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Yeah, the Hostomel airport has tried to be rewritten historically, but in actuality, it didn't seem the causalities were especially heavy (some helicopters did get shot down, but not enough to disrupt the operation), and they were able to secure at least a portion of the airfield until they were relived. It wasn't an uncontested landing, but it wasn't the debacle it was tried to be rewritten as. If anything the VDV did quite considering there was a brigade nearby, it is just that Russia's plan was very inflexible and was written for political not military concerns.
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Aug 15, 2023 19:43
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Slavvy posted:They overall plan didn't work because they Ukrainian government didn't immediately surrender as expected but the vdv operation itself seemed to go really well Air assault dot txt
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Aug 15, 2023 19:43
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The Oldest Man posted:Air assault dot txt So you think the Russian government wanted to surround Kiev so the VDV could get their "dick wet"?
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Aug 15, 2023 19:45
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Who dares wins. Sometimes you just have to go for it. Ensuring junior officers must get parachute wings and air assault qualifications to advance their careers is just common sense.  Ardennes posted:So you think the Russian government wanted to surround Kiev so the VDV could get their "dick wet"? That giant paper on the corporate culture of Airborne forces in modern militaries, including Russia, suggests that possibility.
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Aug 15, 2023 19:46
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Ardennes posted:So you think the Russian government wanted to surround Kiev so the VDV could get their "dick wet"? If that was ever going to work it could have been done overland and in fact they basically did do it overland
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Aug 15, 2023 19:49
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Considering how the rest of the war went, I don't think the VDV were short shrifted on seeing action. What with having to hold Herson for a couple of months.
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Aug 15, 2023 19:50
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Lostconfused posted:Considering how the rest of the war went, I don't think the VDV were short shrifted on seeing action. What with having to hold Herson for a couple of months. Getting to see action is different from getting to show everyone what big dick paratroopers they are and make sure everybody gets the right awards
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Aug 15, 2023 19:52
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Frosted Flake posted:That giant paper on the corporate culture of Airborne forces in modern militaries, including Russia, suggests that possibility. 
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Aug 15, 2023 19:52
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The Oldest Man posted:If that was ever going to work it could have been done overland and in fact they basically did do it overland Belt and braces. They did it overland AND with an airborne assault to maximize the chances of success. The objective of the plan wasn't attainable because of a massive political miscalculation on the part of the Russian government but that didn't make it a stupid or pointless plan; if the Ukrainian government was more like Georgia it would be lauded as a brilliant lightning operation that mitigated overall casualties. A good analogy is that D-Day would almost certainly have still succeeded even if the airdrops never happened, and even though they went pretty badly irl the allies still gained more than they lost by doing them. The resources would not have been better spent on more landing craft or DD Shermans or whatever. FF posted a book/paper a while ago talking about Russian doctrine where air assault is considered one component of a general offensive.
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Aug 15, 2023 19:56
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The relief of the VDV at Hostomel was so successful that it occurred three times: first when Ukrainians relieved the VDV of the need to hold the airport by forcing the VDV off the objective, and then again by Russian ground forces who finally made it to the airport and forced Ukrainian defenders off the objective, then a third time when Ukraine retook the airport and held it indefinitely. This just shows that flying in a bunch of light infantry to seize an airport next to enemy conscripts, national guard, and artillery worked three times in quick succession. Credit where it's due: wise of the Russian forces to abort any plan to land Il-76s at Hostomel.
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Aug 15, 2023 19:57
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skooma512 posted:I wonder when folks are going to get the hint about "Dropping light infantry way ahead of a main force" being kind of a bad idea unless you can ensure the main force can arrive more or less on time (you can't ensure anything in a war). Market Garden would have worked IF.....
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Aug 15, 2023 19:58
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every once in a while I think about glider infantry and am still blown away that multiple militaries thought that was a good idea, good enough to train and equip thousands of soldiers and build hundreds of gliders and actually use the things in combat in multiple major operations what a lovely job, you didn't get any of the extra pay or prestige that came with being a paratrooper but still got all the danger, and the glider pilots had all the training and prestige of a truck driver (in the US, at least, the Brits treated theirs better)
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Aug 15, 2023 20:02
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The Oldest Man posted:If that was ever going to work it could have been done overland and in fact they basically did do it overland Remember, the VDV by holding a portion of the airport also forced the Ukrainians to deal with it which meant those units couldn't go further down the road to reinforce whatever frontier units the Ukrainians had. It is just the Ukrainians who then flooded the Irpin and made it moot. I think you want to at least some type of air assault capacity in your back pocket to make sure the other side needs to respect it and I really don't think they went into Kiev just for some cred. ----- Personally, I don't think it would have ever succeeded even if the Russians had brought far more ground forces, it isn't just the Irpin, but urban combat gets extremely messy quickly, and once the Ukrainians could stabilize, it was going to be a massive siege. The Russians should have focused on isolating Kiev and then positioning their reserves to divide the Eastern half of the country while isolating the capital. The war would have taken time, but it wouldn't have been nearly the slog as right now.
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Aug 15, 2023 20:04
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Ardennes posted:Remember, the VDV by holding a portion of the airport also forced the Ukrainians to deal with it which meant those units couldn't go further down the road to reinforce whatever frontier units the Ukrainians had. It is just the Ukrainians who then flooded the Irpin and made it moot. Which made thenpull back from Keiv make no sense to mez until the Russians came and said they had a provional deal, pulled out of Kiev and got double crossed by Ukraine thinking the Wunderwaffe will save them
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Aug 15, 2023 20:08
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KomradeX posted:Market Garden would have worked IF..... Letting paratroopers into the ops planning is like letting Marines into the procurement meetings
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Aug 15, 2023 20:08
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KomradeX posted:Which made thenpull back from Keiv make no sense to mez until the Russians came and said they had a provional deal, pulled out of Kiev and got double crossed by Ukraine thinking the Wunderwaffe will save them Arguably, it was at least partially face-saving on Russia's part, I don't think their positions around Kiev were that tenable in the long-term just based on geography and road access that said. I think they could have forced the Ukrainians to come to them like they are doing right now through a bunch of minefields. The failure of the Russians was to assume this was a negotiable conflict in the first place. It is also why I think after the Russians have learned that lesson this is just going to be a drag out fight until the end. I don't think they will allow Western Ukraine to have an independent political existence either.
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Aug 15, 2023 20:19
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Russian troops getting even kinda, sorta, near Tbilisi caused Georgia to seek terms. With that in mind, even if the plan wasn't militarily viable, strictly speaking, neither were "little green men" popping up outside bases all over Crimea. Both the dash to Tbilisi and the rapid deployment of VDV, Spetsnaz and Naval Infantry around Crimea achieved their political objectives before they faced a serious military test that might have exposed faults in the plan. If Russian planners were working around the same assumptions, a coup de grace on the capital would secure victory without the relief column even having to fight their way to their relief. In historical terms, there's a difference in setting objectives between something like Pegasus Bridge, which had to be within a few hours march of Sword Beach because it was known they would have to fight through stiff resistance, and German paratroopers landing near Rotterdam, who were only saved by the Dutch government capitulating. I also think that within the VDV and Spetsnaz it's possible that Operation Storm-333 has taken on the same kind of legendary status that traps other institutions in trying to recreate the apotheosis of past glory despite changing circumstances. The Royal Navy was doomed to try to recreate Trafalgar, which dictated British naval thinking at least until Thatcher weakened them to the point that they no longer had the ability to even contemplate it. The Imperial Japanese Navy had the same dynamic with Tsushima until that institution was destroyed as well, that time by the Americans. The German Army, famously, was always trying to live up to the rapid manoeuvres against larger foes of Frederick the Great. So, to tie this all together, there has been a lot of great literature about the Royal Navy in the Far East recently. Specifically, historians have started to examine why very smart and experienced officers decided to send out Force Z. HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse could obviously not achieve what they were sent out to do, repulse the invasion of Malaya by raiding the Japanese invasion fleet. There is plenty of evidence that everyone concerned had good reason to know that. What was the purpose of this plan? Well, it's what Nelson would have done. Given the choices of staying in port or recreating the Battle of the Nile, there was no decision at all. This can be seen even more clearly in how they talk about another navy in a similarly dire situation, the Kriegsmarine at River Plate:  The Russian Airborne had a history of bold raids that didn't really achieve much, the two significant airborne operations of WW2 were the Vyazma operation of February–March 1942, involving 4th Airborne Corps, and the Dnepr/Kiev operation of September 1943, and bold raids that worked out, Storm-333. It seems like it was predetermined that institutional support would be behind something along those lines. The last point I want to make is that the American Airborne and Airmobile forces made sure that both Desert Storm and the 2003 invasion of Iraq had their plans specifically modified to include them, even if it was of negligible military value. A cynical person might say that this was done so that the units involved could make combat drops and carry out an air assault for their own sake, and that no officer within those institutions could reasonably speak out against the opportunity to do so. Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 21:26 on Aug 15, 2023 |
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Aug 15, 2023 21:21
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The Oldest Man posted:*watching maybe the best air assault force in the world get bodied by a bunch of draftees and shoved off their objective with heavy losses thanks to "concentration of force, logistics, and artillery don't stop existing because you came in a helicopter"* Agreed. You need to arrive in a rocket https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2021/8/13/space-force-dreams-of-using-rockets-to-supply-warfighters
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Aug 15, 2023 21:38
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Morbus posted:Agreed. You need to arrive in a rocket Buck bodgers in the 21st and a half century.
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Aug 16, 2023 02:19
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Morbus posted:Agreed. You need to arrive in a rocket uhh.... that's an ICBM w/o the payload. *don't worry, it's just troops* so who or what is it for?
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Aug 16, 2023 02:53
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Mister Bates posted:every once in a while I think about glider infantry and am still blown away that multiple militaries thought that was a good idea, good enough to train and equip thousands of soldiers and build hundreds of gliders and actually use the things in combat in multiple major operations glider infantry was about expediency: building a passenger/transport plane to do paradrops can be expensive, relative to building a wooden glider that can "just" be towed by not-dedicated aircraft that you already have that's why the British and the Germans did it, but the Americans for the most part didn't need or want to
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Aug 16, 2023 02:56
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Buffer posted:uhh.... that's an ICBM w/o the payload. To launch rich people into the sun.
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Aug 16, 2023 02:57
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stephenthinkpad posted:To launch rich people into the sun. full funding, proceed space force. you know what, I'm so pleased with this I'm going to go back to calling the air force the least constitutional branch.
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Aug 16, 2023 03:01
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Morbus posted:Agreed. You need to arrive in a rocket The jig is already up on this one quote:The military envisions procuring this capability as a service rather than buying its own rockets. New frontiers in mic grifting
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Aug 16, 2023 03:02
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Oh, Ithica, I remember that thing from Atomic Rockets.
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Aug 16, 2023 03:22
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There have been at least two recent good books about Glider Infantry, and the gist is that they were essentially helicopters before helicopters became technically feasible. They were an effective way to deliver light infantry with more substantial equipment than could be parachuted, and who would all arrive together rather than scattered.
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Aug 16, 2023 03:26
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In that context it makes perfect sense and clearly the weak point in helicopter based operations is that they're suddenly too expensive to be disposable like gliders were
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Aug 16, 2023 03:29
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 Advisor to Chairman Says Holds on Military Confirmations Hurt Total Force  www.defense.gov posted:Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Chairman Ramón "CZ" Colón-López said he faces a daily reminder of the risks posed by the ongoing delay of Senate confirmations for military nominees.
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Aug 16, 2023 03:46
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I'm the 300 generals and flags to command less than one tenth of the WW2 sized force. New doctrine: every squad leader is now general rank.
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Aug 16, 2023 03:53
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DancingShade posted:I'm the 300 generals and flags to command less than one tenth of the WW2 sized force. The Fijian strategem
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Aug 16, 2023 03:59
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Every
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Aug 16, 2023 08:51
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DancingShade posted:I'm the 300 generals and flags to command less than one tenth of the WW2 sized force. look at how blinged out they are though
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Aug 16, 2023 13:50
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https://twitter.com/ChinaDaily/status/1692104876749381916
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Aug 17, 2023 10:32
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https://twitter.com/Jerrykkk888/status/1692005106387173615?t=c02oCJ5sPjfQm0NH_UbyMA&s=19
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Aug 17, 2023 11:10
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stephenthinkpad posted:https://twitter.com/Jerrykkk888/status/1692005106387173615?t=c02oCJ5sPjfQm0NH_UbyMA&s=19 Pfft. That's only over half the length of the pacific ocean. It'll be fine. Just ring those Ukranians who figured out the secret sauce to shoot down hypersonics with a 100% success rate and ask for the recipe. Good thing the USA has a large hypersonic arsenal such as
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Aug 17, 2023 12:07
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General Says Deterring Two 'Near Peer' Competitors Is Complex   www.defense.gov posted:U.S. Strategic Command is focusing on extended deterrence during a time when the country faces two near-peer rivals, said Air Force Gen. Anthony J. Cotton yesterday. The command continually assesses the threats and examines the command "for sizing and the right force posture to meet the challenges which we would face," he said during U.S. Strategic Command’s Deterrence Symposium in Omaha, Nebraska.
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Aug 18, 2023 02:44
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It's fine, the USA has all that massive industry for sustainment leftover after WW2. To the people in charge that was just the other week, so they know what they're doing.
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Aug 18, 2023 09:24
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stephenthinkpad posted:https://twitter.com/Jerrykkk888/status/1692005106387173615?t=c02oCJ5sPjfQm0NH_UbyMA&s=19 We will overwhelm them with wave after wave of Aircraft Carriers
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Aug 18, 2023 09:39
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 The patch of the 75th Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Squadron revealed at the unit's activation ceremony on Aug. 11, 2023 quote:The United States Space Force has activated its first and only unit dedicated to targeting other nations' satellites and the ground stations that support them.
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Aug 18, 2023 11:03
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it's a skull
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