The US will lose WW3

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gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://ru.zahn-info-portal.de/wiki/Northrop_F-5

(translated via DeepL)

quote:

Design and Development

Origins

The design effort was led by Northrop vice president of engineering and aircraft designer Edgar Schmued,[8] who earlier in North American Aviation had been the chief designer of the successful North American P-51 Mustang and F-86 Sabre fighters. Schmued hired a strong team of engineers at Northrop[9] and set out to reverse the trend of fighter aircraft toward larger size and weight to provide an aircraft with high performance, increased maneuverability, and high reliability, while providing a cost advantage over contemporary fighters.[10][11] While recognizing that expensive jets cannot be replaced every few years, he also demanded an "engineering growth capability" to provide a service life of more than 10 years.[12] Schmued recognized that new jet engine and aerodynamic technologies were critical to achieving these goals, such as a compact but high thrust-to-weight ratio. General Electric J85 turbojet engine and the newly discovered near-sonic area rule to reduce drag. The J85 engine was developed to power McDonnell's ADM-20 Quail decoy for the Boeing B-52 Stratofortress.[13] This engine, with a specific thrust of 6.25 to 7.5 over various versions, had a marked advantage in thrust per pound over its contemporaries, such as the engine's thrust-to-weight ratio of 4.7. J79 engine used in the F-4 Phantom.

Another very influential figure was Chief Engineer Velko Gasić,[15] who convinced Schmued that the engines should be located inside the fuselage to maximize performance. Gasić also introduced the concept of "life cycle cost" into the fighter design, which formed the basis for the F-5's low operating cost and long service life. The Northrop study states, "The application of advanced technology was used to maximize force effectiveness at the lowest possible cost. This became Northrop's philosophy in the development of the T-38 and F-5 light trainer and fighter aircraft."[16][14]

# ? Aug 2, 2023 04:03

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# ? May 24, 2024 15:21

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

gradenko_2000 posted:

Why the USSR obtained the American F-5 fighter in Vietnam

The MiG-23 already existed before the F-5E was captured and tested. They flew the F-5 against the MiG-23 and the F-5 still won within visual range. (US had similar early results with F-14s vs F-5s until the F-14s got to use more range and radar missiles against them).

There�s a pretty funny account of a Soviet pilot test flying the F-5 in these trials. He found its nose gear overly dainty and engines weak, but performance very good vs the MiG-21 and MiG-23 and ergonomics much better.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/sov...engagement/amp/

Vladimir Kondaurov posted:

�Not the brakes� Main wheels damage is the last thing we need: we don�t have spares,� the thoughts were rushing in my mind. Gradually reducing the speed, I stopped. I switched everything off, opened the canopy and impatiently jumped down onto the tarmac. I looked and I was puzzled: the wheel was intact. �That�s strange! So what were you so unhappy with?� I looked at the �Foreigner� suspiciously. It turned out that he was unhappy with our runway condition: rough grooves and seams were so deep, and the surface of the concrete was decayed, so he just didn�t stand it. One bolt was cut off, and the strut together with the wheel was turning around.

� �Nice! Ours don�t do things like that,� I gave his nose a pat and whispered: �Don�t worry, we�ll find a new bolt for you and you�ll gallop around again!�

�

Then the MiG company representatives suggested:

� �Let�s set MiG-23M against him.�

� �But they cannot be compared to one another; they are from different generations.� The chief of our research institute objected.

The chief of our institute, colonel general I. Gaidayenko had been a fighter-pilot during World War II and a wingman of the very P. Kutakov, who was the supreme commander of the Air Force at the time of our struggle with the F-5. The result of the test flights was supposed to be reported to Kutakov.

� �So what? We will kick his rear end anyway!� 2nd lead engineer of MiG-23M spoke out, rubbing his hands in expectance of the revenge.

Well, the rear end was kicked, for sure� but one of our own. The result was the same with the only exception that the agony lasted for 4-5 minutes. You have also to keep in mind that I had been considered a pilot capable of any stall and spin recovery and I had been permitted to break any angle of attack limitations. In the dogfight, I set the optimal wing sweep manually, but all in vain. The foreigner would slowly, but steadily, approach my tail. After these flights all calmed down for some time, all discussions ceased. The chief of the RI ordered to promptly compile a statement on the tests and directed me and Stogov to Moscow, to the Central Research Institution No. 30, which was involved in elaboration of the long-term problems of aviation advancement.

�

The �Foreigner� was given to the aviation industry specialists with a strict clause: no flying, but to disassemble and study the structural features to use the knowledge in further projects. Some time passed, and the Su-25 close air support aircraft emerged. It had the wheel brakes on the rudder pedals, �maneuvering� wing configuration and a different approach to the cockpit layout. In the terms of the pilot workstation our engineers went even further, and nowadays the cockpit of MiG-29 can serve as an exemplar for similar foreign combat aircraft. The same can be said about the aerodynamics. The aerodynamic capabilities of Su-27 fighter are considered unexcelled so far. It appears that what is clear for one is revelation for the other. I believe that similar situations arose in the USA as well, as they got our aircraft at times from MiG-21 to MiG-29. We had luck only once.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 04:09

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

...

(skipping some incidental material, but there are also sections that go into how abysmal the performance of the F-14 Tomcat was, despite what Top Gun might have you believe)

# ? Aug 2, 2023 04:18

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Gradenko if you can find that paper (monograph?) on the F-5 in Canadian service, the politics and MIC machinations would be of interest. It was the last time the Americans let us licence produce an aircraft.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 04:26

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

The F-14 was pretty bad, all things considered. Notable events: Shot down a US F-4 in training (F-14 pilot promoted), shot down MiG-23s that may not even have known they were in a real shooting fight rather than just dickwaving, managed to kill a transport helicopter in Iraq but also lost an F-14 to an SA-2, and the very idea of an F-14 scared the Vincennes crew so much that they shot down an innocent Iranian airliner.

The F-16 turned out well despite the dumb original idea of considering giving it no radar and making it a daytime only gunfighter and heater carrier. Ended up with a good frame that adapted well to modernization to carry decent radar and mixed ordnance, fuel, electronics, etc.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 04:27

The Oldest Man: Jul 28, 2003

mlmp08 posted:

The F-14 was pretty bad, all things considered.

The Iranians did pretty well with them.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 04:48

The Oldest Man: Jul 28, 2003

Tell me you wouldn't go see this movie

quote:

Jalil Zandi began in the Imperial Iranian Air Force and after the 1979 Islamic revolution stayed on to serve in the IRIAF when it was somewhat dangerous for pilots to continue their military service. While a major, he often clashed with his superior Lt. Col. Abbas Babaei.[2] Abbas Babaei was "notorious for his merciless treatment of the pilots and officers" considered disloyal to the new regime[4] and because of this Jalil Zandi was condemned to ten years of imprisonment. When he was in prison, he was threatened to be sentenced to death, but by demand of the then-air force commander and many other air force pilots, he was released after six months.[5]

He earned his fame as an F-14 Tomcat pilot during the Iran�Iraq War. He has been reliably credited with shooting down 11 Iraqi aircraft (eight confirmed victories[6][7] through examination with US intelligence documents released according to FOIA inquiry and three probable victories).[8] The victories include four MiG-23s, two Su-22s, two MiG-21s, and three Mirage F1s.[9] This makes him one of the most successful Iranian fighter aces and the most successful F-14 Tomcat pilot worldwide.[9]

# ? Aug 2, 2023 04:57

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Yeah, the f-14 didn�t do poorly during the war. The f-5�s problem was range and payload, it was a quite a nimble fighter but more suited in a defensive situation which is why the US usually wasn�t interested in it versus something like the f-111 then f-15.

It isn�t surprising that the f-5 would be a better dogfighter than the MiG-21 since it was originally intended as a interceptor and sort of forced in an air superiority role.

Ardennes has issued a correction as of 05:08 on Aug 2, 2023

# ? Aug 2, 2023 05:06

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

What I'm getting here is that the f5 is an excellent plane, notably superior to the stalwart mig 21, which is why the US decided not to adopt it

# ? Aug 2, 2023 05:09

The Oldest Man: Jul 28, 2003

In Iranian Top Gun beach volleyball has been made illegal, but the pilots do it anyway because they get results chief

# ? Aug 2, 2023 05:15

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

If you are running an empire, it probably makes more sense for your vassals to have short range defensive fighters to control their airspace while you have the longer-range fighters that carry ordinance. It actually makes some sense, to be honest.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 06:22

The Oldest Man: Jul 28, 2003

Ardennes posted:

It actually makes some sense, to be honest.

Yeah you wouldn't want any of your more uh genocidey imperial periphery states to get the long range or high end fighters and then start using them to

Uh oh

# ? Aug 2, 2023 06:30

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

The shah was the only special boy allowed to have f14's also

# ? Aug 2, 2023 06:40

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

The Oldest Man posted:

Yeah you wouldn't want any of your more uh genocidey imperial periphery states to get the long range or high end fighters and then start using them to

Uh oh

That is the thanks that you get.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 06:47

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

The Oldest Man posted:

In Iranian Top Gun beach volleyball has been made illegal, but the pilots do it anyway because they get results chief

It's prayer time to the sound of Val Halen.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 08:44

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

DancingShade posted:

It's prayer time to the sound of Val Halen.

"Playing With The Boys" was by Kenny Loggins, you philistine

# ? Aug 2, 2023 08:51

BrotherJayne: Nov 28, 2019

gradenko_2000 posted:

(skipping some incidental material, but there are also sections that go into how abysmal the performance of the F-14 Tomcat was, despite what Top Gun might have you believe)

The early ones with the wrong engines, yeah?

They were missing something like a third of the designed thrust

# ? Aug 2, 2023 09:04

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

The Oldest Man posted:

The Iranians did pretty well with them.

True, but the overall cost, safety rating, length of service life, etc, of the F-14 is pretty rough.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 14:16

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Slavvy posted:

What I'm getting here is that the f5 is an excellent plane, notably superior to the stalwart mig 21, which is why the US decided not to adopt it

It just doesn't look cool enough.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 17:09

The Oldest Man: Jul 28, 2003

mlmp08 posted:

True, but the overall cost, safety rating, length of service life, etc, of the F-14 is pretty rough.

They're still in service with the IRIAF and they've even come up with some kind of home-roll AIM-54 replacement to put on them lol

Gigachad energy to have a longer range fox 3 in service than the great satan that sold you the planes does anymore

# ? Aug 2, 2023 17:17

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Not just still in service - thanks to Russian expertise help building an Iranian aviation industry, they have more in service than ever as they are able to take aircraft with hardly any flight hours out of storage and refurbish them. They had not previously had the parts for them, or couldn't assemble them without US advisors, I think they were shipped in crates, but now Iran is able to all sorts of stuff with them.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 17:20

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

�We are the most diverse force in the world, and therefore we�re the most successful. Do we want to be like the Russians? No, of course not. We want to reflect that diversity. And that�s our great strength,� said retired Army Brig. Gen. Ty Seidule, who served as the vice chairman of the Congressional Naming Commission, which renamed DoD bases honoring Confederates.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 17:53

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

Frosted Flake posted:

Not just still in service - thanks to Russian expertise help building an Iranian aviation industry, they have more in service than ever as they are able to take aircraft with hardly any flight hours out of storage and refurbish them. They had not previously had the parts for them, or couldn't assemble them without US advisors, I think they were shipped in crates, but now Iran is able to all sorts of stuff with them.

During the Revolution the US advisors wrecked the comptuer inventory sysytem so the Iranians couldnt even figure out the parts they had for like 3 years as the comb over every storage unit in the country. Which severally impacted their use during the Iran-Iraq war. Though even when they were out of Ammo for the F-14 they would use them.as an AWACS

# ? Aug 2, 2023 18:09

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

Iran recently traded a bunch of Shahed drones for Russian Migs (35?) I think they are finally ready to move on and shut down any potential Topgun 3 story ideas.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 19:33

Thoguh: Nov 8, 2002; College Slice

stephenthinkpad posted:

Iran recently traded a bunch of Shahed drones for Russian Migs (35?) I think they are finally ready to move on and shut down any potential Topgun 3 story ideas.

Well duh we started a war with Iran at the end of Top Gun 2 so Top Gun 3 is going to have to be about Maverick volunteering for the Ukraine and shooting down a bunch of Russians that are attacking Snake Island.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 19:50

The Oldest Man: Jul 28, 2003

We already saw the f-14 can beat Su-57s in top gun so those Su-35s Iran is getting from Russia must be for target practice

# ? Aug 2, 2023 21:07

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

In Top Gun 3 the F-14 loses to a lancet drone powered by a lawnmower engine.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 22:03

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

https://twitter.com/JChengWSJ/status/1684375802765246465
https://twitter.com/zhao_dashuai/status/1686511417325993986

i guess we're training taiwan wrong just like we trained the ukrainians wrong

# ? Aug 3, 2023 02:56

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

I'm an F-5 truther now. The F-5 should have been the future of western air forces.

# ? Aug 3, 2023 03:03

Cuttlefush: Jan 15, 2014; gotta have my purp

I had no idea about one getting captured and then tested.

# ? Aug 3, 2023 03:06

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

the truth about the Gulf War

the truth about the F-5

incredible things are happening in the WW3 thread

# ? Aug 3, 2023 03:26

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Frosted Flake posted:

I'm an F-5 truther now. The F-5 should have been the future of western air forces.

It's a really cool little plane. Limited as hell and you can't really put any remotely modern (like not even 1970s/80s) radar missiles on them and there wasn't a good way to significantly modernize the radar given its size, but there are some pretty wild variants out there:

ROCAF with Mavericks

Brazil and a few others have managed to get laser designation pods onto some of their F-5s so they can self-designate for guided weapons (carrying is more common, but ability to designate for themselves is pretty rare among F-5 users).

Aggressor F-5 with IRST included.

The F-20 would have been AIM-7 capable, but it was never produced for domestic operational use nor allowed to be exported to potential buyers. Though the AIM-7 really highlights how tiny the airframe was.

# ? Aug 3, 2023 04:44

The Oldest Man: Jul 28, 2003

Frosted Flake posted:

I'm an F-5 truther now. The F-5 should have been the future of western air forces.

# ? Aug 3, 2023 06:07

Flocons de Jambon: Apr 11, 2015

Frosted Flake posted:

I'm an F-5 truther now. The F-5 should have been the future of western air forces.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't the feds choose the F-5 because they were shook by the FLQ and thought they needed something cheap and cheerful to run 4 sorties a day over Shawinigan.

# ? Aug 3, 2023 06:16

Cuttlefush: Jan 15, 2014; gotta have my purp

Flocons de Jambon posted:

Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't the feds choose the F-5 because they were shook by the FLQ and thought they needed something cheap and cheerful to run 4 sorties a day over Shawinigan.

i think canadair already had made a bunch or was making them by 1968

# ? Aug 3, 2023 06:21

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

The greatest cold war plane that only lives on in our hearts is the avro arrow imo

Fukken majestic

# ? Aug 3, 2023 06:32

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Ah classic earlier generation jet aircraft. Built in the age where "fly good" was the priority.

Put me in the camp that thinks the F-5 is a beauty. I also like the F-4.

Nobody talks about the F-80 shooting star as its a true relic now but another aesthetically pleasing craft.

# ? Aug 3, 2023 08:27

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

I am pretty sure I built a F5 model plane when I was 10. Good looking plane.

Danann posted:

https://twitter.com/JChengWSJ/status/1684375802765246465
https://twitter.com/zhao_dashuai/status/1686511417325993986

i guess we're training taiwan wrong just like we trained the ukrainians wrong

They are going to be facing machine gun-carrying drones.

# ? Aug 3, 2023 08:52