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At 500 points you could take a single Cerastus Knight and its a valid army, which yeah I imagine other 500 point lists would have serious trouble with.
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Aug 17, 2023 14:13
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500 points only really works if the players work together while listbuilding to create forces that are somewhat balanced against each other. Even then it's usually still pretty skewed.
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Aug 17, 2023 14:15
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Are any of the combat patrols reckoned to be much worse than the others? I know the AdMech box is much fewer points than some others, but did they address that with the special rules?
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Aug 17, 2023 14:21
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Thousand sons notoriously hate their combat patrol, but I dont know how its rules hold up.
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Aug 17, 2023 14:35
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Ugh, yeah, have fun playing; introductory 40k as the Tzangore faction.
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Aug 17, 2023 14:41
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Jack B Nimble posted:Are any of the combat patrols reckoned to be much worse than the others? I know the AdMech box is much fewer points than some others, but did they address that with the special rules? I don't know that there's much analysis of the various patrols but they definitely vary in power pretty widely and I don't think that any of them have extra rules to compensate. Closest I can think of is that the Space Marine patrol doesn't have any Battleline units so they have to spend a CP for sticky objectives but that feels more like insult to injury rather than compensation to me. Match ups really seem to make a huge difference too, I've only played Grey Knights into Tyranids and Space Marines and while I'm 0 for 3 those two match ups are wildly different; 'nids have a hard time killing GKs but have so much loving board presence it's almost impossible to out-scenario them and taking out all their numbers is really challenging. I'm getting closer and closer buying another Patrol box already (I should wait until I get my army at least basecoated but isn't that the very essence of wargaming) just to see how differently they play.
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Aug 17, 2023 14:45
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Playing against the Eldar CP's functionally unkillable wraithlord and Farseer/Guardian/Starcannon blob overwatching on a 4+ for free every turn on top of fate dice felt pretty bad tbh
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Aug 17, 2023 15:05
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I'd thought the specific Combat Patrol game mode made each box into a bespoke list with special rules, so that they were balanced? So you could give the weaker boxes special buffs?
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Aug 17, 2023 15:23
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That was the stated intent and theory but I'd imagine saying you're doing it and actually doing it are pretty different. It sounds to me like it's mostly fine for buying a box of stuff, building it and getting in some quick games which is probably good enough, maybe if they revisit it they could hammer it into something more long term.
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Aug 17, 2023 15:27
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Jack B Nimble posted:I'd thought the specific Combat Patrol game mode made each box into a bespoke list with special rules, so that they were balanced? So you could give the weaker boxes special buffs? Most of the boxes were put together long before Combat Patrol was even conceived of as a separate game mode. They weren't designed to be balanced at all. The Necrons one was so bad, they gave us a new one on paper at the start of 10th because the boxed one would be virtually unusable. Thousand Sons is one of the worst. 20 Tzaangor, 5 Scarabs , and an Infernal Master that can't embed in either of them. Necrons is very strong, thanks to the Doomstalker. It's an answer for anything that few Patrols have an answer for themselves. Eldar is also very strong, for similar reasons. rantmo posted:Yeah that's the bit that they're just not going to be able to overcome without releasing new boxes for every faction, which would be a pain in the rear end but also not the worst idea in the world. Can almost guarantee there's going to be a new Combat Patrol box with each new codex. Or close to it. Devorum fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Aug 17, 2023 |
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Aug 17, 2023 15:41
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Devorum posted:Most of the boxes were put together long before Combat Patrol was even conceived of as a separate game mode. They weren't designed to be balanced at all. Yeah that's the bit that they're just not going to be able to overcome without releasing new boxes for every faction, which would be a pain in the rear end but also not the worst idea in the world.
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Aug 17, 2023 15:51
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I asked this in the painting thread, but does anyone have any space Sicarian Ruststalker heads (the dome ones that look like Pit Droid heads) spare to buy or trade? I have a constant need for them and they're starting to get hard to find on ebay and bits sites.
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Aug 17, 2023 16:02
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Yeah I guess I just thought they were going to use custom data sheets or something to make them more balanced. Or special rules like off board fire support, or respawning units when they're destroyed l, etc. Because like everyone is saying, the boxes were never meant to fight each other. I mean, doesn't the Dark Angels dreadnaught have a Redemptor Dreadnaught??
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Aug 17, 2023 16:44
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I mean, many of the datasheets are modified but mostly by way of removing/simplifying but they can't go too too far with it or they lose the utility of mode being a useful introduction to full 40k.
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Aug 17, 2023 16:50
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Jack B Nimble posted:Yeah I guess I just thought they were going to use custom data sheets or something to make them more balanced. Or special rules like off board fire support, or respawning units when they're destroyed l, etc. Because like everyone is saying, the boxes were never meant to fight each other. And inceptors, who are supposed to be ran as bolt inceptors for the combat patrol
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Aug 17, 2023 16:50
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smug jeebus posted:Playing against the Eldar CP's functionally unkillable wraithlord and Farseer/Guardian/Starcannon blob overwatching on a 4+ for free every turn on top of fate dice felt pretty bad tbh I've played my
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Aug 17, 2023 17:02
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Devorum posted:Can almost guarantee there's going to be a new Combat Patrol box with each new codex. Or close to it. I loving hope so
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Aug 17, 2023 17:19
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I know they explicitly want to make vehicles tougher and more desirable to play, which is why meltas didn't get a proportional S increase to keep up, but it seems like several armies like Sisters and Death Guard and so on really struggle with them. Would bumping meltas up to S10 or 12 to keep on par with lascannons really make vehicles so much worse?
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Aug 17, 2023 17:23
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:I know they explicitly want to make vehicles tougher and more desirable to play, which is why meltas didn't get a proportional S increase to keep up, but it seems like several armies like Sisters and Death Guard and so on really struggle with them. Would bumping meltas up to S10 or 12 to keep on par with lascannons really make vehicles so much worse? The suggestion I've seen that I like was making melta +strength alongside +damage so it's easier to wound when it gets in close. The problem is accessibility - there are enough full meltagun units that making them better boosts those units up a lot, but leaving them toned down keeps a single meltagun in a squad pretty anemic.
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Aug 17, 2023 17:30
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:I know they explicitly want to make vehicles tougher and more desirable to play, which is why meltas didn't get a proportional S increase to keep up, but it seems like several armies like Sisters and Death Guard and so on really struggle with them. Would bumping meltas up to S10 or 12 to keep on par with lascannons really make vehicles so much worse? Keep them the same str but add anti-vehicle 4+ for the regular melta and 3+ for the multi
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Aug 17, 2023 17:34
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Spanish Manlove posted:Keep them the same str but add anti-vehicle 4+ for the regular melta and 3+ for the multi That would work if there weren't units that could take enough Meltas to delete 2 Questoris Knights in a single turn with those rules. 3 Retributor squads could table any vehicle army. It's a common GW issue with a lot of weapons.
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Aug 17, 2023 18:45
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Devorum posted:That would work if there weren't units that could take enough Meltas to delete 2 Questoris Knights in a single turn with those rules. Good. gently caress imperial knights.
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Aug 17, 2023 18:58
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:I know they explicitly want to make vehicles tougher and more desirable to play, which is why meltas didn't get a proportional S increase to keep up, but it seems like several armies like Sisters and Death Guard and so on really struggle with them. Would bumping meltas up to S10 or 12 to keep on par with lascannons really make vehicles so much worse? Many of the dedicated melta units do get access to wound rerolls to help with this. Sometimes it's built-in (Eradicators & Retributors) and other times it's linked to the transport they'll likely be in (Fire Dragons & Retributors). It sucks for all of the other melta weapons without that crutch, though.
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Aug 17, 2023 19:02
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Spanish Manlove posted:Good. gently caress imperial knights. Give Railguns anti-titanic 
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Aug 17, 2023 19:51
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Yeah, I think that's the real issue with weapon design in 40k: if some units have one of something per five or ten models, and other units have every model equipped with it, that's just a very different prospect. Like, even a Devastator squad is 4 of them, not 5 and certainly not 10.
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Aug 17, 2023 20:08
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Good news, with all units having their own snowflake meltaguns GW can just pick and choose where to make adjustments.
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Aug 17, 2023 20:16
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I actually doubt melta would be that oppressive even if it got str 12 or anti-vehicle 4+ or something. For one thing, Grav already has anti-vehicle 2+ now, 3 shots a gun at damage 3 too, and thats not breaking the game in half. (Thats probably a function of AP1, though.) With melta down to 18 range, it can no longer do full damage out of reserves or deep strike - which is going to pretty significantly curtail its performance. It was that range nerf, plus now needing 5s to wound anything bigger than a Rhino, plus Eradicators losing double shooting, that just effectively removed melta from the game for the time being. I think they should consider removing at least one of those nerfs, at the very least for Sisters who have no other anti-tank in an edition where everyone needs it.
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Aug 17, 2023 22:26
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After a decade-long break, I'm trying to get back into 40k. I was never that deep into it in the first place, though. I have a few questions. First, which rules do I need to start playing? In the old days, you bought the big central rule book, a codex, and then you built your army from a point budget. There seems to be more options now. I found some index cards for the various armies with unit stats and rules, but no point costs. What's going on here? Second, I bought some models (custodes, while my wife got harlequins) and a whole bunch of painting supplies. Obviously, since I'm only five models in, my results are still awful, but I remember the basics from my last attempt, and I've watched videos and read guides and so on. Is there a place I can get feedback and suggestions for how to improve? There is a painting thread in this forum, but it seems to mostly be really experienced painters sharing their work, and I'm wondering if there's a better place to discuss basics. My immediate goal is to have a (small) fully painted army (to a tolerable standard) and play a full game. My previous efforts never quite managed to reach that level. I have an acquaintance who has been in the hobby for years and has a huge Imperial Guard tank army, so it's just up to me to get an army assembled so he can crush it.
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Aug 17, 2023 22:38
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Athas posted:After a decade-long break, I'm trying to get back into 40k. I was never that deep into it in the first place, though. I have a few questions. So the core rules are free and available here and the points are in the Munitorium Field Manual document. All the actual army rules and stats can be found in the various indexes which are all here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/warhammer-40000-downloads/
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Aug 17, 2023 22:49
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Coldbird posted:I actually doubt melta would be that oppressive even if it got str 12 or anti-vehicle 4+ or something. For one thing, Grav already has anti-vehicle 2+ now, 3 shots a gun at damage 3 too, and that’s not breaking the game in half. (That’s probably a function of AP1, though.) Ministorum Meltas all get +6" range. Give me 12" inferno pistols on Sephyrim, you cowards.
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Aug 17, 2023 23:37
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Spanish Manlove posted:gently caress imperial knights. if you can fill any of those exhaust ports more power to ya
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Aug 18, 2023 01:16
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you can't spell "Throne Mechanicum" without, etc.
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Aug 18, 2023 01:40
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Jack B Nimble posted:I'd thought the specific Combat Patrol game mode made each box into a bespoke list with special rules, so that they were balanced? So you could give the weaker boxes special buffs? rantmo posted:I don't know that there's much analysis of the various patrols but they definitely vary in power pretty widely and I don't think that any of them have extra rules to compensate. Closest I can think of is that the Space Marine patrol doesn't have any Battleline units so they have to spend a CP for sticky objectives but that feels more like insult to injury rather than compensation to me. Match ups really seem to make a huge difference too, I've only played Grey Knights into Tyranids and Space Marines and while I'm 0 for 3 those two match ups are wildly different; 'nids have a hard time killing GKs but have so much loving board presence it's almost impossible to out-scenario them and taking out all their numbers is really challenging. I'm getting closer and closer buying another Patrol box already (I should wait until I get my army at least basecoated but isn't that the very essence of wargaming) just to see how differently they play. Each faction has special rules and strategems to compensate for the differences in points the combat patrol boxes have. The game uses all the same 40k rules, but has different datasheets with different keywords and abilities than the same units have in 40k. It is far from perfect though. I have guard, which I think is the lowest points? However, I can bring back my infantry units for 1cp, and my orders apply to all my units, to name two of many pretty decent abilities. I think that works well and plays super thematically. I've got an officer and heavy guns towards the back, and I'm just directing waves of infanty into problems.
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Aug 18, 2023 02:08
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Virtual Russian posted:Each faction has special rules and strategems to compensate for the differences in points the combat patrol boxes have. One of the problems is that the stratagems and rules can't really fix the problems with some of the patrols, especially in terms of board presence. I'm not sure the missions are helping either but I'm also not sure how you could build a 40k mission at that scale that didn't exacerbate such fundamental problems. Virtual Russian posted:I have guard, which I think is the lowest points? Second lowest at 385. Deathwatch is only worth 335.
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Aug 18, 2023 03:05
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Is there a good way to post lists? DKoK One (945 points) Astra Militarum Incursion (1000 points) Combined Regiment CHARACTER Death Korps Marshal (60 points) Warlord 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power weapon BATTLELINE Death Korps of Krieg (130 points) 2x Death Korps Watchmaster 1x Laspistol 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power weapon 18x Death Korps Trooper 18x Close combat weapon 1x Death Korps Medi-pack 15x Lasgun 2x Meltagun 1x Plasma gun 1x Vox-caster Death Korps of Krieg (130 points) 2x Death Korps Watchmaster 1x Chainsword 1x Plasma pistol 18x Death Korps Trooper 18x Close combat weapon 1x Death Korps Medi-pack 1x Flamer 15x Lasgun 1x Plasma gun 1x Sniper rifle 1x Vox-caster Death Korps of Krieg (130 points) 2x Death Korps Watchmaster 1x Laspistol 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power weapon 18x Death Korps Trooper 18x Close combat weapon 1x Death Korps Medi-pack 2x Grenade launcher 15x Lasgun 1x Plasma gun 1x Vox-caster OTHER DATASHEETS Armoured Sentinels (140 points) 2x Armoured Sentinel 2x Close combat weapon 2x Hunter-killer missile 2x Militarum multi-laser 2x Sentinel chainsaw Earthshaker Carriage Battery (80 points) 1x Battery close combat weapons 1x Earthshaker cannon Earthshaker Carriage Battery (80 points) 1x Battery close combat weapons 1x Earthshaker cannon Leman Russ Battle Tank (195 points) 1x Armoured tracks 2x Heavy flamer 1x Heavy stubber 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Lascannon 1x Leman Russ battle cannon How's this?
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Aug 18, 2023 04:41
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Suggestion - The carriage battery is a forgeworld only offering - though you can get proxies for it. If you're just starting out, I would suggest avoiding forgeworld units, as they're likely to be dropped from future codexes. I would try to stick to units that are on standard indexes, so the units you buy now are still playable in future editions.
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Aug 18, 2023 06:27
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Tangy Zizzle posted:Suggestion - Big gun cool!! Okay replace it with.. field ordinance batteries maybe?
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Aug 18, 2023 06:38
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Athas posted:After a decade-long break, I'm trying to get back into 40k. I was never that deep into it in the first place, though. I have a few questions. lol I posted a giant OP about this...
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Aug 18, 2023 07:08
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Okay feeling better about this! DKoK One (980 points) Astra Militarum Incursion (1000 points) Combined Regiment CHARACTER Platoon Command Squad (75 points) 1x Platoon Commander Warlord 1x Close combat weapon 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power weapon Enhancement: Grand Strategist 4x Veteran Guardsman 4x Close combat weapon 4x Lasgun 4x Laspistol 1x Master Vox 1x Medi-pack 1x Regimental Standard 1x Veteran Heavy Weapons Team 1x Close combat weapon 1x Heavy bolter 1x Laspistol BATTLELINE Death Korps of Krieg (130 points) 2x Death Korps Watchmaster 1x Laspistol 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power weapon 18x Death Korps Trooper 18x Close combat weapon 1x Death Korps Medi-pack 15x Lasgun 2x Meltagun 1x Plasma gun 1x Vox-caster Death Korps of Krieg (130 points) 2x Death Korps Watchmaster 1x Chainsword 1x Plasma pistol 18x Death Korps Trooper 18x Close combat weapon 1x Death Korps Medi-pack 1x Flamer 15x Lasgun 1x Plasma gun 1x Sniper rifle 1x Vox-caster Death Korps of Krieg (130 points) 2x Death Korps Watchmaster 1x Laspistol 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power weapon 18x Death Korps Trooper 18x Close combat weapon 1x Death Korps Medi-pack 2x Grenade launcher 15x Lasgun 1x Plasma gun 1x Vox-caster OTHER DATASHEETS Armoured Sentinels (210 points) 3x Armoured Sentinel 2x Close combat weapon 2x Hunter-killer missile 2x Militarum multi-laser 2x Sentinel chainsaw Leman Russ Battle Tank (195 points) 1x Armoured tracks 2x Heavy flamer 1x Heavy stubber 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Lascannon 1x Leman Russ battle cannon Wyvern (110 points) 1x Armoured tracks 1x Heavy bolter 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Wyvern quad stormshard mortar
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Aug 18, 2023 07:23
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if you're gonna bring armored sentinels, always lascannon. they hunt big game and it's the only relevant option. scout sentinels are also a really good unit to have, too, and can work with lascannon, plasma, or flamers. the weapons are easy to magnetize. you probably want another infantry character, just for more orders. DK marshals are very good, as is ursula, but another command squad is fine. long-term you're gonna want leontus. you're going to want a demolisher as your first leman russ, probably played as a tank commander. it does better as a push unit, it just does more damage to everything, and as a tank commander, can give itself orders. the weapon is not hard to magnetize. speaking of, generally go all flamers on a russ for overwatch, or else switch for more useful guns (pretty much anything else). heavy bolters are probably the iffiest choice after flamers and you only want plasma cannon on a non-commander demolisher. mortar heavy weapon squads are more efficient than wyverns. wyverns are cool but not so cool it's a good idea to pay twice as much for so much less gun.
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Aug 18, 2023 08:52
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