BSS Television Thread: Danny the Thread

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > BSS: Bisexual Super Son > BSS Television Thread: Danny the Thread

Assepoester: Jul 18, 2004; Can't post for 10 years!; Melman v2

glitchwraith posted:

I think stupid or crazy isn't the right words for what your getting at, as I don't think she's been depicted as either in modern comics and adaptations. Cartoonish, amoral, and traumatized by a literally toxic relationship, sure, but not stupid or crazy.

I don't think how good of a psychiatrist she is or was comes up much because she's no longer actively practicing in that field. It's not a skill set that necessarily comes up often when executing heists, spreading anarchy, or doing eco terrorism with the girlfriend. Which is why I love it when it does become relevant in the cartoon or the Injustice comics that they go with "No, she actually knew her poo poo. She just made a terrible, terrible mistake with the Joker."

catlord posted:

As late as Arkham Asylum (the game, so '09) you have Batman commenting that Harley was never very bright, which tracks with how she was depicted in TAS and its spin-offs. I think making her more competent at her job is a very modern take as she became more popular (one I do agree with, her having the psych experience makes her far more interesting).

Lobok posted:

Her portrayal in the Gotham Knights game was good in that way. Still Joker-ish but Batman respected her professional experience, and it formed the foundation of her main scheme in the game.

mycot posted:

Her portrayal in the Arkham games got very mean, it was commented on even at the time. I think making her generally smarter helps avoid the weird "haha dumb bitch" jeering that the character can indulge.

Arist posted:

The Arkham games seem to actively hate Harley

Also, women in general

Yeah the Arkham games feel like "what if early BTAS but really edgy" so you have stuff like enemies constantly calling catwoman a bitch and threatening to rape her. In terms of Harley she goes from being completely useless in the first game and not even worth of a fight to at least letting you play as her and beat up a bunch of cops in the DLC for the final game.

Original BTAS Harley was depicted as a ditzy blonde and a lesser threat, often treated dismissively by Batman, and in Dini's Mad Love origin comic he explicitly depicts her as a bad psychology student who only got good grades because she slept with her professor.

However even in BTAS and Mad Love the seeds were sown of depicting her as actually a competent and intelligent villain who was held back by the Joker, and subsequent interpretations of her character have taken that farther, including incorporating her expertise as an asset most villains and heroes themselves lack.

Assepoester fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Aug 8, 2023

# ? Aug 8, 2023 21:58

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 07:18

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

Harley's portrayal was pretty drat good in Gotham Knights. She's smart, competent, and devious as hell.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 22:09

Air Skwirl: May 13, 2007; Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

Harley's portrayal was pretty drat good in Gotham Knights. She's smart, competent, and devious as hell.

She was definitely a step up from the Arkham games.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 22:11

Opopanax: Aug 8, 2007; I HEX YE!!!

Pretty sure I remember the Arkham games hinting or even outright saying that Harley slept her way to a PhD

# ? Aug 8, 2023 22:41

CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

Assepoester posted:

Original BTAS Harley was depicted as a ditzy blonde and a lesser threat, often treated dismissively by Batman, and in Dini's Mad Love origin comic he explicitly depicts her as a bad psychology student who only got good grades because she slept with her professor.

Yeah, he did, those were the panels I was going to image search and post here before you said it first.

But that was bad and stupid, and I like her way more now that the characterization seems to be stabilizing around "I didn't stop being a PhD just because I went crazy".

# ? Aug 8, 2023 23:14

Sanschel: Aug 9, 2002

I think a lot of her portrayals as dumb owe to her voice, kind of a Jersey Shore affect where people assume she�s stupid because of her accent and that included her writers.

I loved how the Harley show treats that voice, where she loses it as she gains agency and becomes more of her own person away from the control of Joker or her family, but when she�s around those people again she�ll slip back into it the same as happens to people in real life.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 23:20

Lobok: Jul 13, 2006; Say Watt?

Sanschel posted:

I think a lot of her portrayals as dumb owe to her voice, kind of a Jersey Shore affect where people assume she’s stupid because of her accent and that included her writers.

I loved how the Harley show treats that voice, where she loses it as she gains agency and becomes more of her own person away from the control of Joker or her family, but when she’s around those people again she’ll slip back into it the same as happens to people in real life.

Hm, not sure how I feel about that. On one hand I like that she can be actually smart and move away from what 30 Rock called the Sexy Baby voice but that's mostly about pitch. I like her original BTAS voice because part of it is that old-timey accent you don't get anymore, from the 40s-50s era that BTAS draws so heavily from.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 23:37

OnimaruXLR: Sep 15, 2007; Lurklurklurklurklurk

I think the problem with making Harley too put-together is that, in the context of a story where our POV character is Batman most of the time, it's hard to buy someone who has their poo poo together falling for the Joker

Especially the modern Joker, the quadruple digit bodycount guy who mangles himself and others for shits and giggles. Brian Bolland Joker maybe, Greg Capullo Joker not so much. I suppose you could make his escalation from "theatrical crime guy" to "playing card-themed sadomasochistic terrorist" part of her realizing she should ditch him, but as of the most recent DC reboot, I don't think that's the case

# ? Aug 8, 2023 23:49

usenet celeb 1992: Jun 1, 2000; he thought quoting borges would make him popular

Considering how many of Batman's other villains are allowed to be competent with some accomplishments (even if narrow -- fear gas!), and considering how many of their origin stories are about how their obsessions consumed them, it really was just sexism and lazy/bad writing to treat Harley like that. A writer with any ambition would be champing at the bit to explore the idea of a fallen Gotham criminal psychologist in any depth, given all the criminal psychologies to work with. Unfortunately, too many writers lack the ambition to write with more than one hand.

I kind of liked Morrison's exploration (in The Return of Bruce Wayne) of Gotham being a cursed place. The worst were full of passionate intensity but got corrupted, and the best lack all conviction (or competence [most of Gotham PD and Arkham staff in particular]).

# ? Aug 8, 2023 23:51

Air Skwirl: May 13, 2007; Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

OnimaruXLR posted:

I think the problem with making Harley too put-together is that, in the context of a story where our POV character is Batman most of the time, it's hard to buy someone who has their poo poo together falling for the Joker

Especially the modern Joker, the quadruple digit bodycount guy who mangles himself and others for shits and giggles. Brian Bolland Joker maybe, Greg Capullo Joker not so much. I suppose you could make his escalation from "theatrical crime guy" to "playing card-themed sadomasochistic terrorist" part of her realizing she should ditch him, but as of the most recent DC reboot, I don't think that's the case

I think Joker becoming the quadruple digit bodycount guy is why they also show Harley Quinn moving away from him.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 23:52

CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

usenet celeb 1992 posted:

Considering how many of Batman's other villains are allowed to be competent with some accomplishments (even if narrow -- fear gas!), and considering how many of their origin stories are about how their obsessions consumed them, it really was just sexism and lazy/bad writing to treat Harley like that.

I think it really shouldn't be overlooked that she was originally conceived as not only a bad guy, but a henchman. Dini didn't know he was creating one of DC's most enduring characters of the last three decades, he thought he'd made a disposable moll for the Joker with a fun costume. Even if the baddies sometimes get to be smart, the underlings almost never do, and that's where Harley started.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 23:56

site: Apr 6, 2007; Trans pride, Worldwide
Bitch

~~dini was also more concerned about using the character to draw porn so, like, not really thinking too much about the phd~~

e: sorry that was timm wasn't it

# ? Aug 9, 2023 00:00

usenet celeb 1992: Jun 1, 2000; he thought quoting borges would make him popular

I cut Dini a lot of slack given the character was created for what was ultimately a kids' cartoon, where the lines are going to be drawn broadly regardless. The writers since then, less so.

# ? Aug 9, 2023 00:03

Shindragon: Jun 6, 2011; by Athanatos

site posted:

~~dini was also more concerned about using the character to draw porn so, like, not really thinking too much about the phd~~

e: sorry that was timm wasn't it

yeh bruce timm is the horny one. Just look at last killing joke and terrible harley quinn animated movie

# ? Aug 9, 2023 00:13

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

Harley and Penguin are my two favorite Bat-villains. Penguin because he's not really a lunatic, just a smart and nasty crime boss. Joker and Bane are my least favorite.

# ? Aug 9, 2023 01:23

Assepoester: Jul 18, 2004; Can't post for 10 years!; Melman v2

CapnAndy posted:

I think it really shouldn't be overlooked that she was originally conceived as not only a bad guy, but a henchman. Dini didn't know he was creating one of DC's most enduring characters of the last three decades, he thought he'd made a disposable moll for the Joker with a fun costume. Even if the baddies sometimes get to be smart, the underlings almost never do, and that's where Harley started.

Yeah and in addition to that Harley being based on Arlene Sorkin's daytime tv clown character who was basically a silly, ditzy clown informs her unseriousness and unthreateningness in early BTAS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5L8A0QXtcw

But by the time Dini wrote Mad Love they had already made several episodes around her and knew she was a popular villain in her own right instead of a one-off henchwoman, so it was absolutely an intentional regression.

Shindragon posted:

yeh bruce timm is the horny one. Just look at last killing joke and terrible harley quinn animated movie

Timm has been putting nude pinup artwork of "original character do not steal" versions of BTAS (and other comic book) heroines on his website and selling print books of it for 20 years, so he has always made his horniness obvious.

Dini was the one who married a comic book cosplayer (cool, go for it) and kept making Bruce and Barbara a thing (very gross).

# ? Aug 9, 2023 01:24

Shindragon: Jun 6, 2011; by Athanatos

oh what the fuuuuuck. Is that a BTAS comic book?

# ? Aug 9, 2023 01:35

bunnyofdoom: Mar 29, 2008; THE HATE CRIME DEFENDER HAS LOGGED ON

Sadly yes.

# ? Aug 9, 2023 01:36

Mr Hootington: Jul 24, 2008; I'M HAVING A HOOT EATING CORNETTE THE LONG WAY

Lmao

Being cucked by your adoptive father

# ? Aug 9, 2023 01:45

Assepoester: Jul 18, 2004; Can't post for 10 years!; Melman v2

Shindragon posted:

oh what the fuuuuuck. Is that a BTAS comic book?

There have been several DCAU comic book series, the BTAS one was The Batman Adventures, and later Batman & Robin Adventures.

The infamous panel is from one of the latter Batman Beyond comics.

Assepoester fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Aug 9, 2023

# ? Aug 9, 2023 02:14

CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

Gonna just go ahead and ignore that page that just got posted because it doesn't loving exist, what panels, ha ha.

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

Harley and Penguin are my two favorite Bat-villains. Penguin because he's not really a lunatic, just a smart and nasty crime boss. Joker and Bane are my least favorite.

Original recipe Bane is so much more interesting than what he's turned into. The idea that he's this big hulking bruiser and he just... doesn't use it, because he doesn't have to, because what you really need to be afraid of is his tactical acumen and by the time he comes out to actually throw punches, he beat you ten steps ago and this is just the victory lap? That dude is scary. Runner-up crown to Comedy Relief Bane from Harley Quinn, I guess. If he's gonna be ruined by years of misuse and Tom Hardy's weird voice, might as well lean into it.

# ? Aug 9, 2023 02:23

Assepoester: Jul 18, 2004; Can't post for 10 years!; Melman v2

Yeah original Bane was the brains and the brawn, a physical and intellectual match for Batman, someone just as driven and just as psychotic as Bruce, and with the super steroid venom tipping the scales in his favor. He has schemed and plotted and outsmarted not just Batman but several of the smartest villains as well. Over the years he's more often been reduced to the usual hulking dumb brute, or at least not a smart as Batman. Of course sometimes an excuse is given that his venom addiction has dulled his edge and ruined his mind over time. Don't do drugs kids!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLFAXvFYhsE

To be fair to Tom Hardy Bane, they kept the brilliant planner and schemer aspect, fitting since they made him the head of the league of shadows, but without spending any time with him, seeing him consider his actions and plan things out like the comics, it just kinda felt like he was pulling things out of his rear end.

Assepoester fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Aug 9, 2023

# ? Aug 9, 2023 02:42

twistedmentat: Nov 21, 2003; Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

I was thinking about this at work reading the posts about Harley, and I think a good way to write her is like how you write Deadpool or Gwenpool, in that they are aware they're in a comic book so they can do bonkers poo poo. Though because DC is the serious comics, that Harley is aware of that subconsciously she's in a comic book, so the voice in her head is telling her "why can't I do this crazy thing?".

Though she's certainly someone who is written to be attracted to violence and such, but I think the show has her channeling that in a better way.

# ? Aug 9, 2023 04:18

site: Apr 6, 2007; Trans pride, Worldwide
Bitch

# ? Aug 9, 2023 05:38

CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

I don't think being a 4th wall breaker suits Harley at all, personally. A bit of genre savviness is as far as I'd go; for instance, I'm convinced she showed up in The Suicide Squad even after becoming a good guy in her own movie because Harley just goes and commits crimes with a 10 year or less prison sentence whenever she wants to hang out with her Squad friends, because she knows it's not like she's gonna get killed or anything. To her it's just a fun vacation.

# ? Aug 9, 2023 23:28

StumblyWumbly: Sep 12, 2007; Batmanticore!

I liked the Harley from Injustice, and her power was essentially being always underestimated.

# ? Aug 10, 2023 03:17

twistedmentat: Nov 21, 2003; Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

CapnAndy posted:

I don't think being a 4th wall breaker suits Harley at all, personally. A bit of genre savviness is as far as I'd go; for instance, I'm convinced she showed up in The Suicide Squad even after becoming a good guy in her own movie because Harley just goes and commits crimes with a 10 year or less prison sentence whenever she wants to hang out with her Squad friends, because she knows it's not like she's gonna get killed or anything. To her it's just a fun vacation.

I didn't mean that she literally is going "I am in a comic so I can totally beat Mongol in a one on one because I'm the main character" as text of the comic, but more you write her as if she is on a certain level is aware of where she is. Its purely a writing tool, not an actual thing within the comic, at least that's how i would do it.

The Harley from The Suicide Squad is also a really good example of the Modern Harley. She's crazy and violent, but not cruel. She sees the dictator for who he was, and offs him the first chance she gets.

# ? Aug 10, 2023 06:00

site: Apr 6, 2007; Trans pride, Worldwide
Bitch

# ? Aug 10, 2023 06:12

Mr Hootington: Jul 24, 2008; I'M HAVING A HOOT EATING CORNETTE THE LONG WAY

DC's deadpool

# ? Aug 10, 2023 11:41

OnimaruXLR: Sep 15, 2007; Lurklurklurklurklurk

Assepoester posted:

The infamous panel is from one of the latter Batman Beyond comics.

I know there are allegedly some decent newer ones, but I still think that overall Batman Beyond comics are terrible enough that they could be erased from history and no one would be any worse for it

I also think it's unfair to pin Barbara x Bruce on Dini; it's probably a product of Timm's imagination, on the grounds that he was a producer on the animated Killing Joke, and that featured this particular cracked ship prominently. Meanwhile, I don't think the Bruce x Barb relationship has been picked up on at all in any of the recent Batman: The Adventures Continues comics that have been written by Dini and Burnette, which have introduced stuff like animated universe Jason Todd and Court of Owls

# ? Aug 10, 2023 14:31

Azubah: Jun 5, 2007

No lie, I drat near walked out of Killing Joke when that happened.

# ? Aug 10, 2023 14:44

Macdeo Lurjtux: Jul 5, 2011; BRRREADSTOOORRM!

StumblyWumbly posted:

I liked the Harley from Injustice, and her power was essentially being always underestimated.

And making Ollie rethink his branding.

# ? Aug 10, 2023 22:55

Rev. Bleech_: Oct 19, 2004; ~OKAY, WE'LL DRINK TO OUR LEGS!~

Assepoester posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLFAXvFYhsE

this version is canon, sorry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1mLiBViw0U

# ? Aug 11, 2023 02:57

Joe Fisto: Dec 6, 2002; And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

Rev. Bleech_ posted:

this version is canon, sorry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1mLiBViw0U

I could be wrong, but no one has ever seen this masked menace Bane and Wesley Willis in the same room at the same time.

# ? Aug 11, 2023 03:21

Air Skwirl: May 13, 2007; Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

OnimaruXLR posted:

I know there are allegedly some decent newer ones, but I still think that overall Batman Beyond comics are terrible enough that they could be erased from history and no one would be any worse for it

I also think it's unfair to pin Barbara x Bruce on Dini; it's probably a product of Timm's imagination, on the grounds that he was a producer on the animated Killing Joke, and that featured this particular cracked ship prominently. Meanwhile, I don't think the Bruce x Barb relationship has been picked up on at all in any of the recent Batman: The Adventures Continues comics that have been written by Dini and Burnette, which have introduced stuff like animated universe Jason Todd and Court of Owls

It first came up during the Batman Beyond TV show (possibly the Return of the Joker Movie, but I think the tv show) but it was just a sly wink and with the implication Night Wing had long left being part of the Gotham scene or Barbara's life. I can't remember the exact line but it was something like Terry saying "yeah, you were his partner" and Barbara saying "and more" and a reaction shot of Terry.

# ? Aug 11, 2023 07:41

CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

Air Skwirl posted:

It first came up during the Batman Beyond TV show (possibly the Return of the Joker Movie, but I think the tv show) but it was just a sly wink and with the implication Night Wing had long left being part of the Gotham scene or Barbara's life. I can't remember the exact line but it was something like Terry saying "yeah, you were his partner" and Barbara saying "and more" and a reaction shot of Terry.

And it was stupid then, too.

# ? Aug 11, 2023 16:21