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Well, I mean, Wargames Atlantic which does historicals is entering the STL space. I don't know if they were too big to be considered garage though; I never purchased anything from them. But I know smaller studious like Victoria miniatures are also getting into STLs and sciocast. I don't know if sciocast is a reasonable alternative for garage folks though; the machine itself costs 80k, so I would assume Victoria miniatures just did a production run on someone else's machine when they did their kickstarter. Although STLs have an advantage over both sciocast and spin casting in that you can print geometries that are not friendly to traditional production methods. I would imagine a lot of the garage shops will over time transition to digital distribution, but perhaps sublet the production to a number of other companies already doing that.
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Jul 29, 2023 22:28
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spectralent posted:Yeah, no, entirely fair, but that's not the business garage historicals shops (or sci fi/fantasy equivalents) are in. People selling STLs are in a different, and for the most part entirely new, industry. Despite the truly vast numbers of STLs out there the actual numbers of resulting physical prints is a big unknown. I suspect most of these are being made for the RPG market rather than wargaming or certain niches where they do especially well - 6mm comes to mind. I guess to circle around to the original statement - STL farms are certainly low cost but they do seem to have a problem translating into actual physical product. It feels like the Star Citizen business model - make lots of pretty pictures (STLs) most of which will never see the light of day. But hey, they are dirt cheap at least. There has to be a saturation point somewhere as there's probably only so many variations of space rat men or Napoleonic Hussar STLs out there that people will pony up the cash for, and that's not even accounting for the inevitable ease of pirating. At least with a recast someone has to spend a significant amount of effort making the mould (which limits what they will want to recast) but for STLs hey just get em and undercut the producers. Edit ^^^ Why would you use printed resin as a production material though. It is fantastically fragile and the tough engineering stuff is so expensive you might as well use metal. Garage shops that can do everything in-house will keep everything in-house as the margins are really razor thin. Brigade and GZG can undercut everyone else in the market because they do their own production. Z the IVth fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jul 29, 2023 |
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Jul 29, 2023 22:32
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Maybe it's the circles I look in but pirating STLs isn't really a thing I've noticed. Perhaps there's a big GW network for it but no one is asking for a codeword to get at those sweet, sweet Russian dragoon files or anything.
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Jul 29, 2023 22:46
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You're never going to see a 100% transition to STL sales with 0 production overhead because this means the production overhead goes to the user and bluntly, it's sometimes a bit of a faff. I have a 3D printer and I like it and it hasn't remotely replaced me buying actual models because by and large, actual models don't require me to wear a respirator to assemble them, and the process is fun fiddly fingers time with creative decisions about posing and not uploading something to a USB and waiting four hours. People with cheap rented (or bought forever ago) industrial units and a spincast machine are going to have a place for the forseeable future. Wargames atlantic is distinctly not one of those places, incidentally; they're doing STLs as an accessory to, and sometimes pilot scheme of, 200k+ HIPS injection moulding. The guys we're talking about are like, Peter Pig, Brigade, and Baccus. Their equipment is going to run to like a few hundred to a few thousand per mould batch and be absurdly low cost once those overheads are taken care of. spectralent fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jul 29, 2023 |
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Jul 29, 2023 22:54
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I get it, it's messy and a pain in the rear end but I'm the opposite. I haven't bought a model in... three years? But I've printed hundreds.
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Jul 29, 2023 22:56
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Springfield Fatts posted:Maybe it's the circles I look in but pirating STLs isn't really a thing I've noticed. Perhaps there's a big GW network for it but no one is asking for a codeword to get at those sweet, sweet Russian dragoon files or anything. It's not random end users pirating STLs, it's a big print farm in China/Ukraine/Russia getting a hold of it and outright selling the finished product. Probably less of a problem with the latter 2 these days but they might stop blowing themselves up sometime soon. But you're right, no one is ever going to pirate Russian dragoons from Peter Pig because the returns are just nonviable. However if some recast house got a hold of a Russian dragoon stl it would cost them nothing but a few lines of text in a database to start selling it.
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Jul 29, 2023 23:02
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I suppose that could be the case, and I see people reselling STLs on Etsy, but frankly STLs are so inexpensive already it is not worth the effort to pirate. Its like music; I guess I could pirate anything I want to listen to but it is just really easy to use spotify instead and pay the 10 bucks a month. For 20 dollars I picked up enough STLs to print out an entire Empire style army for old world, purchased directly from the producer. No reason to go on dodgy pirate sites to pick up those files.
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Jul 29, 2023 23:14
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I haven’t used my 3d printer in years because it’s too much of a pain when I could just buy metal models. I also just prefer metal as a material, but I understand I’m in the minority there. Also there haven’t been enough painted models posted, so have this Crusader I did recently: 
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Jul 29, 2023 23:16
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Z the IVth posted:It's not random end users pirating STLs, it's a big print farm in China/Ukraine/Russia getting a hold of it and outright selling the finished product. Probably less of a problem with the latter 2 these days but they might stop blowing themselves up sometime soon. I guess this is something I've never considered, there is this odd middleground that develops in model spaces where people will post pictures of a miniature and it's either "STL source?" or some random old guy asking if someone could print it for them. I always wonder why not just get a $100 printer yourself and go ham. Guess I shouldn't judge, I mean just recently paid a guy to print some bases for me because I don't have an FDM printer and it would be a waste of resin on my end.
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Jul 29, 2023 23:24
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Springfield Fatts posted:. I always wonder why not just get a $100 printer yourself and go ham. Guess I shouldn't judge, I mean just recently paid a guy to print some bases for me because I don't have an FDM printer and it would be a waste of resin on my end. For me it’s living in an apartment. Even before the kid, having a printer simply wasn’t feasible, now it’s absolutely out of the question. There’s a rather big facebook group here in Sweden just for matching people offering printing services to people looking for someone to print for them. Lots of people can’t have a printer at home even if they’d want to. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Jul 29, 2023 |
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Jul 29, 2023 23:30
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And, again, it's a fuckin' pain in the rear end sometimes. You need to have the time to do it whereas modelling can be very pick-up-and-put-down.
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Jul 29, 2023 23:43
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lilljonas posted:For me it’s living in an apartment. Even before the kid, having a printer simply wasn’t feasible, now it’s absolutely out of the question. There’s a rather big facebook group here in Sweden just for matching people offering printing services to people looking for someone to print for them. Lots of people can’t have a printer at home even if they’d want to. It's this really. I'm fortunate enough to live in a house and no matter how I slice it I can't fit a 3D printer safely into the living space. I don't even want to imagine how it's like in an apartment. People championing STL distribution make the assumption that any end user can simply print what they want. In reality most people don't have 3D printers and will rely on someone else to execute the print for them, which is not really that different from buying a finished product from a shop. And the market doesn't bear out 3D printing as the optimal manufacturing process for miniatures. It's the best given certain subjects but traditional methods will beat it if you don't play to it's advantages. Springfield Fatts posted:I guess this is something I've never considered, there is this odd middleground that develops in model spaces where people will post pictures of a miniature and it's either "STL source?" or some random old guy asking if someone could print it for them. I always wonder why not just get a $100 printer yourself and go ham. Guess I shouldn't judge, I mean just recently paid a guy to print some bases for me because I don't have an FDM printer and it would be a waste of resin on my end. I've seen artists selling their stls of Marvel characters for $20 and seen those very same designs available for sale in resin for less from China.
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Jul 29, 2023 23:45
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Yeah. I think the sheer convinience factor of, essentially, not having to manufacture your own products, is something that's being deeply underestimated.
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Jul 30, 2023 00:08
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Yeah if I didn't have a garage I probably wouldn't have one, not because of a kid but my idiot dog would poison himself as soon as he was left alone with the machine or access to an opened bottle. Anyways, here's some ships I'm working on as a gift! Guess what book series the guy likes. 
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Jul 30, 2023 00:29
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Springfield Fatts posted:I get it, it's messy and a pain in the rear end but I'm the opposite. I haven't bought a model in... three years? But I've printed hundreds. this is me as well. but i dedicate the time and effort to it that i understand not everyone has. but i like the low barrier to entry that printed models have so i dont mind the extra legwork the future is almost certainly exclusively manufacturer printed models instead of injection plastic moulded or a 3d printer in every house. i worked for 5 years designing robots and automation cells for injection moulding factories and the 3d printing technology on the horizon is incredible. but ultimately it's a way off for the little guy and certainly a decade + for the guy at home
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Jul 30, 2023 01:00
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Springfield Fatts posted:Yeah if I didn't have a garage I probably wouldn't have one, not because of a kid but my idiot dog would poison himself as soon as he was left alone with the machine or access to an opened bottle. If it were based on the movie, the the Surprise and Rose would be identical
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Jul 30, 2023 01:00
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I have a house and a garage but I work in IT and I would rather spend my hobby time painting and modeling instead of tinkering with drivers and waiting for a print to come out wrong. Also like 75-80% of 3d printed figures I have seen look crappy compared to Perrys, Footsore, etc.
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Jul 30, 2023 02:10
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I've been 3D printing (both FDM and resin) for going on 3 years now, and while I'm a big advocate for it, I can definitely understand why people don't want to fiddle with 3D printing their own stuff. Not talking about the safety reasons (though those are very important considerations, of course), but about the fact that 3D printing as it currently stands is very much a hobby in its own right. I can understand why people don't like the idea of downloading a file, slicing it, printing it and hoping it comes out OK, and either trashing it if it didn't, or having to do the post-processing on it if it did. It's definitely an investment of both time and money. With all that said, there's nothing like the feeling when a print does go right, and you pull it off the printer and do whatever cleanup/post-processing you need to do with it, and knowing you just created your model or mini basically out of thin air. It's a really neat feeling. 
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Jul 30, 2023 02:24
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I think the post processing is significantly easier for 3d prints than most commercial resin or metal kits I have ever picked up.
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Jul 30, 2023 02:29
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That's true. No sprue clippings, mold lines or pewter chunks to file off, you never need to pin pieces, and if you did your supports right the model peels right out with no scarring. For me it was the scalable volume. I was doing a 15mm WW2 project and it was either pay out the rear end for metal figures or have way, way too many left over from a plastic set than I would ever use.
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Jul 30, 2023 02:44
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IncredibleIgloo posted:I think the post processing is significantly easier for 3d prints than most commercial resin or metal kits I have ever picked up. Oh it definitely is, once you get it down to a routine. I do mostly resin printing and it takes me maybe 30 minutes tops to get prints cleaned, supports removed, and dried to where they can be UV cured. Springfield Fatts posted:That's true. No sprue clippings, mold lines or pewter chunks to file off, you never need to pin pieces, and if you did your supports right the model peels right out with no scarring. For me it was the scalable volume. I was doing a 15mm WW2 project and it was either pay out the rear end for metal figures or have way, way too many left over from a plastic set than I would ever use. And in terms of 3D printing stuff for things like WW2 historical wargames, the world's practically your oyster. I got in on the "March to Hell WW2" Kickstarters that 3DBreed did, and I have enough WW2 stuff just from those to last me a very long time indeed.
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Jul 30, 2023 02:51
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I was definitely one of those people who works in IT and didn’t want to spend my time on the computer in their modelling time, but I thought I’d take the plunge (partially because those irregular 2 mm figures are so bad, and by themselves would have fun day about half of my printer cost). Almost all of the files I’ve got have been either pre-supported or have worked totally fine with automatic supports - literally just one click. And exporting them as slices is another one click. The only head scratcher is trying to fit as much as possible and be as time efficient as possible. However, I realise that setting things to print overnight is the most sensible option because I’m not going to check on anything and generally doesn’t matter how long it takes to print. My initial “print everything!” enthusiasm has moderated slightly, but it’s not clear to me what I would want to buy rather than print going forward? But I am almost exclusively working in 8 to 10mm at the moment where the overall effect is far more important than individual figures.
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Jul 30, 2023 07:13
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I think a lot of folks may have based their impression of 3d printing on the state of the art from a few years ago. The files and slicers are getting better all the time, and the printers are too. People seem to overestimate the hassle of a failed print. All modern printers have a vat clean function, and if we are printing 32mm figures you are out a couple bucks at most for a failure. The printers also have the added benefit that you can print the figures again if you want to paint a different nation or equip different things for the meta. For me they are freeing as well; I don't worry about messing up a 35 dollar single figure priced that way because they are a leader. I print off 3 or 4 leaders and paint them up and can just chuck the ones I don't like and am only out a buck or two.
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Jul 30, 2023 07:57
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Note: the formatting conversion from html to bbcode isn't perfect, so a read of this with much better formatting on MY BLOG Following the BATTLE OF WATERLOO, and the defeat of the EMPEROR NAPOLEON, The Duke of Wellington conducted some wargame exercises under new rules named GLORY IS FLEETING. The rules are a vast upgrade from the previous FIELD OF GLORY NAPOLEONIC. The Duke watched as a a corps from his victorious army from the battle of Waterloo, faced off against one representing his old corps from the war in Spain and Portugal in 1811. As the Anglo-Portuguese army forms up in a positional defence from entrenchments, the Corps from Waterloo attempts a flexible defence... At the first official tournament for the new rules called GLORY IS FLEETING, my first of 2 games was against another British army of a later period- 1815 British Infantry Corps. Being a 100 days army it was actually made up of more foreigners than my own, with Dutch Cavalry and Hanoverian's rounding out a smaller elite British core. There were I think 18 players from Australia and New Zealand, including the writers of the new rules and army list. I wish I'd had more time to ask more questions but I was glad I went.  The battlefield, facing North East. The brown and green hill in the centre rear is a rough hill. The far left has a graveyard and chapel. The hills on my side to the the south (right) are gentle hills. 2 roads go down the centre and centre right. A smaller gentle hill is to the north in the centre near a small village. Dutch Dragoons are coming down the centre road from the north, towards entrenchments a Portuguese brigade emplaced within them. We rolled for location and I won, so Spain/Portugal it was.We both had skilled commanders and he blocked a flanking attack (Drat. I really wanted to use my Flank Division for it). I wanted to use my entrenchments so picked Positional Defense. He picked Flexible Defense so I was the defender (both British armies picked a defender mission. Huh). A road went down the centre to my free large defenders hill. A 2nd hill on my right flank with a rough hill on this side with another road going to a town. A churchyard was on my left flank and could act as a strongpoint. Another hill was on his back line and a stream in the far left corner (off camera) that didn't effect the battle. I put a road in the centre right to act as my Line of Communication to make it easier to defend. As the defender I placed by Spanish Guerrillas in the Strongpoint. I figured they could act as a area denial, wouldn't matter much if I lost them, and had a chance to act as a distraction or make a run for his Line of Communication. I put my two entrenchments in front of my LOC and put the Portuguese Division in it, with one unit in reserve behind the two Lines of Torres Vedras. My Corps Commander went on top of the main hill because it was dramatic. I placed the Flank Division on the right, the 1st Division in the centre behind then large defending hill, and the Cavalry Division on their right, all in reverse slope (so they didn't deploy yet). The "enemy" army had a strong cavalry division of more heavy horse than I had (2 heavy dragoon units) and a light cavalry unit. I noted his LOC would perhaps be unguarded to my Spanish irregulars. Just like me, most of army was deployed in reverse slope so wouldn't appear to their first turn. I figured he'd have 1 division in reserve ready to come on, and 2 behind the hills, and would come down the centre of my line. I would keep my cavalry to face his and lure him into attacking my redoubts with the flank division outflanking his advance on the right and my 1st Division holding the left. I knew I had less heavy cavalry so would need to hold them off or fight them to a draw. My infantry would then win the day holding the high ground and pivot on the fortifications in the centre, forcing him to fight on a hill with rough terrain with disrupted units and cutting his firepower by half.... That was the plan...and no plan survives enemy contact....or my own memory.  Portuguese units in the Line of Torres Vedrus. Conscripts on the left, regular army troops in the centre and right. The 2 line infantry units have a skirmish attachment. The commander is competent. The very unfinished LOC is to their rear.  Most of the army is behind the reverse slope so isn't deployed until turn 1.  Looking towards the "enemy" advance units  Enemy Infantry on the (rough terrain) north ridge The first enemy division to appear came over the north ridge, slowed down by the rough terrain on top of it. Five brigades with 2 batteries of artillery and an attached company of riflemen lead by a skilled general. One of the units has a brilliant commander attached to a rifle brigade. but looking at it now the division is going to be hard to rally I would think if under sustained attack. The rifle brigade is very expensive and very good at shooting. I just realized as I wrote this, is that if I'd engaged him WHILE HE WAS ON THAT ROUGH HILL, his firepower would be have been cut down by HALF!!!! I had lured him into a trap to fight on ground of my own choosing....and forgot to fire my Death Stars Laser!  Enemy reinforcements come from reserve The 2nd enemy infantry division was smaller- 4 units (one large, 3 small). They had 2 more artillery batteries. The Dutch cavalry division had 2 heavy dragoons and one light unit with an horse artillery battery attached.  My Corps HQ looks towards the enemy advance before retiring behind the hill  Doing what Wellington would do: keep the majority of the army in cover behind the hill lines On my first turn, my units in the reverse slope appeared on the table. On the left I placed my Cavalry Division of 1 Super Heavy Shock Dragoons (with an attached Royal Horse Artillery battery), 1 Dashing Hussar unit, and 1 Poor Portuguese Dragoon unit in support. On the same hill to their left I placed my First Division: 2 large British Line brigades with an attached rifle battalion and Royal Artillery battery, 1 small Highlander regiment of foot and 1 Portuguese line infantry brigade. On the far right flank I placed my Flank Division. The 95th Rifles, Loyal Lusteruian Legion, and a KGL brigade with riflemen and an artillery battery. I hoped to lure the enemy to attack my obviously weakened centre, and then flank it with both divisions, or at least the Flank Division. My Cavalry would hold one flank secure.  First Division with British Line Infantry brigade in front, another behind and the Portuguese and Highlander regiments to their rear  And on their left, placed one of the large British Line brigades. One Portuguese regiment is in reserve.  The 1st Division forms a more solid line to their left.  The Cavalry Division splits off to be in a position to hold the gap between the graveyard and hill.  The Spanish Irregulars defend the graveyard and church. I didn't expect the Irregulars to do much, but holding the far left flank gave them a zone of some control, and might be in a position later to make a run for the enemy LOC.  The enemy division starts to cross the rough hill  The other infantry division advances to their support.  The enemy horse starts to move towards the gap.  My cavalry watch them approach.  As do the guerrillas.  The 95th Rifle Brigade and KGL observe from the eastern ridge line.  The enemy horse moves en-mass into the gap.  The enemy infantry line up in one enormous line of troops It looks like my plan might work- if he advanced his whole line as one I'd be able to catch it in the sides, assuming I could hold his cavalry off. I had a choice to make. My horse was lighter in weight to his- I could probably win with the Heavy Dragoons but would lose with my Hussars vs his Dragoons. I could either leave the Portuguese (poor) light cavalry as rear support, or send them in as well to try and win the initial engagement. If I won, I would be spent and at a disadvantage later, but I might rout his units and cause a chaining failure cascade. Very well. CHARGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  The cavalry charge and the enemy dragoons counter charge.  I moved up my Flank Division to be further forward to be in a position to flank the enemy infantry. I thought at this point he was going to go forward against my weak centre, so placed my flank division in a position to...flank him.  I placed my centre more in line, with a reserve Portuguese regiment.  Same with the left, with the Highlander unit in reserve.  Battle ensues He had more dice in his charge, with the heavy unit and rear support - 19 to15.  Needing 4+ to hit He got more hits, but had to spread the damage around my 3 units while I only had 2. 12 to 10 is some good rolling for me. Note I was told I needed to drop hits that when you lost 1 out of 2 dice when wavering/disordered, but it rolls DOWN not UP (I worked that out next game) so I missed out on an extra hit here, but I don't think it changed much. Note I have moved the Spanish Guerrillas out of the Graveyard - they are making a mad dash to the the enemy's line of communication far to the north. If they can get there in 3 turns, his LOC is broken and every morale roll gets +1 harder. Considering you need a 5+ roll on 2d6, it makes it a 6 roll on a 2d6, so you fail nearly every morale roll.  Damage all around My Hussars and Dragoons were only disordered, one of his units was wavering and the other one disordered. The Portuguese cavalry fled and was wavering (off camera to the south).  The Portuguese Cavalry reforms at a great distance, as the Dragons recover and the enemyt cavalry routs! I'm not sure how it happened, but the end result was my Hussars and his 2 units of Dragoons routed, my Portuguese were wavering some distance back and my Dragons were disrupted.  The Dutch light cavalry run down the Spanish irregulars. He still had a light cavalry unit in reserve, who turned around and ran down the irregulars. Irregulars hit in the flank or rear get -4 dice...which means they get NOTHING. Lesson learnt- don't let irregulars gets charged in the flank or rear. I wasn't too distressed, I was happy to get his cavalry away from my disrupted Dragoons to their south.  My Dragoons move into position to charge in his infantry line in the flank. His light cavalry reformed far to the rear, and I had 1 turn to charge in.  Overview of the battle With the cavalry fight over, his infantry line advanced, but it was slowed down by the rough hill he was on. My Portuguese cavalry were still wavering on the far left, and they were too far away for a commander to rally them for the rest of the battle. I should have advanced my right flank and shot his left flank to pieces! Being on the rough hill cuts their firepower down by half.  His right wing division advances  Skirmishes advance! I had 10 skirmish dice to his 9. I really needed a light infantry unit with the division to get 5-6 more dice.  He wins the skirmish fight! Despite have more dice, he got 2 skirmish marker on my units. The skirmish battle is vastly improved over FOGN - it's a separate fight and if you win (5+ per dice) you get a marker on the enemy unit (they trade 1-1).  The skirmish fire makes my units disrupted With a skirmish marker on each unit, I needed to make a morale roll on both...and I failed on 5+ 2d6. Meaning both units are now disrupted and get their firepower and charging cut in half!  Volley fire I'm not sure what happened here, but I think we got into volley fire range with some of the units.  Overview My Portuguese unit on the left was wavering and had a skirmish maker on it, one of his units in the centre was disrupted. My Dragoons were now in a position to charge his line. They were spent but had recovered their morale. His cavalry was behind but a turn too late to stop it. My left unit was wavering with a skirmish maker on it, one of my centre units had routed, and his unit north of it was disrupted. My turn to shoot, charge and I can roll up his entire division! Now witness the firepower of a fully charging brigade of SUPER SHOCK HEAVY HORSE with no stopping and no pausing! Post battle note: I THINK I could have wheeled the unit AND charged. Dammit.  Night falls! What!? Battle over ...and the tournament organizer came over, said something...and was game over. I didn't get a chance to do my last turn  I missed the last turn to get a win A video of what probably happened to stop me putting my plan into action can be seen at youtube I lost 15 points to 10. One more turn :  The enemy army list See my earlier posts here and here for post game thoughts. I do think the new rules are vastly improved over the old ones!
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Jul 30, 2023 12:39
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IncredibleIgloo posted:I think the post processing is significantly easier for 3d prints than most commercial resin or metal kits I have ever picked up.
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Jul 30, 2023 13:58
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I don't have to wear gloves, respirator or scrub my workspace of toxic residue when I
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Jul 30, 2023 14:03
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I picked up Blood and Steel at Historicon because I love skirmish games, and I couldn't find any reviews online of it. I wonder if nobody reviewed it because of the photography? I'm no golden daemon winner, but dang. These minis are bad. 
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Jul 30, 2023 14:52
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Z the IVth posted:I don't have to wear gloves, respirator or scrub my workspace of toxic residue when I I don't have to scrub my workspace either, I have a silicone mat laid down to catch any stray resin drips, and usually those only happen when I'm moving the build plate to the wash and cure station (which is on the same work table). A few spritzes of rubbing alcohol and a couple paper towels is all I need to clean up a few drips. The other stuff, yes, but once the resin is cured in UV light, it's perfectly safe to work with (except for sanding, but only because it's like any other resin figure when sanded).
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Jul 30, 2023 15:21
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I don't have to scrub my workspace either, I have a silicone mat laid down to catch any stray resin drips, and usually those only happen when I'm moving the build plate to the wash and cure station (which is on the same work table). A few spritzes of rubbing alcohol and a couple paper towels is all I need to clean up a few drips. The other stuff, yes, but once the resin is cured in UV light, it's perfectly safe to work with (except for sanding, but only because it's like any other resin figure when sanded). Yeah my issue is with the stray resin drips - I've had a few episodes of pretty nasty dermatitis from resin contact (admittedly this is 2 part polyurethane with is nastier) but it is very easy to accidentally smear the stuff and it doesn't really dry off and become inert so everything it touches including the paper towels is contaminated. I guess with UV resin it will cook off if you expose everything to UV but then again it's faff you don't have to put up with when you're dealing with plastic and metal. Again if you have a a dedicated "dirty" area to deal with this it isn't a problem but if you have to share surfaces it's another story. I've also seen enough acrylate sensitisation in my day job to know it will happen. One day its not just gonna be those women with gel nails, it's gonna be the sweaty nerd with a printer in his office.
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Jul 30, 2023 16:00
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Z the IVth posted:Yeah my issue is with the stray resin drips - I've had a few episodes of pretty nasty dermatitis from resin contact (admittedly this is 2 part polyurethane with is nastier) but it is very easy to accidentally smear the stuff and it doesn't really dry off and become inert so everything it touches including the paper towels is contaminated. I guess with UV resin it will cook off if you expose everything to UV but then again it's faff you don't have to put up with when you're dealing with plastic and metal. Again if you have a a dedicated "dirty" area to deal with this it isn't a problem but if you have to share surfaces it's another story. It seems odd to compare acrylates which are in direct contact with someone's body for weeks at a time to a process in which people wear protective gear. Stereolithographic printing has been used for 40 years now at this point, with multiple large scale adaptations and uses that have been scrutinized by OSHA and industrial hygiene engineers. Realistically people probably endanger their health more frequently with their airbrushes. I think you have a really weird dislike for 3D printing and I couldn't figure out why until you said you had your own garage business, and now it all makes sense. Sorry dude, the times are changing and I can make better stuff in my garage.
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Jul 30, 2023 18:45
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As penance for 3D print chat: a game of Chain of Command, US Airborne vs German infantry. It all looks a bit poo poo because I'm in the middle of making both the guys and the terrain but I'm definitely in a playable state and I'm impatient, so hey!  Our JOPs, playing probe - US on the far side. We basically denied the open flank for kind of obvious reasons!  Early manuevers sees the Germans getting two of three squads on the table - and a Panzer IV. The US take some fire from the MGs on overwatch as they emerge in the cornfields, but these are crack paratroopers and it doesn't amount to much.  The mortars rain down hell on the infantry in the cornfield while the firebase in the woods plugs them with MG fire - they'll be badly shocked and spend most of this game hunkering down. Meanwhile, low and slow through the cornfield for our paras who're to make the break off the enemy edge. At the back of the board, the tiny M5 rumbles onto the field.  The Germans move up, trying to pin the US in the field between a hastily dropped blocking force and a squad screened by thick hedges. The US are going cautious, and it's proving wildly effective, with concentrated fire from the tank and machineguns amounting to precious little to stop the slow but seemingly unstoppable move south.  But they fail to account for the firebase in the woodland - sitting on overwatch, they wait until the germans become visible past the bushes, and the fire takes a terrible toll - worse still when the Stuart jumps on the pinned platoon and rakes it over with machinegun fire, leaving hardly any of it left (and narrowly not hitting the platoon CO) - though it eats a hit from the panzerfaust and the crew beat a rapid and sensible retreat.  With the squad near the bridge in tatters, the airborne continue across the river and take cover in the hedgerows - unconfident of their ability to take out the yanks by sitting and shooting, the blocking squad pushes up, though tank fire and hand grenades do nothing and they fall short of assault! And then, in a moment of pressure, the para's CO gives the go order - believing the remaining squad is going to prove easy pickings for a crack paratrooper squad. Mortars rain down, the bazooka strikes the tank, killing the driver and sending the crew into panic, and the paratroopers charge.  It's a disaster. The German squad is mauled to near breaking - but almost every paratrooper who had spent so long carefully crawling towards their objective is dead, the CO standing in horror in the field at what his decision has done. And worse, they're now very far from the objective.  The CO takes it upon himself to cross that river and scout that objective, and his second in the woodland firebase quickly organises the unit into two - squad 1, with machineguns, is to give the remaining german squad enough to think about they don't try and relieve the panzer, and the other half of the squad is to support the lieutenant. But the panzer is back online - with bloody-minded spite, the tank commander orders the crew back in line, and the dead man dumped to one side, and sends tank shells and machinegun rounds into the squad and CO with relentless abandon...  But, it's not enough. With the 75mm of a Panzer centered squarely on them, diving under a hail of bow MG fire, the CO and the rifle team break off the board, and begin their reconnaissance. Hopefully it was worth it. --- God, assault is nasty. Definitely need to soften up a platoon I'm charging a bit more! I do want to play more earlier war stuff - while I don't hate CoC's tank penetration mechanic, it's really a formality when you have AT weapons with 13 dice against tanks with 4 armour on the field; sitting in that EW zone where you've got AT 3 guns against armour 4 tanks or whatever feels like it might be a bit more interesting with something really riding on the rolls. spectralent fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Jul 30, 2023 |
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Jul 30, 2023 19:35
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Z the IVth posted:Yeah my issue is with the stray resin drips - I've had a few episodes of pretty nasty dermatitis from resin contact (admittedly this is 2 part polyurethane with is nastier) but it is very easy to accidentally smear the stuff and it doesn't really dry off and become inert so everything it touches including the paper towels is contaminated. I guess with UV resin it will cook off if you expose everything to UV but then again it's faff you don't have to put up with when you're dealing with plastic and metal. Again if you have a a dedicated "dirty" area to deal with this it isn't a problem but if you have to share surfaces it's another story. There's still faff you have to deal with when it comes to plastic and metal minis, too, it's just a different type of faff. You can still slip and cut yourself with a hobby knife. You have to wear a mask when sanding resin minis (regardless of whether they're traditionally cast resin or 3D printed with UV resin). Doing anything with enamels or oil washes? Many of the thinners used for those things have their own health and safety hazards, as do many of the chemicals for stripping minis (some of which, like Simple Green or Purple Power, will take the first layer of skin off your hands if you're dumb enough to dunk your hands into 'em), or certain cleaners for airbrushes and paint brushes. Hell, there are even certain paints that it's absolutely unsafe to spray thru an airbrush without the proper protective gear. 3D printer resin isn't like xenomorph acid blood; as long as you treat it carefully like you would any other potentially hazardous household chemical (such as bleach or oven cleaner) and take the proper precautions, you shouldn't have any mishaps. Yes, I agree that you don't want it anywhere you're worried about it potentially contaminating something (I have seen YouTube vids where someone set up a resin printer on their kitchen counter or living room floor, which caused me to literally cringe in terror), but again that's just using your common sense when determining if a 3D printer is right for you.
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Jul 30, 2023 19:43
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The point isn't that 3D Printing Bad, the point is that there's never going to be a period in the hobby where every miniatures wargamer has a 3D printer and all the industry needs to do is provide STLs, thereby entirely eliminating the overhead of storing and producing product and making it a reasonable comparison to the garage model sector of the industry. It's apples to oranges, and in a very appropriate way, because they are both fruit, but nobody's using them for the exact same things, even if their uses are pretty similar and boil down to consumer preference. Also, Z isn't raising their previous industry experience because they're a cranky old man who can't move with the times; they're using it to offer the evidence point that the overhead of doing the above is, in fact, pretty low.
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Jul 30, 2023 19:46
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Loving these battle reports, thank you both for posting I have four Canopus-class pre-dreadnoughts in the oven and a white paint pen (to draw hexes!) on the way so expect some historical fictional Royal Navy-in-The-Russo-Japanese-War shenanigans using Grand Fleets soon!
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Jul 30, 2023 20:44
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Thank you everyone who isn’t posting about 3d printing. Have another tank: 
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Jul 30, 2023 22:01
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Sydney Bottocks posted:There's still faff you have to deal with when it comes to plastic and metal minis, too, it's just a different type of faff. These are all eminently reasonable points to make and I agree fully. However, the average miniature person isn't going to be exposed to any of it - the most vanilla experience is painting with GW paints which are completely nontoxic so the most dangerous thing would be slipping and cutting yourself with a hobby knife. Any resin printing will involve handling hazardous material, it's not optional so it really isn't something that everyone should get into unless they are aware going in. The marketing surrounding the printers and resin doesn't make this explicitly clear. IncredibleIgloo posted:It seems odd to compare acrylates which are in direct contact with someone's body for weeks at a time to a process in which people wear protective gear. Stereolithographic printing has been used for 40 years now at this point, with multiple large scale adaptations and uses that have been scrutinized by OSHA and industrial hygiene engineers. Realistically people probably endanger their health more frequently with their airbrushes. I think you have a really weird dislike for 3D printing and I couldn't figure out why until you said you had your own garage business, and now it all makes sense. Sorry dude, the times are changing and I can make better stuff in my garage. Well you're a disingenuous little wanker aren't you? I never said I was against 3D printing, merely that it's far from the rosy be-all and end-all that you especially keen to promote. I have plenty of printed stuff To address a few of your points specifically - sensitisation to resins occurs with exposure to the uncured form, the cured form can't penetrate the skin - I would argue printing is a bigger exposure hazard than nails because you have an open vat sat around. - OHSA and industry safety standards only apply in regulated settings. If you advocate printers for everyone then you will expect corners to be cut and safety procedures to not be followed or understood. How many people even read the drat manual? More so if you make the devices plug and play - as long as it works who cares? I know of someone who ran six printers in his bedroom. Strange that he subsequently developed a persistent breathing difficulties. - I got out of the garage business years ago and dont have a stick in that race anymore. Day job meant increasingly limited hobby time which I didn't want to spend endlessly sculpting just to maintain a business. But I still know the processes and costs within the industry. I've seen more than enough newfangled projects and miniature lines crash and burn to know the limits of the market. Which is why I know asking hobbyists to shell out £300 for a printer, dedicated printing room and handle everything safely is a tall ask. There will be plenty who will get into 3d printing but it's not something to expect (and make business plans for) every hobbyist to get involved in. People 15 years ago were saying the same about home resin casting. To stop derailing further have some Nazis 
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Jul 30, 2023 22:26
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Endman posted:Thank you everyone who isn’t posting about 3d printing. You know, North Africa would be a good setting for some poo poo tanks and AT rifles... Though, most of my terrain sits way more on the side of northern europe.
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Jul 30, 2023 22:32
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I think your comment on home resin casting is correct. I got into casting as a kid/young teenager in the late 90s and early 00s. Sculpting and casting stuff yourself was rock bottom cheap, but I never knew anyone else that did it. Anything technical is going to come with a pretty steep barrier to entry. I think you have to have a baseline level of interest in developing those technical skills. Before 3D printing you either had to recast something, or sculpt an original, both of these tap into skills generally associated with the arts. Your average wargaming nerd 25 years ago doesn't tend to have lots of familiarity with the arts, still don't in my experience. Look at how adoption of airbrushes is only now gaining popularity. However, 3D printing is now on the scene, and it taps into computer based technical skills. Something the wargaming crowd tends to have a lot more familiarity and interest in. I think we'll see way more people making their own minis, but the mass of wargamers will continue to purchase minis from others, and that will be split between prints and traditional castings. I'm also still a little suspicious of prints, in art people went nuts with resin when it first became available. However, these early works deteriorated rapidly, and people still are suspicious of the resin art because of it. I worry that I might spend a ton of time painting something only to have something go wrong with how the piece ages or paint adheres to the resin.
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Jul 30, 2023 23:01
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Virtual Russian posted:I think your comment on home resin casting is correct. I got into casting as a kid/young teenager in the late 90s and early 00s. Sculpting and casting stuff yourself was rock bottom cheap, but I never knew anyone else that did it. Anything technical is going to come with a pretty steep barrier to entry. I think you have to have a baseline level of interest in developing those technical skills. Before 3D printing you either had to recast something, or sculpt an original, both of these tap into skills generally associated with the arts. Your average wargaming nerd 25 years ago doesn't tend to have lots of familiarity with the arts, still don't in my experience. Look at how adoption of airbrushes is only now gaining popularity. However, 3D printing is now on the scene, and it taps into computer based technical skills. Something the wargaming crowd tends to have a lot more familiarity and interest in. I think we'll see way more people making their own minis, but the mass of wargamers will continue to purchase minis from others, and that will be split between prints and traditional castings. I've got printed minis from 3 years ago still sitting on my shelf with no issues, so they'll last for 3 years at least  Z the IVth posted:These are all eminently reasonable points to make and I agree fully. However, the average miniature person isn't going to be exposed to any of it - the most vanilla experience is painting with GW paints which are completely nontoxic so the most dangerous thing would be slipping and cutting yourself with a hobby knife. Any resin printing will involve handling hazardous material, it's not optional so it really isn't something that everyone should get into unless they are aware going in. The marketing surrounding the printers and resin doesn't make this explicitly clear. It depends on the company. There are 3d printer companies and resin companies that absolutely gloss over the need for proper setup and protective gear, and there are companies that take pains to explain that you need to be absolutely careful handling it. Again, I agree that resin printing absolutely isn't for everyone and they should definitely weigh the pros and cons of it before entering into it. With all that said, I need to print up some WW2 minis or something now, just to keep on track with the thread.
Sydney Bottocks fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jul 30, 2023 |
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Jul 30, 2023 23:08
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I've got printed minis from 3 years ago still sitting on my shelf with no issues, so they'll last for 3 years at least I think it took about a decade at least. I have lots of 6mm - 10mm prints with paint on them, so I'm taking the gamble that it will be fine, but the larger stuff I'm still mostly painting castings.
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Jul 30, 2023 23:11
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