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I think Hien absolutely has a Machiavelian streak to his way of thinking, and a strategic mind that is capable of Ruthless Calculus. That doesn't automatically translate into being a politician, however, and I think its fair to say he struggles with that application. There's a reason I said earlier in the LP that Hien's character is kind of ill-defined. He's a little bit of everything. You can read that as depth and nuance or you can read it as indecisive and sloppy writing. Sometimes both!
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Aug 7, 2023 03:54
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In another tale, Hien would have been an excellent antagonist or rival.
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Aug 7, 2023 04:12
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I think the reason he got off lightly was because the damage was already done and killing him wouldn't really change the situation. Hien should have still found a way to punish him though through either exile or service.
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Aug 7, 2023 04:21
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i find it very strange because it's not like that guy ever needed to show up. he's not an existing character we were aware of or a loose end who had to be addressed. he shows up to be immediately shuffled off to the side and never referenced again, and even reading it as charitably as possible to the writers it's not clear what having him show up and having hien respond that way is supposed to accomplish
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Aug 7, 2023 04:31
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Feldegast42 posted:I think the reason he got off lightly was because the damage was already done and killing him wouldn't really change the situation. Again, I really wanna stress that even in this setting there are punishments that aren't imprisonment or execution and I don't know what it is about this specific topic and plot beat that consistently makes people forget that
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Aug 7, 2023 04:32
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I've always just assume Jifuya is dead in a ditch somewhere. I'm not sure where I got that impression since it's certainly not textual. It's just the feeling I got from Hien's tone talking to him.
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Aug 7, 2023 04:43
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Again, I really wanna stress that even in this setting there are punishments that aren't imprisonment or execution and I don't know what it is about this specific topic and plot beat that consistently makes people forget that mostly the part where no punishment occurs and people fanon up that there must have been some kind of punishment, and those two types of punishment allow an explanation of why we never see that character again that isn't 'the writers just kinda threw this in and then forgot about it'
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Aug 7, 2023 05:51
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Lord_Magmar posted:I also personally have never bought the "Hien is a skilled Realpolotik" thing, the story doesn't really seem to want to engage with the idea he is, it is far too genuine in how it presents his straightforward warrior prince nature. "Nobody said "No no, let's let this [kidnapping] play out, I want to learn more about these guys I'm planning to turn into an army to point at my homeland" "Maybe we should just flood the castle and let God sort them out" "If we have to let the Garleans take one person (and maybe put them to death at some kind of show trial) in exchange for getting a great lot of war prisoners back, I'm thinking we should do it"
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Aug 7, 2023 06:48
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dyslexicfaser posted:Straightforward warrior prince: In order, he likes the Xaela lifestyle and his plan for getting them to fight for him is to participate in their culture rather than some political trickery and then plead his case as their new Kahgan. The kidnapping thing is more of that. Just flooding the castle is the straightforward solution, and he outright says he can't really make a political movement to counter the prisoner exchange plot because it would potentially damage the prisoner exchange, plus the simple thing is trading Yotsuyu for the Domans, he doesn't like her and it would be a great victory for his people, his decision to make the counter-offer is actually the most complicated political movement he makes via politics rather than his strength/charisma as a leader. He also never actually discusses any thoughts to what the Garleans would to to Yotsuyu either, that is stuff the player inserts into the characterisation provided by the player. None of these require a skilled realpolitik capability or particularly manipulative thinking. If anything Hien sidesteps that by being honest and earnest about his intent in each and every case, he's not manipulating or tricking people or playing politics, he can, but he'd clearly rather just fight things to solve problems. Which is why he likes the Xaela warrior culture. Hien is someone who wants simple straightforward narratives, and dislikes screwy twisty politics. That doesn't make him bad at the latter, but he repeatedly makes it clear his preference is to fight, or speak in honest terms, not manipulate deceive or trick. His nature is straightforward warrior prince, and his weakness is that this is not a situation where his nature benefits and in fact is in my opinion meant to be his flaw as a leader, that his leadership style and preference is glorious leader of battlefield charges, not sitting down discussing political minutiae with double talk and back-handed discussion (and he outright says as much to Asahi). The game at no point has suggested he's some skilled manipulative politician, and I think any reading of that into him comes from the player justifying his actions as more than what they're presented. Particularly I disagree with the notion he manipulated Yugiri into a death or glory attack as Jetrauban suggested upthread. I can agree it can come across as Ruthless Calculus in one way, but I don't think it's Hien being manipulative or even close to sneaky, so much as applying his preferred solutions (do the straightforward thing) to unclear situations. It makes me think particularly of Captain Carrot in the Discworld books, who is so straightforward that he tends to cut through political complexity by doing things in a way that isn't at all manipulative but incredibly direct and unflinching. That's not the same thing as idealistic or unwilling to sacrifice (hence the flood the castle decision). Hien would prefer to cut down evil where it stands rather than scheme and counterscheme. Even here, his solution isn't to counter-scheme against Asahi, but instead to walk into the trap confident they can get out of it anyway. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Aug 7, 2023 |
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Aug 7, 2023 06:57
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I ascribe Hien to being Samurai Aragorn. He is the destined prince who'll one day rule Gondor but he's not all that interested in THAT part of his life. He is however, a good man who's looking at a currently horrible nation that once stood for something in word if not deed. He'd be perfectly happy hanging out in the steppe doing things like a Xaela, but that's not to mean he isn't putting his full force behind the whole "Reform Doma" thing. A very odd comparison I have is I played just this year Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous, and Daeran Arandae absolutely hates the crusades, he does not want to fight them, he does not want to be involved, and he'd much rather be living a life of excess and having sex on a boat. But once he's forced into the Crusade he's in it to win it. It's full force do the best you can. That's Hien, he would be perfectly happy not being King, just being the wandering Samurai. But he IS king and he does need to sort this poo poo out, so he is in it to win it.
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Aug 7, 2023 07:42
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Also I was reminded of another example of his straightforward and honest nature is in fact his whole thing with Yugiri. Hien isn't interested in forcing Doma to fight a rebellion they don't want to fight, he in fact specifically tasks Yugiri with finding out if Doma wants to fight or not, and if they don't he said he would offer his head to Garlemald himself to secure his people's future. He seems entirely genuine, although maybe if they didn't want to rebel he would simply live out his life in the Steppes rather than actually sacrifice himself. He's not a political manipulator, he's a straightforward warrior prince who means what he says and does what he says he will do, even if those end up being the wrong choices, and someone who is willing to do anything he can for his people's future, including sacrificing himself. Which is something I don't think a Machiavellian Manipulator and Realpolitik player would ever put on the table. He engages with the Xaela with full honesty and clear intent, he likes their lifestyle because it actually meshes with his own personality a lot more than being the King of a Nation whose word has political weight, but he will not abandon his duty to his people for his own satisfaction. Maybe that can be read as ruthless calculus, but I think it's just that Hien would rather do the straightforward solution than something tricky and complicated, it's just straightforward isn't the same thing as honourable or noble. This is more or less my problem with the English version of his response to Jifuya, that he says "It is not my place to judge the past" is probably the worst thing he's said until now, and the game doesn't actually treat it as the failing it is to be the leader Doma probably needs. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Aug 7, 2023 |
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Aug 7, 2023 07:45
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Someone who is straightforward, honest, and earnest can also see the value in being that way, and, being that person in a situation that usually requires deception and subterfuge, can actively take the calculus of being that person into account. I don't think Hien is a deceptive manipulator, but I think to say he's not playing the game and playing it well (circumstances permitting, as we see here, he is allowed to have some flaws) is a weird downplay of his character. Like I don't think he goaded Yugiri into her revenge gambit. That's not something he'd do, Yugiri and Gosetsu are basically the people who are closest to Hien in his entire life and he doesn't manipulate people like a mastermind with a chessboard. But, that said, a common story beat the world over is that a proud straightforward warrior (especially a warrior-prince) has to learn some amount of guile to not only stand by their principles, but also understand when they're getting played for being a straightforward, honest sort. Hien doesn't manipulate people but to say he isn't constantly at least examining the board and weighing the odds of what he wants to do versus what he should do is just completely untrue with the character, especially with what we see here vis-a-vis how part of him does want to see Yotsuyu punished for her crimes. He doesn't draw his blade on Yotsuyu as a gambit to draw out what Gosetsu really wants, but he is well aware what the 'straightforward, proud warrior' thing to do is not always in the interests of what the 'noble, guilesome warrior-prince' needs to do. Monathin fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Aug 7, 2023 |
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Aug 7, 2023 07:55
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Lord_Magmar posted:He engages with the Xaela with full honesty and clear intent, he likes their lifestyle because it actually meshes with his own personality a lot more than being the King of a Nation whose word has political weight, but he will not abandon his duty to his people for his own satisfaction. Maybe that can be read as ruthless calculus, but I think it's just that Hien would rather do the straightforward solution than something tricky and complicated, it's just straightforward isn't the same thing as honourable or noble. Well he does put a lot of effort into manipulating Magnai (just remember his big GOTCHA smirk when he maneuvered us into being sent to the Dotharl), and probably would have done the same with Sadu if he hadn't been thrown in a dungeon for that adventure because the Buduga all have the hots for him. Its just that Magnai sees that he's being played and doesn't care because he's being played in a way he likes, so he goes along with it. You're not wrong that he prefers being a very straightforward Wandering Warrior type based on how he acts with the Mol and how much he enjoys wandering the plains solving problems with his sword. It's why Yugiri had to remind him he couldn't be in the search party in this chapter. But that politician is part of him too. I mean, he did deal with Asahi openly right up until Asahi made it clear what he wanted. Then the very first thing he did pseudo-deny that he even had her. A lot of this debate goes back to Hien's characterization being scattered and indecisive. One thing I think about a lot is that when Yugiri talked about him back in ARR and HW, she'd occasionally make a comment along the lines that he'd cut her down for failing to act with honor or uphold the integrity of Doma. From the moment we met him it couldn't be more clear that they left that foreshadowing in the bin. I don't think he's BAD or anything. His dialogue writing and voice acting present a really likable character that does an admirable job trying to hold together all the pieces they tossed into him, but it does lead to situations like this where depending on what part of his story you want to make the centerpiece of your vision of who he is, the result is widely varied. quote:He is however, a good man who's looking at a currently horrible nation that once stood for something in word if not deed. One thing I think its very important to keep in mind about Hien is that he doesn't really know what Doma was like. He knows what Gosetsu TAUGHT him Doma was like, but he only ever lived under the occupation. He specifically called his vision of Doma an Impossible Dream (I honestly wonder if they weren't deliberately alluding to The Man From La Mancha in some of his dialogue, which is why I used that chapter name for Doma Castle). I think that has more influence on the mistakes/less than perfection decisions he made in 4.2 than people might credit at first blush. He told Yutsuyu when he cut her down that he would take her sad story into account when remaking the country, but it's not big surprise to me he would struggle with that and even fumble a few footballs in practice because he only knows about the flaws he wants to fix in theoretical terms.
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Aug 7, 2023 08:07
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Much like the tribes of the Steppe are a relief after dealing with the bickering factions and tribes of Eorzea, I think Hien is deliberately supposed to be a flawed leader who nonetheless is way more pragmatic than what we get from our usual starting zone governments. We've already seen Alphinaud lead with idealism and hope that people would be accepting of what's best for everybody, and he got his poo poo kicked in because he didn't realize that some people have wants that they're willing to put over the common good, and so he was ultimately undone by someone who got into his organization mad that he was willing to let Ala Mhigo rot if it meant a better lot for the majority of people. We once again in Ishgard saw someone who was against peace for the majority just because their personal losses will not be repaid. Hien knows that the decision he's making is going to piss some people off, he doesn't expect someone whose own family was killed by Yotsuyu to be satisfied with her being handed back just because their neighbor's family returned from the Garlean work camp. But the only other option is to do nothing and maintain status quo, which will get everyone's family killed in the long run.
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Aug 7, 2023 08:08
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Sanguinia posted:Well he does put a lot of effort into manipulating Magnai (just remember his big GOTCHA smirk when he maneuvered us into being sent to the Dotharl), and probably would have done the same with Sadu if he hadn't been thrown in a dungeon for that adventure because the Buduga all have the hots for him. Its just that Magnai sees that he's being played and doesn't care because he's being played in a way he likes, so he goes along with it. I can see this and I think to my mind he has to "turn on" the politician bits, and he isn't particularly good at them when he does. As you say he does manipulate Magnai, but it works because Magnai doesn't care (and I think he and Hien actually are of very similar minds around manipulation like that). Hien really wishes he didn't have to deal with complicated plans and twisty politics, so his default action is what is most straightforward, but that isn't the only thing he's capable of I agree. I just don't think he's constantly scheming or any sort of Machiavellian mindset running, he has to actively decide to scheme when his straightforward plans run into problems or better solutions are offered. He's being honest with Asahi when he says he wants to dispense of political trickery, and then does so until Asahi actually does something that proves Asahi is probably not being as straightforward as he claimed he would. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Aug 7, 2023 |
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Aug 7, 2023 08:13
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Valentin posted:i find it very strange because it's not like that guy ever needed to show up. he's not an existing character we were aware of or a loose end who had to be addressed. he shows up to be immediately shuffled off to the side and never referenced again, and even reading it as charitably as possible to the writers it's not clear what having him show up and having hien respond that way is supposed to accomplish There are many aspects of the Yotsuyu plotline that feel deeply underbaked - interested in her more as a symbol that's playing with the themes of gender and revolutionary rhetoric/mythology than as a plausible person who would believably rise to power in the world - and a lot of the handling of this feels like an equally clunky attempt to reverse course a bit. Lord_Magmar posted:Also I was reminded of another example of his straightforward and honest nature is in fact his whole thing with Yugiri. Hien isn't interested in forcing Doma to fight a rebellion they don't want to fight, he in fact specifically tasks Yugiri with finding out if Doma wants to fight or not, and if they don't he said he would offer his head to Garlemald himself to secure his people's future. He seems entirely genuine, although maybe if they didn't want to rebel he would simply live out his life in the Steppes rather than actually sacrifice himself. See, this is exactly why I think he's a manipulator, because I find it very hard to believe he wouldn't realize his devoted shinobi who's sworn to die for him, as well as his long-time friend, would not do literally anything to keep him from sacrificing himself. He would have to be spectacularly bad at reading people to not guess how Yugiri would respond. Which I suppose is possible! Mind you, I don't think Hien is insincere, either. I think he's a genuinely honorable and honest man who wants to live with integrity and courage. I just also think he's definitely got a calculating side to him, even if he doesn't prefer to do things that way. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Aug 7, 2023 |
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Aug 7, 2023 08:26
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EDIT: oops
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Aug 7, 2023 08:30
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On a non-story related note. Patch 4.2 brought one of the most impactful additions to the game. Something everyone loves and wants more of. That's right. This is the patch that added the glamour dresser and glamour plates. Also the Chocobo Saddlebag.
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Aug 7, 2023 08:40
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As a dedicated omnicrafter whose inventory is a complete mess at any given time, if you forced me to part with my Chocobo Saddlebag I would have to fight you at knife-point. Glamour might be the endgame but inventory is the hill to die on.
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Aug 7, 2023 08:51
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Jetrauben posted:See, this is exactly why I think he's a manipulator, because I find it very hard to believe he wouldn't realize his devoted shinobi who's sworn to die for him, as well as his long-time friend, would not do literally anything to keep him from sacrificing himself. He would have to be spectacularly bad at reading people to not guess how Yugiri would respond. Which I suppose is possible! Oh I'm pretty sure he knows Gosetsu and Yugiri would die for him, I just think he gave that ultimatum to give them a way out of it because he does not want anyone to die for him. If lives must be spent, it should be willingly and of their own choice. Which is why the ultimatum has nothing to do with Yugiri's faith and service to him, but instead the feelings of the commonfolk. He treats his service to his people as more important than his personal desires, since it is clear he personally wants to free Doma (and live himself). You're taking it as him presenting a situation that will force Yugiri to do anything to save him, I think he's instead providing every possibility for her to decide if him ruling Doma is worth dying for. They're both willing to die for one another and neither wants the other to sacrifice their life for them. Edit: Hien knows he could order Yugiri and Gosetsu and potentially most of Doma to march to their deaths in a rebellion against Garlemald. He doesn't want to do that, he wants them to choose to rebel of their own volition, and if not he is willing to die for them so they don't die for him.
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Aug 7, 2023 09:01
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My read on the Jifuya bit is still the same as it ever was: Yotsuyu's past is less to invoke WWII comfort women and hews closer to Japan's own sanctioned courtesans of, say, the Tokugawa era, where families selling daughters was an open and known practice. Especially as it seems she was one for high-status clientele, which is, say, how she came to meet Zenos. Nobody on the Doman side (outside of Yotsuyu, naturally) really laments the practice wholesale, or Jifuya's role in it, they condemn that it specifically led to her brief but tyrannical reign as viceroy, and if they punished him, it would be because of the misery they endured because of that. The man's own attack of conscience isn't even about his prior employment, per se, but just that he shouldn't have accepted that one particular woman. It doesn't really seem like something forced upon them by Kaien's willing submission to Garlemald - the survivors of the failed rebellion have a lot of complaints but that's not among them. So really the situation appears to be a man involved in a "traditional" practice of Doma contributing rather directly to Yotsuyu's pointed hatred of Doman society. It's a very sore point for modern sensibilities (for excellent reason, mind), and they kind of tiptoe around it here in the story as it is. It might have helped if the presentation had some other thoughts on it, maybe some other NPCs caught up in the same thing during Doma's pre-rebellion days (or even pre-vassalage days) and/or nearby nations having their own impressions of Doma's less than savory practices. But I never got the impression that Yotsuyu was lying or misplacing the blame when she vented her vitriol for Doma on this matter. OhFunny posted:On a non-story related note.
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Aug 7, 2023 09:10
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Lord_Magmar posted:Oh I'm pretty sure he knows Gosetsu and Yugiri would die for him, I just think he gave that ultimatum to give them a way out of it because he does not want anyone to die for him. If lives must be spent, it should be willingly and of their own choice. Which is why the ultimatum has nothing to do with Yugiri's faith and service to him, but instead the feelings of the commonfolk. He treats his service to his people as more important than his personal desires, since it is clear he personally wants to free Doma (and live himself). Ultimately I guess this is a question of how cynically you want to read the story, I suppose. I think he knows he can't order a beaten and broken people to march to their deaths, he can only engineer a situation where they do so of their own accord.
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Aug 7, 2023 09:13
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Hogama posted:Nobody on the Doman side (outside of Yotsuyu, naturally) really laments the practice wholesale, or Jifuya's role in it, they condemn that it specifically led to her brief but tyrannical reign as viceroy, and if they punished him, it would be because of the misery they endured because of that. The man's own attack of conscience isn't even about his prior employment, per se, but just that he shouldn't have accepted that one particular woman. It doesn't really seem like something forced upon them by Kaien's willing submission to Garlemald - the survivors of the failed rebellion have a lot of complaints but that's not among them. So really the situation appears to be a man involved in a "traditional" practice of Doma contributing rather directly to Yotsuyu's pointed hatred of Doman society. Yeah, that was my impression as well. It's less about the practice and more about "that one time the practice accidentally led to Doman oppression", which is probably why he gets off with what appears to be a slap on the wrist. Again, it's not really a feel good outcome to have the victim hated by everyone while a guy complicit in her situation just waltzes out of the story to possibly have a more comfortable post, be remembered fondly as a hero of the resistance, and basically escape any judgment (even personal) on his involvement. But that's how it was written, unfortunately. Hogama posted:It's also when Masked Rose joined the Gold Saucer. His Fashion Report demands were a lot more elaborate in those days... He was also a lot more critical, as opposed to now where you can wear just about anything and come fairly close to 80 points. If you haven't, though, it is worth trying to do the Fashion Report naked. 
Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Aug 7, 2023 |
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Aug 7, 2023 09:16
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Jetrauben posted:Ultimately I guess this is a question of how cynically you want to read the story, I suppose. I think he knows he can't order a beaten and broken people to march to their deaths, he can only engineer a situation where they do so of their own accord. Which would be a pretty lovely and gross thing for him to do when the game generally wants you to like the guy and presents him as honest, earnest and heroic. He offered to surrender himself to Garlemald for his people and the idea that this was part of a ploy to force them into rebellion is actually quite awful to me. It would make him almost as bad as Thordan was, in terms of using his people as tools and weapons for his own comfort and success. Which the game has clearly shown as proving you are unfit to rule, and so far has not suggested Hien is unfit to rule Doma. You have described the actions of what FFXIV usually presents as a villain, if a lesser of two evils one in context. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Aug 7, 2023 |
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Aug 7, 2023 09:33
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Yeah, the writing wants you to believe that Hien is a straightforward and mostly honest man who doesn't particularly like politicking even if he's willing to deal with it as part of his job. It's not always very good at it, but that's the pretty clear writer intent and is part of their typical "this leader is a good'un" signposting.
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Aug 7, 2023 09:38
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Lord_Magmar posted:Which would be a pretty lovely and gross thing for him to do when the game generally wants you to like the guy and presents him as honest, earnest and heroic. I mean, that's kind of why I think he's interesting - but I'd disagree here, because he's just kind of doing the same thing that the protagonists are doing in Ala Mhigo - they know the occupation will only produce misery and eventual ruin for all, but also that many of the ordinary folks are too afraid to stick their heads up and actually take up arms against their oppressors. I don't think Hien is motivated by his own comfort, I think he's motivated by a genuine desire for freedom and a better world. I just think he's also about as ruthless as many real-world revolutionaries have been? But your read is fair as well.
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Aug 7, 2023 09:43
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Jetrauben posted:I mean, that's kind of why I think he's interesting - but I'd disagree here, because he's just kind of doing the same thing that the protagonists are doing in Ala Mhigo - they know the occupation will only produce misery and eventual ruin for all, but also that many of the ordinary folks are too afraid to stick their heads up and actually take up arms against their oppressors. We don't force people in Ala Mihgo to rebel or even manipulate them into doing so either though. The guy who did that was Ilberd and he was treated as a villain for it. We just have to pick up the pieces and do the best we can with the massive mess he left. We spend the entire time supporting and reinforcing the existing rebellion and offering refuge to the victims of Garlemald in Ala Mihgo, but Ala Mihgo was already in a state of open rebellion. Doma was not, and Hien clearly isn't going to force a rebellion on people who do not want one. To be clear, Hien's sacrifice would not have saved Doma. But that is because Zenos wants a rebellion or total destruction, and is using Yotsuyu to do so, which Hien doesn't have knowledge of. Your read of Hien definitely feels like the sort of thing FFXIV writes villains doing, not heroes taking drastic actions to get necessary results. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 09:56 on Aug 7, 2023 |
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Aug 7, 2023 09:50
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Also, FFXIV loves having characters lament if they had to do something unsavory to achieve a noble goal. We had like how many scenes of Urianger waxing philosophical about playing the double agent? If the intention was that Hien was doing something uncouth they'd have scenes where Hien grasps with the weight of the people he loves vs the goal he's aiming for.Hogama posted:But I never got the impression that Yotsuyu was lying or misplacing the blame when she vented her vitriol for Doma on this matter. I think Yotsuyu and Fordola are deliberate counterparts in the story and that things are lost if the circumstances of the culture didn't create the monster. That's a key theme running through Stormblood, that freedom's good, but that doesn't mean "The good old days". Sometimes those old days loving sucked.
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Aug 7, 2023 11:28
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Exactly, and when we are faced with people in Ala Mhigo who ARE striaght up 'no, screw this rebellion. We don't want any part of it' the game tells us to sympathize and understand them. And the way we get them on side is not through some manipulative trick, but to show our support for them, and they believe in our dedication and competence. That's not really manipulation either. We're pretty honest about what we're trying to do. Regarding mr. pimp, I think that it's pretty consistent with FFXIV's treatment of 'people who did bad but now regret it'. Even in Dark Knight quests, I can't recall anyone who committed an evil, but has remorse over it, where the game is straight out 'gently caress 'em, bring the hurt'. It feels like the game says 'The guy feels bad and ashamed about it, is not going to hurt someone again, as a result of his evil has spent years in a very dangerous and unpleasant job as a resistance member. He's not exactly a super guy, but he doesn't need to get locked up or killed any more' Not saying it's necessarily right there. I can definitely understand feeling that the scales aren't exactly balanced. But perhaps that is a different way of looking at justice there? More the 'evil is a pollution to be cleansed' rather than 'evil is a debt to be repaid'? And that in working as a resistance member, mr pimp has gone through his own cleansing?
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Aug 7, 2023 11:30
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Jifuya's lines didn't read to me as genuine remorse for his actions as much as fear for his life, and his resistance work would not have changed much for women in similar situations as Yotsuyu without doing work there is no evidence of being done—not even a throwaway line—so I wouldn't call the resistance work redeeming because we see nothing to suggest that he wouldn't just go back to it once he felt safe. The writing seems generally real reluctant to think about the scale of abuse that the system Yotsuyu was in involves or how much effort it would take to disassemble it, even when it acknowledges that it happened because of rotten systems. It would have been better had he just not been introduced at all, because all he does is weaken the writing around him, but this is the writing we have to work with and I think it shoots itself in the foot here.
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Aug 7, 2023 12:03
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As far as Hien’s characterization, I think there’s a little difference between “forthright and honorable” and “honest to a fault”. See, Hien is also clever. It comes up in his easy chatter with friends and the WoL, where he tends to needle with a quick wit and takes the counterpunches in stride. But that cleverness is also a function in many of his big plot decisions. And cleverness is a big part of the samurai protagonist. The big climactic fight against impossible odds is defeated through skill of arms, a strong will, and a clever plan. I wonder if the devs decided to gamble on that big complex archetype with Hien. They had a third of an expansion plot to introduce and wrap up Hien’s deal, and they chose to drape him in Samurai Plot signifiers rather than try to cram in all the characterization moments needed to communicate all those facets. Personally, I think it ended up underwritten. But hey, the devs have a continuing MMO to keep writing in! So we’ll see how that develops.
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Aug 7, 2023 12:17
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Onmi posted:Also, FFXIV loves having characters lament if they had to do something unsavory to achieve a noble goal. We had like how many scenes of Urianger waxing philosophical about playing the double agent? If the intention was that Hien was doing something uncouth they'd have scenes where Hien grasps with the weight of the people he loves vs the goal he's aiming for. That doesn't have much to do with Fordola or Yotsuyu, both of whom suffered their abuse in nations under Imperial rule. Would Yotsuyu have even been in the situation she was in if her mother hadn't made that deal with that Imperial officer? Probably not. This is not to say that you are wrong about Stormblood in general, just that we can't really draw conclusions about old Doma and old Ala Mhigo from the treatment of Yotsuyu and Fordola. My opinion on Hien is that he just agreed to walk into what he must almost certainly believes to be a trap on the off chance that that it will lead to some of his people being freed from bondage. Those are not the actions of a ruthless mastermind! As I said before, the depiction of Yotsuyu here is a very controversial choice. I like what they're trying to get at, but I do have to wonder if making Yotsuyu childlike was the very best way to go about it. Ultimately it doesn't detract a lot for me, but I can totally see why people have a problem with it.
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Aug 7, 2023 12:29
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I mean, Yotsuyu's husband abused her and was still viewed as an upstanding man by his peers, and it's not like we see any Doman dialogue talking about how disgusting it is that the Garleans were now allowing people to sell their daughters to resolve their debt. That suggests an older rot, even if Yotsuyu in specific likely only ended up in her situation because of the occupation.
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Aug 7, 2023 12:40
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People can be really obsessed with punishment and this is frequently going to put them at odds with FFXIV's writing, because this game is so indifferent to the concept of punishment that it frequently doesn't even bother to mention it.
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Aug 7, 2023 14:30
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Like Clockwork posted:I mean, Yotsuyu's husband abused her and was still viewed as an upstanding man by his peers, and it's not like we see any Doman dialogue talking about how disgusting it is that the Garleans were now allowing people to sell their daughters to resolve their debt. That suggests an older rot, even if Yotsuyu in specific likely only ended up in her situation because of the occupation. Hien's father was ruling Doma up until he rebelled against Garlemald, even if it was as viceroy under the Emperor. Also from one of the tales from the storm short stories on the website Yotsuyu was meant to spy on Garleans who used her services for the rebellion and instead sold them out when she met Zenos
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Aug 7, 2023 14:45
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Never meet your
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Aug 7, 2023 14:48
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Lord_Magmar posted:Hien's father was ruling Doma up until he rebelled against Garlemald, even if it was as viceroy under the Emperor. Also from one of the tales from the storm short stories on the website Yotsuyu was meant to spy on Garleans who used her services for the rebellion and instead sold them out when she met Zenos Doma was still an occupied territory even if it had more freedom than most. I also say what I say in full knowledge of the short stories. And on that note, she was hired as counterintelligence before meeting Zenos, meeting Zenos got her a bigger promotion. To quote, quote:Originally, Yotsuyu's masters had assigned her a different mission─Lord Kaien, Doma's former ruler, was reported to have assembled an army, and it seemed an uprising was imminent.
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Aug 7, 2023 15:08
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OhFunny posted:On a non-story related note. This felt wrong, so I went back and checked. It couldn't have been that long ago, could it? But it's true, glam plates and the glam toilet (it was originally the Glamour Commode before they changed the name to Dresser) really are that old. This was also the patch where they killed crafting class-specific glamour prisms and unified them into a single item, which was a very well received change. The saddlebag came about because players were demanding more inventory space, and a dev found that there was a little bit of unused room in the companion chocobo object that could be repurposed. Since apparently that was less likely to break the foundations of the game than extending the actual player inventory. Thundarr fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Aug 7, 2023 |
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Aug 7, 2023 15:31
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Thundarr posted:The saddlebag came about because players were demanding more inventory space, and a dev found that there was a little bit of unused room in the companion chocobo object that could be repurposed. Since apparently that was less likely to break the foundations of the game than extending the actual player inventory. To be fair to XIV here, I have never known a MMO where the inventory code isnt't a nightmare hellscape that could completely break the game if someone so much as looks at it the wrong way.
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Aug 7, 2023 19:44
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Honestly making changes to long-running live service games in general (but especially mmos) has always sounded like a nightmare because you end up having to delicately pick apart weird layers of dependencies even with the best code practices (note: best code practices functionally do not exist in the wild) just because of the nature of the beast. But especially with FFXIV, because even just recently there was a very easily reproducible crash (i think? it was at least some kind of serious problem) from having an extremely full inventory and a maxed/near-maxed glamour dresser.
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Aug 7, 2023 21:42
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