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Sanford posted:In my own personal journey through “wait, why on earth do I feel this way?” about travellers I got half a dozen stories that had 100% happened to local people and I found every single one of them online as either anonymous urban legends or things that had “definitely happened” to other people in other places. In the rural Hampshire village I grew up in, any time anything was stolen from someone's garden or farm/stable yard, anytime any fence was broken, anything was fly-tipped, every time a car was abandoned in a hedge etc. etc. it was always blamed on 'Travellers' (or a worse word). Everyone 'knew' that. Common sense. Nothing to do with any of the other million+ people who live within a half-hour drive of the area of course. Nope. Definitely travellers. Who 'travel' into the countryside, don't settle anywhere that can be seen, steal a lawnmower or two and then leave again. All in the space of a night. If it's not just parroted urban legends and hearsay, I bet that a lot of 'bad experiences with travellers' people have are like this.
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Aug 4, 2023 12:35
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Yeah it's basically just a racist version of gremlins for the most part. Doesn't matter what it is, that's where the blame goes.
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Aug 4, 2023 12:37
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Tijuana Bibliophile posted:One rough derail isn't more than this thread should be able to handle imo I mean it lives things up for a while.
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Aug 4, 2023 12:44
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Speaking of extreme racists, has Finland's new government managed to go a week without one of the ministers being found wearing an original SS uniform?
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Aug 4, 2023 12:46
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Sure but only because the parliament shut down for summer vacation.
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Aug 4, 2023 12:50
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I think I agree with what Sanford and Baloonfish were saying, my ingrained opinions on travellers are poo poo and I try to challenge them, but it's tough to unpick when it's ingrained everywhere. The town I used to live in, we would regularly get travellers occupying the local park, and for the most part they kept to themselves and cleaned up after. There was one group that left a bunch of piles of clothes / old appliances / junk / oil stains when they left and the local rag recycles those photos whenever ANY group turns up. And also whoever said a few pages ago they've had far more negative interactions with static home havers than with travellers also has a good point. Namtab posted:I don’t want to kill the travellers, I just want to destroy their way of life so they can be like us normal folk. I resent any comparison to recorded history of this viewpoint.
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Aug 4, 2023 13:00
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I saw a woman and two kids riding one of those little two-wheel horse carts along the road yesterday. Looked pretty fun imo.
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Aug 4, 2023 13:11
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Was talking to one of the old ladies at my flats just now (late 80s, very quiet, mild-mannered, goes to church on Sundays, always dresses neatly with a bit of lippy & combed hair, looks like a 'silent generation tory'). She said she's going to give me a £100 cheque for the small charity I work for (we support educational projects in a couple of developing countries) and then went into an almost complete ranting meltdown about how atrocious and appalling the government is and that's why she's going to give us the money!
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Aug 4, 2023 13:19
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Kieth Bingo! Toolmaker! Nurse! Pebbledashed Semi! Pretending they were skint and working class! https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1687380680756404224?s=46&t=m_nNbkNoHG4lLitcpyHReg
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Aug 4, 2023 13:20
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Bobby Deluxe posted:I think I agree with what Sanford and Baloonfish were saying, my ingrained opinions on travellers are poo poo and I try to challenge them, [b]but it's tough to unpick when it's ingrained everywhere[b]. I'm sure it is, and by trying to unpick it you're doing better work than the vast majority. If I come across as a holier-than-thou prig, I will say that I can absolutely see that if you were literally born and raised in a rural area, and especially if you were from a rural family working in farming etc. then the 'racist gremins' lore (to use OF's great turn of phrase) seemed to be imbued from birth and entirely unexamined and unchallenged. Like virtually all prejudices it becomes a 'the fish can't feel the water' thing. I had the advantage (in that respect alone...) of being one of the gentrifying townies that the born-and-bred Hampshire Hogs despised only slightly less than the travellers. We lived literally a dozen miles up the road from Wickham, site of the Wickham Horse Fair which is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) traditional traveller meet-ups in the country. Loads of people seemed to treat it like Racist Christmas - an annual holiday where it was socially acceptable to be openly, virulently prejudiced against a chosen minority. And yeah, like your example, we did have travellers pass through our district. Regularly (not to mention the thousands for the horse fair). Some arrived, stayed and left without any impact. Some arrived, stayed, did some cash-in-hand work cutting hedges, clearing ditches, grading farm tracks, taking away scrap etc. and left without impact. And some left trash, junk, scorch marks, oil stains and a brief localised wave of broken fences and stolen Calor gas bottles and farm implements. But, speaking for myself, the only times I've ever been the victim of crime it's been perpetrated by White British people, and I don't think they/we are all criminals. And, to reiterate what a previous poster said, if there's one social group out there that has negatively affected my life by refusing to integrate with society, refusing to follow the norms we're all expected to follow, refusing to pay their taxes, stealing value from me and society and could benefit from a spell of forced integration then it's billionaires, not GRT people.
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Aug 4, 2023 13:22
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Growing up I remember when my parents worried about paying the next bill, that's why in government I will growth jobs security children.
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Aug 4, 2023 13:23
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Just to dive right back into the GRT conversation, and trolling in general: The thing these motions fail to grasp, is that (at least for me), it's not about ignoring bad actors. We had it from Crystal Pepsi Dredd here, "OH HO HO, you say I shouldn't be intolerant AND YET you want to ban me just for my opinions!" and it's like...yes? They, specifically, as an individual, were being a prick and should be forced to leave. They don't ever grasp that it's not about saying "no GRT ever did anything wrong!", it's about not judging the group by the actions of individuals. Like, I've worked with awful bastards who happened to be gay, or women, or working class, or white. But that doesn't make it right to prejudge someone just for their background. And the whole "you can't debate me thus you SILENCE me!" response is bollocks. The best way to deal with people who are being offensive for the sake of it is a swift banning. The most effective action ever taken against Donald Trump was removing him from Twitter. Immediate massive boost to the general tone of discourse, with essentially no ill effects.
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Aug 4, 2023 13:42
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Banning Trump from Twitter prevented him from continuing to pollute political discourse, but it also prevented him from crying like a bitch about losing the election, so it's impossible to say if it's good or bad.
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Aug 4, 2023 13:46
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 lol 
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Aug 4, 2023 13:55
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I think the occasional bout of arguing with dickheads isn't too much of a problem, if only to show how little these people give a poo poo about actually engaging in arguments, but with the level of racism coming out of them this time I do think they should have been banned/probated for their posts a bit sooner and by "a bit sooner" I mean, at all
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Aug 4, 2023 13:57
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Lot of people really struggling with encountering opinions different to their own.
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Aug 4, 2023 14:04
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*blasting liquid poo poo all over the bathtub and smiling* looks like ur just not mature enough to handle my rhetoric
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Aug 4, 2023 14:06
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The last point of retreat for a bad argument is focusing on the perceived right to make it. For some people it's also the first and only point.
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Aug 4, 2023 14:07
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That reasonable hitler meme
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Aug 4, 2023 14:10
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OwlFancier posted:The last point of retreat for a bad argument is focusing on the perceived right to make it.
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Aug 4, 2023 14:16
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Ah, you're right Things are totally fine as they are. There's no such thing as society, just do whatever you want. Break into public parks and set up camp on rugby fields. Anyone with a problem with that is literally Hitler While you're at it, might as well pick and choose which other parts of the social contract you want to apply to you.
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Aug 4, 2023 14:17
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DreddyMatt posted:While you're at it, might as well pick and choose which other parts of the social contract you want to apply to you. God, imagine the society we'd be living in if people did THAT
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Aug 4, 2023 14:22
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The social contract, famously, is where you do as you're told and in return get treated like the scum of the earth regardless.
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Aug 4, 2023 14:24
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feedmegin posted:That reasonable hitler meme DreddyMatt posted:Ah, you're right this was the funniest burn so far and you did it to yourself
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Aug 4, 2023 14:27
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https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1687365686148870146
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Aug 4, 2023 14:28
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It's funny when people whip out ideas like "the social contract" as if it's just written in stone. Powerfully hegemonic thinking there. You might think that human relationships are constantly negotiated and there isn't actually "a social contract" in the sense of a single set of things you have to do, and that it shouldn't really just be used as a pretty way to say "do as I say or get hosed" especially when there might be grievances coming the other way too. But those are consistently not examined, there's no thought as to why people might act counter to social norms. No thought as to why people sometimes commit crimes, or live differently. There are only proper people, like me, and improper people, like them. It suggests an incredible depth of historical ignorance.
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Aug 4, 2023 14:38
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The social contract, also known as the magner carter 
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Aug 4, 2023 14:44
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Am I breaking the social contract by being trans?
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Aug 4, 2023 14:48
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Am I breaking the social contract by being unable to work due to poor health? Where can one read this social contract? e: I googled, and found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Contract_(Britain) quote:The Social Contract was a policy by the Labour government of Harold Wilson in 1970s Britain. I'm struggling to see how this is relevant when helping to decide whether cultural genocide is good or bad.... fuctifino fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Aug 4, 2023 |
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Aug 4, 2023 14:49
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I am definitely breaking the social contract by being autistic, I wasn't even allowed to read it.
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Aug 4, 2023 14:51
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I would argue about what the social contract is and how it applies in this situation but I'd rather just call you a oval office. v christ you are so loving dense
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Aug 4, 2023 14:53
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Nah mate, just do whatever you feel like. Set up a trap house, that'll bump up your pip payments. Depending on your level of mobility you might have issues outside tho, as people parking fully on the pavement is on the rise. And why not? More power to you. Stop picking up after your dog, someone else will clean it up, probably.
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Aug 4, 2023 14:53
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mrpwase posted:I would argue about what the social contract is and how it applies in this situation but I'd rather just call you a oval office. Good point, well made
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Aug 4, 2023 14:55
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e: not worth the energy
fuctifino fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Aug 4, 2023 |
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Aug 4, 2023 14:57
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The model of the social contract There is a general form of social contract theories, which is: I chooses R in M and this gives I* reason to endorse and comply with R in the real world insofar as the reasons I has for choosing R in M are (or can be) shared by I*.[5] With M being the deliberative setting; R rules, principles or institutions; I the (hypothetical) people in original position or state of nature making the social contract; and I* being the individuals in the real world following the social contract https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract I vaguely remember reading the Rousseau as a teen around the same time as I read The Communist Manifesto.
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Aug 4, 2023 14:57
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fuctifino posted:No, you really are dense and it really is a waste of time and energy to point out the many flaws in your 'logic'. I don't hate anyone son I just don't think the traditional traveller lifestyle is particularly compatible with life in modern Britain. Never called anyone thieves or scum. Not wishing death on people, unlike other posters in this thread.
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Aug 4, 2023 15:08
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DreddyMatt posted:I don't hate anyone son You're advocating for a way of life to be completely eradicated because you are self-absorbed enough to believe that it is inherently invalid because you have had a couple of bad run ins. Cop yourself on.
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Aug 4, 2023 15:12
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listen here you loony sunshines, I saw a black man once, never again, that's the point of the social contract, no blacks, you call me racist for that well what about stalin, what about him didn't think about that did you sunshine
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Aug 4, 2023 15:13
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you think you have the moral high ground on me, just because you talk about your "paradox of tolerance", bollocks, that's not a paradox, a paradox is thinking sex and gender are different isn't it sunshine my wife took the kids
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Aug 4, 2023 15:14
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DreddyMatt posted:I don't hate anyone son Lets say there's a miraculous invention released tomorrow that is a surefire way of stopping travellers getting onto private land. Or we give police the power to instantly move them on, with force if they resist. What, in that situation, do you think happens to the travellers?
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Aug 4, 2023 15:14
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