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Is there a definitive book on COINTELPRO?
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Aug 6, 2023 03:53
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Hannibal Rex posted:Can I get a book recommendation about Finnish-Soviet diplomacy, the Winter and Continuation Wars, and Finnish social cohesion and unrest throughout? A book that covers all of those topics properly does not really exist, not even in Finnish. Too broad. Also, can I ask what do you mean by "Finnish social unrest"? As for works about some of those topics, you are presumably asking for ones that have been translated into English? There most likely isn't anything that's up to date, research-wise. A lot of of the earlier history was written with just limited (if any) access to Soviet archives, which causes issues. Like, up until the 2000s, everyone "knew" that Stalin had broached the topic of picking up from where Winter war left off and occupying Finland in late 1940, and was rebuffed by Hitler. It was reported in Finland as "Hitler's protective umbrella spreading over Finland", but turns out, it never happened. The German ambassador to Finland just lied to the Finns that "yo, Stalin want's to resume hostilities and conquer you, but we blocked him, do you wanna join us to make sure it can never happen again" and the Finnish top brass bough it, hook, line and sinker. I think the most recent book in Finnish about the Germany's and Soviet Union's diplomacy between each other re: the uppity bog goblins is from 2019, Hitlerin ja Stalinin kaupankäynti Suomesta by Visuri and Murtorinne. It's not available as an ebook, so no running it through a translator either.
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Aug 6, 2023 08:45
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Warden posted:A book that covers all of those topics properly does not really exist, not even in Finnish. Too broad. Also, can I ask what do you mean by "Finnish social unrest"? So, I'm not sure how much water the argument holds that Stalin was sincere in his offer of trading territory, but in some parts of the internet you'll hear that accepting it would've had a better end result for Finland than refusing and ending up at war. Without knowing any details about Finnish politics of the time, I assume that this completely ignores that such a choice would likely have been massively divisive, up to being tantamount to political suicide. On the flip side, I expect that fighting a defensive war, even if you end up submitting to harsh peace terms, will have a long-term unifying effect on society. So basically, I'm wondering if there was a "surrender early" faction in Finnish politics that lost influence, or a "we surrendered too early" fringe post-war. Also, what position red veterans of the Civil War took. And yeah, I'd need English (or German) translations or scholarship on these topics.
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Aug 6, 2023 12:45
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What’s a good biography of Napoleon? What would be a good book about the Napoleonic era?
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Aug 6, 2023 15:16
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Napoléon: A Life by Andrew Robert's just came out and is pretty good. More personal about his actual life rather than his impact on European society, but worth reading.
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Aug 6, 2023 15:30
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While I cannot offer good book recommendations, I can attempt to answer some of the questions briefly.Hannibal Rex posted:So, I'm not sure how much water the argument holds that Stalin was sincere in his offer of trading territory, but in some parts of the internet you'll hear that accepting it would've had a better end result for Finland than refusing and ending up at war. Without knowing any details about Finnish politics of the time, I assume that this completely ignores that such a choice would likely have been massively divisive, up to being tantamount to political suicide. Latest research seems to suggest that Stalin was sincere in 1939 about territorial exchange, but the researchers took pains to point out that there is absolutely no guarantee Soviets wouldn't still have rolled into Finland in summer 1940 even if such exchanges had been made. Finnish diplomats hosed up royally in 1939 because the foreign minister was a loving muppet who lied to the cabinet that he had received unofficial security guarantees from the French and the British. Even Mannerheim (whom I hate) was of the opinion that Finland must agree to some territorial exchange, and had the FDF draft a compromise proposal that the cabinet refused. quote:On the flip side, I expect that fighting a defensive war, even if you end up submitting to harsh peace terms, will have a long-term unifying effect on society. So basically, I'm wondering if there was a "surrender early" faction in Finnish politics that lost influence, or a "we surrendered too early" fringe post-war. Technically, Finland didn't actually surrender in Winter war, nor in Continuation war. Both wars ended in negotiated peace settlements. And yes, you are correct that the Winter War pretty much united a divided nation. There never were any "we should surrender"-factions, but there was "we should make a separate peace as soon as possible"-faction during Continuation war, and before the Winter war quite many politicians had been in favor of concessions. One thing to note is that elections were suspended during ww2, and the parliament elected in 1939 before the Winter war remained in office until 1945 until after the Continuation war. Finnish domestic propaganda had been so effective during the Winter War that the general public was stunned and outraged at the harsh peace terms, because they were clueless about how hosed Finland was in March 1940 and it was one factor that lent support to a rematch in Continuation war. There were a lot of economic and social issues related to the relocation and rehousing of the population of the ceded territory, because it was about 12% of Finns who lost their homes. There was also some racism towards the Orthodox Karelians from the Isthmus. After Continuation War there were radical fringe extremists (including a noted piece of poo poo Lauri Törni) who wanted to keep fighting the Bolsheviks, and they colluded with Germany with pipe-dream plans of an armed coup and some moved to Norway and joined the German army, but there were very few of them. quote:Also, what position red veterans of the Civil War took. There seems to be an unspoken assumption that Finnish Reds had been mostly pro-Russian in the Civil War here, which isn't actually true. A larger proportion of the Red leadership had been, but not the rank and file. During WW2 the Finnish left was pretty much wholly unified in the defense of Finland, and you could count the number of Finnish reds who were pro-Soviet with your digits. That's because the die-hard Reds had either fled or later immigrated to the Soviet Union, where Stalin had a third of all Finns living in SU killed, including a lot of the former Red leadership from the Civil War. Soviet attempts at using Finnish spies and saboteurs pretty much all failed, and attempts to form Finnish military units from Finns living in SU didn't go great either. Ironically, the Finnish high commanded actually dithered and delayed full mobilization in autumn 1939, because they were unreasonably worried that the trade unions and socialists might either refuse the call or revolt. Neither happened, and the Finnish left was absolutely crucial to the defense of the nation, and the trade unions finally got the employers to come to negotiation table with them to make collective agreements about wages and stuff in January 1940 for the first time.
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Aug 7, 2023 12:10
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Thanks for the comprehensive reply, it's a good overview. If you can recommend a good recent book on the Winter War, I'd still be grateful, even if it doesn't touch on any of the points I asked about in particular.
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Aug 7, 2023 12:40
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I want to really thank everyone who donated so far! The books have been coming in and the money has been spent on more books than I purchased in grad school. You guys are the best! I'll take a picture tomorrow with the first few books in my shelves and keep everyone updated!
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Aug 8, 2023 04:19
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That’s great. I was concerned the lack of replies indicated a lack of interest.
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Aug 8, 2023 05:17
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Hannibal Rex posted:Thanks for the comprehensive reply, it's a good overview. If you can recommend a good recent book on the Winter War, I'd still be grateful, even if it doesn't touch on any of the points I asked about in particular. I wish I could, but the thing is, since I speak Finnish as my first language, I haven't really read any books in English about the Winter War, and thus cannot vouch for their quality.
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Aug 8, 2023 14:08
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So many books are on the way (placed a huge Amazon order last night) but I already feel better about this. With everything I ordered it should triple in size at least. Thank you so much goons!
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Aug 8, 2023 18:47
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Grem posted:So many books are on the way (placed a huge Amazon order last night) but I already feel better about this. With everything I ordered it should triple in size at least. Thank you so much goons! gently caress yeah, The Field of Blood. That's gonna blow some kid's mind in the best possible way.
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Aug 8, 2023 19:17
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I'm finishing up Lies My Teacher Told Me and I love it. Also enjoyed Ibram Kendi's Stamped From The Beginning. What else should I read along these lines? Already read / enjoyed Zinn
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Aug 8, 2023 19:21
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Fighting Trousers posted:gently caress yeah, The Field of Blood. That's gonna blow some kid's mind in the best possible way. Yup. It’s so good, and eminently readable for a middle schooler. E: plus super easy to tie into a U.S. history unit.
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Aug 8, 2023 19:22
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escape artist posted:I'm finishing up Lies My Teacher Told Me and I love it. Also enjoyed Ibram Kendi's Stamped From The Beginning. What else should I read along these lines? Already read / enjoyed Zinn An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States by Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz Open Veins of Latin America by Eduardo Galeano Anything from Eric and Philip Foner The Half has Never Been Told by Edward Baptist Black Reconstruction by W.E.B. Du Bois MeatwadIsGod fucked around with this message at 09:26 on Aug 9, 2023 |
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Aug 9, 2023 09:20
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MeatwadIsGod posted:An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States by Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz I'd also tack on Charles Mann's 1491 and 1493, Daniel Richter's Facing East from Indian Country, and Henry Gates' Stony the Road.
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Aug 9, 2023 15:54
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escape artist posted:I'm finishing up Lies My Teacher Told Me and I love it. Also enjoyed Ibram Kendi's Stamped From The Beginning. What else should I read along these lines? Already read / enjoyed Zinn The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein
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Aug 9, 2023 17:10
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Grem posted:So many books are on the way (placed a huge Amazon order last night) but I already feel better about this. With everything I ordered it should triple in size at least. Thank you so much goons! My books are going out tomorrow. The last few days since I got back from my trip have been bananas and I haven't had a chance to get to the post office yet. You'll hopefully receive them next week. Good to hear things are coming together for your effort!
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Aug 9, 2023 23:38
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escape artist posted:I'm finishing up Lies My Teacher Told Me and I love it. Also enjoyed Ibram Kendi's Stamped From The Beginning. What else should I read along these lines? Already read / enjoyed Zinn So I'm gonna use Zinn as a starting point- the first place I would look is towards some of the other radical historians in his cohort like jesse lemisch and staughton lynd. A few compilations of new left historiography from the 60s and 70s that might be of interest are the classic https://www.amazon.com/Towards-New-Past-Barton-Bernstein/dp/0394449193?ref_=ast_author_mpb and this compilation of essays from studies on the left, the journal founded by martin sklar. https://www.amazon.com/For-New-America-Politics-1959-1967/dp/B000I3YI8Y (also note the number of new left historians that contributed to these essays that took a right turn.) In addition to his historical essays, Jesse Lemisch has an interesting meditation on the role of radical history in society "On Active Service in War and Peace: Politics and Ideology in the American Historical Profession" in the 70's. Here's a more recent video with radical historians discussing that essay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3wgfZv3pN8 You might also find this (critical) essay useful to help contextualize some of the historiographical trends these historians were involved in: https://democracyjournal.org/magazine/35/what-new-left-history-gave-us/ If you want to go back further, like historians from the 1930s, you might like the robber barons or the politicos (although note how he treats reconstruction) by matthew josephson or Dynamite: The Story of Class Violence In America by louis adamic. Also if w.e.b. dubois is too long check out Reconstruction : The Battle for democracy by the communist James S. Allen. My favorite historians in the dissenting tradition are christopher lasch (skip the psychoanalytical crap like the culture of narcissm and the the real dope like the agony of the american left) and walter karp (the politics of war is probably the most well rounded, but all of his books are pretty congress and elite politics centric if thats not your thing), but they are a bit of a different flavor i think. a bit more literary in style and more ambiguous in their conclusions. i guess william appleby williams might also fall in that camp. if you want something that is pretty dense, but powerful in its scholarship and arguments, check out mike davis prisoners of the american dream. plogo fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Aug 10, 2023 |
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Aug 10, 2023 00:32
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I liked Schama's Citizens when I was 13 (had a big old hardcover) but the fact that it's reactionary hysterical bullshit really makes me hesitant to actually recommend it to anybody even if you preempt it with a disclaimer about its politics. case in point FPyat posted:I'm almost done with Citizens by Simon Schama. I understand that a lot of people who favor the Jacobins see plenty to disagree with in it, but I've quite liked it. He concurs with most of the stances I had before opening it up. Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Aug 15, 2023 |
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Aug 15, 2023 21:13
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Punkin Spunkin posted:I liked Schama's Citizens when I was 13 (had a big old hardcover) but the fact that it's reactionary hysterical bullshit really makes me hesitant to actually recommend it to anybody even if you preempt it with a disclaimer about its politics. Is there anything about it you think is factually incorrect, or do you just not like the implied conclusions? Edit: To be clear, I haven't read the book, so this isn't a rhetorical question. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Aug 15, 2023 |
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Aug 15, 2023 21:38
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The scholarship isn't terrible or anything and the positions expressed by Schama won't shock anyone familiar with the right-of-centre Anglo historiography of the Revolution, but it's quite priggish and vastly less interested in the ideas, feelings, allegiances, humanity, sincerely or insincerely held political ideals, etc. of the revolutionaries than in the luridness of the period's excesses as compared to a borderline dishonestly rosy assessment of Louis XVI's regime. I don't think it's unfair to say that an English royalist's wholesale condemnation of the Revolution is not a great starting point to a serious-minded attempt at understanding it.
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Aug 16, 2023 00:26
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My second book after Peter McPhee’s short introduction was Jeremy Popkin’s A New World Begins, which sticks to the bird’s-eye view so much that it left me with little sense of the personal experience of events. The space given to 1794-1800 is very commendable, though. Anyway, the funny thing is that it’s Eric Hobsbawm’s negativity in The Age of Revolutions that first lured me towards the cynical view of the revolution. lost in postation posted:as compared to a borderline dishonestly rosy assessment of Louis XVI's regime. He's definitely all about emphasizing the positive, but I have to say that the belief in a hopeless backwards stagnant feudal regime feels so dominant that I welcome correctives. FPyat fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Aug 16, 2023 |
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Aug 16, 2023 02:08
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I guess I find it sad that x centuries later there's still an innumerable amount of motherfuckers playing at being Cicero.
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Aug 16, 2023 06:06
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I think I got all the shipments, including the stuff I got myself from the venmo donations. I really cannot express how grateful I am! Yesterday a kid asked if there were any black cowboys, and I showed him The Black West. He didn't have time to read it in my class, but in his language arts test they're testing, and they can read when they're done. He came by my room to grab the book before testing. Really you guys have made my year already, thank you so much!
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Aug 16, 2023 21:54
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Grem posted:I think I got all the shipments, including the stuff I got myself from the venmo donations. I really cannot express how grateful I am! Yesterday a kid asked if there were any black cowboys, and I showed him The Black West. He didn't have time to read it in my class, but in his language arts test they're testing, and they can read when they're done. He came by my room to grab the book before testing. Really you guys have made my year already, thank you so much! This is amazing, thank you goons!
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Aug 16, 2023 21:57
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Grem posted:I think I got all the shipments, including the stuff I got myself from the venmo donations. I really cannot express how grateful I am! Yesterday a kid asked if there were any black cowboys, and I showed him The Black West. He didn't have time to read it in my class, but in his language arts test they're testing, and they can read when they're done. He came by my room to grab the book before testing. Really you guys have made my year already, thank you so much! Are there any public libraries in your area that have used/donated book sales? Those can be really good places to build your collection for fifty cents or a dollar at a time, and they often have bulk discounts or special deals for teachers. Some libraries have them yearly, some quarterly, some monthly. Check your nearby city and county library systems and sites (the sales are often organized by the 'Friends Of' group, so look for those as well). One place to start: https://www.booksalefinder.com/
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Aug 16, 2023 22:06
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FMguru posted:That's great! I will check it out, thank you!
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Aug 16, 2023 22:08
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lost in postation posted:The scholarship isn't terrible or anything and the positions expressed by Schama won't shock anyone familiar with the right-of-centre Anglo historiography of the Revolution, but it's quite priggish and vastly less interested in the ideas, feelings, allegiances, humanity, sincerely or insincerely held political ideals, etc. of the revolutionaries than in the luridness of the period's excesses as compared to a borderline dishonestly rosy assessment of Louis XVI's regime. I don't think it's unfair to say that an English royalist's wholesale condemnation of the Revolution is not a great starting point to a serious-minded attempt at understanding it. I have to admit, reading all the bits about the stillborn pre-Revolutions during the Hundred Years' War in Sumption's quintet makes me want to ask for some books about the French Revolution written from someone who just can't wait to see all these aristos get what's coming to them.
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Aug 16, 2023 22:27
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Grem posted:I think I got all the shipments, including the stuff I got myself from the venmo donations. I really cannot express how grateful I am! Yesterday a kid asked if there were any black cowboys, and I showed him The Black West. He didn't have time to read it in my class, but in his language arts test they're testing, and they can read when they're done. He came by my room to grab the book before testing. Really you guys have made my year already, thank you so much! 
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Aug 16, 2023 23:06
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Rand Brittain posted:I have to admit, reading all the bits about the stillborn pre-Revolutions during the Hundred Years' War in Sumption's quintet makes me want to ask for some books about the French Revolution written from someone who just can't wait to see all these aristos get what's coming to them. Georges Lefebvre kind of fits the bill while remaining rigorous enough that I don't have serious qualms about recommending him (if only as an important step in the development of historical thought about the Revolution). He's certainly got a kind of insight into the complex resentments, fears and hopes that drove events like the Grande Peur outside the Parisian bourgeois/intellectual circles that you don't find in a lot of authors. e: FPyat posted:He's definitely all about emphasizing the positive, but I have to say that the belief in a hopeless backwards stagnant feudal regime feels so dominant that I welcome correctives. I guess the need for that corrective is less keenly felt in France where even the popular understanding of the late 18th-century Ancien Régime seems to acknowledge that by then it had been profoundly transformed twice over by the Wars of Religion/the end of the house of Valois and Louis XIV's centralising push after the Fronde and had little to do, for all its iniquities, with any sort of feudal dark age. lost in postation fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Aug 17, 2023 |
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Aug 16, 2023 23:09
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Rand Brittain posted:I have to admit, reading all the bits about the stillborn pre-Revolutions during the Hundred Years' War in Sumption's quintet makes me want to ask for some books about the French Revolution written from someone who just can't wait to see all these aristos get what's coming to them. Daniel Guerin's Class Struggle in the First French Republic Bourgeois and Bras Nus 1793-1795 is a work dedicated to class politics during the French revolution.
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Aug 17, 2023 02:20
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Anyone have recommendations for post WW2 Europe and the early cold war, late 40s and maybe early 50s?
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Aug 17, 2023 03:36
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Rand Brittain posted:I have to admit, reading all the bits about the stillborn pre-Revolutions during the Hundred Years' War in Sumption's quintet makes me want to ask for some books about the French Revolution written from someone who just can't wait to see all these aristos get what's coming to them. Chairman Capone pointed out there's a new abrdiged english translation of Jean Jaurès' 6 volume A Socialist History of the French Revolution. Probably fun, although I'm sure there are plenty of contentious claims.
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Aug 17, 2023 15:51
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The Glumslinger posted:Anyone have recommendations for post WW2 Europe and the early cold war, late 40s and maybe early 50s? I enjoyed Applebaum's Iron Curtain but it obviously doesn't have much of anything about the West.
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Aug 17, 2023 17:37
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I haven't read it, but Tony Judt's Postwar is just that. And Mark Mazower's Dark Continent covers the post war decades as well.
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Aug 17, 2023 17:40
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Minenfeld! posted:I haven't read it, but Tony Judt's Postwar is just that. And Mark Mazower's Dark Continent covers the post war decades as well. I read both of these in grad school, they’re both good general overviews but I’d probably go with Judt for a basic decently comprehensive survey.
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Aug 17, 2023 18:42
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Thanks, Postwar seems like a great fit for my interests
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Aug 17, 2023 20:39
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Postwar was a really important book for me growing up. I came across it in late high school as I was first beginning to develop a deeper interest in history and it was one of those event books that everybody talks about in the midbrow periodicals so I picked it up. Tony Judt is a great writer and I think that alone makes it worth the read. His "cancellation" by marty peretz and co. after writing essays for the new republic broaching the possibility of a one state solution to the israel-palestine issue also played a weirdly important role in my political development. I think one flaw is that it is written pre 2008, pre trump / populist outburst / whatever you want to call our current political environment, so some of the undercurrents of postwar history that people pay more attention to now are underserved. And of course certain topics are now easier to research- for example east german archives opening and so forth. I'd be very interested for other recommendations that people have for post war Europe. Another book that is more global and focuses more on the 70s era to the present that I found similar in spirit is "Empire of Democracy: The Remaking of the West Since the Cold War." plogo fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Aug 17, 2023 |
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Aug 17, 2023 21:21
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Reading Postwar was the moment that pushed me over the edge in leading me to abandon considering myself a communist. There’s a stage of realization you have to go through in discovering that there are individuals among the enemy that aren’t as evil as you thought they were, and part of that was reading non-Marxist history.
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Aug 18, 2023 01:45
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