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Pope Corky the IX posted:Why did they call him Harley Race? He didn’t look very fast to me. He's not caucasian, he's a biker.
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Aug 7, 2023 08:26
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Are there any extant photos of ISW's Harley Racist and the Ku Klux Klowns
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Aug 7, 2023 14:17
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Kim Justice posted:Yeah, New Japan by a considerable distance. All Japan probably could have made more money than it did at its peak in the early-mid '90s but Baba was very conservative and risk-averse as a promoter -- he was happy to do the exact same tours year on year and was content with ending them on a Nippon Budokan sellout. Later in the decade they were still doing good business in Tokyo but they badly started to decline outside of the capital. As Meltzer says, their match-ups got pretty stale and they didn't have much exposure on TV (they had like, a half-hour graveyard slot on Nippon TV). If I remember correctly, the 1998 and 1999 Dome shows were largely financed by NTV. In the 80s you had three companies with a prime-time slot weekly (NJPW had TV Asahi, AJPW had NTV and AJW had Fuji); I believe NJPW was mostly the biggest on ratings but the others would spike for big matches: AJW did huge numbers for the biggest Crush Gals matches. I believe they started to get moved later and later gradually by the late 80s and by the end of the decade all were graveyard slots: AJPW had their TV cut to 30 minutes in 1995 and then that went off to NOAH when the split happened (and lasted through 2009; with NTV continuing to air NOAH shows on G+ into 2020 only ending when Abema wanted them post-Cyberfight purchase). AJW went through periods of losing their primetime shows (believe they lost it for a bit in the early 80s, after the first Nagayo/Dump hair match Fuji refused to air the second one and that caused issues which is why that was released separately on VHS and they discovered that, in fact, they could make money releasing video tapes of wrestling) and lost the traditional hour show in early 1998 after the near bankruptcy and the exodus after they couldn't pay anyone for months at a time: they got an hour a month (I think it was) back later in 1998 with ATHENA but that was a shortened version of shows aired on Cable and that was cancelled in 2002. NJPW ended up keeping their graveyard slot - and in fact have better TV exposure than anyone in a long time via that and a primetime slot on BS Asahi which is one of the bigger cable stations. Its the interesting thing with the narrative about 90s Japanese wrestling in the West: the focus of people on things that got hyped here means that people think that All Japan was bigger than New Japan throughout that period when it wasn't and like they were losing the more mainstream audience pretty consistently; and that's why the split happened: the wrestlers saw things going down and thought they had ideas to fix it but wouldn't challenge Baba while he was alive out of respect. People look at a one year period in the 90s that AJW were very hot and assume that lasted a lot longer than it did: the interpromotional run was big in late 1992-1993 and the embers of that powered the 1994 Dome show but like it petered out quick: they had a run of big shows in 1996-97 that were disasters and because of that (and the Matsunaga Brothers' incompetent handling of money) they were not paying people by the end of 1996 and it went tits up by the end of 1997. New Japan gets ignored a bit more yet they were the bigger company and had the bigger stars (look at the Keiji Mutoh retirement run and how it drew) and were the one able to last the wider collapse in interest of wrestling.
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Aug 7, 2023 16:56
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IceAgeComing posted:
can confirm. this is absolutely the first time i realized NJPW was the moneymaker.
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Aug 7, 2023 22:16
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I was going down the rabbit hole with WWF Backlash, the supposed cancelled sequel to No Mercy on N64. Apparently, despite showing up on so many lists of awesome games that got cancelled, it turns out its very existence was a hoax. There was never any magazine preview image of Kurt Angle on top of the Hell in a Cell, it was not shelved after being 30% complete, etc. There were never any plans for a No Mercy follow-up on the console. So I've seen it appear on a couple YouTube lists of cancelled wrestling games, usually at #1, and with it I've seen footage of WWF wrestlers in the AKI engine walking out with animated faces. Maybe not "animated," but with their expressions changing in a kind of wonky way. Now that I know that WWF Backlash was never a thing... what the hell was that footage from? Early version of No Mercy? Modded version of No Mercy?
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Aug 9, 2023 15:56
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Gavok posted:I was going down the rabbit hole with WWF Backlash, the supposed cancelled sequel to No Mercy on N64. Apparently, despite showing up on so many lists of awesome games that got cancelled, it turns out its very existence was a hoax. There was never any magazine preview image of Kurt Angle on top of the Hell in a Cell, it was not shelved after being 30% complete, etc. There were never any plans for a No Mercy follow-up on the console.
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Aug 9, 2023 17:18
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Yeah, my impression always was that AKI’s next project was Mayhem 2 using an upgraded VPW engine on PS2. When that got canned because WCW went under, they used the engine for Def Jam Vendetta and Ultimate Muscle games.
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Aug 9, 2023 23:10
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Backstage Assault was Mayhem 2?
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Aug 9, 2023 23:11
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The talk about weightlifting got me wondering... Did Andre lift weights?
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Aug 10, 2023 01:02
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The Grey posted:The talk about weightlifting got me wondering... Did Andre lift weights? Nah. He seemed to have been a reserved guy so no one knows for sure why, but some combination of didn't need to/ didn't care / was personally self-conscious about his size and didn't want to be any larger / his body was already stressed nonstop from his condition and he'd rather be at a bar medicating with booze
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Aug 10, 2023 01:26
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It wasn't his fault being the biggest and the strongest. He didn't even exercise.
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Aug 10, 2023 06:54
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Trying posted:Backstage Assault was Mayhem 2? I dont think they ever made any serious progress on development for mayhem 2 beyond prerendered images which may not have even come from AKI proper.
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Aug 10, 2023 09:23
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This might be a silly question but I just watched the DSOTR ep about Bash at the Beach 2000 so it's on my mind. Why was Hogan so popular? Was he good in the ring? Good at promo? What was the deal?
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Aug 11, 2023 00:30
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Sisal Two-Step posted:This might be a silly question but I just watched the DSOTR ep about Bash at the Beach 2000 so it's on my mind. Why was Hogan so popular? Was he good in the ring? Good at promo? What was the deal? Incredible charisma and the perfect body for an era where people thought big muscular dudes were the toughest. Not a great in ring wrestler but one with great timing to do the few things he did.
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Aug 11, 2023 00:37
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It might be hard to understand if you weren’t watching and/or weren’t a kid in the 80s and early 90s but he was just an incredibly charismatic. Dude was larger than life both physically and in personality. He was the right guy in the right place at the right time. His ring work wasn’t great, but it didn’t need to be in 80s WWF with the way the crowd bought into him.
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Aug 11, 2023 00:41
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His charisma can’t be overstated, dude had it in absolute spades. He pretty much embodies the spirit of Pro Wrestling in that late 80s/early 90s mould. We know now that he’s a terrible human being but it says something about the enduring power of Hulkamania that you can still get a buzz if you’re watching old stuff and see him do his schtick. I will never not hoot and holler over a good Hulking Up.
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Aug 11, 2023 00:45
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It also needs to be understood that the WWF/WWE has never been good and the fanbase just likes bad stuff. There is nothing worse than Hulk Hogan so he was the most popular. His popularity was only challenged by The Ultimate Warrior for a reason.
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Aug 11, 2023 01:00
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Hogan was also a great seller, which I feel gets overlooked in the "wasn't good in-ring" discussions. A big part of what made his comebacks blow the roof off is that he would spend half of the match selling like the bad guy was killing him for real.
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Aug 11, 2023 01:06
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Benne posted:Hogan was also a great seller, which I feel gets overlooked in the "wasn't good in-ring" discussions. A big part of what made his comebacks blow the roof off is that he would spend half of the match selling like the bad guy was killing him for real. You see so few guys look like they're crying in pain during a match, for all the terrible faults of HH he sure as poo poo looked like he was dying at times (maybe was tho)
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Aug 11, 2023 01:17
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MassRafTer posted:It also needs to be understood that the WWF/WWE has never been good and the fanbase just likes bad stuff. There is nothing worse than Hulk Hogan so he was the most popular. His popularity was only challenged by The Ultimate Warrior for a reason. the woodmaster is immortal brother
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Aug 11, 2023 01:25
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Sisal Two-Step posted:This might be a silly question but I just watched the DSOTR ep about Bash at the Beach 2000 so it's on my mind. Why was Hogan so popular? Was he good in the ring? Good at promo? What was the deal? He wasn't popular at all. He was like the least interesting member of the Flock and then disappeared in the shuffle when he joined the nWo
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Aug 11, 2023 01:31
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When I first got online and started talking wrestling in the mid 2000s, I met a lot of Hogan haters. Not because of who he is but because they're the ur-smark crowd who want nothing but Bret Hart super technical matches. I never understood this because it seemed incredibly obvious to me the first and only real important part of a pro wrestler is connecting with the crowd. Face or Heel, if you get a reaction from a crowd, who gives a poo poo if you can't work or talk. Find a manager to talk, find somebody to carry you in the ring, all you need is that "It Factor." Hogan had the It Factor, he could talk, he could make you live and die with him in the ring, and he looked incredible. Speaking of Bret, his ranking system of the three components of a pro wrestler - Charisma/Mic Skills, Ringwork, and Look - Hogan is a 11/10 in two of those categories so he could be like a 1/10 in Ring work (which he isn't that bad) and he'd still be a phenomenon. Now Sid...Sid is an example of an 11/10 in Look and 9/10 in Charisma and a 1/10 in Ringwork. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Aug 11, 2023 |
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Aug 11, 2023 01:43
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NikkolasKing posted:When I first got online and started talking wrestling in the mid 2000s, I met a lot of Hogan haters. Not because of who he is but because they're the ur-smark crowd who want nothing but Bret Hart super technical matches. I never understood this because it seemed incredibly obvious to me the first and only real important part of a pro wrestler is connecting with the crowd. Face or Heel, if you get a reaction from a crowd, who gives a poo poo if you can't work or talk. Find a manager to talk, find somebody to carry you in the ring, all you need is that "It Factor." This is why there's a difference between a great wrestler and a great worker. Hogan was never going to work a match like he was Dean Malenko, but with his size and stature and place on the card, you wouldn't want him exchanging wrist locks with someone smaller.
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Aug 11, 2023 02:15
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Trying to educate myself on the periods of wrestling that I wasn't watching - why did RVD never "succeed" in WWE?
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Aug 11, 2023 04:28
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Pylons posted:Trying to educate myself on the periods of wrestling that I wasn't watching - why did RVD never "succeed" in WWE? he was a star in ECW and wwe/f has been nothing but consistently malicious towards people who were popular in other companies first
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Aug 11, 2023 04:30
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Pylons posted:Trying to educate myself on the periods of wrestling that I wasn't watching - why did RVD never "succeed" in WWE? Well he did beat John Cena for the title at one point and was dual WWE and (WW)ECW Champion but then got busted driving with a bunch of weed and that was it. So he did somewhat succeed at a time. Other than that he was generally pretty solidly midcard/upper midcard.
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Aug 11, 2023 04:34
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Pylons posted:Trying to educate myself on the periods of wrestling that I wasn't watching - why did RVD never "succeed" in WWE? He was always always ALWAYS over but never pushed, tellingly during The Invasion when he came out of all the invaders, WCW and ECW, he was the only one cheered and it wasnt light cheers it was ravenous applause. And when they finally pushed him, after five years, he got busted for drugs in a traffic stop which of course RVD has weed on him its RVD but then it was well we can never trust you again so they never pushed him again. Then in the mid-late 2000s he developed a reputation, which honestly is supported retrospectively, of being a botch machine so during the era where people started to focus a lot on workrate and just overall skill he became a poster child for the "spot monkey" whose reach was exceeding their grasp and thus the hardcores decided RVW was no good anymore either so he didnt have any upswell of support.
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Aug 11, 2023 04:35
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NikkolasKing posted:When I first got online and started talking wrestling in the mid 2000s, I met a lot of Hogan haters. Not because of who he is but because they're the ur-smark crowd who want nothing but Bret Hart super technical matches. I never understood this because it seemed incredibly obvious to me the first and only real important part of a pro wrestler is connecting with the crowd. Face or Heel, if you get a reaction from a crowd, who gives a poo poo if you can't work or talk. Find a manager to talk, find somebody to carry you in the ring, all you need is that "It Factor." Thing is Hogan in 99/2000 probably was one of the worst wrestlers in the world as his character works was awful and he just couldn't connect with fans. It was just dog poo poo creative too (which he was part off) but like he was also just bad in the ring and like he had in the past just refused to change his character to adapt to the changing times (Despite his heel turn rejuvenating his character Hogan never learned the lesson that he needed to change his character at times to stay on top. It's why his one weakness as a draw was always burning out crowds)
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Aug 11, 2023 04:38
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Lid posted:He was always always ALWAYS over but never pushed, tellingly during The Invasion when he came out of all the invaders, WCW and ECW, he was the only one cheered and it wasnt light cheers it was ravenous applause. And when they finally pushed him, after five years, he got busted for drugs in a traffic stop which of course RVD has weed on him its RVD but then it was well we can never trust you again so they never pushed him again. I remember a point in WWE where RVD was getting those huge ovations but also had like 4 or 5 straight matches where he legit busted his opponents open. I can understand the guy being in the doghouse if he's an actual physical danger to other workers (but I also don't recall that being the reason for him not getting more of a push)
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Aug 11, 2023 05:19
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SatoshiMiwa posted:Thing is Hogan in 99/2000 probably was one of the worst wrestlers in the world as his character works was awful and he just couldn't connect with fans. It was just dog poo poo creative too (which he was part off) but like he was also just bad in the ring and like he had in the past just refused to change his character to adapt to the changing times (Despite his heel turn rejuvenating his character Hogan never learned the lesson that he needed to change his character at times to stay on top. It's why his one weakness as a draw was always burning out crowds) Yeah, this is a big thing to remember. Hogan's big strength is that he's constantly doing things to get his character over in-ring, which is more common now but was revolutionary by 80s standards, but the only character he knows how to play is Hulk Hogan. It's why his acting career sucks, and it's why he inevitably warps every company around himself if you let him.
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Aug 11, 2023 09:30
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NikkolasKing posted:Hogan had the It Factor, he could talk, he could make you live and die with him in the ring, and he looked incredible. Speaking of Bret, his ranking system of the three components of a pro wrestler - Charisma/Mic Skills, Ringwork, and Look - Hogan is a 11/10 in two of those categories so he could be like a 1/10 in Ring work (which he isn't that bad) and he'd still be a phenomenon. Yeah and even then, Hogan in the WWF/WCW rarely had his worker boots on, but they apparently went with him to Japan. https://youtu.be/RkQjVT_uJ0U
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Aug 11, 2023 12:19
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That was one of the problems with Hogan. He could sell and make someone look like a million bucks, but he'd so often choose not to do that.
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Aug 11, 2023 12:25
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harperdc posted:Yeah and even then, Hogan in the WWF/WCW rarely had his worker boots on, but they apparently went with him to Japan. He didnt need to do anything like that in North America because those fans are easy to please. Hogan always worked to the crowd and you had to work harder in Japan to get over.
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Aug 11, 2023 12:31
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Sisal Two-Step posted:This might be a silly question but I just watched the DSOTR ep about Bash at the Beach 2000 so it's on my mind. Why was Hogan so popular? Was he good in the ring? Good at promo? What was the deal? To add to what's been said, the format was very different during Hogan's heyday. Hogan's matches all had the same formula, where he'd initially dominate, lose control, get his rear end kicked for fifteen minutes, eat a finisher, then just decide he was invincible and win the match. Most of his storylines boiled down to "scary monster man roughs up Hogan and Hogan needs to rise to the challenge" or "Hogan's friend gets jealous and betrays him" or both in the case of his Andre feud. He was doing this for about eight years in WWF, but it took a long time for people to really get sick of it. Back in these days, WWF had three main shows. Superstars and Wrestling Challenge were weekly syndicated hour-long shows that mainly focused on squash matches with 2-3 overall storyline beats being thrown in there. The Monday night show was Prime Time Wrestling, which was two-hours and was mostly clips of throwaway midcard matches recorded from house shows. But there was also Saturday Night's Main Event, which aired on NBC several times a year, which was essentially what Raw is now. You would see Hogan cut promos on Superstars, Challenge, and Prime Time, but you wouldn't see him wrestle. You would on Main Event, though, as the show was treated as a big deal. So Hogan came off as a special attraction, especially in an era that was all about pushing house shows. That meant that if you wanted to see Hogan wrestle, your options were: - Seeing a house show if it came to your neck of the woods. - Saturday Night's Main Event. - A PPV, which only happened four times a year back then. - Seeing TV tapings and them doing a Hogan dark match to send the folks home happy. - Renting a Colosseum Home Video release. It helped keep the Hogan formula really fresh. I won't go into too much detail, but while they were a little more inventive with Hogan's booking towards the end of his initial WWF run, it ended with an insulting title win and even more insulting title loss before he left the company. Then he went to WCW, where he got to do the same Hogan bullshit against another collection of victims, all while being outright weirder with it. With Nitro starting up, there was more Hogan on TV and more Hogan matches. Not only were people getting burned out on him quicker, but the pre-Hogan WCW fanbase hated him from day one because he represented everything they hated about the business. The Hollywood Hogan heel turn was something built on necessity because as a face, Hogan was running out of mountains to climb. It was still incredibly shocking and was a welcome new coat of paint that the business needed. With the nWo as the cool heels who helped turn WCW into the #1 company, Hogan had the right balance of punchable bad guy who deserves an asskicking and the endearing visual of seeing your childhood superhero smoking a cigarette and being an rear end in a top hat because you're a moody teenager and this is exactly your poo poo. It was like watching your dad go through a midlife crisis and cheering him on because you just read Dark Knight Returns for the first time. Due to Hogan being lovely and WCW being amazing at making every bad decision possible, people got sick of Hollywood Hogan and he jumped back to the red and yellow persona. The nostalgia was there, but only for a while. Hogan vs. Flair did great business in 1999, but doing the same feud a year later was death. The Bash at the Beach situation was probably the best thing that could have happened to Hogan as the company was in a death spiral and he was flailing as a performer whose only strategy was to use his political pull to keep him on top. Then when Hogan came back to WWF, it was like a nostalgia speedrun. He returned with the nWo, had a WrestleMania match with the Rock where he was cheered like crazy, turned face, was so popular that they made him champion almost immediately, then everyone stopped caring all at once. Despite that, his post-title reign is probably my favorite Hogan run because he didn't have creative control and the company knew how to use him well for the most part.
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Aug 11, 2023 15:07
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Gavok posted:To add to what's been said, the format was very different during Hogan's heyday. Hogan's matches all had the same formula, where he'd initially dominate, lose control, get his rear end kicked for fifteen minutes, eat a finisher, then just decide he was invincible and win the match. Which leads to one of the greatest spots I have seen, Macho Man dropping the elbow on Hogan when they were tagging together just to trigger the Hulking Up process. 10/10, no notes, Savage knew the product.
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Aug 11, 2023 15:18
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Yeah I was a super Hogan mark as a kid in the 80s and early 90s, and even just following him via televised wrestling in the age of 12 channels and virtually no agency over which channel the TV was on, catching a Hogan match was a special special moment. When VHS rental became a thing, I ate up all of the Hogan I could get. So even if he was doing the exact same poo poo for 8 years that didn't matter to a 9-12 year old who at most was able to catch maybe 10% of what was even available to me to see. It was fresh every time.
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Aug 11, 2023 15:26
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harperdc posted:Which leads to one of the greatest spots I have seen, Macho Man dropping the elbow on Hogan when they were tagging together just to trigger the Hulking Up process. Ok that sounds amazing
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Aug 11, 2023 15:27
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harperdc posted:Yeah and even then, Hogan in the WWF/WCW rarely had his worker boots on, but they apparently went with him to Japan. WWF teaming up with SWS still feels like a fever dream but also the most fitting thing given SWS was a money mark promotion that fans did not care for
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Aug 11, 2023 15:30
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Captain Foo posted:Ok that sounds amazing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuqacRuUIdI Savage even goes “oh gently caress what do I do”, looks at the turnbuckle, and has a lightbulb moment
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Aug 11, 2023 15:36
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harperdc posted:Which leads to one of the greatest spots I have seen, Macho Man dropping the elbow on Hogan when they were tagging together just to trigger the Hulking Up process. There was an episode of the YouTube series Death Battle that did Randy Savage vs. Kool-Aid Man as a joke. The insinuation was that the two of them regularly have friendly fights to the death where the winner would use their resurrection powers to bring back the loser. Kool-Aid Man with his tears of rebirth (as seen at Mr. Peanut's funeral) and Savage with his revitalizing elbow drop.
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Aug 11, 2023 15:36
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