[Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

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Sunny Side Up: Jun 22, 2004; Mayoist Third Condimentist

Tsitsikovas posted:

Been spending my summer getting back to basics, and reading a lot. Real quick: got a degree in cultural studies, all my profs were structuralist AF, spent the next decade being a dopey half-assed anarchist increasingly disenchanted with the entire ethos in the US. Anyway...

Recently, I found this from Marx, in the preface of his "Critique to the Critique of Political Economy"

Not necessarily to counter your argument, but I found it interesting how steadfast the materialist senses of Marx were. Figure its relevant to where your heads seemingly at.

It''s a tightrope for sure but part of the whole Base/Superstructure formula is that they feed off each other. I don't think your point is exactly controversial but people generally work off concrete proof. You don't change the culture without addressing material needs. Of course this is where poo poo like fascism can come on in, and why liberalism is such a failure - you can get anyone to buy into any ideology if you feed house and clothe them.

Bringing this to china: I think you can see the CPC is very steadfast in maintaining their culture (SWCC) because of both affecting material changes (leading the way in increasing standards of living and combating climate change) AND reinforcing cultural standards. You can see examples in how they handle political corruption (the recent case of Zhou Jiangyong being charged with probationary death penalty for accepting bribes), or how they handled Jack Ma. Yes, Jack Ma is allowed to exist but it's still wild that a state government did what they did to him within that context. Imagine a western government cancelling an IPO and forcing a CEO to step down and get out of the public eye. Imagine if the US did that to Jeff Bezos.

so yeah this topic is what has been really engaging me for like the past 1.5 years because of both the public, govt, and bourgeoisie responses to both covid and more and increasingly obvious climate catastrophe

i'd definitely referenced that writing before (and also Engels' "Letter to J. Bloch"), and this whole conversation here in this thread motivated me to finally crack open Edara's "Biography of a Blunder" exactly on the topic of Base vs Superstructure and Marx's analysis plus revisit the original CPC debate from the 70s

a big thing is that the base is primary "in the last instance" so it isn't causal it's instead (as far as I understand) setting boundaries on what the ideological apparatus can do. class consciousness (and other forms of consciousness) are not capital-D Determined by material reality but instead in a more dynamic relationship with historical circumstances. Edara also ostensibly clarifies that while there are many ISAs, Marx asserted that those which determine the superstructure are few and limited (politics & law?).

So yeah i'm not just thinking about policies which keep you balanced on the tightrope but instead how material reality, perceptual experience is straight up rejected due to ideology (the reproduction of ideology, like eggs laid in your brain). it makes sense in tandem with that book i recommended a few pages ago (Revolutionary Learning by Mojab & Carpenter) which made an incredibly thorough argument prescribing diamat and Freireian group learning as the antidote to the Capitalist brainworms (i.e. part of the ideal of a struggle session during the GPCR, especially as outlined by Liu Shaoqi in "Inner Party Struggle").

# ? Aug 2, 2023 20:36

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# ? May 30, 2024 01:21

Mechafunkzilla: Sep 11, 2006; If you want a vision of the future...

Miles Blundell posted:

I think that point 2 is critically important. I often feel that the international aspect of industrial human civilization and existence within American hegemonic imperialism is something that people don't take into account often enough when they think about socialism. You can't just expect America to stand by and let you have a powerful country without rich people, they will loving kill you.

Acting like China or any other state exists in a vacuum leads to some pretty stupid takes about how they're not developing the productive forces of the country in the most morally just way possible and how that means they're actually bad. They're working in the real world, not a fantasy one.

China is above all practical, and the argument can be made either way to what degree foreign investment and a domestic bourgeoisie are necessary for economic development, but my worry is that in basically abandoning political and ideological education they're just going to be cultivating generations of capitalists. It's like vanguardism flipped on its head, where class consciousness is a commodity to be hoarded by party officials.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 20:42

In Training: Jun 28, 2008

In what ways has china abandoned political education?

# ? Aug 2, 2023 20:44

Centrist Committee: Aug 6, 2019

Mechafunkzilla posted:

China is above all practical, and the argument can be made either way to what degree foreign investment and a domestic bourgeoisie are necessary for economic development, but my worry is that in basically abandoning political and ideological education they're just going to be cultivating generations of capitalists. It's like vanguardism flipped on its head, where class consciousness is a commodity to be hoarded by party officials.

isnt xi all about party members studying marks and ingles tho?

# ? Aug 2, 2023 20:45

Mechafunkzilla: Sep 11, 2006; If you want a vision of the future...

In Training posted:

In what ways has china abandoned political education?

I can only speak from my own experience living, working, and attending university in China, but it just...isn't there. The ideology of normal people basically just aligns with the dominant ideology of international financial capitalism, and there is no intervening attempt from educational institutions or media to think in terms of labor and capital, class struggle, historical materialism, etc. It's not just that there's a tolerated pet bourgeoisie, at this point the aspirations or working people are just bourgeois aspirations.

Centrist Committee posted:

isnt xi all about party members studying marks and ingles tho?

This is what I'm talking about -- that's it's compartmentalized to the party, while the general populace are basically excluded. Why?

# ? Aug 2, 2023 21:10

Centrist Committee: Aug 6, 2019

Mechafunkzilla posted:

This is what I'm talking about -- that's it's compartmentalized to the party, while the general populace are basically excluded. Why?

I mean, that�s a hundred million people which already makes it one of the largest social organisms to ever exist, plus I assume all the infrastructure that feeds the party and all the points of intersection between the party and the rest of society. idk most people aren�t theory nerds and would rather do other poo poo. hell, same

# ? Aug 2, 2023 21:21

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Mechafunkzilla posted:

I can only speak from my own experience living, working, and attending university in China, but it just...isn't there. The ideology of normal people basically just aligns with the dominant ideology of international financial capitalism, and there is no intervening attempt from educational institutions or media to think in terms of labor and capital, class struggle, historical materialism, etc. It's not just that there's a tolerated pet bourgeoisie, at this point the aspirations or working people are just bourgeois aspirations.

This is what I'm talking about -- that's it's compartmentalized to the party, while the general populace are basically excluded. Why?

reading between the lines of this FT article, would you think the increased outreach is helping or is it just happening in a compartmentalized way? maybe it needs some more years to really reap the rewards.

China�s Marxism majors prosper amid labour market woes

www.ft.com posted:

Chinese university graduates are struggling to find work in the country�s worst labour market in years � unless they have degrees in Marxism.

Despite being China�s ruling ideology, Marxism has for decades been an obscure major for students. But it is enjoying a revival under President Xi Jinping, who has urged Chinese Communist party cadres to �remember the original mission� as he prepares to begin an unprecedented third term in power this year.

According to Yingjiesheng, a leading job search website for university graduates, there has been a 20 per cent increase in openings that require a Marxism degree in the second quarter � the peak hiring season � compared with the same period last year. Marxism experts are being sought by employers ranging from government departments to private conglomerates.

Analysts said the popularity of Marxism graduates underscored Xi�s efforts to strengthen ideological education as China�s rivalry with the US intensified, with the powers taking radically different approaches to everything from Russia�s invasion of Ukraine to coronavirus pandemic management.

�The purpose of the major is to train thought police to brainwash the entire population,� said Ming Xia, a political-science professor at the City University of New York.

Chinese universities offering Marxism degrees inculcate students in the philosophy developed by Karl Marx as interpreted by Xi and his revolutionary idol, Mao Zedong.

A curriculum for a three-year masters program in Marxism at a university in central Henan province includes a module on the �principle and methods of thought education� and 18 hours of study of Xi�s speeches on education.

Prior to Xi�s rise to power in late 2012, Marxism courses struggled to gain traction in a country that emphasised economic prosperity over ideological correctness during the three-decade reform era launched by Deng Xiaoping in 1978.

Under Deng, the party popularised catchphrases such as �it is glorious to get rich� and assured entrepreneurs that it was acceptable for �some people to get rich first�. Deng�s successor as leader, Jiang Zemin, formally invited private sector businessmen and women to join the party.

Xi, however, has made it clear that he intends to preside over an ideologically stricter �new era� that will prioritise �common prosperity�, tighter regulation of private sector conglomerates and a less stark rich-poor divide in what is one of the world�s most unequal societies.

Xi�s government has cracked down on young people who apply Marxist analysis too critically to abuses of labour allowed under China�s system of state capitalism. But it has boosted demand for Marxism teachers, who now play a critical role in educating the public about why China�s communist regime is superior to the west.

In a circular issued in 2018, the same year the party eliminated the previous two-term limit on the presidency, the education ministry told universities they should hire at least one Marxism instructor for every 350 students.

A talent acquisition boom quickly followed, with the number of university �ideology and politics� teachers increasing by two-thirds over the next four years.

The degree appears recession-proof. Youth unemployment is at a historic high of 18.4 per cent, limiting the number of opportunities available for other majors. But Yingjiesheng records show that Marxism teachers� salaries and benefits are catching up with those on offer to jobseekers with previously more popular majors such as business administration.

In northern Shaanxi province, where urban workers make an average of Rmb52,000 ($7,760) per year, Xi�an University of Science and Technology is offering Marxism PhDs an annual base salary of Rmb200,000, a Rmb20,000 signing bonus and free housing.

�This is the golden time for Marxism majors,� said an official at the university, who asked not to be identified because he was not authorised to speak with foreign media.

Other education institutions, ranging from kindergartens to high schools, are also actively hiring Marxism graduates in accordance with directives requiring students as young as 10 to study �Xi Jinping thought�.

On southern Hainan island, one elite high school is offering Marxism teachers annual salaries of Rmb150,000, high by local standards.

�The study of Marxism and Xi Jinping thought must begin from an early age,� said an official at PKU Haikou High School, which is affiliated with Peking University in Beijing. �That creates ample demand for tutors.�

Private sector companies are also hiring Marxism majors in an effort to showcase their allegiance to the party in the wake of crackdowns on technology and property entrepreneurs such as Jack Ma, founder of Alibaba and Ant, and China Evergrande chair Hui Ka Yan.

�It helps to have someone who speaks the party�s language work for us,� said David Tong, who owns a machine tool factory in the eastern city of Ningbo, near Shanghai. �The government will trust us more.�

Tong recently hired a Marxism expert to help his firm improve communication with local authorities. The hire had an immediate impact.

Shortly after starting, the in-house Marxist showed Tong an �inappropriate� article in his company�s internal magazine that had criticised China�s draconian film censorship regime.

Tong showed the Financial Times a message from the hire that said: �It is OK for someone to have his or her own opinion about how the government controls the media, but the publication of such views in our company magazine will lead to misunderstanding that we support ideas against the official line.�

Tong said he appreciated the advice and promptly removed the article.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 21:26

In Training: Jun 28, 2008

Lol I like the quote from a polisci professor scaremongering about the Thought Police while probably just being a neoliberal thought enforcer at a public university.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 21:32

Brain Candy: May 18, 2006

In Training posted:

Lol I like the quote from a polisci professor scaremongering about the Thought Police while probably just being a neoliberal thought enforcer at a public university.

yeah it ruled

# ? Aug 2, 2023 21:33

Mechafunkzilla: Sep 11, 2006; If you want a vision of the future...

mawarannahr posted:

reading between the lines of this FT article, would you think the increased outreach is helping or is it just happening in a compartmentalized way? maybe it needs some more years to really reap the rewards.

China�s Marxism majors prosper amid labour market woes

We'll see, I guess? I think ultimately the party has a very complicated and somewhat schizophrenic relationship to socialism, so I'd be interested to see how whatever ideology is represented by a "Marxism degree" accommodates competing demands of nationalism, centralism, cultural conservatism, intraparty political loyalty, etc. The quote from the CUNY guy is very funny tho, considering the ideological buy-in that goes into, say, getting a JD at Yale

Really, I just think this "master plan" attitude where China pivots to a classless society after it develops sufficiently and attains hegemony is kind of naive, and not only because of how powerfully capitalism leverages the incentives of material self-interest. There's a lot of credence given to how the CCP keeps a certain strain of bourgeoisie under its thumb -- the Jack Ma types; tech billionaires, entrepreneurs, private equity guys, that sort. But the more mundane wealth -- real estate, construction, manufacturing, that kind of thing -- is totally intertwined with government officials. I've met a lot of factory owners through my old job and they're literally all the nephew of the former mayor or the cousin of governor of the province or whatever. Real feudal poo poo, when Taiwanese investment first came in in the 90's and new enterprises required public/private partnership it was all done through family connections. So the idea that there's this cordoned-off bourgeoisie who can be purged by real communists when the time comes feels kind of laughable, they'd be purging their own families.

Mechafunkzilla has issued a correction as of 22:11 on Aug 2, 2023

# ? Aug 2, 2023 21:57

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Ferrinus posted:

a good example here is vietnam, as described in luna oi's "is vietnam socialist?" video somewhere on youtube. communist vietnam used to be able to depend on the ussr to provide them with various technical and subsistence resources. then the ussr fell, so the vietnamese could basically choose either

1. total economic autarky in which they bootstrap themselves the rest of the way to modern development

2. liberalizing their economy so that they could take out loans and things to reach modern development way faster

1 wouldn't have been impossible. but it would have meant lagging massively behind every other country that did integrate itself into the capitalist world-system. is 1 the actual socialist choice, given that it entails damning your country's working class to a lower standard of life for a much longer time than 2? it's not ALWAYS the case that socialist revolution and direction increases proletarian standard of living, c.f. karl radek, but if your power depends on the approval of the masses rather than the approval of your fellow ideologically-aligned elites you actually do need to deliver running water and antibiotics at some point, especially if you just got done being insanely and relentlessly bombed

it's not that choice #2 here represents a necessarily compromise against the purity or true socialism of choice #1. choice #1 would have been less socialist, because the point of scientific socialism as compared against utopian socialism or anarchism or whatever is that it's how you win rather than lose, and #1 would've been a fast way to lose

has any country ever actually achieved autarky? it always seems like a magic bullet that never pans out

# ? Aug 2, 2023 22:04

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Raskolnikov38 posted:

has any country ever actually achieved autarky? it always seems like a magic bullet that never pans out

it used to be taught in turkey that turkey was the world's only completely self-sufficient country.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 22:05

Truga: May 4, 2014; Lipstick Apathy

autarky
ataturk
:thunk:

# ? Aug 2, 2023 22:09

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

The Demilich posted:

Before I mainline this thread from page 1 I'd like to throw a question out.

I'm looking to read up on the latest contemporary forms of Marxist government, specifically technical layouts like branches, ways of organizing representation, enshrining rights, methods of voting, and various other issues that others have no doubt written about.

Where should I start?

If you're looking for an example, I really liked "We Are Cuba!". It talks about this, the problems Cuba ran into, and how they were constantly reforming intuitions. That's only a few chapters in the book though, but it's a short read and a good book.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 22:09

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Truga posted:

autarky
ataturk

ataturkey

# ? Aug 2, 2023 22:13

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

If you're going to talk about countries trying to gain economic independence you should probably also point out that they were/are under heavy sanctions following their independence which made them reliant on the USSR.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 22:13

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Mechafunkzilla posted:

We'll see, I guess? I think ultimately the party has a very complicated and somewhat schizophrenic relationship to socialism, so I'd be interested to see how whatever ideology is represented by a "Marxism degree" accommodates competing demands of nationalism, centralism, cultural conservatism, intraparty political loyalty, etc. The quote from the CUNY guy is very funny tho, considering the ideological buy-in that goes into, say, getting a JD at Yale

Really, I just think this "master plan" attitude where China pivots to a classless society after it develops sufficiently and attains hegemony is kind of naive, and not only because of how powerfully capitalism leverages the incentives of material self-interest. There's a lot of credence given to how the CCP keeps a certain strain of bourgeoisie under its thumb -- the Jack Ma types; tech billionaires, entrepreneurs, private equity guys, that sort. But the more mundane wealth -- real estate, construction, manufacturing, that kind of thing -- is totally intertwined with government officials. I've met a lot of factory owners through my old job and they're literally all the nephew of the former mayor or the cousin of governor of the province or whatever. Real feudal poo poo, when Taiwanese investment first came in in the 90's and new enterprises required public/private partnership it was all done through family connections. So the idea that there's this cordoned-off bourgeoisie who can be purged by real communists when the time comes feels kind of laughable, they'd be purging their own families.

i wouldn't expect there ever to be some kind of face turn where the knives come out and the chinese bourgeoisie are liquidated for good, but rather the natural endpoint of A) the party being, ultimately, in charge in a bunch of overlapping ways and B) the selfsame business and familial entanglements you're talking about cutting both ways. when the way to stay comfy and influential is to hit 5-year-plan-dictated production targets that's what people will do

Raskolnikov38 posted:

has any country ever actually achieved autarky? it always seems like a magic bullet that never pans out

AnimeIsTrash posted:

If you're going to talk about countries trying to gain economic independence you should probably also point out that they were/are under heavy sanctions following their independence which made them reliant on the USSR.

i'm thinking about it and the second post might answer the first here. in practice socialist countries have been self-sustaining autarkies to the extent that western sanctions gave them no other choice, and still sold/imported whatever they were able to get away with in the process. i'm thinking here of the dprk and cuba but if if someone has other good examples or counterexamples please provide them

# ? Aug 2, 2023 23:08

DragQueenofAngmar: Dec 29, 2009; You shall not pass!

Tsitsikovas posted:

Been spending my summer getting back to basics, and reading a lot. Real quick: got a degree in cultural studies, all my profs were structuralist AF, spent the next decade being a dopey half-assed anarchist increasingly disenchanted with the entire ethos in the US. Anyway...

Recently, I found this from Marx, in the preface of his "Critique to the Critique of Political Economy"

Not necessarily to counter your argument, but I found it interesting how steadfast the materialist senses of Marx were. Figure its relevant to where your heads seemingly at.

It''s a tightrope for sure but part of the whole Base/Superstructure formula is that they feed off each other. I don't think your point is exactly controversial but people generally work off concrete proof. You don't change the culture without addressing material needs. Of course this is where poo poo like fascism can come on in, and why liberalism is such a failure - you can get anyone to buy into any ideology if you feed house and clothe them.

Bringing this to china: I think you can see the CPC is very steadfast in maintaining their culture (SWCC) because of both affecting material changes (leading the way in increasing standards of living and combating climate change) AND reinforcing cultural standards. You can see examples in how they handle political corruption (the recent case of Zhou Jiangyong being charged with probationary death penalty for accepting bribes), or how they handled Jack Ma. Yes, Jack Ma is allowed to exist but it's still wild that a state government did what they did to him within that context. Imagine a western government cancelling an IPO and forcing a CEO to step down and get out of the public eye. Imagine if the US did that to Jeff Bezos.

this is the idea I was vaguely gesturing at before, shouldn�t have made a drive by post tho

Mechafunkzilla posted:

Really, I just think this "master plan" attitude where China pivots to a classless society after it develops sufficiently and attains hegemony is kind of naive, and not only because of how powerfully capitalism leverages the incentives of material self-interest. There's a lot of credence given to how the CCP keeps a certain strain of bourgeoisie under its thumb -- the Jack Ma types; tech billionaires, entrepreneurs, private equity guys, that sort. But the more mundane wealth -- real estate, construction, manufacturing, that kind of thing -- is totally intertwined with government officials. I've met a lot of factory owners through my old job and they're literally all the nephew of the former mayor or the cousin of governor of the province or whatever. Real feudal poo poo, when Taiwanese investment first came in in the 90's and new enterprises required public/private partnership it was all done through family connections. So the idea that there's this cordoned-off bourgeoisie who can be purged by real communists when the time comes feels kind of laughable, they'd be purging their own families.

to expand, when I consider China as moving toward socialism, I�m not assuming that the next stage necessarily occurs as a result of the currently existing Chinese state deciding intentionally to take the next step. in the same way that capitalism was an improvement on feudalism and will not be replaced without struggle, China�s developmental trajectory might similarly be a necessary though incomplete stage that will need to be struggled against when it stagnates.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 23:45

Tsitsikovas: Aug 2, 2023

Mechafunkzilla posted:

The quote from the CUNY guy is very funny tho,

Rich considering how much CUNY (and by extension new york city and state) specifically hosed over professors who were trying to discuss and agitate for BDS. Or really just speaking about Palestine in anyway that isnt "they dont exist and if they do they suck"

Tsitsikovas has issued a correction as of 19:15 on Aug 4, 2023

# ? Aug 3, 2023 00:22

Rock Puncher: Jul 26, 2014

lighting up a fat meth pipe to welcome back my boy crew

# ? Aug 3, 2023 00:35

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Miles Blundell posted:

I think that point 2 is critically important. I often feel that the international aspect of industrial human civilization and existence within American hegemonic imperialism is something that people don't take into account often enough when they think about socialism. You can't just expect America to stand by and let you have a powerful country without rich people, they will loving kill you.

Acting like China or any other state exists in a vacuum leads to some pretty stupid takes about how they're not developing the productive forces of the country in the most morally just way possible and how that means they're actually bad. They're working in the real world, not a fantasy one.

Yeah, if we imagine the development of communism in a world equal to todays world but absent the United States it's going to look very, very different. Unfortuntaely the US exists.

# ? Aug 3, 2023 09:39

Sunny Side Up: Jun 22, 2004; Mayoist Third Condimentist

Miles Blundell posted:

I think that point 2 is critically important. I often feel that the international aspect of industrial human civilization and existence within American hegemonic imperialism is something that people don't take into account often enough when they think about socialism. You can't just expect America to stand by and let you have a powerful country without rich people, they will loving kill you.

Acting like China or any other state exists in a vacuum leads to some pretty stupid takes about how they're not developing the productive forces of the country in the most morally just way possible and how that means they're actually bad. They're working in the real world, not a fantasy one.

in terms of ethics & morality. if you aren't materially able to address certain socialist goals then you're not ethically obligated to do so. but on a moral level, it's not wishy-washy "develop the productive forces but be nice about it," a proletarian morality instead asks for struggle over what is necessitated for the proletariat's success in the class struggle and what is the priority (Lenin talks a little about this in "Tasks of the Youth Leagues")

Gabriel Rockhill's "intellectual world war" stuff is important contemporary history, here. you need ideological resilience or else you're losing to the hegemon on a different front. relations of production vs productive forces is valid ground on which to struggle.

the question of sidelining core priorities of any socialist project (decommodification, eliminating alienation, etc) is really just going back to "what is the primary contradiction?" like Totality said. it's prioritization.

# ? Aug 3, 2023 15:52

Centrist Committee: Aug 6, 2019

Sunny Side Up posted:

the question of sidelining core priorities of any socialist project (decommodification, eliminating alienation, etc) is really just going back to "what is the primary contradiction?" like Totality said. it's prioritization.

contradiction analysis is prioritization is a good way to put it

# ? Aug 3, 2023 17:24

stumblebum: May 8, 2022; no, what you want to do is get somebody mad enough to give you a red title you're proud of

does anyone know if there's been any writing on exploring the possibility that first-worlders' conception of political ideology as actually being reflective of their own commodity fetishism? specifically, the phenomenon of first-world leftists insisting that real communism is an instant and total transformation into its ideal end-state being an expectation from said leftists that a political ideology should arrive from the ideology store as a fully functional, constructed, and contained commodity?

# ? Aug 5, 2023 02:21

croup coughfield: Apr 8, 2020; Can't post for 68 days!

i wrote something itt about first world leftists wanting to leave the job to the global south like they do everything else. i hope thats helpful to you op

# ? Aug 5, 2023 02:22

stumblebum: May 8, 2022; no, what you want to do is get somebody mad enough to give you a red title you're proud of

sorry i dont read anarchist literature

# ? Aug 5, 2023 02:31

croup coughfield: Apr 8, 2020; Can't post for 68 days!

hosed up

# ? Aug 5, 2023 02:32

Bald Stalin: Jul 11, 2004; Our posts

stumblebum posted:

sorry i dont read anarchist literature

lol

# ? Aug 5, 2023 02:32

mila kunis: Jun 10, 2011

Bald Stalin posted:

why is the bourgeoisie required to develop productive forces? Why would democratically run factories running within a DotP necessarily become bourgeois?? Idgi.

its not necessarily. the west offered china access to sell to its internal market, trillions in capital, and technology transfers. in those circumstances, any path is going to succeed just from the sheer volume of trade, capital and knowledge flows. doing it via the bourgeoisie was the price of admission.

# ? Aug 5, 2023 03:10

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Orange Devil posted:

Unfortuntaely the US exists.

# ? Aug 5, 2023 07:54

Sunny Side Up: Jun 22, 2004; Mayoist Third Condimentist

stumblebum posted:

does anyone know if there's been any writing on exploring the possibility that first-worlders' conception of political ideology as actually being reflective of their own commodity fetishism? specifically, the phenomenon of first-world leftists insisting that real communism is an instant and total transformation into its ideal end-state being an expectation from said leftists that a political ideology should arrive from the ideology store as a fully functional, constructed, and contained commodity?

I think the sharp anti-communist turn of �left� philosophy celebrities and the reinvigoration of anarchism in the 1950s by 3-letter agencies contributed greatly, but realistically in my irl experience talking and making friends with anarkiddies there�s a consistent undercurrent of apocalyptic expectation.

As though after whatever catastrophe we will return to some kind of more humane social structure (usually fetishizing historical indigenous practices) and as though capitalism doesn�t exist on a small scale. Fully formed anarcho-communism as you describe. Like preppers except their go-bag only contains a sippy cup and their favorite toy.

# ? Aug 5, 2023 12:35

dead gay comedy forums: Oct 21, 2011

mawarannahr posted:

China�s Marxism majors prosper amid labour market woes

I wrote an effortpost earlier on about it but didn't go

there is definitely something better going on because I did some scouting about it because apparently some schools have courses for foreigners lol

From what I gathered, the "Marxism major" is very different from the other model of political education which I am more familiar with and have a bit of experience on teaching. It seems to be something between the academic course of political economy and general formation, which can be done by the party, school or any other communist organization, really. The latter has a difference in which is not bound to academic learning - this is what "socialist education" usually means - and can be a much more involved process. Of course, it also doesn't provide credentials, even though you might read more books in one year than an entire university course depending where you go lol

# ? Aug 5, 2023 21:15

HiroProtagonist: May 7, 2007

croup coughfield posted:

hosed up

nice meltdown

also lol at the 100k probe

# ? Aug 5, 2023 23:22

Hilario Baldness: Feb 10, 2005; Grimey Drawer

HiroProtagonist posted:

also lol at the 100k probe

He can join bigpeeler in the great ostrich pen in the sky

# ? Aug 6, 2023 00:28

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

This one is a custom job, 1 leap year.

# ? Aug 6, 2023 00:36

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

dead gay comedy forums posted:

I wrote an effortpost earlier on about it but didn't go

there is definitely something better going on because I did some scouting about it because apparently some schools have courses for foreigners lol

graduating classes of colleges of marxism can also sing songs about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn-56c2rYXw

but it's never up to the level of the theatre kids who will start pulling out the props and reenacting revolutionary battles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58nhoOziUCw

# ? Aug 6, 2023 09:16

FirstnameLastname: Jul 10, 2022

I made this post but i wanna put it here

Mantis42 posted:

it's not the people that are bad but the crime definitely is. property damage is on the low end but it does disrupt the community, don't pretend it doesn't.

e: the black panthers efforts in chicago is a great example of actually building community. i see too many comfortable anarchists and ultras on twitter who just valorize pointless acts of destruction and violence because it's le epic and they'll never have to be near it or get their hands dirty. it's a stupid tendency

oh i wasn't taking it like you were saying something like that. most cities are hosed as-is in the system we're in
I'm talking about that stuff like intercommunalism, repurposing gangs into legitimate organization that do useful stuff, teaching poor people their enemy isn't the other races it's the people with money, etc.

The crime comes from desperation because there's no economic opportunities and there's no way to really leave and poo poo is more expensive there the poorer you are, bodega milks like $ 9, soup $3, if you don't have a car you can only carry stuff, so you can't go across town or buy bulk etc everybody is set up to lose except the predatory businesses and institutions

meanwhile you can sling birds and retire at 20 with enough money for a lil house out in a flyover state if you're real sharp

All the smart people get eaten up by the drug game if they can't get a scholarship like there's that line by biggie from 1992
because the streets is a short stop
you're either slinging crack rock
or you got a wicked jump shot

it hasn't changed except more fentanyl and meth
but its no coincidence that it's like that in every inner city around the country

All of the entrepreneurial innovative assertive organized talented people go into the drug game before theyre adults and they die before theyre adults usually
property damage and urban neglect poo poo like that is mostly from under enforcement of pretty much everything, especially in the last 5 years or so, the police have completely stopped doing pretty much anything in a lot of major cities except stomping out protests & going to proud boy rallies and also pushing people into protests by murdering a string of black men in a short span of time and then falseflagging them and doing property damage

The lack of potential of poor people is an intentional construct in society, both the lack of hope from within poverty and the lack of both optimism or empathy from outside it

because if middle class people saw broke people as humans and if broke people saw homeless people as humans and then all those humans saw poo poo like medina, WA it's game over for the ruling class

that's why the homeless are not helped, so that they're on the streets nodding out and being gross and pissing people off so people loving hate them, the resources to house them are absolutely nothing for this country, but it doesn't ever happen

because if you housed the homeless then the people who are paying for houses that small would ask why, and once that box is opened it can't be closed easily

this country teaches people to hate everyone who is less fortunate than them by drilling it into your head over and over and over that it's their fault somehow both at an individual and a collective level, that they also hate you and that they're dangerous, especially downward but also upward

i think overcoming that stuff is the only chance that there is for any sort of change away from capitalism or greater class consciousness period even under a capitalist system

quote:

Newton believed that imperialism had developed into a stage of reactionary intercommunalism. Reactionary intercommunalism is typified by the development of a tiny community of elites with a monopoly on technology and state power within a single hegemonic empire (currently the United States)

Newton particularly disagreed with the view that the proletariat would be the sole revolutionary agent, as he continued to believe in the revolutionary potential of the lumpenproletariat.

Newton saw intercommunalism as situated within the tradition of Karl Marx's materialism, but not as a necessarily Marxist ideology. Newton believed that many Marxists "cherish the conclusions which Marx arrived at through his method, but they throw away the method itself � leaving themselves in a totally static posture. That is why most Marxists really are historical materialists: they look to the past to get answers for the future, and that does not work

This 'ruling circle' is different from the Bourgeoisie, which the Panthers treated as a much broader phenomenon. Newton said that "[t]here are very few controllers even in the white middle class. They can barely keep their heads above water, they are paying all the bills, living hand-to-mouth, and they have the extra expense of refusing to live like Black people." The Black bourgeoisie in particular is a "fantasy bourgeoisie" which could be rallied to a revolutionary cause through sufficient education.

The ruling circle's monopoly on technology and education is important to maintaining reactionary intercommunalism, as it prevents the rest of the world's communities from fulfilling their material needs independently of the center, leaving them dependent on the Empire for advancement. The ruling circle uses 'peaceful co-optation' more often than military invasion to reinforce its aims.

Reactionary intercommunalism allows for no independent national sovereignty, as the dominance of the global hegemon means that all nations bend to the 'weight' of its interests.Instead nations have been reduced down to constituent communities, or "a small unit with a comprehensive collection of institutions that exist to serve a small group of people." Each of these communities "want to determine their own destinies," but can only do so by joining into a revolutionary bloc. All of the communities have no superstructure apart from global capitalism, and while they have different economic conditions they are all 'under siege' by the same forces.[

lol where's the lie at Huey was smart a f

the problem is that the social constructs we've made have become institutions that are self sustaining and assign their own definitions to other constructs based on how they relate to that institution only, and these institutions assign societal roles to individuals, groups, entities of all kinds that are only kept going through a feedback loop of institutionally designed constructs that establish other institutions and that's how you get Bitcoin, tech venture capital, war on drugs, gwot, climate change, everything retarded about modern life

things are unnaturally kept in a music chair cycle of controlled collapse, where the goal of the ruling class of the institutional jacobs ladder ourobouros is to make sure they're not on the part that goes down. Which is easier by making sure someone else always is. All modern authority is being able to point some of the literal and metaphorical guns away from yourself, besides that there's no actual control or direction at any level

There's no way to rehabilitate it because it is self-correcting, the institutions will work in lockstep against attempts to unroot any one of them. If one is finally undone, The empowered of it will simply hop on to another, the gap in institutional authority will be left as an artificial freedom and sense of societal progression for as it much time as it takes to lash everything back down

like I think even if capitalism was removed, at this state of social development, with how complex and powerful different institutions have become, you could get rid of capitalism and it would be like when feudalism dissolved, or when monarchies became republics - 95% of the people in control are the same loving people lol nothing changes because everything else that can survive that transition is going to absorb them and try to create the same power structure again because they're going to bring the same institutional understanding of the world every time

this is why we need crazy knuckles fan and croup back

Prove me wrong

# ? Aug 6, 2023 10:26

mark immune: Dec 14, 2019; put the teacher in the cope cage imo

FirstnameLastname posted:

I made this post but i wanna put it here

oh i wasn't taking it like you were saying something like that. most cities are hosed as-is in the system we're in
I'm talking about that stuff like intercommunalism, repurposing gangs into legitimate organization that do useful stuff, teaching poor people their enemy isn't the other races it's the people with money, etc.

The crime comes from desperation because there's no economic opportunities and there's no way to really leave and poo poo is more expensive there the poorer you are, bodega milks like $ 9, soup $3, if you don't have a car you can only carry stuff, so you can't go across town or buy bulk etc everybody is set up to lose except the predatory businesses and institutions

meanwhile you can sling birds and retire at 20 with enough money for a lil house out in a flyover state if you're real sharp

All the smart people get eaten up by the drug game if they can't get a scholarship like there's that line by biggie from 1992
because the streets is a short stop
you're either slinging crack rock
or you got a wicked jump shot

it hasn't changed except more fentanyl and meth
but its no coincidence that it's like that in every inner city around the country

All of the entrepreneurial innovative assertive organized talented people go into the drug game before theyre adults and they die before theyre adults usually
property damage and urban neglect poo poo like that is mostly from under enforcement of pretty much everything, especially in the last 5 years or so, the police have completely stopped doing pretty much anything in a lot of major cities except stomping out protests & going to proud boy rallies and also pushing people into protests by murdering a string of black men in a short span of time and then falseflagging them and doing property damage

The lack of potential of poor people is an intentional construct in society, both the lack of hope from within poverty and the lack of both optimism or empathy from outside it

because if middle class people saw broke people as humans and if broke people saw homeless people as humans and then all those humans saw poo poo like medina, WA it's game over for the ruling class

that's why the homeless are not helped, so that they're on the streets nodding out and being gross and pissing people off so people loving hate them, the resources to house them are absolutely nothing for this country, but it doesn't ever happen

because if you housed the homeless then the people who are paying for houses that small would ask why, and once that box is opened it can't be closed easily

this country teaches people to hate everyone who is less fortunate than them by drilling it into your head over and over and over that it's their fault somehow both at an individual and a collective level, that they also hate you and that they're dangerous, especially downward but also upward

i think overcoming that stuff is the only chance that there is for any sort of change away from capitalism or greater class consciousness period even under a capitalist system

lol where's the lie at Huey was smart a f

the problem is that the social constructs we've made have become institutions that are self sustaining and assign their own definitions to other constructs based on how they relate to that institution only, and these institutions assign societal roles to individuals, groups, entities of all kinds that are only kept going through a feedback loop of institutionally designed constructs that establish other institutions and that's how you get Bitcoin, tech venture capital, war on drugs, gwot, climate change, everything retarded about modern life

things are unnaturally kept in a music chair cycle of controlled collapse, where the goal of the ruling class of the institutional jacobs ladder ourobouros is to make sure they're not on the part that goes down. Which is easier by making sure someone else always is. All modern authority is being able to point some of the literal and metaphorical guns away from yourself, besides that there's no actual control or direction at any level

There's no way to rehabilitate it because it is self-correcting, the institutions will work in lockstep against attempts to unroot any one of them. If one is finally undone, The empowered of it will simply hop on to another, the gap in institutional authority will be left as an artificial freedom and sense of societal progression for as it much time as it takes to lash everything back down

like I think even if capitalism was removed, at this state of social development, with how complex and powerful different institutions have become, you could get rid of capitalism and it would be like when feudalism dissolved, or when monarchies became republics - 95% of the people in control are the same loving people lol nothing changes because everything else that can survive that transition is going to absorb them and try to create the same power structure again because they're going to bring the same institutional understanding of the world every time

this is why we need crazy knuckles fan and croup back

Prove me wrong

FnLn is right

# ? Aug 6, 2023 14:22

dead gay comedy forums: Oct 21, 2011

FirstnameLastname posted:

like I think even if capitalism was removed, at this state of social development, with how complex and powerful different institutions have become, you could get rid of capitalism and it would be like when feudalism dissolved, or when monarchies became republics - 95% of the people in control are the same loving people lol nothing changes

I get what you are going for, but that is flat out impossible, like "can we magically handwave capitalism away" and everything else stays the same, if you know what I mean. The people are there because of capitalism, after all

Every single dramatic shift of socio-economic organization/mode of production involved at least some severe destruction of the previous structure, and that also means people. All social institutions, in the sense you are talking about there, are part of structure; there's nothing magical in how they operate now or in Ancient Greece in those fundamentals. They seem impossible to overcome until suddenly they are, generally because history and circumstances moved to a point where they cannot hold

(But I do get where the sentiment comes from, the American left has been terrorized for decades, after all)

# ? Aug 6, 2023 21:51

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# ? May 30, 2024 01:21

Pentecoastal Elites: Feb 27, 2007

moreover, capital is the medium which these particular institutions are built from. You can't remove capitalism without dismantling the structures that keep it in place: if you want to tear down a house you have to remove the walls and roof at some point. Once those structures are gone, there is no more of that stuff to reconstitute similar social structures. The institutions can't take hold because there is nothing for them to embed themselves in.

Absolutely you had a lot of movement from high status in feudalism to the capital class because in many cases the nobility was able to jump shift or use the extant power structure to force themselves into privileged positions, but that is because both feudalism and capitalism are class-based. The whole communism thing is about dissolving class, not specifically eliminating capitalism or capitalists. Once you get there and it's workers all the way down, what do you build your hegemonic institutions with? Wealth? How could you amass it? Military command? Who would the workers of the world fight against?

Communism wouldn't be the same sort of change that feudalism to capitalism was, it would be a change as fundamental as the one from hunter-gatherers to agricultural society was. Just a complete reformulation of the human experience and subjectivity.

# ? Aug 7, 2023 19:25

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

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