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bunnyofdoom)
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As an avowed liberal I can tell you that I, and all progressively minded individuals like me are pro-crime. We love crime. It's the best. Nothing makes me happier than witnessing an assault. I would never commit one though. That would be gauche.
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Jul 29, 2023 03:09
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| # ? Jun 8, 2024 06:42 |
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I always knew this was the future Liberals wanted. Look, if you're the mayor, especially a progressive mayor, you need to make sure everyone knows how tough you are on crime. Every crime you need to be out there spittle flecked and screaming with rage. You see someone jaywalking? loving feed them the curb, on camera. Anything less is just fodder for your enemies. Someone shot a dog? Tanks in the streets. Martial law. Shut this poo poo down lest the police union suggest that you don't support them. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Jul 29, 2023 |
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Jul 29, 2023 03:13
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Oxyclean posted:I’m just gonna to assume the dog was killed in an officer involved shooting
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Jul 29, 2023 03:15
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The cops are a bunch of thugs.
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Jul 29, 2023 04:09
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Charles Bukowski posted:The cops are a bunch of thugs. As are criminals. Really makes you think, doesn't it? Mainly it makes me think about certain areas of the world where criminal organizations provide "law enforcement" and even a degree of social services because the legitimate authorities are so useless.
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Jul 29, 2023 04:29
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throughout history a huge majority of organized criminal groups formed as a direct result of resisting state oppression, often drawing from and for subaltern groups.
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Jul 29, 2023 05:31
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PT6A wishes they could brutally murder someone for stealing a coke from a 7-11. Can’t take the Conservative lust for vigilante justice out of these people despite “moving left”. loving thugs and yahoos, amirite?
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Jul 29, 2023 05:47
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Rockstar Massacre posted:throughout history a huge majority of organized criminal groups formed as a direct result of resisting state oppression, often drawing from and for subaltern groups. they bring certain modes of conflict resolution from all the way back in the old country, from the poverty of the Mezzogiorno, where all higher authority was corrupt
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Jul 29, 2023 06:01
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Vintersorg posted:PT6A wishes they could brutally murder someone for stealing a coke from a 7-11. I love how you and the rest of the posters don’t seem to have a rebuttal for the actual point PT6A was making - that progressives are really good at losing the messaging war and the perception of public safety is an arena where that seems to happen an awful lot - and opted instead to pull weirdly hyperbolic insults out of your rear end like a magician’s scarf? I mean PT6A’s made some real bad posts in the past but these kinda suck lol, might want to either try to get better material or see if there’s a proper rebuttal in there somewhere?
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Jul 29, 2023 06:09
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TheKingofSprings posted:I love how you and the rest of the posters don’t seem to have a rebuttal for the actual point PT6A was making - that progressives are really good at losing the messaging war and the perception of public safety is an arena where that seems to happen an awful lot - and opted instead to pull weirdly hyperbolic insults out of your rear end like a magician’s scarf? I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't know what you or PT6A or any hypothetical member of the public are expecting in terms of messaging from the mayor in the light of the two specific incidents being referenced by the TPA. What is it you think should be said? In the 16 days since Olivia Chow took office, what message should she have promoted to change this narrative? Why do you believe this incitement from the Toronto Police Association is indicative of any kind of greater public sentiment? infernal machines fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Jul 29, 2023 |
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Jul 29, 2023 06:17
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Violence sucks. Homeless people can't escape it. People in bad situations are more likely to react badly. Rhetoric about violent or criminal homeless people leads to violence against homeless people, not any actual solution (the only actual solution being permanent housing without conditions). I see far more people angry at homeless people for existing than people dismissing violence by homeless people.
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Jul 29, 2023 06:22
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PT6A posted:The average person who doesn't feel particularly strongly about politics sees Singapore and thinks "oh that looks nice" without much caring about how the sausage is made. That's what they want, they probably don't care how to get from here to there. If you can't figure out how to make that happen in a progressive framework, then make some fuckin' poo poo up that sounds good. The conservatives' way doesn't work either, but it sounds like it might. That's the standard you're competing against. Fighting lies and irrationality with more lies isn’t likely to be a winning proposition, the Conservatives are much better at it and they have access to a media apparatus that loves to continually reinforce it. infernal machines posted:I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't know what you or PT6A or any hypothetical member of the public are expecting in terms of messaging from the mayor in the light of the two specific incidents being referenced by the TPA. For the specific incident I don’t have any opinion, if that dog had so much as nipped the officer by accident it would’ve probably been crossing the thin blue line straight to the rainbow bridge so the idea that the mayor should be making a public statement or that any kind of parade is necessary is farcical to me personally. The pigs aren’t the solution to solving crime but the actually substantive solutions aren’t likely to manifest without at least some public persuasion to get support for them.
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Jul 29, 2023 06:25
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TheKingofSprings posted:I love how you and the rest of the posters don’t seem to have a rebuttal for the actual point PT6A was making - that progressives are really good at losing the messaging war and the perception of public safety is an arena where that seems to happen an awful lot - and opted instead to pull weirdly hyperbolic insults out of your rear end like a magician’s scarf? Well, you tell me: is this a well-thought out critique of progressive policies regarding public safety, or a laughably dismissive strawman that shows little understanding of what they actually are? PT6A posted:The progressive movement needs a solution other than saying, "oh, did m'lord get offended by seeing an unhoused person suffering from substance abuse disorder? Be more compassionate!" because whether or not that's a workable solution at large (and I'd suggest it pretty much is, none of our cities are particularly unsafe), people hate it and they will resent the politicians who offer no solution more than the ones offering a bad solution that sounds decent. I mean, I'm happy to hear more specifics about the sort of poo poo that should be made up to sound good to law & order types. I've heard the tired arguments about how "defund the police" is such a terrible slogan that ruined any prospects for police "reform", as if police departments are actually receptive to even the slightest incremental change. So by all means, outline this third way. Vintersorg posted:PT6A wishes they could brutally murder someone for stealing a coke from a 7-11. PT6A was clear that it is the unwashed masses who yearn for state violence, not enlightened posters here.
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Jul 29, 2023 07:08
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TheKingofSprings posted:The pigs aren’t the solution to solving crime but the actually substantive solutions aren’t likely to manifest without at least some public persuasion to get support for them. I don't think many people here disagree with you, but I also don't know what exactly you're looking for, from anyone, or in particular the mayor of Toronto.
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Jul 29, 2023 07:17
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TheKingofSprings posted:I love how you and the rest of the posters don’t seem to have a rebuttal for the actual point PT6A was making - that progressives are really good at losing the messaging war and the perception of public safety is an arena where that seems to happen an awful lot - and opted instead to pull weirdly hyperbolic insults out of your rear end like a magician’s scarf? This is basically how almost everyone in the country responds to political action that takes the form of criticism of party/community strategy and I'm personally experiencing a crisis where I cannot determine whether it's from ignorance or conservative counter-strategy It's like, poster: it would be cool if left-wing parties actually committed to messaging and action that incentivized people to engage with the system and support them other poster: Ugh, here comes the VOTING DOESN'T MATTER squad again, why don't you guys just go and hang yourselves already instead of depressing us with your UNREALISTIC POLITICAL EXPECTATIONS anyway let's all have a rousing discussion about how the housing crisis isn't real because the landlords said so
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Jul 29, 2023 07:29
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Politics makes strange bedfellows
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Jul 29, 2023 07:34
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Back to work legislation is back on the menu goons. BC port workers reject mediated agreement. https://www.bcmeanegotiations.com/i...in-the-balance/ BCMEA posted:The deal:
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Jul 29, 2023 07:37
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DrBox posted:I was going to go to Taste of Edmonton (food festival) downtown tomorrow, but someone was randomly stabbed today. It makes me not want to go downtown. Personally it seems like PT6A's post is /way/ more topical to situations like this here in Stabmonton, rather than Toronto's mayor having a lukewarm response to a police dog getting shot. A lot of people I know are upset with the lack of effective action taken against these sorts of random violent attacks. If the discourse on the left is that these people need housing unconditionally, free mental health support, and free addiction treatment, as well as a path to skill building and employment/education opportunities after they're on more stable footing, then they should put money where their mouth is and actually follow through on what they say needs to be done when they're in positions of power. Of course all of that is fairly expensive up front and comes with plenty of NIMBY pissing and moaning, so the Liberals just keep paying the issue lip service but then don't follow through and leave folk's frustration with the social disorder open to be exploited by "tough on crime" Conservatives. I dunno. Seems like that's what PT6A was kinda pointing out
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Jul 29, 2023 07:40
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So aside from unconditional housing (which means what exactly?) those other programs already exist. Underfunded certainly, but with mixed results that seem to indicate that the impact of substance use are still going to be a concern even with significant investment. Bringing up Singapore is relevant because their very draconian substance use laws are viewed as effective by many people. I mean, why not? ~19/100k people die yearly in Canada from opioids alone. Singapore is reported at ~0.26/100k for all substances. This doesn’t factor in the public safety and social cohesion issues that are seemingly more concerning for a lot of people. We don’t have analogous social, judicial, or political systems and I def don’t think we should be emulating them but I think there is concern that more progressive stances are affirming substance use as a human right that needs to have negative impacts mitigated with public resources, and this is not something they are willing to accept for substances such as opioids and meth. So law and order it is. my morning jackass fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Jul 29, 2023 |
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Jul 29, 2023 08:54
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my morning jackass posted:So aside from unconditional housing (which means what exactly?) those other programs already exist. Underfunded certainly, but with mixed results that seem to indicate that the impact of substance use are still going to be a concern even with significant investment. It means no conditioning on abstinence from drugs or alcohol or other similar barriers. You need housing? You get an apartment. Places have tried it and it works while being cheaper or at least no more expensive than the status quo. The programs available in Canada are not individual and shelters can be dangerous for a lot of people (to the point they feel safer on the street). Salvation Army shelters are especially bad, from what I've heard. No secure place to keep important items, important things confiscated or destroyed by staff, etc.
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Jul 29, 2023 09:06
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Mederlock posted:If the discourse on the left is that these people need housing unconditionally, free mental health support, and free addiction treatment, as well as a path to skill building and employment/education opportunities after they're on more stable footing, then they should put money where their mouth is and actually follow through on what they say needs to be done when they're in positions of power. Is there a single person in this forum on the left that would disagree with this? Of course we loving want so-called progressive politicians to actually do this when they get it in, and are perpetually disappointed. And the Liberals are not progressive or on the left, so of course they offer only mealy mouthed promises that go nowhere. I sincerely hope that Chow can make some progress in Toronto, but even if she wants to there are massive institutional barricades to that, including the right-leaning press, lack of resources, and the police system itself. Violence perpetuated by and on the unhoused community has a relatively straightforward first step towards a solution - give them housing. A comprehensive social housing program would offer an amazing return on investment for all levels. Adequate housing should be a right for everyone. Follow that with investing resources into an actual functioning mental health system that has availability now, not 4 weeks after someone is in crisis, along with drug programs accessible to all without fear of losing housing or work.
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Jul 29, 2023 13:15
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Gully Foyle posted:And the Liberals are not progressive or on the left, so of course they offer only mealy mouthed promises that go nowhere. Sounds like the sort of thing progressives should be calling out more loudly, more often. Instead, we have Singh musing about "what if we gave more money to homeowners?" If these so-called progressive mayors take their job seriously, they'll condemn the inaction by the federal and provincial government on these matters of importance.
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Jul 29, 2023 13:44
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infernal machines posted:I always knew this was the future Liberals wanted. Aside from housing I’d say crime is probably the biggest liability incumbent governments in Canada have right now, they all need to be seen to take it seriously. A party proposing stupid solutions will always have an advantage over one pretending that everything is ok when it’s not, the latter is seen as insulting by the public, a sign that governments don’t care about them. The post 1990 decline in crime reversed about a decade ago. The change happens around 2012-15 and is very obvious on StatsCan charts. There’s a big dip for covid but it rapidly returns to the previous trend afterwards. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/230727/dq230727b-eng.htm Fraud, robbery and murder are all climbing. I have family working in big box retail management who are telling me they are seeing serious deterioration - staff getting robbed at night, rising theft etc. My credit card got compromised somewhere this summer, first time I’ve had that happen. My dad’s truck was stolen out of a grocery store parking lot last year. Auto theft in Canada is out of control, up 300% from 2015. It’s so bad that some used car lots in West Africa have cars with Ontario plates still on them. Plates are normally removed when cars are sold through legitimate means in Ontario. These are not all luxury cars either, it’s Kias and Hyundais. https://globalnews.ca/news/9770709/auto-theft-canada-report/amp/ https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6396215 I’m not knowledgeable enough to know what the solutions are, but I can say for certain that pretending the problem isn’t real or serious is a losing proposition.
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Jul 29, 2023 13:47
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Fornax Disaster posted:I’m not knowledgeable enough to know what the solutions are, but I can say for certain that pretending the problem isn’t real or serious is a losing proposition. And what leads you to believe Olivia Chow is doing that? Like, we have had several posters now saying essentially "it is key that the mayor comes out and makes a statement that she opposes crime". But not really elaborating on why they think that the mayor does not oppose crime, beyond maybe the fact that the Toronto Police Association insinuated it. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Jul 29, 2023 |
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Jul 29, 2023 13:51
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What can mayors actually do about crime anyway? I was under the impression at the municipal level most cities are just broke. There's no money even if there were novel solutions?
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Jul 29, 2023 13:54
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Fornax Disaster posted:Aside from housing I’d say crime is probably the biggest liability incumbent governments in Canada have right now, they all need to be seen to take it seriously. A party proposing stupid solutions will always have an advantage over one pretending that everything is ok when it’s not, the latter is seen as insulting by the public, a sign that governments don’t care about them. 
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Jul 29, 2023 13:56
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Capital Letdown posted:What can mayors actually do about crime anyway? They can't even directly control the police budget, so not much. The province dictates the baseline services TPS has to provide, and the city has to fund that. The mayor can sit on the police services board, but she can't dictate where and how the budget is allocated, or even priorities for the police service. To be clear, the statement from TPA was made because their preferred candidate for mayor, former Police Chief Mark Saunders, didn't get elected. They'[re getting started early on painting an ostensibly progressive mayor as soft on crime because they think there's a chance she may not rubber stamp the traditional TPS budget increase this year. That's it.
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Jul 29, 2023 14:03
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infernal machines posted:And what leads you to believe Olivia Chow is doing that? What would be your reaction if she had nothing to say about housing?
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Jul 29, 2023 14:05
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It's a very silly hypothetical, because she obviously hasn't had nothing to say about housing, and also has municipal and legislative tools to address housing issues. The previous mayor had plenty to say about both housing and crime. Interestingly, he did not positively affect either in nine years of making public statements about them. So, again, why do you believe Olivia Chow is ignoring or otherwise silent on the subject of crime? You do understand that the assaults of an officer and a police dog, while two specific incidents of crimes, are not indicative of crime as a whole in the city of Toronto, right? Are you capable of mentally stepping beyond the fiction presented by the Toronto Police Association in a tweet? infernal machines fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Jul 29, 2023 |
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Jul 29, 2023 14:06
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eXXon posted:Hey MikeC, what do you think about this? Why are all cops such whiny baby assholes? I know that this poo poo probably resonates with the idiot Saunders voters but it makes them look like literal children whining that their mommy isn't paying them enough attention. Also, closing roads for a procession for a dog, come on. Maybe we should complain about this and not the bike lanes impacting traffic.
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Jul 29, 2023 14:28
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ZShakespeare posted:As an avowed liberal I can tell you that I, and all progressively minded individuals like me are pro-crime. We love crime. It's the best. Nothing makes me happier than witnessing an assault. I would never commit one though. That would be gauche. Yup. Crime ftw
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Jul 29, 2023 14:37
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Fidelitious posted:Why are all cops such whiny baby assholes? I'm going to say that there is evidence ITT of it being an effective strategy for them
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Jul 29, 2023 14:40
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infernal machines posted:It's a very silly hypothetical, because she obviously hasn't had nothing to say about housing, and also has municipal and legislative tools to address housing issues. https://beta.cp24.com/news/2023/7/28/1_6498269.html quote:The data shows that violent crime in Toronto, as measured by the index, was up 15 per cent year-over-year in 2022 compared to a Canada-wide increase of only four per cent. The police are saying it’s indicative of Toronto as a whole, the statistics support what they are saying. I don’t see how you can call it fiction. They see the deterioration first in their day to day work and they are trying to warn us about what they are seeing. And of course police budgets keep going up, the population is increasing and we have had a lot inflation the last few years. I’m not happy when my employer asks me to do more work without more resources, they won’t be either. I will concede a funeral procession for a police dog is a bit over the top, but people like dogs.
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Jul 29, 2023 14:53
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The police association is saying, literally, "she has not made a statement expressing her support or condolence for our members". This is as far as I can tell, true. Everything else you said is something you personally have read into the statement. The TPA is not otherwise commenting on her performance or policy because she has been on the job for 17 days. There is nothing else to comment on. Internet commentators have been blaming Chow personally for crimes occurring in Toronto since several days before she took office. I don't think that really merits discussion though. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Jul 29, 2023 |
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Jul 29, 2023 15:03
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Gully Foyle posted:Is there a single person in this forum on the left that would disagree with this? Of course we loving want so-called progressive politicians to actually do this when they get it in, and are perpetually disappointed. I don't think any folks here on the left would disagree with that, no. I just meant more the broader public's perception of "the left", and currently the Overton window has shifted such that the Liberal's brand is associated with being center left(despite in reality the NDP barely being able to claim being center at this point). Re: Chow, frankly I don't care about the current hullabaloo about a weak response to a cop getting hurt and a doggo being killed because it seems they got plenty of acknowledgement, and no I don't think any individual mayor has much direct power to influence it outside of being loudly vocal about these issues and pushing hard to get the higher levels of government to put up. They can use their platform to collaborate with other mayors and politicians to redirect the anger with the worsening situation at the incumbent government's inaction and point towards effective alternatives. PT6A posted:Sounds like the sort of thing progressives should be calling out more loudly, more often. Instead, we have Singh musing about "what if we gave more money to homeowners?" Basically this
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Jul 29, 2023 15:06
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Fidelitious posted:Why are all cops such whiny baby assholes? they've been conditioned to believe they should be respected and treated as heroes for simply existing and get mad when people don't give them the respect they think they deserve
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Jul 29, 2023 15:43
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I have to say, if John Tory ever gave a statement about a dog, I don't remember it. And I don't remember the cops whining about that either.
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Jul 29, 2023 15:59
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'that was a drat good pig dog'
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Jul 29, 2023 16:35
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Jimbozig posted:I have to say, if John Tory ever gave a statement about a dog, I don't remember it. And I don't remember the cops whining about that either. I'd be hard pressed to remember any specific statement John Tory made because the man absolutely loved making very long and content-less statements. He made an awful lot of them in nine years. In terms of actual execution, his record speaks for itself. He was the personification of the word "status quo"
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Jul 29, 2023 16:36
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| # ? Jun 8, 2024 06:42 |
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Jimbozig posted:I have to say, if John Tory ever gave a statement about a dog, I don't remember it. And I don't remember the cops whining about that either. I was watching some documentary about cults and the expert was saying how the leaders will often make their followers comply with ridiculous demands because they want to demonstrate the control they have over them. What the demands actually are doesn’t really matter, the compliance is the point. That's what the TPA demanding a new mayor show adequate respect to a dead dog reminds me of.
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Jul 29, 2023 16:38
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