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People wanting the story to have some follow-through and not walk back every slightly dark or sad thing that happens in it is not the same thing as wanting the story to be dour or depressing and have a "bad ending". My opinion is that if they don't want to alter the tone by killing a main character, they should stop threatening to do that, because not only does it show that they want to have their cake and eat it too, the threat eventually loses all credibility. And personally, I prefer when things aren't wrapped up in a neat little bow. I don't need the characters to wallow in sadness, but I appreciate a sense of change and permanence.
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Aug 6, 2023 07:07
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Idly, for people who are familiar with Kuro 2: do all the 'bad end' alternate timelines fulfill, on some level the desire for darker follow-through that we're talking about, at least to you, or do they not?
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Aug 6, 2023 07:20
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To be clear I just really disagree with the idea that consequences "don't matter" if they are temporary and/or undone by further actions taken by the characters in the story. Like, (CS3/4) the whole source of tension and release behind Millium's death scene isn't just "oh no, Millium died", it's "oh no, Millium died right in front of Rean and poo poo's about to get really bad cause oh boy he's not taking this well at all" and the whole ending of the game and the entire first third of CS4 are a cascading series of consequences borne from that one singular event. And really that's all that matters, cause even though everyone who played the game knew with absolute certainty that they would walk back Millium's death in some way, it's not like any of the characters knew this or had any reason beyond blind faith that such a thing would be possible.
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Aug 6, 2023 07:33
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Super Jay Mann posted:To be clear I just really disagree with the idea that consequences "don't matter" if they are temporary and/or undone by further actions taken by the characters in the story. In theory I agree but Trails runs into the problem of doing it so often even the characters start to find it devalued. Like there's literally multiple sequences in Reverie where the characters just go "Eh, it'll work out, it always does" when tasked with impossible dangers. You can do things the players are aware of but the characters aren't but once it happens so often the characters also are aware of it then you lose something. Likewise I think it's important for the impact not to be undone even if the consequence is. Claire, Lecter and Rufus basically just get forgiven by everyone despite everything that happened and their overt willingness to get people killed seemingly forever. poo poo Rufus murdered someone like a total shithead and that's one of the rare deaths that doesn't get undone and the most you get someone holding it against him is him cartoonishly fighting off Team Swordrocket. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Aug 6, 2023 |
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Aug 6, 2023 07:45
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Super Jay Mann posted:To be clear I just really disagree with the idea that consequences "don't matter" if they are temporary and/or undone by further actions taken by the characters in the story. Same, I knew Millium would come back in some way, but I enjoyed watching Rean, Jusis, and the rest of Class 7 reacting to her death and seeing how they handled both it and her coming back as a sword ghost
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Aug 6, 2023 07:49
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ImpAtom posted:poo poo Rufus murdered someone like a total shithead and that's one of the rare deaths that doesn't get undone and the most you get someone holding it against him is him cartoonishly fighting off Team Swordrocket. Duvalie bringing Rufus a gift basket in the hospital with a facial expression that could only be described as "full tsundere" was definitely the weirdest part of the Reverie end credits.
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Aug 6, 2023 07:53
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ImpAtom posted:Likewise I think it's important for the impact not to be undone even if the consequence is. Claire, Lecter and Rufus basically just get forgiven by everyone despite everything that happened and their overt willingness to get people killed seemingly forever. poo poo Rufus murdered someone like a total shithead and that's one of the rare deaths that doesn't get undone and the most you get someone holding it against him is him cartoonishly fighting off Team Swordrocket. Reverie: I think it's more important and interesting that while Class 7 and the rest of the country might have forgiven Lecter and Claire, they can't forgive themselves. Claire has a whole speech not 30 minutes into Rean's route where she says she still kind of hates herself for everything she's done as an Ironblood but is putting in the work to fix Erebonia post-Twilight so that one day she can truly be happy
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Aug 6, 2023 07:57
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the way id put is that for a series that loves little details as much as trails they also seem disinclined to explore much of the A-B when it comes to getting characters where they want them to be for big moments (reverie spoilers) i think duvalie coming to forgive and respect rufus is a really interesting idea but they dont really give those two much time at all to have like, quiet character moments that might bridge that gap
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Aug 6, 2023 08:04
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Plus, Rufus' whole Arc in Reverie is about how he deals with the guilt of his actions, from various angles. His whole party consists of people who either confront him with his past misdeeds (Duvalie), contrast them by having done things of a similar nature (Swin and Nadia's assassin life, Renne's Enforcer work, Arios's side-switching for the sake of his daughter) or, yunno, just talk to him about the nature of sin, souls, and redemption (Lapis). His big moment prior to full endgame is him coming across a clone of himself with no guilt whatsoever, and triumphing over it by regretting what he's done.
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Aug 6, 2023 08:08
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SgtSteel91 posted:Reverie: I think it's more important and interesting that while Class 7 and the rest of the country might have forgiven Lecter and Claire, they can't forgive themselves. Claire has a whole speech not 30 minutes into Rean's route where she says she still kind of hates herself for everything she's done as an Ironblood but is putting in the work to fix Erebonia post-Twilight so that one day she can truly be happy The problem I have there is that their Daydreams are at their most interesting when they show the characters having to deal with the consequences of their actions outside of their own head. Claire is a lot more interesting when she is genuinely working hard and has to accept that what she did may have broken relationships that can't be mended but that isn't a reason for her to stop, and Lechter being effectively distrusted by everyone except his two closest friends is a lot more impactful. It doesn't need to be every character but if you betray everyone you know and try to murder them there should be at least a few hurt feelings. I also think it denys other characters the chance to have real texture. Even within the confines of shonen anime people are allowed to hold grudges, not get along, hate each other or refuse to forgive terrible actions. If everyone forgives everyone without hesitation then you lose the chance to show that part of characters, and when you're dealing with a franchise literally about the horrible lasting hatred of war and the scars it leaves behind sometimes that is necessary. Even in the confines of a super heroic shonen anime like that's still a thing. Endorph posted:the way id put is that for a series that loves little details as much as trails they also seem disinclined to explore much of the A-B when it comes to getting characters where they want them to be for big moments Yeah, I'd be fine with it being an eventual plot, but they need a moment to really make it shine and Rufus needs to really earn it doing something besides cosplaying Lelouch.
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Aug 6, 2023 08:11
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ImpAtom posted:The problem I have there is that their Daydreams are at their most interesting when they show the characters having to deal with the consequences of their actions outside of their own head. Claire is a lot more interesting when she is genuinely working hard and has to accept that what she did may have broken relationships that can't be mended but that isn't a reason for her to stop, and Lechter being effectively distrusted by everyone except his two closest friends is a lot more impactful. It doesn't need to be every character but if you betray everyone you know and try to murder them there should be at least a few hurt feelings. But like the crux of the ending of CS4, and pretty much the entire West Zumeria saga, is ending that cycle of hatred that's perpetuated by war and healing those scars, cause that's what gave rise of Ishmelga and the Curse of Erebonia in the first place. So it's better to forgive and allow people who've done wrong the chance to make amends than blame them and hate them forever
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Aug 6, 2023 08:17
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SgtSteel91 posted:But like the crux of the ending of CS4, and pretty much the entire West Zumeria saga, is ending that cycle of hatred that's perpetuated by war and healing those scars, cause that's what gave rise of Ishmelga and the Curse of Erebonia in the first place. So it's better to forgive and allow people who've done wrong the chance to make amends than blame them and hate them forever itd be good to see characters struggling with that rather than it just kind of happening. like basically none of the characters who are meant to be good people are allowed to carry grudges that long. some amount of struggle or failure in that goal would make it land better when they do eventually forgive them, rather than just 'its okay' instantly.
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Aug 6, 2023 08:20
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Endorph posted:itd be good to see characters struggling with that rather than it just kind of happening. like basically none of the characters who are meant to be good people are allowed to carry grudges that long. some amount of struggle or failure in that goal would make it land better when they do eventually forgive them, rather than just 'its okay' instantly. We did see that, across 4 games! 5 if you also include the Sky and Crossbell games
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Aug 6, 2023 08:24
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SgtSteel91 posted:We did see that, across 4 games! 5 if you also include the Sky and Crossbell games like what i want here is characters understanding that lesson in their heads but struggling to act on it. that kind of conflict is interesting. but the only characters who are really allowed to struggle with it are the designated comic relief.
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Aug 6, 2023 08:27
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I get that, but I think the heroes grew across the entirety of the West Zumeria arc into people who wouldn't hold a grudge or have a struggle like that, which is neat to me since it shows how far each of them has come from their first appearance in their respective games.
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Aug 6, 2023 08:37
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See: Jusis and Machias.
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Aug 6, 2023 08:49
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Junpei posted:Idly, for people who are familiar with Kuro 2: do all the 'bad end' alternate timelines fulfill, on some level the desire for darker follow-through that we're talking about, at least to you, or do they not? Nope. Kuro 1 & 2 spoilers: It was basically a way for the stakes to be raised higher only to be immediately undone and the bad ends in Act 3 of Kuro 2 become so absurd it becomes hilarious more than anything, I really hope Kuro 3 doesn't have them. Having said that, Kuro is still better about it than Cold Steel in that Creil Village is still nuked and Dingo is still dead, despite the recreation of him in Kuro 2 causing problems.
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Aug 6, 2023 09:46
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The CIA documents all basically echo one of my previous sentiments; Trails has a lot of Text, but it's not all used well. The more text the better, but there comes a point where individual characters don't benefit from it cuz they've had so much. This is most obviously felt in Zero where the SSS hog 90% of the text in the game, and all stop benefitting from it outside of focus scenes halfway into the game. But it's hampered quite a few side characters and pretty much all the villains. This is why I propose Doordreams in more games, to take us away from the main protagonists more often. Also, Doordreams are just cool. MythosDragon fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Aug 6, 2023 |
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Aug 6, 2023 12:43
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ImpAtom posted:Likewise I think it's important for the impact not to be undone even if the consequence is. Claire, Lecter and Rufus basically just get forgiven by everyone despite everything that happened and their overt willingness to get people killed seemingly forever. poo poo Rufus murdered someone like a total shithead and that's one of the rare deaths that doesn't get undone and the most you get someone holding it against him is him cartoonishly fighting off Team Swordrocket. He's in his Quattro years, that's just how it be.
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Aug 6, 2023 12:47
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Quattro Vagina.
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Aug 6, 2023 12:50
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Those who say the Cold Steels games have no stakes are so quick to forget (CS2) the Celdic Market Manager. 
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Aug 6, 2023 13:24
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Tesseraction posted:Those who say the Cold Steels games have no stakes are so quick to forget (CS2) the Celdic Market Manager. I cry every time I see Otto in Crossbell Admin Square...
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Aug 6, 2023 13:29
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The cool thing about playing Crossbell is that it gives new context to the end of Cold Steel 2. Yeah I knew that Osborne annexed some part of the world, but actually exploring Crossbell and it’s various locales really makes it hit different knowing that at the end of Azure, Erebonia is gonna roll up with their new gundams after whatever the gently caress leads to the giant glowing tree gets sorted out, especially since Crossbell feels small compared to Erebonia even besides the whole 2D/3D comparison. It’s honestly kind of a bummer, but I do sympathize infinitely more with Juna, I only played up to the end of the CS3 demo but yeah, it’s more understandable how aggro she is.
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Aug 6, 2023 13:58
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SgtSteel91 posted:Disagree I wouldn't say a totally happy ending for everyone since (CS 4 True end) Alisa's dad still died for no apparent reason despite "the infinite power of Two Sept-Terrions" literally right there granting free rez's at that exact moment. SgtSteel91 posted:Can't really retort to any of that; even I know things work out okay in the end, and it's been a thing since Trails in the Sky, but I'm able to adjust my willing suspense of disbelief and 'play along' when the story says there's stakes or gets serious. Good for you, but SOME people get sick of writers cynically pulling tricks to manipulate their audience over and over again. The mischievous boy has falsely called "Wolf!!" too many times, so I have no trust in any future cries. Super Jay Mann posted:To be clear I just really disagree with the idea that consequences "don't matter" if they are temporary and/or undone by further actions taken by the characters in the story. The problem is that the primary target for evoking emotions has to be the audience. If the characters believe it, but the audience doesn't, even an excellent performance by the actors isn't going to move the uncaring audience. Take the scenes in Reverie's Finale dungeon: Nadia and C end up on one team split off from Lapis and Swin, and both sides equally angst about the other team wondering if they'll ever see them again. I get why the characters said that, but to me those scenes were just wasting time because I had zero fear or worries about that possibility happening. SgtSteel91 posted:Reverie: I think it's more important and interesting that while Class 7 and the rest of the country might have forgiven Lecter and Claire, they can't forgive themselves. Claire has a whole speech not 30 minutes into Rean's route where she says she still kind of hates herself for everything she's done as an Ironblood but is putting in the work to fix Erebonia post-Twilight so that one day she can truly be happy (Reverie) My response to them not forgiving themselves is "GOOD." They should not. My complaint though is that I don't think Class VII should forgive them either - ESPECIALLY Altina, whose existence was deemed "more expendable," because they were both willing to use lethal force to prevent Class VII from stopping the murder of a child. It's not 'better' that they were doing it to save the child they knew better and cared about more. SgtSteel91 posted:I get that, but I think the heroes grew across the entirety of the West Zumeria arc into people who wouldn't hold a grudge or have a struggle like that, which is neat to me since it shows how far each of them has come from their first appearance in their respective games. But people are always going to be flawed, imperfect beings. Having every single major character becoming indistinguishable, all-loving saints who no longer have moments of anger or resentment just strikes me as false. It's okay for people to be imperfect. Like, take Randy, for instance. He's a great character because of his flaws, not in spite of them. He notably had a really great scene in Reverie which wouldn't have been possible without his flaws. It feels a lot like Falcom cares so much now about wanting their characters to be popular and loved that they aren't willing to explore any nuance or layers, nothing complicated or messy. In CS 1, Gaius was incredibly angry at the terrorists who nearly brought war to his home. Machias said terrorists should be handled with an iron fist. In CS 2, not a word is said by him against the leader of those terrorists. Machias is much the same. At best in CS 4, there's slight awkwardness around Crow. Or take Laura and Fie's conflict in CS 1. At the time, I had originally thought that it was in part about (Sky FC) jaegers attacking Bracer Guild branches, such as the one in Legram, but it never even comes up at all. That could have been an interesting layer.
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Aug 6, 2023 14:52
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Super Jay Mann posted:I swear some of you legitimately believe that CS4 would have been better if the bad ending were the "real" ending. Unequivocally yes.
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Aug 6, 2023 15:40
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:I wouldn't say a totally happy ending for everyone since (CS 4 True end) Alisa's dad still died for no apparent reason despite "the infinite power of Two Sept-Terrions" literally right there granting free rez's at that exact moment. The greatest dick move in the history of happy endings, closed by the moderators after 1309 hours of playtime.
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Aug 6, 2023 16:06
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I always associate X and Y to their positions on Xbox and it’s made the Ghost House in azure impossible on switch.
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Aug 6, 2023 16:08
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TheMightyBoops posted:I always associate X and Y to their positions on Xbox and it’s made the Ghost House in azure impossible on switch. Welcome to me playing Rain Code and getting reamed by the QTEs because I, being a PlayStation player primarily, instinctively hit the bottom face button when I see an X when it's the top face button on the switch. To say nothing of being then more used to the Xbox controller due to using it for Windows, so the Switch having A on the right and B on the bottom is the polar opposite of how it is on the Xbox controller.
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Aug 6, 2023 16:20
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[Reverie spoilers] Yeah, it really bothered me that there were pretty much zero substantive consequences for Lechter and Claire. Claire was forced into a different job? She hates herself? People now trust Lechter even less than they used to (but only slightly)? ...That's it? Exactly one NPC has the balls to call Claire out for what she did and makes sure to really drive home that she's a piece of poo poo who knowingly and willingly got a bunch of innocent people killed and ruined untold lives. And it happens in an optional Daydream sequence. And even she ends up feeling sorry for Claire and forgives her at the end of the Daydream. Why the hell is Class VII even talking to them? Edit: Hell, more people in Reverie call out Arios for what he did five games ago (although not to his face) than say much of anything about Claire/Lechter. ...! fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Aug 6, 2023 |
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Aug 6, 2023 16:32
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...! posted:[Reverie spoilers] Yeah, it really bothered me that there were pretty much zero substantive consequences for Lechter and Claire. Claire was forced into a different job? She hates herself? People now trust Lechter even less than they used to (but only slightly)? ...That's it? Because she needs to be a playable character in Trails of Avengers Endgame in 2040 I guess. The game wouldn't function without Claire and Lechter showing up in scenes to say a single quip.
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Aug 6, 2023 16:41
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i don't know if these games have popularity rankings but i'm curious how lechter is received by general audiences, because i volcanically hated that little poo poo within the first hour of his appearance in 3rd and it sounds like he becomes more and more of a writer's pet with every entry
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Aug 6, 2023 16:44
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Oxxidation posted:i don't know if these games have popularity rankings but i'm curious how lechter is received by general audiences, because i volcanically hated that little poo poo within the first hour of his appearance in 3rd and it sounds like he becomes more and more of a writer's pet with every entry I do not like him at all.
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Aug 6, 2023 16:48
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Oxxidation posted:i don't know if these games have popularity rankings but i'm curious how lechter is received by general audiences, because i volcanically hated that little poo poo within the first hour of his appearance in 3rd and it sounds like he becomes more and more of a writer's pet with every entry They do: https://www.reddit.com/r/Falcom/com...nt=1&utm_term=1 According to their 40th Anniversary poll, he doesn’t make top 20
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Aug 6, 2023 16:50
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SgtSteel91 posted:They do: https://www.reddit.com/r/Falcom/com...nt=1&utm_term=1 Hmm. No Agate it seems like Falcom should take that hint too. I also don’t think any of those were Tita, they might have different art in a later game or something. Olivert should be 1, 2 and 3 though.
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Aug 6, 2023 16:54
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I don't even get the guilt those characters are experiencing, personally. Like, with Osborne's final plan, the whole point of the war was to kill the evil god so Erebonia wouldn't keep going to war on account of it constantly pushing the country toward that. They didn't go to war for funsies, it had a purpose and the purpose was achieved and Erebonia will be better for it. So will everyone else Erebonia went to war with before, on account of the fact Erebonia will be going to war with them less in the future. Like, I'm not praising it as Hard Men Making Hard Decisions or anything, it's just something that had to happen sooner or later. They got the bum hand and had to deal with it in their time rather than continuing to push off that reckoning into the indefinite future. That isn't some indelible sin that will never wash away! Being guilty about Millium and Altina is one thing, but that's not even usually what they're focused on.
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Aug 6, 2023 17:01
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...! posted:[Reverie spoilers] Exactly one NPC has the balls to call Claire out for what she did and makes sure to really drive home that she's a piece of poo poo who knowingly and willingly got a bunch of innocent people killed and ruined untold lives. And it happens in an optional Daydream sequence. And even she ends up feeling sorry for Claire and forgives her at the end of the Daydream. Yeah, it's practically deranged how (Azure/Reverie) buddy-buddy everyone is with Arios. Especially Lloyd, because five years ago, he made a clear and calm decision that Guy Bannings had to die. He was confronted by Guy and made his choice. It was not him losing his cool and acting impulsively. That Arios was not ultimately the one who ended Guy's life does not erase his decision. Feeling BAD about doing it is not punishment, especially since he continue to actively do bad things and work to further the conspiracy's ends up until the very end. But hey, Lloyd is just totally cool with this confessed attempted murderer and conspiracy participant to just walk freely around the city. The fact that Arios willingly and with premeditation broke all three three principles of the Bracer Guild code and they just let him back in like nothing happened really leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Along those lines, Did literally none of the CGF/CPD killed by the RC during their attack have any family at all? Did none of them have a father, mother, brother, sister, son, or daughter? How would such survivors feel to see the man who participated in the conspiracy which killed them keep his job his status and freedom? The series handles redemption in an overly neat and clean way. There are almost never scenes where the ex/reforming villain is confronted by the ones they have hurt, or the families of their victims. They're almost never confronted with the pain they left behind. The exceptions being (Reverie/Act 4 C route) Wald in Reverie - and for once, the people he hurt say "no, we can't forgive you," although they're still friends at the end. Then there's also Duvalie and Rufus, but that's treated as laughs for Poor Duvalie Who Just Cannot Win. Einander posted:I don't even get the guilt those characters are experiencing, personally. Like, with Osborne's final plan, the whole point of the war was to kill the evil god so Erebonia wouldn't keep going to war on account of it constantly pushing the country toward that. They didn't go to war for funsies, it had a purpose and the purpose was achieved and Erebonia will be better for it. So will everyone else Erebonia went to war with before, on account of the fact Erebonia will be going to war with them less in the future. The problem is that they didn't know anything about the goal at all. They just obeyed because of their fanatical loyalty. I'm not sure if they even knew the final plan even in the Empyreal Fortress. I don't even think that Osborne - having surrendered himself to and being possessed by The Ultimate Evil - was permitted to even articulate his double-secret goal of killing the thing possessing him. Or at least I doubt he would considering how colossally bad an idea that would be. Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Aug 6, 2023 |
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Aug 6, 2023 17:09
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I generally believe in the power of forgiveness and I'm not advocating for harsh punishment for these characters or anything, but I feel like the way Trails doles out that forgiveness is too easy and flattens all the actual conflict, all the interesting drama, into nothing by making it so simple to forgive basically anything. There's very rarely any real reckoning with the actual misdeed. Forgiveness being that easy cheapens it and makes it kind of meaningless. I get that this is, at best, an outright overbearingly optimistic series, but I do think it's possible to do both in this case, to take the misdeeds into account while endeavoring to move forward.
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Aug 6, 2023 17:43
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SgtSteel91 posted:They do: https://www.reddit.com/r/Falcom/com...nt=1&utm_term=1 Would be nice if they put names on that!
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Aug 6, 2023 18:29
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...! posted:Would be nice if they put names on that! 1: Rean 2: Adol (Ys) 3: Estelle 4: Crow 5: Dana (Ys) 6: Lloyd 7: Altina 8: Hummel (Ys) 9: Tio 10: Fie 11: Emma 12: Olivier 13: Joshua 14: Feena (Ys) 15: Renne 16: Leonhardt 17: Lilia (Ys) 18: Alisa 19: Rixia 20: Rufus
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Aug 6, 2023 18:51
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EDIT: Beaten on the names. So have some other stuff instead to not waste a post. Reverie - Coda speculation So I just finished Stratum 6 and saw (Reverie/Azure end) the mystery entity which looks like KeA but is not. KeA, Millium and Altina are all getting a strange feeling. So my theory is that the entity is the Sept-Terrion of Zero which KeA discarded into the void when she went back to being a normal person. Speaking of the Reverie Finale (not the Coda, the climax of the Finale before that)... How does Elysium, an AI capable of creating Lapis - an entity which is extremely good at emulating or experiencing human emotions – manage to have such a poor grasp on understanding humans? This AI, it's so super-smart that it can accurately predict human behavior patterns well in advance, right? If the AI's goal is to bring peace to the world, WHY would it think that the right being for the job is the literal manifestation of human evil incarnate? A nihilistic being of hate and malice which only wants to destroy all. What part of that sounds like it would be a good shepherd to bring enlightenment and peace? I was trying to pay attention to the final boss motive rant and such, but I didn't get that part. Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Aug 6, 2023 |
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Aug 6, 2023 18:53
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