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bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost
spain portugal and greece show that sovereign defaults are a get one get 7 sorta deal

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harperdc
Jul 24, 2007


Knew I was getting it wrong somehow :eng99:

hypnophant
Oct 19, 2012

bob dobbs is dead posted:

spain portugal and greece show that sovereign defaults are a get one get 7 sorta deal

I knew Argentina had defaulted more than once just this century but some Wikipedia digging informed me it’s actually defaulted nine times since independence from Spain

Kangxi
Nov 12, 2016

"Too paranoid for you?"
"Not me, paranoia's the garlic in life's kitchen, right, you can never have too much."
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/10/business/russia-economy-ruble-inflation.html

The New York Times posted:

After Russia’s ruble hit a 16-month low against the U.S. dollar, raising fears of rising inflation, even one of President Vladimir V. Putin’s top cheerleaders in state media lashed out at the country’s financial authorities on Thursday over an exchange rate that he said was a subject of global mockery.

The Russian central bank took measures on Thursday to stabilize the currency, amid the latest squall of financial volatility unleashed by Mr. Putin’s war against Ukraine. This time, the challenges are seen in both a struggling ruble that is fueling inflation, but also in government budget deficits that raise concerns about the sustainability of Russia’s intense spending on the war.

The weakening ruble neared an exchange rate of 100 per U.S. dollar earlier this week, down by roughly 25 percent since the start of the year. The decline prompted the Bank of Russia on Thursday to halt purchases of foreign currency for the remainder of the year “to reduce volatility.”

The central bank’s move should help shore up the ruble, because when the bank spends rubles to buy foreign currency, it increases the supply of rubles in circulation, lowering their value. The ruble was roughly flat in trading on Thursday.

Scarodactyl
Oct 22, 2015


What is the difference between a ruble and a dollar?
About a dollar.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

I was morbidly curious about the history of the ruble

quote:

1 United States Dollar equals
100.00 Russian Ruble
Aug 12, 9:00 PM UTC · Disclaimer



LanceHunter
Nov 12, 2016

Beautiful People Club


Clearly this means that the BRICS will be the dominant currency union of the 21st (and 22nd) century.

pseudanonymous
Aug 30, 2008

When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

LanceHunter posted:

Clearly this means that the BRICS will be the dominant currency union of the 21st (and 22nd) century.

Yeah I mean there will have to be so many more BRICS bucks, like for every dollar in the world there will be 100 BRICS bucks

hypnophant
Oct 19, 2012
the dollar's days are numbered. all china and russia have to do is allow free movement of capital, and the whole rotten edifice will crumble into dust

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

Global economics and current events no+tweet megathread: R.I.P. the US dollar

Magnetic North
Dec 15, 2008

Beware the Forest's Mushrooms
I like the spirit but:

Hadlock posted:

Global economics and current events no-tweet megathread: R.I.P. U.S.D.

Maybe that's not funnier, idk.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

I will try harder on this dead gay comedy site, sorry

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007

pseudanonymous posted:

Yeah I mean there will have to be so many more BRICS bucks, like for every dollar in the world there will be 100 BRICS bucks

Without doubt the funniest one is having to say that millions of dong are equal to like $300.

Ugh speaking of which the Bank of Japan needs to get off its rear end and cool down the quantitative easing, the dollar is back over $1:140 yen. When I moved here it was as low as $1:75 at times.

Borscht
Jun 4, 2011
ITT a bunch of goons who just found out Argentina might have bad finances predict the downfall of the US dollar.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.


Is Britain really as poor as Mississippi?

mrmcd
Feb 22, 2003

Pictured: The only good cop (a fictional one).

I feel like clocking in at Alabama's level even with London isn't something to be too proud of either.

Lockback
Sep 3, 2006

All days are nights to see till I see thee; and nights bright days when dreams do show me thee.
That is some chart.

Cities, states, regions and countries all being measured against each other in GDP is always going to give weird comparisons.

LanceHunter
Nov 12, 2016

Beautiful People Club


mrmcd posted:

I feel like clocking in at Alabama's level even with London isn't something to be too proud of either.

I was about to fire off a post about how we should remember that Mississippi, Alabama, and the rest of the Deep South is insanely agriculturally productive and how that probably accounts for their relative wealth compared to the UK. Then I was looking further into it and found that actually manufacturing, of all things, is the biggest part of Mississippi's economy. Nissan and Toyota have big plants there, there's Ingalls Shipbuilding doing a bunch of contracts for the Navy, and Ashley Furniture also has a big operation there.

I was also about to post about how Mississippi is still poor, though, because of the income inequality issue there. Then I did more looking and saw that the median household income in Mississippi is $49,111 (£38,787.13), compared to £32,300 ($40,893.90) for the UK.

The stats say that 19.4% of Mississippi is in poverty, but only 17% of the UK is, though. Though it's tough to get a lot out of those numbers, because the Mississippi figure is the US Census Bureau measure of poverty while the UK figure uses their "absolute poverty (AHC)" measure.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

England has been coasting on their prewar imperial image for a long time yeah. Brexit probably isn't helping tremendously.

Leviathan Song
Sep 8, 2010
The median in the UK is lower but is seems like the bottom is less dire. Homelessness in the US is .18% vs. .004% in the UK, people without health insurance is close to 0% vs. 8.4% in the US. Social mobility is definitely worse but you're less likely to die starving in the street or in insulin shock. It's pretty hard to compare these things one-dimensionally.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Lockback posted:

That is some chart.

Cities, states, regions and countries all being measured against each other in GDP is always going to give weird comparisons.

At least it’s PPP adjusted although I presume that’s at a national and not metro level.

Kangxi
Nov 12, 2016

"Too paranoid for you?"
"Not me, paranoia's the garlic in life's kitchen, right, you can never have too much."
WSJ - The Economic Losers in the New World Order

The Wall Street Journal posted:

The world’s biggest economies are offering huge subsidies in a cutthroat race to win the industries of the future. The losers: all the countries that can’t pay up.

New tax credits for manufacturing batteries, solar-power equipment and other green technology are drawing a flood of capital to the U.S. The European Union is trying to respond with its own green-energy support package. Japan has announced plans for $150 billion of borrowing to finance a wave of investment in green technology. All of them are working to become less dependent on China, which has a big lead in areas including batteries and the minerals to make them.

Now, some smaller players are getting left behind. Many are nimble economies that were on the rise during decades of free trade, but are at a disadvantage in a new era of aggressive industrial policy. Industrialized nations such as the U.K. and Singapore lack the scale to compete against the biggest economic blocs in offering subsidies. Emerging markets such as Indonesia, which had hoped to use its natural resources to climb the economic ladder, are also threatened by the shift.

Intel has been offered $11 billion in subsidies from the German government to build two semiconductor plants, in what Prime Minister Olaf Scholz called the largest foreign direct investment in German history. The pledged government financing is substantially more than the annual budget of Singapore’s Ministry of Trade and Industry.

“Let me tell you plainly: We cannot afford to outbid the big boys,” deputy Prime Minister Lawrence Wong told supporters at a recent political rally.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

How is the US solar panel import tariff system working so far

Seems like China is producing them at half to a quarter the price of US factories

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

LanceHunter posted:

I was about to fire off a post about how we should remember that Mississippi, Alabama, and the rest of the Deep South is insanely agriculturally productive and how that probably accounts for their relative wealth compared to the UK. Then I was looking further into it and found that actually manufacturing, of all things, is the biggest part of Mississippi's economy. Nissan and Toyota have big plants there, there's Ingalls Shipbuilding doing a bunch of contracts for the Navy, and Ashley Furniture also has a big operation there.

To further agree with your post: people might not easily guess just how little agriculture contributes to GDP. In California, the most incredibly productive agricultural state in the country, ag contributes 1.25% to the state's economy. https://ajed.assembly.ca.gov/content/california-economy-0

Food production is hypercompetitive and extremely low margin, with technology having massively cut the labor cost over the last century (which is compounded by the exploitation of migrant, below-minimum-wage labor, of course). We enjoy very cheap food in America, and that means that like... making food doesn't make much money. This is also part of why agribusiness is so consolidated, with huge corps doing most of the growing: a small farm can't make enough money for its owners to survive unless it's specializing in one of the higher-margin (lower volume) products.

However. Having a highly productive domestic agricultural industry has huge benefits to a country, so focusing on GDP can be reductionist. If you don't produce most of your own food - or at least, operate as a net exporter of food - you have to be a net importer, at much higher costs, which has its own follow-on economic impacts.

As, uhhh, UK post-Brexit is realizing.
https://www.trade.gov/country-comme...resh%20produce.

quote:

The UK imports around 46 percent of the total food it consumes and is reliant on both imports and its agricultural sector to feed its population and drive economic growth. The UK’s geography, climate, and relatively wealthy population mean it will always be a significant importer, especially of fresh produce.

And the US is maybe flirting with:
https://www.usda.gov/sites/default/files/documents/USDA-Agricultural-Projections-to-2031.pdf

quote:

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

Hadlock posted:

How is the US solar panel import tariff system working so far

Seems like China is producing them at half to a quarter the price of US factories

https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/clean-energy-manufacturing/the-us-climate-law-is-fueling-a-factory-frenzy-heres-the-latest-tally

quote:

In just 12 short months, Biden’s Inflation Reduction Act has spurred more than 100 new cleantech manufacturing announcements and nearly $80B in private investment.



quote:

Solar manufacturing is headed for the South, too. Planned factories are concentrated in Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina, with some also coming to Ohio and solar giant Texas.

China-based Longi and U.S.-based Invenergy announced a plant in Ohio that they claim ultimately will be the largest U.S. solar manufacturing facility. And three Chinese companies have announced plans to construct their own plants in the U.S. JA Solar is building a 2-gigawatt solar panel factory in Arizona. Hounen Solar is planning a 1 GW solar panel plant in South Carolina. And Gotion is building a $2.4 billion battery plant in Michigan.



As I understand it, when they say "1GW solar panel plant" that means the factory will be able to produce 1GW worth of solar panels annually, in perpetuity. 1GW is equivalent to 2.5 million 400w solar panels or 3.33 million 300w solar panels which seems to be about the average size installed on roofs these days. There's about 82 million SFHs in the US

Hadlock fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Aug 16, 2023

LanceHunter
Nov 12, 2016

Beautiful People Club


Hadlock posted:

https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/clean-energy-manufacturing/the-us-climate-law-is-fueling-a-factory-frenzy-heres-the-latest-tally





As I understand it, when they say "1GW solar panel plant" that means the factory will be able to produce 1GW worth of solar panels annually, in perpetuity. 1GW is equivalent to 2.5 million 400w solar panels or 3.33 million 300w solar panels which seems to be about the average size installed on roofs these days. There's about 82 million SFHs in the US

I wouldn't quite say "in perpetuity". The factories are certainly going to be operating long-term, but you're probably looking at something like a 30-50 year lifespan before they need to be updated/retrofitted to remain in operation. This is a very good sign, though.

Total energy generation in the US in 2022 was 4.24 trillion kWh. Let's take a ballpark and assume that solar panels will produce at their capacity about 20% of the hours in a year (8760*0.2 = 1752) a plant that produces 1GW worth of solar panels would probably be making panels able to produce 1752 GWh (1.752 billion kWh) in a year. That ends up being about 0.04132% of total US energy generation. If the plant produces at capacity for 30 years, that's a respectable 1.24% of all US power on year 31 coming from panels it made. Since solar panels have a lifespan of about 30 years, if the plant continues producing at the same capacity beyond 30 years the work it would be doing would primarily be replacing previous capacity it made that has aged out.

Things are definitely moving in the right direction since the IRA passed, but it's going to be a really long road ahead.

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

That also assumes zero advances in w/ft2 in the next 30 years. Much more realistically, every one of those factories will be retooling to produce denser/more efficient/cheaper panels on a continuous basis in order to remain competitive. The factory itself is the biggest capital investment, and then ongoing smaller capital investments to keep tooling up to date or react to market forces etc. have much shorter ROIs and therefore become much more feasible.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

Yeah solar panels in 50 years will probably look vastly different from today

I'm skeptical we'll see above 30% efficiency in our lifetime though. Most panels struggle to exceed 20% and the best panels you can buy today are 23% I think

Car factories seem to do a re-tool every 6-8 years

They're claiming 25 year warranty but I've been looking at second hand panels on Craigslist (there's an unused spot in my yard that gets awesome sunlight 8+ hours a day) and a lot of them are from 2015 and having trouble making 60% of their nameplate capacity

Hadlock fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Aug 17, 2023

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007

Hadlock posted:

Car factories seem to do a re-tool every 6-8 years

Depends on the tools and the details, there’s usually tooling cost for a given project (eg unless you’re 100% carrying over a car’s exterior design, you’ll need new body tooling) and sometimes there are improvements to the existing hardware for production that need to happen too (eg for the robots moving components around, etc). But that’s not a full refresh or redesign of a plant.

Battery production also tends to be referred to by the annual production capability of the given factory, FWIW.

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

Hadlock posted:

They're claiming 25 year warranty but I've been looking at second hand panels on Craigslist (there's an unused spot in my yard that gets awesome sunlight 8+ hours a day) and a lot of them are from 2015 and having trouble making 60% of their nameplate capacity

I'm gonna bet that that 25 year warranty is against factory defects and absolutely not against the unavoidable decline in capacity that is an inherent part of current solar panel chemsitry.

Some researchers recently broke the current theoretical limits of efficiency with some new cleverness:
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adf5872

Science posted:

Two studies show how interfaces between perovskite layers and silicon cells in tandem solar cells can be modified to improve performance (see the Perspective by De Wolf and Aydin). Mariotti et al. showed that an ionic liquid, piperazinium iodide, improved band alignment and enhanced charge extraction at the interface of a trihalide perovskite and a C60 electron-transporting layer by creating a positive dipole. With these modifications, a 2.0-volt open circuit voltage was achieved in a silicon tandem cell. Chin et al. report the uniform deposition of the perovskite top cell on the micropyramids of crystalline silicon cells to achieve high photocurrents in tandem solar cells. Two different phosphonic acids improved the perovskite crystallization process and also minimized recombination losses. These modifications yielded perovskite/silicon tandem cells with certified power conversion efficiencies of more than 31% for active areas of at least 1 square centimeter. —PDS
Putting a layer of perovskite on top of the silicon cells got them 31% efficiency in the lab. That's not like a massive breakthrough but it demonstrates that there are still potential engineering advances to be made in efficiency, so that 30% limit at least might be surpassed in our lifetimes.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

Might. I think 30% efficiency with a warranty stretching decades is within the realm of possibility, but unlikely

Leperflesh posted:

I'm gonna bet that that 25 year warranty is against factory defects and absolutely not against the unavoidable decline in capacity that is an inherent part of current solar panel chemsitry.

From here

https://na.panasonic.com/us/solar-panel-battery-storage-warranties

https://na.panasonic.com/us/solar-panel-battery-storage-warranties/tripleguard-warranty

Panasonic website posted:

TripleGuard warranty covers your HIT® and EVERVOLT® Series standalone panels for performance output, parts, labor and shipping for 25 years.

I think Panasonic didn't roll out their 25 year warranty until like 2018 or so. I'm not sure what the watershed moment was but warranties went way up around that time across the board



Edit: it was in May 2017

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...-300454574.html

URL says it all really

Hadlock fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Aug 18, 2023

street doc
Feb 20, 2019

The job market in life science is brutal right now. Somehow none of this turmoil is being reflected in unemployment rates.

Really confusing.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22
life sciences is not that big a sector

Muir
Sep 27, 2005

that's Doctor Brain to you

street doc posted:

The job market in life science is brutal right now. Somehow none of this turmoil is being reflected in unemployment rates.

Really confusing.

In terms of private capital and the stock market, it seems like life sciences are always the first to drop and the last to recover.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

So two questions

1) what logical fallacy am I falling victim to when I look at the price shiller index since ~2019 and make this face :eyepop:



2. What fundamentals about the US economy have changed since 2022 that are somehow decreasing pressure on inflation? We still seem to have a ~2%* global labor shortage and I feel like prices need to go up way more than 10% before increased wages bring enough people back in to the market.

*Permanent 2% :coronatoot:

Baddog
May 12, 2001

Hadlock posted:

So two questions

1) what logical fallacy am I falling victim to when I look at the price shiller index since ~2019 and make this face :eyepop:


Try plotting it against the s&p... Or even just a 2% compound interest line.

Hadlock posted:


2. What fundamentals about the US economy have changed since 2022 that are somehow decreasing pressure on inflation? We still seem to have a ~2%* global labor shortage and I feel like prices need to go up way more than 10% before increased wages bring enough people back in to the market.

*Permanent 2% :coronatoot:

Money supply has tightened. Business investment is way down, since it has to meet a much higher bar for expected returns now.

pseudanonymous
Aug 30, 2008

When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

Hadlock posted:

So two questions

1) what logical fallacy am I falling victim to when I look at the price shiller index since ~2019 and make this face :eyepop:



2. What fundamentals about the US economy have changed since 2022 that are somehow decreasing pressure on inflation? We still seem to have a ~2%* global labor shortage and I feel like prices need to go up way more than 10% before increased wages bring enough people back in to the market.

*Permanent 2% :coronatoot:

Fundamentals weren’t he fundamental driver of the inflation. The idea has been debunked repeatedly in this thread.

One fundamental that has actually changed is the combination of housing prices and interest rate mean the velocity of housing sale is way down as people can’t afford to buy or sell.

Lockback
Sep 3, 2006

All days are nights to see till I see thee; and nights bright days when dreams do show me thee.

pseudanonymous posted:

Fundamentals weren’t he fundamental driver of the inflation. The idea has been debunked repeatedly in this thread.

One fundamental that has actually changed is the combination of housing prices and interest rate mean the velocity of housing sale is way down as people can’t afford to buy or sell.

This is impacting the M&A market too, which is adjusting but looks different than it did in early 2022.

Baddog
May 12, 2001

pseudanonymous posted:

the velocity of housing sale is way down as people can’t afford to buy or sell.

Really thought things were going to crack this spring and prices would come down considerably, but people (at least in general) just seem to be staying put, and the scarcity of homes is holding prices up even with mortgages through the roof. Just feels unsustainable at these levels of mortgage rates. I remember having a discussion with someone about 18 months ago where "8% mortgages would break everything!" was discussed. But we're almost there now, and attitudes have all been adjusted.


Lockback posted:

This is impacting the M&A market too, which is adjusting but looks different than it did in early 2022.

way different. venture capital still feels pretty lifeless as well. Maybe a tiny bit recovered from flatline.

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Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

Price of global trade has dropped dramatically from the peak covid crisis.



They are still up since pre-covid, as mentioned in the source, an article from June: https://www.freightwaves.com/news/trans-pacific-spot-container-shipping-rates-are-inching-up

This followup article from July 31st doesn't have that lovely chart above, but is useful for context
https://www.freightwaves.com/news/trans-pacific-shipping-rates-rise-as-carriers-constrain-capacity

quote:

Linerlytica said trans-Pacific deployments are down 12.1% to date, while Asia-Europe capacity is up 7.6%, “with further divergence expected in the coming months as even more capacity is added to Europe while capacity is withdrawn from the trans-Pacific market.”
...
West Coast indexes up 28%-50% since late June
Spot rates are still believed to be at loss-making levels in the trans-Pacific and recent double-digit gains are off a low base. Yet rates are moving closer to breakeven and they’re already above or in the vicinity of pre-COVID levels, according to most spot indexes.
...
US import bookings remain healthy
U.S. imports were up by single digits versus prepandemic levels during the first half of 2023. The bookings index data from FreightWaves SONAR’s Container Atlas implies U.S. imports should remain at healthy levels through August and into the first half of September.

The index covers a portion of overall bookings (not loadings) and is based on the date of scheduled departure. The index of bookings scheduled to depart Tuesday from all overseas ports was up 27% from the recent low hit on May 8 and up 9% from the index on the same date in 2019, pre-COVID.

Up 9% over 4 years seems to me, a guy who doesn't know much about this, like a pretty reasonable rate of growth if you ignore all the pandemic stuff. That transpacific and asia-europe shipping has returned to some semblance of normalcy is perhaps one indicator that the supply restriction driving much of the inflation in consumer goods over the last three years is basically done, although there may still be supply restrictions with specific commodities (ukranian wheat, lithium?).

The shortage of labor is overstated because it ignores that inflation more or less completely wiped out wage increases in 2021-2 and businesses have effectively not raised wages - wage growth has outpaced inflation since March but has a ways to go before it'll counteract the degree to which inflation outpaced wage growth Mar 2021 to Mar 2023.

source

I would guess that on an inflation-adjusted basis the restriction on business investment is coming from higher interest rates and not really a lack of labor, although again probably with key industry exceptions (especially health care?) and maybe local exceptions in specific job markets.

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