus stealing victim status from the people they themselves helped to victimize. A few examples:   
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Jul 27, 2023 18:04
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Wow I wonder if there are parallels to the POW MIA flags we see in the US. Seems very similar!
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Jul 27, 2023 18:08
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Panfilo posted:Wow I wonder if there are parallels to the POW MIA flags we see in the US. Seems very similar! My god are there ever, once you get into it (which I have done at length). I won't derail the thread further, but the post-Vietnam American version of this same myth/conspiracy is a significant marker in the turn of conservatives toward embracing the idea of being the victims of [insert grievance of the moment here] and demanding policy to address that, usually at the expense of whomever they're curbstomping most viciously currently. Captain_Maclaine fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Jul 27, 2023 |
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Jul 27, 2023 18:10
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:The right wing is going to have some real conflicts when Hunter Biden is using a second amendment defense in front of SCOTUS because his plea deal was imploded.
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Jul 27, 2023 18:25
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It would certainly make a good thread. I hadn't thought about the idea that West Germans would pull the same gimmick. The part that really pinged this is the narrative that "the enemy captured our soldiers, and didn't return all of them, some of them could still be alive! Which is hosed up on a number of levels - it gives families false hopes, makes war criminals seem sympathetic, and whitewashes the whole conflict.
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Jul 27, 2023 18:27
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Panfilo posted:It would certainly make a good thread. I hadn't thought about the idea that West Germans would pull the same gimmick. The part that really pinged this is the narrative that "the enemy captured our soldiers, and didn't return all of them, some of them could still be alive! Which is hosed up on a number of levels - it gives families false hopes, makes war criminals seem sympathetic, and whitewashes the whole conflict. A ReHistory thread where we talk about historic revisionism like the Lost Cause or West Germans.
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Jul 27, 2023 18:42
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Panfilo posted:It would certainly make a good thread. I hadn't thought about the idea that West Germans would pull the same gimmick. The part that really pinged this is the narrative that "the enemy captured our soldiers, and didn't return all of them, some of them could still be alive! Which is hosed up on a number of levels - it gives families false hopes, makes war criminals seem sympathetic, and whitewashes the whole conflict. And they're not even the first to do it! In 1918 France, despite being a victor of WWI (in so far as anyone was), had so many men unaccounted for after the armistice that newspapers are running editorials about how their MIAs are actually probably still living prisoners held by the dastardly bosche despite the end of hostilities! It's even more transparently ridiculous than the West German or American versions as Germany was starving to death in 1918 and had basically no functioning government, thus no reason to hold onto additional mouths to feed and no central authority to make it happen, and yet it was believed, albeit only for a few months as opposed to a decade in West Germany's case, or perpetually in America's.
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Jul 27, 2023 19:19
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In other conservative media news...  https://twitter.com/theserfstv/status/1684600056291442688?t=oacgSjwd997dVWNQYnUHfw&s=19
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Jul 27, 2023 19:23
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happyhippy posted:Need a new Vietnam to cull the young voters.
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Jul 27, 2023 19:34
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FlamingLiberal posted:The problem is that when you spend 20-30 years talking about a ‘war on the border’, eventually someone will take that idea seriously and it seems like that’s where a certain part of the GOP is now Which is the larger issue with the right wing generally. The people who consumed and sublimated what was only supposed to be the slop for the hogs to get for votes and politicians to give tax breaks and deregulation have started to take charge of the government.
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Jul 27, 2023 19:37
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I don’t think it helps that Dems mostly side with the GOP on border issues so there is rarely pushback
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Jul 27, 2023 19:42
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Mooseontheloose posted:A ReHistory thread where we talk about historic revisionism like the Lost Cause or West Germans. A Lost Cause thread would both be extremely my jam and bad for my blood pressure.
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Jul 27, 2023 20:23
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And then you had this: Stop with: Denazifying Deprivation of rights Disenfranchisement Stop with the citizen of second class Whoever wants equal rights of citizens votes FDP https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlussstrichdebatte Dump into deepl, though it struggles. (As do I, translating election posters is hard)
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Jul 27, 2023 22:47
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Mooseontheloose posted:
It's also just a total lack of sympathy. Or empathy for that matter. The go to move is "Suck It Up, Buttercup" because people suffering is a part of life and any attempt to understand the unique suffering and individual along the lines of "you think that's bad? Me/my mother/my friend once had something far worse happen to them" but rather than empathizing it becomes a race to the bottom to determine who suffered the most and that person gets to win. It's a lowering of the bar, similar to how anytime anything openly sucks in America, the conservative reply is to point out how much more lovely things are in several other countries. We're not allowed to feel pain or complain about traumatic things or hardships so long as someone else someplace else suffered more.
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Jul 28, 2023 01:07
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That's a weird fuckin' fetish of the Americans for sure. If you're the shining fuckin' light on the hill, the bastion of all that is good and holy of humanity and  , then why the gently caress do you keep comparing yourselves downwards?
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Jul 28, 2023 01:52
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Captain_Maclaine posted:West Germans after the war invested a lot of time and energy, consciously or not, in re-imagining themselves as victims of the war specifically to deflect for their very real complicity in the various atrocities of the Nazi state. In particular, they latched onto Soviet retention of POWs convicted of war crimes after 1946 when regular repatriation ended as evidence not only of communist brutality but also the imagined possibility that millions of their MIAs were actually still alive, and prisoners in the alleged "silent camps" all over the Soviet Union. During rally and demonstrations to show support for these imagined missing men, they appropriated Holocaust imagery and repurposed it for themselves, thus stealing victim status from the people they themselves helped to victimize. East Germans avoided this by simply blaming the evils of capitalism. But, yeah, no one likes to reckon with losing a war they caused. DPRK also has some rather fanciful theories about the Korean War for a similar reason.
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Jul 28, 2023 03:07
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Some Catholic reactionaries are condemning Oppenheimer for its anti-nuclear warfare message. I know George Weigel, for example, a biographer of Pope Benedict XVI, has engaged in apologetics for the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as has the National Review more recently. So I was pleasantly surprised when Crisis Magazine, as hard-right a Catholic publication as they come, didn't even mention the morality of nuclear weapons when shaming Oppenheimer. They're just terrified of boobs. quote:But Oppenheimer is unacceptable for different reasons; in fact, I’d argue it’s actually sinful to watch. I’m a huge fan of Christopher Nolan, the director of this historical piece on the development of the atomic bomb. When the movie was first announced, I planned to see it. However, I found out this weekend that the movie contains sexual scenes that contain nudity. Another no-brainer: no Catholic should watch Oppenheimer. My favorite part is when he counters a possible objection based on the historically valid use of nudity in art based by appealing to a hypothetical Renaissance-era person's response to a straw man. William Bear fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Jul 28, 2023 |
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Jul 28, 2023 07:24
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PT6A posted:East Germans avoided this by simply blaming the evils of capitalism. East Germany went a different route, which was to elevate and laud the vanishingly small number of anti-fascists resistance fighters as the only "good" Germans of the war and use them as the redemptive symbol around which to build the new state, all while being openly suspicious of returning prisoners and veterans as unreconstructed threats to any new peoples' regime (they got over those suspicions fairly quickly, though, due to the dire need for reconstruction labor). This was of course made all the easier for the KPD-forerunners of the SED what with the continuing presence of the Red Army and other Soviet security elements in the East.
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Jul 28, 2023 14:20
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:The right wing is going to have some real conflicts when Hunter Biden is using a second amendment defense in front of SCOTUS because his plea deal was imploded. Man conservatives are going to be pissed when this forces them to abandon logical consistency.
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Jul 28, 2023 18:45
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William Bear posted:https://crisismagazine.com/editors-desk/a-movie-isnt-worth-sinning-over quote:To make this clear, imagine asking a decently-formed Catholic of Michelangelo’s time, “Do you think it’s a sin to watch two people fornicate with each other?” The person would likely think you are the devil himself for just asking the question. But we’ve become so desensitized to this particular sin that we diminish, even deny, its intrinsically evil nature.
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Jul 28, 2023 18:49
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RFK slipping a little Nazi messaging into his rhetoric with the 1488.
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Jul 28, 2023 23:24
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I listen to a tiny bit of talk radio during the week and usually find myself speaking out in my mind rebutting the nonsense I hear and it got me to thinking a little bit. I know that left wing/lib and liberal talk radio has been a disaster every time it's been tried, for obvious reasons, mostly because advertisers don't like it and leftists don't typically like that kind of poo poo. REAL liberal media talk shows and and not CNN Fake News, NPR and MSNBC or something like Bill Maher which I think are all rather centrist. I guess John Oliver and The Daily Show came the closest to it but I still don't think they were unfair in their coverage. I wonder if there might be an audience for a Hannity & Colmes type of talk show where the "left wing" guy wasn't a moronic uninformed punching bag and some real debate takes place. I'm imagining something like Politically Incorrect, maybe, and with a touch of the vaudevillian aspects of Jerry Springer. Not that trashy but a format that creates legitimate, honest arguments where the debate gets heated, is sourced, and each person brings their own sound bites and has equal time. It would probably degenerate into a shouting contest that would render it unlistenable but, even if it managed not to, might be a ratings driver. Listeners would get fired up and want to call in more, especially the right wingers who want to shout down the lib and it MIGHT result in a bigger audience that draws in people other than the ones that just listen to this hateful horse poo poo all day. One could argue that Joe Rogan kind of does this and he has the biggest podcast in the world. Or something close. What's Jon Stewart up to these days? I think it could actually work or might be at least worth a try.
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Jul 28, 2023 23:59
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Where I'm at there's two big right wing radio and one's always talking about Hunter, and the other is talking about declining birthrates, and trans issues. It's like there's two people in the coalition and they can't decide who's the future
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Jul 29, 2023 00:09
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I don't think the right is interested in debate of any kind, their gut tells them that they're right and their media had better tell them the same. Any evidence that contradicts their worldview is immediately dismissed as being liberal biased. Afterall, what can those scientists and experts possibly know? Nothing beats that salt of the earth common sense. I've given up on that part of America, they're a lost cause. Too ignorant and too stupid to amount to anything else.
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Jul 29, 2023 00:18
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BiggerBoat posted:I listen to a tiny bit of talk radio during the week and usually find myself speaking out in my mind rebutting the nonsense I hear and it got me to thinking a little bit. I think the major problem with this is that most left wing/liberal talk shows fall into the Bill Maher camp. It's mostly talk from neoliberal leaning folks and just outright lacks the "entertainment" value that right wing talk shows tend to have. When you actually get a left wing talk show that gets entertaining (thinking of Chapo Trap House), it gets called "the dirtbag left" and isn't treated seriously. Bill Maher probably isn't the greatest example but every time I tune into a mainstream left wing pundit I'm either bored to tears or they punctuate their commentary with appeals to Capital.
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Jul 29, 2023 00:37
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This is also where Pod Save America fits in.
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Jul 29, 2023 02:26
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I just can't imagine an angry, red faced, lying rear end in a top hat working for the liberals. Too many smart people willing to call bullshit.
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Jul 29, 2023 02:57
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Vargatron posted:I think the major problem with this is that most left wing/liberal talk shows fall into the Bill Maher camp. It's mostly talk from neoliberal leaning folks and just outright lacks the "entertainment" value that right wing talk shows tend to have. When you actually get a left wing talk show that gets entertaining (thinking of Chapo Trap House), it gets called "the dirtbag left" and isn't treated seriously. Yeah, in contrast to the initial statement I think interest in anything similar to the right wing talk show model full of hard punches and entertainment is if anything stronger on the leftist side than the liberal side of the broader left. The problem is that even if audience pool were equal in numbers it would be a harder sell than it is for the right. Right-wingers get in line well; not every show is loved by every conservative but they usually don't fracture the same way so they can usually function as a generally happy fascist ecosystem. You're not going to make any kind of political entertainment talk show on any portion of the left-wing spectrum that a sizable portion of the left doesn't haaaate.
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Jul 29, 2023 02:59
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Turns out rich leftists both don't exist and can't afford to afford anything
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Jul 29, 2023 03:06
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Jesus III posted:I just can't imagine an angry, red faced, lying rear end in a top hat working for the liberals. Too many smart people willing to call bullshit. True, but you don't need to lie to talk poo poo to conservatives. They're the party that represents every type of bigot, why be hesitant to call them out for their moral depravity? This hesitancy is probably a big reason why right wing talking points become the baseline through so much of America: Democrats would rather lay low and leave their bullshit unanswered. Utterly terrified of conservative backlash. The main reason I refuse to call myself a Democrat is because none of the party leadership make a strong moral argument on why their vision for America is the morally righteous one. I could not give a single gently caress for how well something is focus grouped, but I admire someone that has strong moral convictions.
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Jul 29, 2023 03:09
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HootTheOwl posted:Turns out rich leftists both don't exist and can't afford to afford anything The governor of Illinois has been surprisingly good hasn't he?
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Jul 29, 2023 03:26
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Charlz Guybon posted:The governor of Illinois has been surprisingly good hasn't he? He has! But he's still a lib.
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Jul 29, 2023 03:27
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Mustang posted:True, but you don't need to lie to talk poo poo to conservatives. They're the party that represents every type of bigot, why be hesitant to call them out for their moral depravity? Keith Olbermann made a go of doing that for a while, but as it turns out centrist media channels don't have the stomach for anyone willing to even go as far as he did, which was absolutely nothing given the routine calls to race war of any given segment of Tucker Carlson back when he was still on the air..
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Jul 29, 2023 03:47
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The problem of doing talk radio/podcast poo poo is that it's still poo poo, regardless of the putative ideology involved. Reactionary aural enemy-punching in a long-term, highly passive medium doesn't produce nuanced or informed participants, and they're more primed for the form- ingroup-outgroup, sloganeering, and a lack of critical thought- than they are for the content.
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Jul 29, 2023 04:14
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And for leftists, the content is going to be especially poo poo because you can never talk to anyone you actually want to talk to, because they don't want to talk to you.
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Jul 29, 2023 04:33
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PT6A posted:And for leftists, the content is going to be especially poo poo because you can never talk to anyone you actually want to talk to, because they don't want to talk to you. So just like my dating experience?
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Jul 29, 2023 08:47
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Agents are GO! posted:So just like my dating experience? Exactly, except that masturbation in lieu of success is only metaphorical.
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Jul 29, 2023 13:45
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PT6A posted:Exactly, except that masturbation in lieu of success is only metaphorical. It's called posting
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Jul 29, 2023 14:03
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