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Arist posted:Back in HW when I started I was the guy queueing for ARR EXs for three hours in the duty finder. I feel seen. I was lucky the one I did that for was Garuda and was actually teachable/beatable with a mentor willing to do so. I've known people who got sprouts through Ramuh EX blind but it's not easy. Since we're in the newbie thread I should state for the record: Extreme/Savage dungeons are challenge modes not required for main progression, with more complicated mechanics and shorter grace periods, some of them require a lot of full-party cooperation (Ramuh and Leviathan in particular are infamous for this, having things that are difficult to do intuitively). Very doable, but good to go in knowing what to expect or if you're trying to go in blind, to go in with people who know you're doing that. In ARR it's easy to get confused because there's also "Hard" versions of some trials that are just lower-level ones scaled up to 50 and can be blundered through like any main story trial. And since those ARE required for story so it can be easy to do those and then just assume that Extreme is the same sort of thing.
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Aug 1, 2023 19:39
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Bruceski posted:I was lucky the one I did that for was Garuda and was actually teachable/beatable with a mentor willing to do so. I think I successfully got through Garuda too, and then I tried to do the same thing with Titan EX, which is... not one of those.
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Aug 1, 2023 19:41
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Fortunately, I'm in a location where people simply don't queue for Extremes in the Duty Finder, and was told such early on.
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Aug 1, 2023 19:48
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Bruceski posted:I was lucky the one I did that for was Garuda and was actually teachable/beatable with a mentor willing to do so. I've known people who got sprouts through Ramuh EX blind but it's not easy. I come from WoW and people acting like FF14 raiding is hard makes me laugh. Oh no... 2 mechanics?  yeah man, the struggle is real
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Aug 1, 2023 19:54
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That Little Demon posted:I come from WoW and people acting like FF14 raiding is hard makes me laugh. Oh no... 2 mechanics? i mean do people act like LFR is hard in wow? there must be some people who behave that way. same deal. where you are you've only experienced LFR level content
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Aug 1, 2023 19:55
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thanks to TLD I did learn something new RP casino venues exist and if you're decent at blackjack you can actually make bank very quickly
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Aug 1, 2023 19:56
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Mister Olympus posted:i mean do people act like LFR is hard in wow? there must be some people who behave that way. same deal. where you are you've only experienced LFR level content Not generally, no lol. They don't act like that from what I've seen. It just made me laugh seeing people in here and in game talk about Extreme difficulty for some of these raids as some hours long learning process. I queued for it in Duty Finder and me and about 6 sprouts cleared each of them easily (less than 4 wipes to learn all mechanics). I even explained things i just saw accurately enough to beat them. That is why I am laughing because 99% of this it just "stand at range" and "don't stand in fire". The only thing that absolutely confused me the first time was the "Stack" icon simply because I didn't know what it was. This game basically is like playing with a full mod stack of DBM and Weak Auras but they are included in the game lol
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Aug 1, 2023 20:01
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The extreme difficulty tag isn't the hard raid content. The stuff you're doing is also like 10 years old. It'd be like comparing modern wow to antique stuff that's basically just stay out of damage puddles.
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Aug 1, 2023 20:03
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The extreme difficulty tag isn't the hard raid content. Extremes these days are much harder than they used to be, and they're still not that hard compared to Savage raids yeah
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Aug 1, 2023 20:05
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Arist posted:Extremes these days are much harder than they used to be, and they're still not that hard compared to Savage raids yeah Yeah, the game overall is way more complex than in ARR. When you look at player strength inflation over the years and the probable ilvl sync, ARR extremes are barely a step up over endwalker dungeon bosses.
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Aug 1, 2023 20:05
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The extreme difficulty tag isn't the hard raid content. that is good to know, I was just saying about how it was treated in game when I joined and people sighed at sprouts that signed up via duty finder. Like just laughing about some low level elitism about 10 year old content
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Aug 1, 2023 20:09
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That Little Demon posted:that is good to know, I was just saying about how it was treated in game when I joined and people sighed at sprouts that signed up via duty finder. Like just laughing about some low level elitism about 10 year old content Yeah. It's not that extremes are hard for an average group of sprouts. Even modern extremes, while considerably more difficult, might be a couple hours of prog for a new group. The complaints about DF Extremes are usually just from mentors that are in their special queue that want a brainless dungeon for mount points, or people that just don't want to put that modicum of effort into it. Back when I played in ARR we did all our poo poo through DF. It was just the way it was. Eventually you probably won't be able to queue into extremes in DF, just because no one does for Heavensward stuff and later, but by no means does that mean you can't get a group and whip through it in an hour or two. If you are interested in the actual hard content, that's typically where the Savage and Ultimage tags come in. Again they're generally harder as you get through the eras, and Ultimates especially will lead to the multi-day prog timers.
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Aug 1, 2023 20:13
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Yeah. It's not that extremes are hard for an average group of sprouts. Even modern extremes, while considerably more difficult, might be a couple hours of prog for a new group. The complaints about DF Extremes are usually just from mentors that are in their special queue that want a brainless dungeon for mount points, or people that just don't want to put that modicum of effort into it. Back when I played in ARR we did all our poo poo through DF. It was just the way it was. What should I be using to do this content? I figured DF was the easiest for old content
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Aug 1, 2023 20:14
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To be fair, the reason you don't do Extremes via duty finder is as much an issue of "it will take literal hours to get 8 players" as it is "people are not going to be ready to do the content even if you do get in." It was also much worse before the last couple years because in many older Extremes where you could fall off the edge your corpse would stay where it was instead of appearing back in the arena, so you couldn't be rezzed. Trying to do Titan EX without a party formed specifically for it was a fool's errand for that reason. They did finally change that, though. Also, the content wasn't ten years old when I was trying to queue for it. It was like, a year old.
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Aug 1, 2023 20:14
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That Little Demon posted:Not generally, no lol. They don't act like that from what I've seen. It just made me laugh seeing people in here and in game talk about Extreme difficulty for some of these raids as some hours long learning process. I queued for it in Duty Finder and me and about 6 sprouts cleared each of them easily (less than 4 wipes to learn all mechanics). I even explained things i just saw accurately enough to beat them. That is why I am laughing because 99% of this it just "stand at range" and "don't stand in fire". The only thing that absolutely confused me the first time was the "Stack" icon simply because I didn't know what it was. This game basically is like playing with a full mod stack of DBM and Weak Auras but they are included in the game lol You sightread Leviathan EX? The fight with an enemy who needs to be stunned with proper timing before casting a raidwide hysteria because they're the only enemy in the game who stops being stunnable once they start casting? I'd love to know how you picked that up.
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Aug 1, 2023 20:15
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That Little Demon posted:What should I be using to do this content? I figured DF was the easiest for old content Most people will go through Party Finder. It's not an automatic queue like DF is, but you pick what content you're planning on doing, and people can join based on the group and stuff you've set up, then you can queue into it when the group fills. That said there's not a lot of interest in legacy content, so Extremes or higher might be a bit barren. You might be able to fill the ARR Extremes in Duty Finder, and if that works then that works. Most people just say get someone higher level to run you through the Extremes but that's piss-poor alternative if you actually want to see the content. That said, they're optional, so you don't need to be stuck trying to get a group. Anything that's not tagged, or tagged (Hard) is in the roulette system so just queue in normally. Hard is a misnomer and is still story-level content. The exception is the Coils of Bahamut raids, which were at the time considered the Hard raids.
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Aug 1, 2023 20:17
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Bruceski posted:You sightread Leviathan EX? The fight with an enemy who needs to be stunned with proper timing before casting a raidwide hysteria because they're the only enemy in the game who stops being stunnable once they start casting? I'd love to know how you picked that up. I am a healer, I push 1, maybe 2 buttons in both this game and WoW, all I do is have time to watch for mechanics and see what is and isn't working lol
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Aug 1, 2023 20:17
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That Little Demon posted:What should I be using to do this content? I figured DF was the easiest for old content Party Finder is the go-to for Extremes and Savages. Duty Finder is inadvisable for anything with any teeth at all. Once you get into later expansions and get your ilvl waaaaaay up you can actually solo ARR extremes (and some HW ones) with the "Undersized Party" checkbox in DF, which puts you in with an irregular party formation and no ilevel sync.
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Aug 1, 2023 20:18
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Most people will go through Party Finder. It's not an automatic queue like DF is, but you pick what content you're planning on doing, and people can join based on the group and stuff you've set up, then you can queue into it when the group fills. That said there's not a lot of interest in legacy content, so Extremes or higher might be a bit barren. You might be able to fill the ARR Extremes in Duty Finder, and if that works then that works. Most people just say get someone higher level to run you through the Extremes but that's bitch-mode. That said, they're optional, so you don't need to be stuck trying to get a group. I've been doing it all and getting groups (except coil which I couldn't find a group for but want to do) ahead of moving on to HS. Basically doing anything that had a "quest" attached to it or unlocking it. Surprising to hear this isn't the way I should have been doing it lol but good to know about Party Finder. I've been using PF specifically for RP lol
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Aug 1, 2023 20:19
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That Little Demon posted:I've been doing it all and getting groups (except coil which I couldn't find a group for but want to do) ahead of moving on to HS. Basically doing anything that had a "quest" attached to it or unlocking it. Surprising to hear this isn't the way I should have been doing it lol but good to know about Party Finder. I've been using PF specifically for RP lol The only required content in the game is anything the MSQ sends you to (i.e. dungeons and trials) as well as the Crystal Tower alliance raid series. Everything else is optional, and most of that content gives rewards that mechanically are completely outclassed by modern content. That said they do often have some cool cosmetic stuff that might be worth farming if you're into that sort of thing.
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Aug 1, 2023 20:22
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It's poorly explained, but it's a couple factors. Extremes and higher aren't in the roulettes, so they don't fill with other players normally like dungeons and the story raids do. So you're stuck getting it from 2 groups - 1. People queuing explicitly into the content. There might not be that many people, due to age. And even then people might not want to put the lockout or two of investment to learn the fights. Although typically it looks like you can fill ARR stuff without too much hassle. 2. Mentors in their mentor roulette. Mentors get a roulette that covers nearly all the non-savage content in the game. Mixed bag. Not sure how much you know about the FFXIV mentor system but it's a lot of self-entitled people that will bail on the first sign of effort, trying to grind out their mount, or get outright hostile when dragged into an Extreme. You might get someone helpful, or you might get someone that just quits as soon as they zone in. PF will at least attract people that know what they're going in to. End game stuff is all run in PF in North America. Legacy stuff gets some attention.
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Aug 1, 2023 20:24
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:It's poorly explained, but it's a couple factors. Great info, thank you!
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Aug 1, 2023 20:26
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so many people suffer getting the mentor mount when they could just stop at the monocle
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Aug 1, 2023 20:30
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they could just not be mentors and be happier
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Aug 1, 2023 20:43
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But then they won't get their ugly mount and global chat channel.
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Aug 1, 2023 20:44
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I'm looking forward to getting Mentor specifically because of Mentor Roulette. I'd absolutely love to just queue for whatever the game decides to throw me into.
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Aug 1, 2023 20:49
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In all serious honesty, the primary reason to do the ARR extremes is simply to farm the mounts, or perhaps glamour in the form of their elemental-themed weapons - they're not required to unlock any sort of plot or story, and the story involved in unlocking them is extremely minor and unimportant, when it exists at all beyond "hey they did the thing again". In which case, unless you actively want to try to do them with an at-level group, I would really just get a high-level friend to run you; level 90's can kill them in a matter of seconds, and only invulnerable phases delay it past 5-10 seconds.
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Aug 1, 2023 20:50
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Having raided both in recent history I'd say it's hard to really apples to apples compare WoW difficulty to FF because they're very different design wise. WoW cares a lot more about execution and numerical output IMO compared to FF which is a lot more about dances and coordination between players. I'd just say Savage raiding is a very different beast than EX fights. Like most EXs you can definitely just watch a video, talk it out with a group and hop in on VC and knock it out in a single lockout, with party finder taking longer because you need to find the group, and find one where everyone did the homework and no one just throws a baby fit and quits the first time someone misses a mechanic. From my experience Savage raiding is generally on the level of the mid to higher end of heroic difficulty in WoW maybe? Some of the early fights in a tier are just about EX level, but the late ones tend to be dense and difficult. Ultimates are kind of The Real poo poo but I dunno if they make a good comparison to Mythic because 1: I never did any Mythic raiding, and 2: Ultimates are just... different because they tend toward long, marathon dances where everyone needs to know where they're supposed to be and how to react to different roles and effects for each mechanic or everyone explodes and it's about maintaining that level of focus and memorizing the moves for like 15 minutes straight.
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Aug 1, 2023 20:53
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I’ve heard some people compare FFXIV combat to a rhythm game, and they aren’t wrong. It’s just that MSQ is the rhythm game on Easy-Normal, EXs are Hard, Savage is Extreme, and Ultimates are Ex-Extreme. To uh. Use Project Diva difficulties as an example.
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Aug 1, 2023 21:01
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every morning i wake up at 8 am. I open palm slam the latest arthars ultimate clear vod into the vhs and start doing the moves right along side him, maintaining focus for 15 minutes straight.
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Aug 1, 2023 21:52
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Glagha posted:Ultimates are just... different because they tend toward long, marathon dances where everyone needs to know where they're supposed to be and how to react to different roles and effects for each mechanic or everyone explodes and it's about maintaining that level of focus and memorizing the moves for like 15 minutes straight. This is the typical last boss of a raid tier in WoW.  It was an immense relief at the time that Blackhand in Warlords of Draenor was a 6 minute do or die.
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Aug 1, 2023 22:30
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My experience with quote-unquote high-level WoW raiding back in the day was "rather than learning this fight stand in a line so you only kill a couple of people when you explode" and people would still mess it up. I'm sure things have progressed since Molten Core.
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Aug 1, 2023 23:15
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The hardest fight you're likely to run into in ARR is Twintania in Coils of Bahamut. It has a few instant-kill moves (And a deathwall around the arena that it likes to knock you back into) and some mechanics that I still don't know what they do. But it's doable within the time limit of the dungeon. Omega 12 Savage (The only Savage content I've done) has things like "You'll get a marker over your head from 1 to 4. Another person will get the same marker, but in a different color. Stand near them, 1s and 3s away from the boss, 2s and 4s close." I died to this mechanic every time, and I'm pretty sure I did it right at least twice. And then there's the Goodbye World strat, where all the DPS jump off the platform and wait to revive until a spreading debuff clears off the healers. Extremes will pull out a few new tricks. Savages dump out the bag.
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Aug 2, 2023 01:23
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Extremes tend to just sorta be the next step up in difficulty. Savage starts flooding out a lot of "If you fail this mechanic, you die and/or wipe." And then such mechanics are frequent throughout the fight.
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Aug 2, 2023 01:26
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If you've done square/contra dancing or similar "learn your steps, hold out an arm here and hope like heck your partner's there to grab it" routines then Savages will feel pretty familiar, though occasionally they throw something out where you need to know every role and adapt on the fly. In general (there's a lot of variation) Extremes are about learning your own steps or everyone doing the same thing and maybe coordinating with one other person, Savages start there and can turn into party-wide routines where someone missing their blocking cascades into a wipe. This looks really cool when it goes off well, and like a hilarious clusterfluffle when it doesn't. The main challenges are learning the steps, dps keeping their rotation up while executing those steps (and avoiding the siren song of "uptime strats" that get everybody killed because you wanted half a second more in melee range), healers coordinating their mitigation for the unavoidable damage (and bandaging people who mess up their steps and take avoidable damage, healers' jobs are much harder when learning a fight than finishing it), and tanks being ready for massive-damage hits (often involving taunting off the other tank in the middle of it).
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Aug 2, 2023 02:32
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this is outdated - the job icon next to eureka addict should be SMN or WAR respectively.
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Aug 2, 2023 02:38
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the soundtrack in FF14 is something else https://streamable.com/5erl4s
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Aug 2, 2023 02:39
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Doomykins posted:This is the typical last boss of a raid tier in WoW. For sure, but it's the kind of thing where several times a minute in every one of the 15 something completely new happens that is never repeated. From my WoW experience the mechanics were generally harsher timing wise and tended to be more random but there was a lot more repetition. Doing the same sets of things repeatedly but sometimes in a random order and with stricter timelines for how to handle them. Final Fantasy tends to have much slower paced fights but they tend to be a lot more complicated. There's repeated mechanics but there's almost always some added wrinkle. Now do it while THIS is happening. Now handle this puzzle but the solution is different this time because of different circumstances. The repeated moves tend to be interspersed in between the different dance mechanics. Here's the standard raidwide damage, now everyone's got to soak these hits in a particular order. Standard tankbuster, now there's an add phase. Now do light rampant. Also there's the added wrinkle of not having DBM to do all the thinking for you.
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Aug 2, 2023 04:12
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also most ultimates are 20+ mins actually, though i know some of the more brutal wow endbosses have been up there too
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Aug 2, 2023 04:16
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Bruceski posted:My experience with quote-unquote high-level WoW raiding back in the day was "rather than learning this fight stand in a line so you only kill a couple of people when you explode" and people would still mess it up. I'm sure things have progressed since Molten Core. that was basically the pf solution for p10s's daemonic bonds 3 a couple months ago thankfully it didn't seem to catch on
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