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Frosted Flake posted:They are going to be so disappointed when they find out that their elite naval demolitions commandos have been ruined by 20 years of just murdering people and calling for air support while growing beards and bragging to everyone within earshot in Virginia Beach bars. Probably going to be even more disappointed when they try to fight a real war with imperial state terrorists and realize that poo poo won't work on regular army troops who are going to post watches so your dumb ghost recon rear end cant walk into their formations and call artillery on you so your mega tactical operator rifle ends up blown to bits by a mortar along with the rest of you
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Aug 15, 2023 01:35
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The AC 130 being peak "win more" terror platform that has literally zero role in a war against an opponent with any level of air defense but I think this special submarine so your precious baby operators don't get their beards and oakleys wet is probably a close second
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Aug 15, 2023 01:36
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The Oldest Man posted:The AC 130 being peak "win more" terror platform that has literally zero role in a war against an opponent with any level of air defense but I think this special submarine so your precious baby operators don't get their beards and oakleys wet is probably a close second one of those operator movies the streaming services poo poo out every month or so featured that thing as the climax mowing down insurgents and it was one of the most nauseating “bad rear end” spectacles I’ve ever seen
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Aug 15, 2023 01:40
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https://twitter.com/USARPAC/status/1690867605522014208?t=3EDwQoxvIZHlAWGWSia7YA&s=19
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Aug 15, 2023 03:54
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Innovations in losing to rice farmers
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Aug 15, 2023 03:56
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I realize that it would've meant ww3 but helicopter borne cavalry crashing headlong into Soviet AA networks would've been amazing to see
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Aug 15, 2023 03:58
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The Oldest Man posted:Did someone say subs It has to be launched by a surface ship? You intend to get a surface ship within 70mi of a hostile shoreline, realistically probably less than 50 because water currents exist, and then have it linger there for a day or more while scooty puff jr goes in and gets out? God save them if the team gets busted or somebody finds the minisub or turns on a radar or sends up a plane. Does the navy have a stealth ship to pull out of its rear end to mothership this with? And this is supposed to be a counter to loving China?! What an astounding grift. I can only respect the hustle.
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Aug 15, 2023 04:13
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Slavvy posted:I realize that it would've meant ww3 but helicopter borne cavalry crashing headlong into Soviet AA networks would've been amazing to see It is kind of funny when it happens in Wargame/WARNO
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Aug 15, 2023 04:16
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/USARPAC/status/1690867605522014208?t=3EDwQoxvIZHlAWGWSia7YA&s=19 When you maneuver warfare your light infantry too hard and pre-surround them with enemy force concentrations, get your dick and balls sawn off, then teach your kids that you would have won if those drat politician cowards hadn't done a stab in the back to you after a decade of getting paddled frat style by dirt poor communists
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Aug 15, 2023 04:23
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Complications posted:scooty puff jr Lol
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Aug 15, 2023 04:24
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Slavvy posted:I realize that it would've meant ww3 but helicopter borne cavalry crashing headlong into Soviet AA networks would've been amazing to see The ussr also went hard on air mobility
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Aug 15, 2023 04:25
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The Oldest Man posted:Probably going to be even more disappointed when they try to fight a real war with imperial state terrorists and realize that poo poo won't work on regular army troops who are going to post watches so your dumb ghost recon rear end cant walk into their formations and call artillery on you so your mega tactical operator rifle ends up blown to bits by a mortar along with the rest of you world's deadliest sniper wali running away because a russian t-72 shot in his general direction 
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Aug 15, 2023 04:30
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Stairmaster posted:The ussr also went hard on air mobility It's just as dumb when they do it op
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Aug 15, 2023 04:31
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Stairmaster posted:The ussr also went hard on air mobility Yeah definitely, NATO didn't have Soviet levels of air defense though because they thought fighter planes would take care of all that like they did in ww2. The soviets had the opposite experience and decided you couldn't rely on having air cover at any time.
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Aug 15, 2023 04:44
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The Oldest Man posted:The AC 130 being peak "win more" terror platform that has literally zero role in a war against an opponent with any level of air defense but I think this special submarine so your precious baby operators don't get their beards and oakleys wet is probably a close second Imagine trying to ac-130 your way through a WW2 flak barrage. Pom poms alone would probably do it.
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Aug 15, 2023 04:55
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Slavvy posted:Yeah definitely, NATO didn't have Soviet levels of air defense though because they thought fighter planes would take care of all that like they did in ww2. The soviets had the opposite experience and decided you couldn't rely on having air cover at any time. Fighters as your primary and only air defence when they're a bunch of too expensive to use broken down hanger queens is peak someone else's problem.
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Aug 15, 2023 04:56
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DancingShade posted:Imagine trying to ac-130 your way through a WW2 flak barrage. Pom poms alone would probably do it. Ramstein C-130s Get Invasion Stripes For D-Day Commemoration Next Year quote:We get the sole honor in the Air Force of applying liberation stripes to our aircraft in celebration of 80 years of NATO air superiority in Europe,” Tech. Sgt. Garrett Magnie, 86th Maintenance Squadron aircraft structural maintenance noncommissioned officer in charge, said in a statement. “The 37th Troop Carrier Squadron, now known as the 37th Airlift Squadron, flew Whiskey Seven over enemy airspace. Historically the 37th can lay claim to be a part of the Normandy liberation.”
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Aug 15, 2023 05:03
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86th wimp-lo squadron. Let's make it doctrine.
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Aug 15, 2023 05:08
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KomradeX posted:It is kind of funny when it happens in Wargame/WARNO The Korean War scenario in Red Dragon when NK deploys the helicopter battalion and I have Vulcans just chewing them up 
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Aug 15, 2023 06:26
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The Oldest Man posted:When you maneuver warfare your light infantry too hard and pre-surround them with enemy force concentrations, get your dick and balls sawn off, then teach your kids that you would have won if those drat politician cowards hadn't done a stab in the back to you after a decade of getting paddled frat style by dirt poor communists idk, I think Hostomel airport has sort of shown the concept still has some utility, albeit less than this quip might suggest.
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Aug 15, 2023 11:52
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Weka posted:idk, I think Hostomel airport has sort of shown the concept still has some utility, albeit less than this quip might suggest. I agree. We should send in the tier 1 high speed low drag operators into everwhere, with no support, and just let them show the rest of us how it's done with macho and will while we watch all the way back from operations a continent or two away with the aircon. They got this.
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Aug 15, 2023 12:05
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Weka posted:idk, I think Hostomel airport has sort of shown the concept still has some utility, albeit less than this quip might suggest. I think the difference is that Hostomel was a surprise attack against an disorganized enemy, rather than part of regular warfare with against an army with some of the world's highest emphasis on air defence. I'm sure it can be useful for certain operations, but not in the way that the US is envisioning it.
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Aug 15, 2023 12:06
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Airmobile means they're faster to get somewhere instead of most of the army that gets somewhere by truck and train. The forces that were supposed to stabilize the front line in Kharkov were airlifted there by helicopter on like day 2.
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Aug 15, 2023 13:09
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Even before helicopter losses started to mount in Vietnam, I think most people saw air mobility as a way to enhance manoeuvre, rather than a striking force. However, Pentagon politics and corporate culture - the designation Air Cavalry - caused people to defend their own positions and promotions by claiming it was capable of a more and more aggressive role. It's the exact same reason the Airborne carried out a massive parachute drop as soon as they arrived in Vietnam (Junction City?) - they had to compete against the mechanized infantry for the budget and that meant inflating their importance and capabilities. 10th Mountain did the same thing in the early period of Afghanistan where they apparently convinced people in the Pentagon they were "real" mountaineers and sent those poor guys trekking all over the place in Operation Anaconda. In that case, Big Army had to steal the spotlight back from Special Forces with their first deployment to Afghanistan. Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 13:33 on Aug 15, 2023 |
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Aug 15, 2023 13:30
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ma i married a tuna posted:I think some moths also have a quick epileptic fit when hit with echolocation, resulting in erratic evasive manoeuvering. All my life I've thought that moths had a kinda goofy wing shape and method of flying compared to other insects. They seem slower and less coordinated. It never even occurred to me that it could be a trade off for anti echo location stealth. I wonder if butterflies are the same way.
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Aug 15, 2023 14:46
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Fell Mood posted:All my life I've thought that moths had a kinda goofy wing shape and method of flying compared to other insects. They seem slower and less coordinated. It never even occurred to me that it could be a trade off for anti echo location stealth. I wonder if butterflies are the same way.
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Aug 15, 2023 15:09
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DancingShade posted:Fighters as your primary and only air defence when they're a bunch of too expensive to use broken down hanger queens is peak someone else's problem. It's ok cuz all your fighters are also bombers which means they know how bombers think 
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Aug 15, 2023 15:23
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Zeppelin Insanity posted:I think the difference is that Hostomel was a surprise attack against an disorganized enemy, rather than part of regular warfare with against an army with some of the world's highest emphasis on air defence. I'm sure it can be useful for certain operations, but not in the way that the US is envisioning it. Also it didn't achieve its strategic objectives Air assault is the ultimate counter factual doctrine of "well if it had just worked then they would have won." It didn't and it very rarely does but gosh that counter factual is so appealing
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Aug 15, 2023 18:11
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*watching maybe the best air assault force in the world get bodied by a bunch of draftees and shoved off their objective with heavy losses thanks to "concentration of force, logistics, and artillery don't stop existing because you came in a helicopter"* "Yeah but if they had just won, the war would have been over"
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Aug 15, 2023 18:16
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The Oldest Man posted:*watching maybe the best air assault force in the world get bodied by a bunch of draftees and shoved off their objective with heavy losses thanks to "concentration of force, logistics, and artillery don't stop existing because you came in a helicopter"* That didn't actually happen, though. The VDV held the objective, did not suffer huge casualties, and then were replaced by regular units once they arrived by land. A lot of people bought into Ukraine's story that all of them were wiped out, but people were posting pictures of VDV just hanging out days after the story was already spread in the media. Ukraine also claimed to have shot down a whole bunch of Il-76es and claimed each one was carrying hundreds of paratroopers who all died, but produced zero evidence of that claim. A plane that big would leave, you know, any wreckage.
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Aug 15, 2023 18:46
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I thought he was talking about air cav in nam
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Aug 15, 2023 18:49
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Air cav will probably go down like paratroopers: It had its heyday when it was new but countermeasures now exists so it can only work in specific circumstances or on a smaller stealthier scale. Like, you're probably never going to start off a seaborne invasion with multiple divisions worth of paratrooper drops again, radar and SAMs exist now. You're not going to do a massive airlift of troops into a contested area, because MANPADs exist now. You can still get away with doing either if you scale them down or are fighting someone without the countermeasures.
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Aug 15, 2023 19:07
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Zeppelin Insanity posted:That didn't actually happen, though. The VDV held the objective, did not suffer huge casualties, and then were replaced by regular units once they arrived by land. They weren't wiped out but it didn't matter since the strategic objective of the operation was to create an air bridge into Kyiv and it didn't work and they did take a lot of casualties relative to the force committed and probably worse got a several quite valuable attack helicopters blown up providing cas for an operation that ultimately failedb not because of how it was executed or the quality of troops but because the operational concept was stupid to begin with
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Aug 15, 2023 19:26
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VDV don't surf.
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Aug 15, 2023 19:31
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The Oldest Man posted:They weren't wiped out but it didn't matter since the strategic objective of the operation was to create an air bridge into Kyiv and it didn't work and they did take a lot of casualties relative to the force committed and probably worse got a several quite valuable attack helicopters blown up providing cas for an operation that ultimately failedb not because of how it was executed or the quality of troops but because the operational concept was stupid to begin with I wonder when folks are going to get the hint about "Dropping light infantry way ahead of a main force" being kind of a bad idea unless you can ensure the main force can arrive more or less on time (you can't ensure anything in a war).
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Aug 15, 2023 19:33
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skooma512 posted:I wonder when folks are going to get the hint about "Dropping light infantry way ahead of a main force" being kind of a bad idea unless you can ensure the main force can arrive more or less on time (you can't ensure anything in a war). uhh never? scouts gotta scout
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Aug 15, 2023 19:35
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The Oldest Man posted:They weren't wiped out but it didn't matter since the strategic objective of the operation was to create an air bridge into Kyiv and it didn't work and they did take a lot of casualties relative to the force committed and probably worse got a several quite valuable attack helicopters blown up providing cas for an operation that ultimately failedb not because of how it was executed or the quality of troops but because the operational concept was stupid to begin with I absolutely see your point, and I'm not stanning Russian tactical genius, but I would argue that the operational concept was to enable a quick rush to Kyiv that would trigger negotiations. Both those things happened. Now, could we argue that they could have happened without the airborne assault? Probably. Would it have been more casualty efficient? Maybe. Would it have been just as quick, since the main force did have to drive there anyway? Maybe. I still don't think it was useless or particularly foolish though, compared to the general foolishness you'd find in any war.
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Aug 15, 2023 19:35
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*watching a ka50 that can knock out an entire mechanized company on its own get shot down while doing gun runs in support of a failed air assault* This is a good employment of material, we should do more of this
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Aug 15, 2023 19:36
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The Oldest Man posted:They weren't wiped out but it didn't matter since the strategic objective of the operation was to create an air bridge into Kyiv and it didn't work and they did take a lot of casualties relative to the force committed and probably worse got a several quite valuable attack helicopters blown up providing cas for an operation that ultimately failedb not because of how it was executed or the quality of troops but because the operational concept was stupid to begin with Idk man I think the strategic objective of the operation was to tie up troops defending kiev so the armoured column could turn up at the city gates unopposed (and extract the vdv). They overall plan didn't work because they Ukrainian government didn't immediately surrender as expected but the vdv operation itself seemed to go really well and did what it was supposed to.
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Aug 15, 2023 19:37
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Zeppelin Insanity posted:I absolutely see your point, and I'm not stanning Russian tactical genius, but I would argue that the operational concept was to enable a quick rush to Kyiv that would trigger negotiations. The operational concept was to let the vdv get their proverbial dick wet no different than that parachute drop into Vietnam
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Aug 15, 2023 19:40
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