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Doomykins posted:very good Changeling RP in this thread
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Aug 11, 2023 21:38
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:I got bored and modded the rollback to give Nakai his missing recruitment again and: oh wow, this really is the shittiest start in the entire game, isn't it. Start with a siege battle, you have near-0 replenishment, and it gets worse from here? What? the start battle is very winnable but also, youre a horde, go wherever you want. no need to siege a town if you dont want to not sure what you mean by gets worse from here either. if you mean replenishment, then that gets solved easily. my last Nakai game, I was doing full replenishment on any unit, no matter how damaged, in 3 turns max, most units took less than that
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Aug 11, 2023 21:41
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Doomykins posted:very good Changeling RP in this thread
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Aug 11, 2023 21:43
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Reiterpallasch posted:chinese guy here just glad they didn't go in for the "asiatic hivemind cultures have no respect for individual life, therefore human wave tactics" chestnut.
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Aug 11, 2023 21:48
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not a bot posted:Bretonnia is the French bits of England under Plantagenet rule. The map of Bretonnia is exactly the same as the borders of England in mainland Europe during that time. This is pretty cool. I didn't know about this, but it's quite clever.
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Aug 11, 2023 22:28
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Bretonnia has a lot more going on than just "France," its one of the reasons I like them so much Same as the Tomb Kings, there's a whole shitload of other cultures in there alongside the various ages of Egypt
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Aug 11, 2023 22:51
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Reiterpallasch posted:chinese guy here just glad they didn't go in for the "asiatic hivemind cultures have no respect for individual life, therefore human wave tactics" chestnut. In Warhammer, human wave attacks because they have zero respect for individual life really more of Bretonnian thing.
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Aug 11, 2023 22:53
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I'd say Skaven get to claim the number 1 spot for wave tactics. Especially since they spend most of their time shooting into the backs of their waves.
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Aug 11, 2023 22:56
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Skaven artillery is highly accurate in a way
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Aug 11, 2023 23:02
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Dramicus posted:I'd say Skaven get to claim the number 1 spot for wave tactics. Especially since they spend most of their time shooting into the backs of their waves. There's a reason I always say that the 40k version of the Skaven is the Imperial Guard.
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Aug 11, 2023 23:04
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Cythereal posted:There's a reason I always say that the 40k version of the Skaven is the Imperial Guard. I always maintained that the Ratling snipers are secretly in charge.
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Aug 11, 2023 23:05
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I dont know posted:In Warhammer, human wave attacks because they have zero respect for individual life really more of Bretonnian thing. Hey now Empire's absolutely in on this too
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Aug 11, 2023 23:13
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I really like how evocative flagellants are. Here's some lunatics, let them eat the charge and fight the other meat shields, they're fine with it. Like most unbreakable units are brave, or lacking emotions, but flagellants are completely shattered by the weirdness of the setting to the point they lost their preservation instinct.
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Aug 12, 2023 00:07
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They’re the only ones who “get it”
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Aug 12, 2023 00:09
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tbf I too would likely go insane if I knew there was a strong possibility I would be killed by something called a "Soup Cannon"
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Aug 12, 2023 00:15
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Psycho Landlord posted:Hey now Really only flagellants. Everyone else is either mercenaries, assorted hunters, or actual professional to semi-professional troops. They are all relatively well-trained and one of the reasons the setting is so hosed is that they aren't untrained troops and they are still so outclassed.
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Aug 12, 2023 00:39
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Ravenfood posted:Really only flagellants. Everyone else is either mercenaries, assorted hunters, or actual professional to semi-professional troops. They are all relatively well-trained and one of the reasons the setting is so hosed is that they aren't untrained troops and they are still so outclassed. I mean yeah flagellants are the obvious pick here but electors absolutely will throw state troops into a hopeless charge if it buys time for the guns to work
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Aug 12, 2023 00:41
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Skaven? Giant rat men with guns? Sorry citizen, no such things exist. An inquisitor has been dispatched to your location.
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Aug 12, 2023 01:24
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The empire does care, as is shown by most of their soldiers being state troops that are trained and supplied by the state. Their equipment might be C tier but its a big step above what the bretonnia and skaven equivalents get. They just don't have a choice in how they use those troops, so lots of them are sacrificed for something more important. If the empire wasn't quite as divided, besieged on multiple fronts and allied to people who don't entirely have their best interests at heart I'm sure your average state trooper would be better equipped and trained. Brettonia I think also cares, but in a more abstract way. The successful brettonian lords understand that if ALL the peasants are killed or ground under by taxes or whatever then every other facet of brettonian society falls over. Sitting on a pretty horse with an ancient sword and armor passed down your family line for 500 years means poo poo if you and your army is starving and there's no one to carry all your stuff. Skaven absolutely do not give a single poo poo because they have an unlimited supply of weaker skaven to exploit to death. I think one of the reasons they're so cartoonishly evil is because they can't run out of slaves no matter what they do. They might locally exhaust a supply of slaves, but while they're turned away and thinking about going somewhere else to get more slaves their slave pens have overflowed again. This comes through in faction mechanics quite well I think. The empire has to care about what their lower classes think and suffer rebellions if they mismanage them, so they build stuff to appease them. Brettonia suffers penalties if you draw too many peasants from the fields so you have to carefully balance needing chaff in your armies vs your economy. The skaven can have as many stacks of slaves as they want. You can field 100 armies of nothing but slaves. But what they need is food to feed them all and the further you expand the worse the problem gets.
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Aug 12, 2023 01:44
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if the empire is above bretonnian and skaven for equipping their infantry, they are the third worst
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Aug 12, 2023 01:46
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If we're talking lowest level common soldier I think they rank around 5th, above chaos dwarf laborers and ogre gnoblars as well. Maybe 6th or 7th if we include vampire counts and tomb kings.
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Aug 12, 2023 01:52
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Carcer posted:This comes through in faction mechanics quite well I think. The empire has to care about what their lower classes think and suffer rebellions if they mismanage them, so they build stuff to appease them. Brettonia suffers penalties if you draw too many peasants from the fields so you have to carefully balance needing chaff in your armies vs your economy. The skaven can have as many stacks of slaves as they want. You can field 100 armies of nothing but slaves. But what they need is food to feed them all and the further you expand the worse the problem gets. In the launch version of WH2, the Skaven had much fewer ways of generating food, so the meta strategy was to provoke rebellions so you could kill them and turn them into food. The devs later adjusted the food system to the point that it's rarely a problem, but it was arguably more loreful at launch. You really did feel like you were on the verge of starvation each turn.
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Aug 12, 2023 01:53
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VC don't count because their undead are literally devoid of thought Tomb Kings... sorta count? I guess? But even the lovely near-mindless skeleton infantrymen are completely immortal, since even if they die they'll reform somewhere in nehekhara Life can't be worthless in this nerd debate if the faction in question doesn't actually spend lives
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Aug 12, 2023 01:53
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Third World Reagan posted:if the empire is above bretonnian and skaven for equipping their infantry, they are the third worst Depends on how you slice things. The Chaos Dwarves have slave troops and only equip their elites, ditto for Vampire Counts, Norsca/Greenskins/Ogres/Beastmen are usually relying on their troops to bring their own toys, the Lizardmen generally don't have to worry much about armor, and the various Chaos forces have, uh, special accommodations to equip their dudes. Really the standouts are the Dawi and various Elves above the Empire as far as what they give to their "average" fighter, followed by Cathay then Empire/Kislev.
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Aug 12, 2023 01:54
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In terms of "we care about our guys" I'd put Dwarfs at #1 followed by Cathay and Helves. The peasant militia aren't supposed to be the main forces of Cathay, they are mainly just for settlement defense. The standing armies are all Jade warriors who are on average better equipped (but not as skilled) as the average elf grunt.
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Aug 12, 2023 01:57
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Sure, but vampire counts could give their basic skeletons better equipment, like any sort of armor other than a lovely shield. They just don't care because they also have an unlimited supply of them. The tomb kings could also but those basic skeletons signed up to serve in that role for eternity by being born in khemri and failing to distinguish themselves somehow before death so their lack of better equipment is entirely on them not being worthy of it.
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Aug 12, 2023 01:58
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Psycho Landlord posted:I mean yeah flagellants are the obvious pick here but electors absolutely will throw state troops into a hopeless charge if it buys time for the guns to work Maybe I'm being pedantic but that seems different from "human wave tactics" where the point is to drown them in bodies/have so many troops you make them run out of ammo, rather than using them to let the guns work. Like, it's not good but they aren't choosing to throw unarmored and untrained troops at the enemy rather than give them gear and training. They're a resource, and not an unlimited one.
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Aug 12, 2023 02:09
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In the lore I think it says the army commanders have 0 say on if the flagellants fight or not. The flagellants are in the grip of insane frenzy, all the lords can do is try and make sure they're where they're most needed on the battlefield.
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Aug 12, 2023 02:26
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Ravenfood posted:Maybe I'm being pedantic but that seems different from "human wave tactics" where the point is to drown them in bodies/have so many troops you make them run out of ammo, rather than using them to let the guns work. Eh fair, I was mostly on the "value of human life" part of it, since the Empire doesn't actually value those troops outside the time they buy for the empire as a whole (and can't really afford to for the reason you already mentioned )
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Aug 12, 2023 02:36
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Carcer posted:If we're talking lowest level common soldier I think they rank around 5th, above chaos dwarf laborers and ogre gnoblars as well. Maybe 6th or 7th if we include vampire counts and tomb kings. I thought empire soldiers were pretty much the baseline average soldier
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Aug 12, 2023 02:42
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I thought empire soldiers were pretty much the baseline average soldier If you compare armor values, state troopers are pretty low (30) compared to a lot of factions where comparable tiered troops are in the 60-80 range. However, state troops are surprisingly skilled. Their melee defense and attack isn't shabby, especially after a couple techs and general skill buffs. You can field basic rear end empire swordsmen with low 50s in both attack and defense.
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Aug 12, 2023 02:45
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I thought empire soldiers were pretty much the baseline average soldier I meant the lowest level troops that factions will have in the bulk in all/most of their armies.
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Aug 12, 2023 02:51
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I meant tabletop sorry, at least when I used to play
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Aug 12, 2023 02:51
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I thought empire soldiers were pretty much the baseline average soldier Fluff-wise, state troops are surprisingly well equipped for how many of them there are - the Empire has one of the largest standing armies in the world. The Empire spends a lot of money on mass producing weapons and good quality leather armor for the state troops, provided by the Empire itself. No one outside the dwarfs of both types manufactures as much quality armor as the Empire. That's significantly better than what Bretonnian peasants wear for armor, and there's a lot more state troops than Bretonnian peasants under arms (Bretonnian noble lords tend to be rather wary of arming and armoring peasants, then teaching them how to fight effectively).
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Aug 12, 2023 02:55
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Are miners civilians?
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Aug 12, 2023 02:56
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Are miners civilians? So are warriors and longbeards. Irondrakes, ironbreakers, and hammerers are the professional dwarf soldiers.
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Aug 12, 2023 02:59
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Yeah I think for dwarves the distinction is less "these people fight, those people don't" and instead how much a particular dwarf has fought and if he's chosen to make it his profession.
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Aug 12, 2023 03:00
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Are miners civilians? All Dwarfs are. They live forever, so they spend most of their time doing civilian stuff like mining or making axes, and they practice fighting in their free time, which leads to centuries of practice. Most of the High Elfs are the same.
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Aug 12, 2023 03:01
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Well and any fight against a giant monster or other assorted super natural killing machines will be human wave tactics if you want it to be or not.
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Aug 12, 2023 03:12
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Well and any fight against a giant monster or other assorted super natural killing machines will be human wave tactics if you want it to be or not. Not if you use guns
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Aug 12, 2023 03:40
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