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selec posted:Is it bigotry essential to the belief, or is it crank magnetism? Hell, modern day George Noory lets callers ramble on about how COVID was a hoax and that the vaccine is the real thing killing people with as much pushback as he gave Bigfoot and Roswell weirdos 20 years ago.
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Aug 12, 2023 14:43
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Froghammer posted:Both? There's a lot of (for lack of a better word) comorbidities that lead to being a chud. Belief that Bigfoot is real and that the government is nefariously trying to cover it up has a lot of intellectual overlap with things like vaccine denialism, New Age alternative medicine, and freaking out about fluoride in water supplies. All that's much more easily recognizable as being part of the right wing radicalization pipeline now (thanks 2016!). That’s just crank magnetism. If there’s no actual thread between “Bigfoot exists” and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, then you just gotta be wary, but it doesn’t mean that being a Bigfoot guy or a flat earth guy is inherently reactionary. It’s like how natural/organic foods have a wide ideological spread, where you’ll have hippie granola crunchers and denim skirt church people showing up to the same coop distribution day. Fringe beliefs exist on the fringe, but you can’t really say what flavor of crank you got until they’re under the microscope. One of my favorite UFO buddies is a communist trans lady so mileage does vary.
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Aug 12, 2023 14:51
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selec posted:That’s just crank magnetism. If there’s no actual thread between “Bigfoot exists” and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, then you just gotta be wary, but it doesn’t mean that being a Bigfoot guy or a flat earth guy is inherently reactionary. Although, someone into one conspiracy theory is often into multiple conspiracy theories, and someone into multiple conspiracy theories is often into at least one involving Jews, and that's across the ideological spectrum. Edit: I guess I'm mostly agreeing with you, but I don't think there are too many people who think the earth is flat and have entirely normal ideas about the world otherwise, so I'd be much more skeptical than you appear to be. Quixzlizx fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Aug 12, 2023 |
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Aug 12, 2023 14:55
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selec posted:That’s just crank magnetism. If there’s no actual thread between “Bigfoot exists” and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, then you just gotta be wary, but it doesn’t mean that being a Bigfoot guy or a flat earth guy is inherently reactionary. Bigfoot is one thing since you can't prove it doesn't exist, but isn't flat-Earthism inherently reactionary? There is widespread, demonstrable proof the Earth is a sphere. You must reject objective, obvious facts in order to hold the belief. Same with believing aliens are real, that's not predicated in outright rejecting falsifiable evidence.
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Aug 12, 2023 15:17
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Quixzlizx posted:Although, someone into one conspiracy theory is often into multiple conspiracy theories, and someone into multiple conspiracy theories is often into at least one involving Jews, and that's across the ideological spectrum. Everybody’s a crank about something, it’s just whether it’s a social or economic or political belief that makes it different. This is sort of aligned with the idea that nobody is immune to propaganda, an idea that pisses people off despite the truth of it. You dig into anybody’s beliefs enough you’ll find a crank belief somewhere, and if you don’t they’re probably boring as hell. Hell, the president thinks you should lock people up for being addicted to drugs, a crank belief if there ever was one. Plenty of Americans believe in angels, or that their dead relatives have visited them. Looking down on crank stuff feels like a defense mechanism to me. Like if you explained the Jeffrey Epstein story in broad details in the 90s or early 00s to somebody, that there’s this international playboy child trafficker and he’s good buds with the former heads of state of the US and Israel and pretty much all the big name Science Influencers and he’s got an island with a weird little temple on it and he jets all over the world on his plane of sex slaves, and one of the sex slaves gave a foot massage to the guy who invented Bart Simpson you’d sound like a crank. Whoops, all true.
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Aug 12, 2023 15:21
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selec posted:Everybody’s a crank about something, it’s just whether it’s a social or economic or political belief that makes it different. This is sort of aligned with the idea that nobody is immune to propaganda, an idea that pisses people off despite the truth of it. You dig into anybody’s beliefs enough you’ll find a crank belief somewhere, and if you don’t they’re probably boring as hell. Hell, the president thinks you should lock people up for being addicted to drugs, a crank belief if there ever was one. Plenty of Americans believe in angels, or that their dead relatives have visited them. Conversely, people who are into crank stuff look down on things like science and "establishment" sources of information as a defense mechanism so they can uncritically absorb their preferred facebook group/conspiracy substack/rando podcaster who's revealing the truth (that coincidentally happens to perfectly align with their pre-existing narrative of the world) that the sheep don't/can't bring themselves to accept.
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Aug 12, 2023 15:27
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Quixzlizx posted:Conversely, people who are into crank stuff look down on things like science and "establishment" sources of information as a defense mechanism so they can uncritically absorb their preferred facebook group/conspiracy substack/rando podcaster who's revealing the truth (that coincidentally happens to perfectly align with their pre-existing narrative of the world) that the sheep don't/can't bring themselves to accept. Absolutely they do. Everybody swims in the waters that make them feel comfortable. I’d argue, however, that having a more rational picture of how things ”really” work is just a project of the self, a way of manifesting a self-image that has little connection with the material circumstances of your life. Being right or wrong about Bigfoot doesn’t seem to determine if you are rich or poor, able to survive in this country or not. The existence of woo woo health fads among the wealthy is proof that knowledge is decoupled from meaningful material gain. Plenty of gainfully employed engineers and law enforcement types I know believe wild rear end QAnon conspiracies. It literally doesn’t matter what you believe, your life isn’t driven by those things except in the most extreme of circumstances. Believing the earth is flat won’t hurt your NBA prospects, it turns out. You might as well believe what’s the most comforting or amusing things, based on how you feel that day, because being right certainly doesn’t make people happier or more materially comfortable. It’s completely decoupled from those things! Knowledge, in this day and age, is mostly just a hobby.
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Aug 12, 2023 15:35
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sasquatch is my daddy and he's going to protect me
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Aug 12, 2023 15:37
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selec posted:Absolutely they do. Everybody swims in the waters that make them feel comfortable. I’d argue, however, that having a more rational picture of how things ”really” work is just a project of the self, a way of manifesting a self-image that has little connection with the material circumstances of your life. Being right or wrong about Bigfoot doesn’t seem to determine if you are rich or poor, able to survive in this country or not. The existence of woo woo health fads among the wealthy is proof that knowledge is decoupled from meaningful material gain. Plenty of gainfully employed engineers and law enforcement types I know believe wild rear end QAnon conspiracies. It's funny that you should bring up Kyrie in this context because he actually proves the point in my OP, in that his career WAS affected once his proclivity for conspiracy beliefs escalated to promoting an antisemitic documentary. Edit: And I do happen to think it's gross to revel in a "post-truth" world, so I guess we're opposed on a fundamental level, there. Especially since, again referring back to my OP, people rarely stick to "harmless" delusions. And I'm not just sticking it to Bigfoot believers there, plenty of destructive lies are perpetuated by institutions with power, obviously. Quixzlizx fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Aug 12, 2023 |
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Aug 12, 2023 15:42
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People's (warranted) skepticism or mistrust of what they're told definitely leads them to accepting whatever crazy narrative they prefer. I think the problem is our need to have the answer, to "know" or otherwise be "right". I like to say the question is more important than the answer, because we suck at the answer. If people could harbor some healthy skepticism and free thinking without diving into the first insane rabbit hole that makes them feel validated, we'd be much smarter. I think it was Bertrand Russell who said we can only approach certainty. I have a lot more sympathy for somebody just generally questioning some official position than somebody substituting their own truth. Hell, I know people who are/were skeptical about vaccines. I can still talk to somebody like that. Man, who knows right? I don't, I'm not a scientist. But at the end of the day, sure seems like that uncertainty is better than the unpleasant certainty of getting covid or turburculosis or whatever. But the motherfucker who brings it all the way to nanochips and vaccine induced transexuality who has perverted a healthy level of doubt into just believing whatever validates them. Less harmful, but it's the same with ghosts and aliens and poo poo. Are there things perhaps beyond our ability to truly perceive and understand? Hell, probably. Is your dead grandfather flushing your toilet at night? No dude please stop.
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Aug 12, 2023 15:48
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selec posted:Absolutely they do. Everybody swims in the waters that make them feel comfortable. I’d argue, however, that having a more rational picture of how things ”really” work is just a project of the self, a way of manifesting a self-image that has little connection with the material circumstances of your life. Being right or wrong about Bigfoot doesn’t seem to determine if you are rich or poor, able to survive in this country or not. The existence of woo woo health fads among the wealthy is proof that knowledge is decoupled from meaningful material gain. Plenty of gainfully employed engineers and law enforcement types I know believe wild rear end QAnon conspiracies. This is a pretty good case for solipsism, all things considered.
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Aug 12, 2023 15:48
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Quixzlizx posted:It's funny that you should bring up Kyrie in this context because he actually proves the point in my OP, in that his career WAS affected once his proclivity for conspiracy beliefs escalated to promoting an antisemitic documentary. Yeah, crank magnetism at work! It’s why teaching people that knowledge isn’t power, it’s just a toy now, is ultimately where we should go. People get intoxicated on the idea that these ideas are powerful, but no idea is powerful anymore. Drain the mysticism from knowledge and you drain away that seductive “what’s the next thing they don’t want me to know” feeling. I think in a post-Kojima world it’s the only sensible approach. You can’t know your way out of material circumstances until you know your way into them, which very few people have ever done, compared to the vast inertial mass of humanity that makes up the overwhelming majority of us. But if you tell people that knowledge offers up power, they’re going to pursue what’s sold as secret knowledge because that must be where the reserves of secret power are stored! In fact, that’s just the tubgirl area of esoterica, and shouldn’t be taken more seriously than the metaphorical reference there. It’s for perverts and gawkers. But that’s an edge case, as I said—very few people have their material circumstances affected by their beliefs, but you will have the odd duck.
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Aug 12, 2023 15:51
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selec posted:Yeah, crank magnetism at work! It’s why teaching people that knowledge isn’t power, it’s just a toy now, is ultimately where we should go. People get intoxicated on the idea that these ideas are powerful, but no idea is powerful anymore. Drain the mysticism from knowledge and you drain away that seductive “what’s the next thing they don’t want me to know” feeling. I think in a post-Kojima world it’s the only sensible approach. You can’t know your way out of material circumstances until you know your way into them, which very few people have ever done, compared to the vast inertial mass of humanity that makes up the overwhelming majority of us. I think your ideas regarding knowledge would be right at home at a troll farm strategy conference. The fash playbook is to devalue truth/knowledge both ideologically (mocking knowledge workers, devaluing teachers and education, accusing educators of being woke propagandists meant to turn your sons into snowflake femboys and daughters into man-hating feminazis, etc.), and mechanically, by drowning the population in so much contradictory bullshit that: 1. As you correctly point out, the average person's livelihood does not depend on how well they understand how the government functions or whatever, and they don't have the time nor the inclination to validate everything they encounter, so they become demoralized by the endless amounts of competing, irreconcilable nonsense (often meant to tit-for-tat things that have actual evidence behind them, like a Hunter Biden laptop conspiracy theory for every Trump indictment) that is dumped upon them, and decide to either nihilistically disengage in the South Park Millennial sense, or feel validated to believe whatever they want to believe. 2. If you load up a bullshit propaganda shotgun and start firing it at people, it doesn't matter if pellets A, B, and C aren't coherent together, or even all blatantly contradict each other. Person A will emotionally connect with lie A and ignore that B and C contradict A, person B will emotionally connect with lie B, etc. If you carpet bomb people with propaganda, most people only need to feel engaged with one little scrap of it to end up as one in the win column. In conclusion, I don't agree that devaluing the concept of knowledge, or that knowledge should be considered more valuable when it has verifiable evidence behind it, will cause people to become less irrational, hateful, or destructive, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, there. I do think that perhaps some non-fash groups look enviously at the above playbook's efficiency and efficacy, and wish to employ it for themselves.
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Aug 12, 2023 16:42
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And then there's a point that Hannah Arendt has repeatedly raised: from a political standpoint, objective truth is a coercive and despotic force. Facts famously don't care about your feelings, but they are equally uncaring about your thoughts, your beliefs, your choices, or your consent. Like all tyrants, factual truth demands unquestioning acceptance and forbids debate, which leaves those who disagree with its message and those who object to any coercion in principle with only three options: surrendering, attacking the truth-teller, or retaliating with lies. Rational policy should be informed by the facts, but it needs to have more than just pointing to said facts and declaring them self-evident. It still requires the hard and resource-intensive work of crafting and selling persuasive arguments that take human factors, including opinions and feelings, into account. Rogue AI Goddess fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Aug 12, 2023 |
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Aug 12, 2023 16:43
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selec, that is a pretty good and briefly enticing rhetorical argument for not caring about knowledge, but it doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Like, we can see the consequences of people lacking knowledge all around us. (It's kind of like how Republicans have ideas that theoretically make sense - "if we require people to work to get benefits, they'll start a path to a good career!" - but any basic glimpse at material reality shows that the ideas are actually garbage. Man, wouldn't it be nice if people... knew that? With knowledge?) World Famous W posted:sasquatch is my daddy and he's going to protect me Half man and half machine... on the cover of a magazine! Sasquatch is my daddy and he's going to protect meeee!
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Aug 12, 2023 17:56
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:And then there's a point that Hannah Arendt has repeatedly raised: from a political standpoint, objective truth is a coercive and despotic force. Facts famously don't care about your feelings, but they are equally uncaring about your thoughts, your beliefs, your choices, or your consent. Like all tyrants, factual truth demands unquestioning acceptance and forbids debate, which leaves those who disagree with its message and those who object to any coercion in principle with only three options: surrendering, attacking the truth-teller, or retaliating with lies. When you think about it, physics is rather totalitarian. Who is nature to tell me what the gravitational constant should be?
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Aug 12, 2023 18:07
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Judgy Fucker posted:Bigfoot is one thing since you can't prove it doesn't exist, but isn't flat-Earthism inherently reactionary? There is widespread, demonstrable proof the Earth is a sphere. You must reject objective, obvious facts in order to hold the belief.
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Aug 12, 2023 18:29
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Judgy Fucker posted:Bigfoot is one thing since you can't prove it doesn't exist, but isn't flat-Earthism inherently reactionary? There is widespread, demonstrable proof the Earth is a sphere. You must reject objective, obvious facts in order to hold the belief. Yeah that's where I draw the line, if it's a 'let's go wander in the woods and hope to see a bigfoot!' it's alright. If it's denying science or creating conspiracies about people it's on track to be hosed up. Alien stuff kind of walks that line because of all the 'area 51 coverup' narratives and history of ties to antisemites like David Icke. A little playful magical realism is a fun way to use the imagination, but overindulging requires either possessing (or worse, actively cultivating) credulity in a way that could make one more vulnerable to more malicious discourses that hook into the same impulses. selec posted:Yeah, crank magnetism at work! It’s why teaching people that knowledge isn’t power, it’s just a toy now, is ultimately where we should go. People get intoxicated on the idea that these ideas are powerful, but no idea is powerful anymore. Drain the mysticism from knowledge and you drain away that seductive “what’s the next thing they don’t want me to know” feeling. I think in a post-Kojima world it’s the only sensible approach. You can’t know your way out of material circumstances until you know your way into them, which very few people have ever done, compared to the vast inertial mass of humanity that makes up the overwhelming majority of us. I think this is interesting but kind of myopic. If we're talking simply about possession of facts or beliefs, sure, that's often not a huge direct material advantage. However cultivating a complex of thought processes capable of warding off attempts of others to pull you into scams, hate thinking, or to resist personal despair / self motivate IS important and many bits of knowledge come in handy for navigating the situations a human may or may not encounter. Yes, there's a lot of knowledge that only ends up being an end in itself rather than a means to power, but treating all knowledge as solely a toy is way too caviler when 'ironic' racism/sexism/homophobia is a common onboarding path to radicalized ideology with serious outcomes for society. MixMasterMalaria fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Aug 12, 2023 |
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Aug 12, 2023 18:34
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dwarf74 posted:Flat Earth is generally nowadays confined to ultra-fundamentalist creationist Christians, rather than mere contrarians. Heliocentrism is the Catholic variety, near as I can tell.
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Aug 12, 2023 18:51
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Judgy Fucker posted:Bigfoot is one thing since you can't prove it doesn't exist Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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Aug 12, 2023 19:09
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Some Bigfoot hunters are tied up in young earth creationist circles, too. Not nearly as much as with Mokele Mbembe - living dinosaurs would be much more important to creationists - but it's a thing among cryptozoologists. As I understand it, the underpants gnome logic goes something like "this is a being that science says does not exist - and therefore evolution is wrong." It's not everyone mind you - but it's a part.
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Aug 12, 2023 19:20
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MixMasterMalaria posted:Yeah that's where I draw the line, if it's a 'let's go wander in the woods and hope to see a bigfoot!' it's alright. If it's denying science or creating conspiracies about people it's on track to be hosed up. Alien stuff kind of walks that line because of all the 'area 51 coverup' narratives and history of ties to antisemites like David Icke. I think the problem is that believing this stuff almost necessarily demands a reason for why other people don't believe this stuff. Once they're convinced that it's believable, they believe it should be convincing and believable for everyone else too. Conspiracy theories are a convenient and attractive way to reconcile "I think this evidence is absolutely convincing and believable" with "the entire rest of the country looks down on us and the scientists say all our evidence is hoaxes". As a result, people with fringe beliefs are highly prone to believing conspiracy theories and adopting other fringe beliefs. Bigfoot hunters have been organizing expeditions to find him for more than half a century, and they have plenty of supposed evidence of Bigfoot's existence. Evidence that, they think, should be sufficient to prove that he's real. So why doesn't the world accept Bigfoot's existence? Why is the scientific community insisting that all of their evidence is fakes, misinterpretations, and hoaxes? Could it be that their evidence isn't good enough? That's something that they can't easily accept. What other explanation could there be? It's far easier for them to believe that the scientific community is intentionally ignoring and discounting their evidence, whether due to simple denial or due to an active scheme to cover up Bigfoot. From there, it's easy enough to adopt other unscientific or anti-science beliefs. If the scientists are wrong about Bigfoot or actively covering up his existence, what else might they be wrong about or covering up? That's why cryptozoology is a gateway to the larger world of more dangerous conspiracy theories. Even if Bigfootism itself is relative harmless, it requires actively denying and suspecting the scientific consensus, and that lays groundwork for other beliefs.
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Aug 12, 2023 19:20
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I think the other element that makes conspiracies appealing for certain groups is that it deals with an issue that can be frightening: The reason for bad events/suffering may not be necessarily due to malicious actors but due to apathy or ignorance. Conspiracies can serve as a way to avoid confronting with that issue. Instead, they imagine malicious groups so they can pin negative events on them rather than on the casual apathy/ignorance. But when you "figure out" the conspiracy, you feel more in control, since watching these groups is more actionable than doing nothing, while still mostly doing nothing (until someone decides they have had enough and take action). This does have a lot of similarities with ideas more grounded in reality, such as monitoring groups with a history of problematic behavior, but the fundamental basis is very different.
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Aug 12, 2023 19:37
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Yeah the issue with this stuff isn't a bunch of people enjoying getting drunk and searching the woods for Bigfoot or talking about aliens. Its the next step when its not just a dumb hobby and becomes a belief. And then you hit the inevitable wall that the rest of society thinks your idea doesn't pass basic scientific method or evidence or whatever. And you either accept that and move on or you have to come up with a conspiracy to justify your beliefs. And once you open that door and start evaluating information and the world in that way the door doesn't close. And since you're already feeling like you're on the fringe and know stuff others don't and people are lying about you're naturally receptive to someone else coming along with some more stuff people don't know and don't want you to find out about.
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Aug 12, 2023 19:49
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I was weary about Wisconsin’s Supreme Court victory and wondered what the WISGOP’s next move would be to stop democracy. Well… Looks like they’ll try to have the Senate supermajority begin a impeachment to keep Protasiewicz from having a say in the redistricting. https://twitter.com/mcpli/status/1690380241070354432?s=46 Automata 10 Pack fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Aug 12, 2023 |
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Aug 12, 2023 20:14
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But enough about Dan Akroyd
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Aug 12, 2023 20:15
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Plus, just because knowing that the cause of bubble florencence is because of tiny amounts of krytpon gas breifely heating up to the temperature of the surface of the sun don't really help my physical existance doean't mean that doesn't contribute to my rich *inner* life. Like, gently caress, welding for 11 hours would be really boring if I wasn't thinking about other stuff, you know?
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Aug 12, 2023 20:20
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I feel like there's a large gap between modern hoaxes of chupacabras and Scottish lake monsters, and David Icke antisemitic lizardman conspiracies that made him a hero to the Aryan Brotherhood set, or ancient alien theories that amount to "the brown people couldn't do it themselves!" There's a lot of really loving goofy Bigfoot fanatics in particular, though. And most of us know people who entertain "Politicians are too incompetent to hide the truth but have also successfully hid it for decades" that dominate UFO theorycrafting and also lead down right wing/fascist rabbit holes.
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Aug 12, 2023 21:45
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Fox fired its Chief Legal Officer, evidently because it was his grand legal strategy to take the Dominion defamation case to the Supreme Court. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/11/business/media/viet-dinh-fox-departing.html quote:Fox Corporation’s chief legal officer, Viet Dinh, will depart at the end of the year, in a major shake-up at the company after the landmark $787.5 million settlement it paid to Dominion Voting Systems in April.
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Aug 12, 2023 22:49
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So his family released a statement, there are also a number of comments from his neighbors and Mormon congregation along the lines of "He was a nice old man. Sure he liked his guns and hated Biden, but we all knew he''d never really try to assassinate the President." Sticking your head in the sand seems endemic in Utah.Statement from the Family posted:We, the family of Craig Deeluew Robertson, are shocked and devastated by the senseless and tragic killing of our beloved father and brother, and we fervently mourn the loss of a good and decent man.    
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Aug 12, 2023 23:47
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The crank stuff is weird too because all crank beliefs are magical thinking but specifically the magical thinking we shun and not the magical thinking we embrace in society. Belief in bigfoot? Bad, evil, probably all right wing cranks. Belief in astrology? Fun witches, totally normal, gets published in the daily paper. Belief in divine resurrection and transubstantiation? Here's a tax break. Even conspiracy thinking, it's bad and aberrant to believe in conspiracies about malicious actors but totally normal and accepted to have beliefs that amount to "everything will work out because important and good people are in charge" which is often just positive conspiratorial magical thinking. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Aug 12, 2023 |
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Aug 12, 2023 23:54
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Am I a crank if I still believe that the piss tape is real?
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Aug 13, 2023 00:33
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Trazz posted:Am I a crank if I still believe that the piss tape is real?
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Aug 13, 2023 00:36
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Trazz posted:Am I a crank if I still believe that the piss tape is real? You are on the true path. Stay strong my friend
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Aug 13, 2023 00:39
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Wake up honey, a new "what are you gonna do, stabe me?" just dropped
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Aug 13, 2023 00:42
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Trazz posted:Am I a crank if I still believe that the piss tape is real? the only way to be safe is if you own the hat
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Aug 13, 2023 00:45
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This seems important. Police stage ‘chilling’ raid on Marion County newspaper, seizing computers, records and cellphones quote:MARION — In an unprecedented raid Friday, local law enforcement seized computers, cellphones and reporting materials from the Marion County Record office, the newspaper’s reporters, and the publisher’s home. This seems like a pretty cut and dry First Amendment violation, but it's worth paying attention to in the long run - let's see how it's litigated, and whether the police get anything more than a slap on the wrist.
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Aug 13, 2023 00:46
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Even worse, the reporter’s mom died https://twitter.com/bgrueskin/status/1690506623859519488?s=46&t=BHs6Pl38GJXGN2Y4xeriNA
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Aug 13, 2023 00:47
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Shooting Blanks posted:This seems important. It’s amazing anyone believes police are anything other than one more organized crime syndicate unique only in the strength of their ties to local government. Street gangs started as an attempted form of protection for communities as well.
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Aug 13, 2023 01:33
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Gumball Gumption posted:The crank stuff is weird too because all crank beliefs are magical thinking but specifically the magical thinking we shun and not the magical thinking we embrace in society. Belief in bigfoot? Bad, evil, probably all right wing cranks. Belief in astrology? Fun witches, totally normal, gets published in the daily paper. Belief in divine resurrection and transubstantiation? Here's a tax break. "There's an invisible man in the sky who tells me other peoples' genitals are wrong" is so tightly ingrained in society that it's even odds that someone quotes me and calls me a le epic euphoric redditor for mocking it.
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Aug 13, 2023 02:10
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