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E. Revenant posted:Early on there were purpose build mine clearing tanks which shot out lines of detcord to clear large areas but I haven't seen those mentioned for a long time now. One of the big problems with those was that they were big priority targets that were easy to takeout if used close to the front lines. This might be another use for cluster munitions. The land is already saturated with UXO, and you want sympathetic mine explosions which will hopefully set off duds too. I was thinking through a mass drone solution but a mine is much simpler and cheaper than any drone. Even the cheapest drone still needs motors, signal receivers and some sort of steering mechanism. And to be effective you'd want to put some sort of mine detection equipment on it, which will also be more expensive than the mine. There must have been places mined even more than this in past wars. But it would not surprise me if this kind of mine density is in the top 5 of examples. The frontline has been compressed and the entire stockpile of like 50 years of Soviet mine production is being dumped into it. Even if Ukraine had air superiority, and routed the enemy away from the lines, it would take a long time to clear this giving the enemy time to dig in again. This will probably take a novel solution to tackle a historic tactical issue, something wacky like this naval-demining plane: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_Wellington#/media/File:Dwi_wellington_front.jpg
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Aug 15, 2023 03:42
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 02:12 |
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Its the war-hovercraft's time to shine
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Aug 15, 2023 03:43
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the problem is that modern mines are extremely difficult to clear. 'Line charges' - long ropes of explosives - do not reliably clear mines, nor does shelling minefields. Western minefield assault tactics ultimately rely on bulldozers to physically push the dirt (and the mines it contains) out of the way of the assault column, as thats the only way to be safe. Of course, those bulldozers are extremely vulnerable and weakpoints for the entire assault. you can in theory try to slowly clear the mines with sappers, but the sheer size and density of the minefield makes it difficult, and of course the slowness of this approach makes it very easy for the enemy to concentrate artillery to break your assault.
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Aug 15, 2023 03:52
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Orthanc6 posted:This might be another use for cluster munitions. The land is already saturated with UXO, and you want sympathetic mine explosions which will hopefully set off duds too. Not necessarily, it's not uniform enough to create reliable avenues. Instead you get a lot of turned topsoil, some exploded mines but also some just slightly moved or turned around, some mines are buried slightly deeper and some are unaffected. So it just makes everything messier (muddier) and slower to clear. OTOH maybe there are uses when combined with other clearing techniques, but that would need to be tested in field to tell.
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Aug 15, 2023 03:58
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Explosives alone do not clear minefields. They help with the oldest versions of mines, but explosives alone weren’t good enough in the 1990s, much less now. It’s either slow deliberate dismounted work or it’s mechanized plows and minerollers, which the enemy shoots at.
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Aug 15, 2023 04:13
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Or, if the enemy is clever enough, there's a two-mine setup that uses a smaller mine at plow range as a trigger for a deeper, stronger mine farther back, directly underneath the vehicle.
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Aug 15, 2023 04:19
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Or, if the enemy is clever enough, there's a two-mine setup that uses a smaller mine at plow range as a trigger for a deeper, stronger mine farther back, directly underneath the vehicle. Is that really a thing? It seems unnecessary complicated compared to Russia's strategy of "just plant a million loving mines", which seems to be more than effective enough.
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Aug 15, 2023 05:09
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the holy poopacy posted:Is that really a thing? It seems unnecessary complicated compared to Russia's strategy of "just plant a million loving mines", which seems to be more than effective enough. It's a thing in at least some settings, but iirc something like it was very effective as a method of wrecking columns as a trap along roads during WW2, not as a defensive practice.
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Aug 15, 2023 05:13
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mlmp08 posted:It’s either slow deliberate dismounted work or it’s mechanized plows and minerollers, which the enemy shoots at. [clucks tongue] that is not how you convince the Ukranian public that the war is not worth fighting (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 15, 2023 05:19
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wonder how helpful drones are when demining, I bet fairly helpful if it's visible. wonder if you could attach a metal detector to one.
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Aug 15, 2023 05:21
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This is the combined arms breach video the US uses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ-sCT_maAQ If that looks extremely hard and complicated and also like it works quickly when the breaching force massively outnumbers the defenders at that point, you're right.
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Aug 15, 2023 05:27
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LifeSunDeath posted:wonder how helpful drones are when demining, I bet fairly helpful if it's visible. wonder if you could attach a metal detector to one. Denmark donated drones for mine clearance. They should probably just attach mine flails to drones and fly them through the mine fields faster than Russia can target them. It might be useful for clearing trenches too.
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Aug 15, 2023 05:32
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LifeSunDeath posted:wonder how helpful drones are when demining, I bet fairly helpful if it's visible. wonder if you could attach a metal detector to one. Mines don't show up on metal detectors anymore.
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Aug 15, 2023 05:35
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Owling Howl posted:Denmark donated drones for mine clearance. They should probably just attach mine flails to drones and fly them through the mine fields faster than Russia can target them. It might be useful for clearing trenches too. oh sick The Lone Badger posted:Mines don't show up on metal detectors anymore. quote:The scanners that the drones are equipped with can detect magnetic anomalies in the ground, and water and its surface. 
LifeSunDeath fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Aug 15, 2023 |
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Aug 15, 2023 05:38
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Yeah modern Anti-Personnel mines are specially designed to be non-metallic but most Anti-Tank mines are still metallic. Standard practice to prevent using a metal detectors to find the AT mines is to put enough AP mines around them that you're hosed either way.mlmp08 posted:Explosives alone do not clear minefields. They help with the oldest versions of mines, but explosives alone weren’t good enough in the 1990s, much less now. The theory was that if you have a line of enough explosives in a certain blast shape you can reliability deform the ground enough to clear a safe path. One big problem is that then any subsequent blasts can then put new mines into your already cleared path. You would need to do it in one go possibly with multiple detcord lines detonated simultaneously. Tough to do when you don't know how long that mine field actually is.
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Aug 15, 2023 05:58
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If you're a defender and you plant a billion mines to keep an attacker from reaching you, then doesn't that also mean that you've prevented yourself from advancing on them in the future because now you'd have to try to get through the same minefield? Or would you leave lanes through the minefield free of mines just for that very reason? But wouldn't that also make a chokepoint that the enemy could easily target?
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Aug 15, 2023 06:00
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Charliegrs posted:If you're a defender and you plant a billion mines to keep an attacker from reaching you, then doesn't that also mean that you've prevented yourself from advancing on them in the future because now you'd have to try to get through the same minefield? Or would you leave lanes through the minefield free of mines just for that very reason? But wouldn't that also make a chokepoint that the enemy could easily target? Russians have already had trouble with retreating into their own minefields. Also Russia has given up on the idea of conquering Ukraine whole.
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Aug 15, 2023 06:42
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this detcord poo poo is wild, as is realizing that upper level military strategy training has this consequentially gamified feel
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Aug 15, 2023 06:50
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Mines right in front of your own trench line are easier to clear away than mines right in front of the enemy’s trench line, plus they probably know where most of them are. It’s not going to be a fun job, but I don’t think it will stop them from ever attacking again.
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Aug 15, 2023 06:55
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Staluigi posted:this detcord poo poo is wild, as is realizing that upper level military strategy training has this consequentially gamified feel actually expending however many thousands of dollars worth of ammunition and vehicle to get multiple takes of that maneuver makes zero sense when some bargain bin CGI can get the concept across just as well, with later edits costing gently caress all. it's not gamified, it's just way, way cheaper and more flexible
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Aug 15, 2023 07:01
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Ubik_Lives posted:Mines right in front of your own trench line are easier to clear away than mines right in front of the enemy’s trench line, plus they probably know where most of them are. It’s not going to be a fun job, but I don’t think it will stop them from ever attacking again. When your talking a several k wide several hundred meter long mine field I would be very skeptical on their ability to accurately map where the mines are, and further use the mapping to be able to safely remove them. That sounds like a god drat logistical nightmare, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to be put on that mine clearing duty. I guess they might of put in some safety paths in their while laying the fields which with in a vehicle with gps could be reasonably safe way to get people through.
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Aug 15, 2023 07:14
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Qtotonibudinibudet posted:actually expending however many thousands of dollars worth of ammunition and vehicle to get multiple takes of that maneuver makes zero sense when some bargain bin CGI can get the concept across just as well, with later edits costing gently caress all. it's not gamified, it's just way, way cheaper and more flexible oh i don't mean that about the video (but i lolled at the command room of obj_dell_laptop) but how the complexity of these maneuvers found themselves translated well into gamified instruction or explanation as time went on gonna be excited to have my kids train on Xbox Drone Commander II growing up, on the official US military controller and everything
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Aug 15, 2023 07:18
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Get a good enough killstreak using the cheap drones and they'll let you login to the really good ordnance.
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Aug 15, 2023 07:31
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Fun thing to remember with that demining vid, for all the risk and difficulty shown in the demining process, simultaneously the entire attacking force is laying down suppressing fire to prevent the de-miners from getting toasted. So not only do you have to spend enough ammo to get to demining positions, you have to keep spending ammo until the job is done. And then you still have a good chance losing the demining equipment anyways cause nothing goes to plan in war. Seeing a peer-conflict demining op in action, NATO is probably tossing the book out and writing a whole new one. This will never be easy but it feels like even for NATO "go around" would be easier in almost any situation. Ukraine doesn't have that option unfortunately. I hope those drones can start giving them some kind of edge. Regarding Russia closing off their own ability to advance across their own mines, Russia needs another large mobilization to rebuild enough forces to have a hope of advancing in Kherson. Which would be even more politically dangerous than the last mobilization, especially post-Wagner mutiny. I don't think they had any illusions of moving forward on that axis for years. So making the entire floor lava, except mines, makes sense at this point.
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Aug 15, 2023 08:18
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The Lone Badger posted:Mines don't show up on metal detectors anymore. Late in the day they show up really well on thermal sensors from drones. That still leaves the problem of clearing them, but knowing where they are is the hard part. Not the dangerous part, but a drone operator can talk a sapper onto a mine to clear it.
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Aug 15, 2023 08:18
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I was wondering if you could get a bunch of old end-of-life bulldozers and equip them with armor and mine flails and use as expendable and remotely controlled vehicles. Kinda depends how fast they get knocked out I suppose - clearing a path through a minefield which is then blocked by a burned out bulldozer is probably not practical. Turns out Ukraine is, in fact, repurposing construction equipment for mine clearing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDfnIjVeI0U
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Aug 15, 2023 09:02
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What they should do is up-armor a shuttle crawler and just roll it over the minefield 
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Aug 15, 2023 09:46
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Charliegrs posted:If you're a defender and you plant a billion mines to keep an attacker from reaching you, then doesn't that also mean that you've prevented yourself from advancing on them in the future because now you'd have to try to get through the same minefield? Or would you leave lanes through the minefield free of mines just for that very reason? But wouldn't that also make a chokepoint that the enemy could easily target? I was thinking the same thing. There HAS to be some route or avenue that is unmined, or some weak spots in the stretches of minefields, otherwise Russia's own attacks would get bogged down in the minefields while Ukrainian artillery shoots at them. Either the Ukrainians haven't found them, or the Russians have definitively given up on attacking in those areas?
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Aug 15, 2023 09:59
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Deltasquid posted:I was thinking the same thing. There HAS to be some route or avenue that is unmined, or some weak spots in the stretches of minefields, otherwise Russia's own attacks would get bogged down in the minefields while Ukrainian artillery shoots at them. Eh…not necessarily. If you don’t plan on attacking through there again (the width and depth of the minefields kind of suggests that to me), fully saturating the area to break up an attack wouldn’t be the worst tactical move. Also, knowing where the mines are is one thing; doing something about them is another thing that’s already a massive pain in the rear end, before anyone is trying to shoot at you or drop artillery in your general area. Sure, they’re showing up on IR cameras now but are those decoys? Are they real? Even the Russians probably don’t know, if that’s even a thing they’re doing.
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Aug 15, 2023 10:13
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mllaneza posted:Late in the day they show up really well on thermal sensors from drones. That still leaves the problem of clearing them, but knowing where they are is the hard part. Not the dangerous part, but a drone operator can talk a sapper onto a mine to clear it. Yeah here's a tweet about it with a picture: https://twitter.com/kms_d4k/status/1688919282061869056 I wonder how well this works though if the mines are buried a bit deeper, or if there are also non-metallic mines which might not get hot in the same way (someone said antipersonnel mines are non-metallic these days).
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Aug 15, 2023 11:52
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Doing my semi-annual Army Engineer Post for the thread. My background is 21 years in the U.S. Army, the last 15 as a combat engineer or engineer officer. Clearing mines under fire is the ultimate nightmare for combat engineers, not to mention their commanders who have to plan and resource the operation. As mentioned a few times above: line charges, like the MICLIC, just push mines out of a narrow zone so forces can push thru a lane and secure the far side. Called a Breach, it assumes the attacking force is leaving the mines for someone else to deal with and just wants to get past them and to the enemy as quickly as possible. Even explosively cleared lanes need to be proofed then marked safe. Those are all separate steps with different equipment or people. A vehicle with a plow or rollers follows the line charge and makes sure all the mines are detonated. You keep a few of those on standby in case the primary hits a mine mid-chasis or eats a missile. Then some dudes run out there and triple-check while laying out markers to show the safe route. Once done the attacking force rolls over the markers dead bodies and onto the objective. This whole (U.S. focused) mission is supported by ungodly amounts of tanks in support by fire positions, artillery, CAS, attack aviation, etc. Doing it piecemeal or on a budget like Ukraine is forced to do has no good solutions. There are some options available that I used back in 2013 that could still be around. There are robot mine clearing machines the size of a small bulldozer with flails to safely clear small lanes for foot traffic. There are also ground penetrating radar in several different forms - handheld, drone, etc - that improve detection. Thermal was huge for us in Afghanistan as well. Having enough to go around was always an issue. A favorite trick we used in the palm groves of Iraq was controlled burns. That detonated lots of IEDs, mines and caches but was expensive as we had to coordinate and pay the landowner. Not sure how well that would work on an open grass field of mines. Not enough fuel concentration to heat the little bastards up, I'd guess. Unfortunately, the tried and true method is a guy with a non-metallic rod and a grappling hook, slowly clearing a shoulder width path at 5-10 meters an hour. Best option that I can see from the sidelines is Ukraine has to make a hard choice to move artillery from elsewhere to concentrate on where they want to breach. Artillery is the one spot you can't skimp on if you want through a minefield. You need suppression on defenders and their artillery as well as TONs of smoke. Like 1 smoke round for every HE going out. Skip tanks, jets, drones, just get more tubes and rockets to the location. Just to caveat some stuff, there are some other options the U.S. has but since I have not seen it mentioned on the news or the internet, I won't talk about them here
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Aug 15, 2023 13:01
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How deeply are mines usually buried? Do you get mines with non-pressure triggers (magnetic anomaly etc) so they'll survive mine rollers undetonated until they get the exact right signal to detonate?
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Aug 15, 2023 13:23
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Has anyone invented self burrowing mines that you can launch from a plane or missile? An army could launch a few on a cleared path and create real problems.
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Aug 15, 2023 14:19
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Sounds like something from our friends at Dahir Insaat.
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Aug 15, 2023 14:33
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daslog posted:Has anyone invented self burrowing mines that you can launch from a plane or missile? An army could launch a few on a cleared path and create real problems. Idk (I think they aren't) if they are self burrowing but they exist as well as in artillery shell format.
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Aug 15, 2023 14:37
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daslog posted:Has anyone invented self burrowing mines that you can launch from a plane or missile? An army could launch a few on a cleared path and create real problems. Butterfly mines are the big one, AT mines I don't know how you would get them to burrow themselves without being super obvious.
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Aug 15, 2023 14:45
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Artillery- and rocket-deployed mines exist, and Russia in particular is using them very effectively in Ukraine. This capability is useful both in denying areas between the forward lines of troops (the grey zone), as well as cutting off assaulting forces from logistics and follow-on forces. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_Scatterable_Mines
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Aug 15, 2023 14:53
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No wonder the US invested so much into air superiority and air cavalry.
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Aug 15, 2023 15:47
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Charliegrs posted:If you're a defender and you plant a billion mines to keep an attacker from reaching you, then doesn't that also mean that you've prevented yourself from advancing on them in the future because now you'd have to try to get through the same minefield? Or would you leave lanes through the minefield free of mines just for that very reason? But wouldn't that also make a chokepoint that the enemy could easily target? Assuming they even want to attack further instead of suing for "peace," at this point I figure they could just have a penal battalion march through it.
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Aug 15, 2023 16:50
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 02:12 |
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The Lone Badger posted:How deeply are mines usually buried? Generally, the clearing and proofing method will try to cover all your bases but the vast majority of them literally beat the poo poo out of the mine to induce detonation. Most mines are super cheap since they are made for massive deployment. Even raising the cost a little changes the cost factor to use them a lot. The U.S. has some fancy mines that shoot out trip wires in several directions and they are programmed to destroy themselves after a maximum timeline (a few days). They don't need to be fancier to do their job. The strategy behind (U.S.) mine doctrine is to use mines to supplement direct fire platforms placed behind it (tanks, dudes with gun, etc). This is supposed to be a temporary phase while your forces prepare an attack. We personally have nothing in the books that I know of that accounts for minefields on the scale Russia is using them. But also, it's a very small chance you'd run into a thermal or magnetic triggered mine. Majority will be simple tilt - rod or pressure plate.
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Aug 15, 2023 16:59
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