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wasn't there a bunch of israeli intel people who just so happened to be videoing the towers on that day? it seems pretty obvious that a lot of people knew or suspected something
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Aug 17, 2023 05:17
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Horizon Burning posted:wasn't there a bunch of israeli intel people who just so happened to be videoing the towers on that day? it seems pretty obvious that a lot of people knew or suspected something in addition to the 'dancing israelis' seen on a garage roof in nj filming the collapse and partying there was also an israeli artist group given permission to do an installation on 91st floor just below where the plane hit the north tower weeks later leading to specualtion that they planted bombs or some sort of guidance for the plane to hit etc.
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Aug 17, 2023 05:25
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are you telling me that there were jewish people in new york??
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Aug 17, 2023 05:26
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new jersey actually plz read
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Aug 17, 2023 05:30
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Real hurthling! posted:in addition to the 'dancing israelis' seen on a garage roof in nj filming the collapse and partying there was also an israeli artist group given permission to do an installation on 91st floor just below where the plane hit the north tower weeks later leading to specualtion that they planted bombs or some sort of guidance for the plane to hit etc. wasn't the artist group thing some really bizarre event that got overshadowed by 9/11? like, they kept trying to get access to secure areas by posing as painting salespeople or something?
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Aug 17, 2023 05:42
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Real hurthling! posted:in addition to the 'dancing israelis' seen on a garage roof in nj filming the collapse and partying there was also an israeli artist group given permission to do an installation on 91st floor just below where the plane hit the north tower weeks later leading to specualtion that they planted bombs or some sort of guidance for the plane to hit etc. Are you confusing this with the Mossad "Art Student" ring that was busted around the same time? Iirc that even made the papers, they were deported to Israel and made some comments in the Israeli press in recent years.
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Aug 17, 2023 05:45
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Horizon Burning posted:wasn't the artist group thing some really bizarre event that got overshadowed by 9/11? like, they kept trying to get access to secure areas by posing as painting salespeople or something? That might have been the Art Student ring, it's unclear what they were trying to do other than they were being investigated by the FBI and arrests were made in 2002 American authorities today revealed they have arrested and deported dozens of young Israelis they suspect were part of a giant spy ring. Up to 120 Israelis have been arrested since early last year after claiming they were art students and trying to gain access to sensitive government buildings. The Israelis included the son of a two-star general, a former bodyguard to the head of the country's army and one who had manned a Patriot missile defence battery before they came to America. A report from the Drug En forcement Agency, first revealed by a French intelligence website and confirmed by the agency, told how the fake students targeted sites including the air force base where B-1 bombers are repaired. Investigators also found that a female art student went to an Environmental Protection Agency worker's Denver home to sell paintings and returned later to photograph the house. The arrests came despite the increasingly close relationship between Israel and theUS, with America giving its backing to prime minister Ariel Sharon's aggressive policy to wards the Palestinians. The DEA report said the supposed students' activities were at the very least suspicious. The Immigration and Naturalisation Service said the Israelis were deported on charges that they worked illegally. None were charged with spying, but their arrests came after warnings from intelligence agencies that Israelis were "trying to bypass facility security and enter federal buildings". The report said some admitted having served in Israeli military intelligence or the "explosives ordnance" unit. Haaretz - It could be the biggest espionage scandal of the century, or the greatest journalistic non-starter in many a decade, but it's clear that the story of the Israeli art students in New York - dozens of alleged spies living in the United States - refuses to die down. Anyone who believes the story says that everything is accurately documented and confirmed, and that only a conspiracy on the part of the U.S. administration - which is desperate to keep the affair quiet, partly out of shame and partly because of its warm relations with Israel - is keeping the affair out of the spotlight of public discussion. Those who repudiate the affair say it is baseless, just another unfounded urban legend that has taken on a life of its own on various marginal Internet sites. Either way, the story of the Israeli spies is alive and kicking. The most recent mention of the affair came last week in the highly respected Internet magazine, Salon.com, which recapped the main points of the scandal and even added some new details of its own. The official Israeli response was the same as ever: "Nonsense," they say. The outline of the scandal is the same wherever it is published, with the more respectable journals taking more care over the details and relying more on reports and documented evidence, while the more marginal publications pile on spurious details and compare the scandal to the great conspiracies of the past. According to reports of the scandal, around 120 young Israeli citizens, posing as art students and selling paintings door-to-door, have been arrested and deported from the United States. The door-to-door sale of art works, it is claimed, was a front for a sophisticated spy ring: the students would turn up at homes and offices - especially at buildings housing federal authorities and military bases, and even went to the homes of those employed in these offices. The students attempted to form friendships with federal employees, photograph their offices, tap their phone lines and infiltrate their databases. It is also claimed that the spy ring kept tabs on Arab targets inside the United States, including Arab Americans who were in contact with the Al-Qaida network. According to some speculations, the Israelis' intelligence work enabled the spy ring to know in advance of the planned terror attack on September 11, without lifting a finger to prevent it. Beware students selling art There is one source for all these stories and it is not an unreliable one. The source is the 60-page draft of an internal report by the intelligence division of the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA). Thedraft was leaked to the media and its existence was confirmed by spokesmen from the DEA and the Justice Department, which is responsible for running the DEA. But confirming that the report exists is not the same as verifying its contents. According to the report's author, whose identity has never been published, DEA officials identified an increase in the number of incidents in which young Israelis, claiming to be art students, tried to sell them works of art. "It is entirely possible," said the report, "that this is an organized intelligence-gathering activity." A warning was sent out by the federal anti-espionage office to other federal agencies in March 2001,warning them to be wary of students trying to sell them art works and gain entry to federal facilities. The document records several encounters between DEA officials and Israelis all over the United States. In one incident, the report documents an attempt to gain entry to the Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma City, where the AWACS spy plane and the B-1 bombers are serviced. What is really keeping this story alive is the claim of a link between the Israeli "students" and Israeli intelligence. The original report, as well as subsequent media reports, say that many of the young Israelis arrested served in the IDF's Intelligence Corps and were involved in operating electronic bugging equipment; one even said he was the son of a senior Israel Defense Forces officer. It took just one small leap to turn this into a conspiracy, whereby all the Israelis arrested were in the pay of the Mossad. The report also documents how those arrested in the U.S. were connected to Israeli companies that had provided telephony services for American companies and U.S. federal authorities, while also claiming the Israeli companies should be investigated, in case they had installed "back door" services, which would allow some future operative to access the American companies' systems. The DEA, it is claimed, purchased communications equipment worth some $100 million from Israeli companies five years ago, and that is said to be the reason for the widespread Israeli activity around this agency. One paranoid official Even though the claims made by the DEA and the various journals that have delved into the affair sound convincing and well-based, so do the Israeli counter-claims. Firstly, say anonymous Israeli representatives in the United States, it is true that more than 100 young Israelis were arrested in the U.S. following the events of September 11 - all of them for immigration and visa infringements. Most of those arrested were deported after being charged by the U.S. immigration service. The sources also admit that many Israelis are currently working illegally in the U.S., occasionally as door-to-door art salespersons. As far as Israel is concerned, this is the only explanation for the affair, and anything more is just a fabrication based on the original reports, which in itself is based on the paranoia of one government official. There is also an explanation for the military background of the arrested Israelis: every Israeli has a military background, often in the various intelligence units. But this is not easy to explain to the Americans, who see the Israelis as "former intelligence officers" or "retired officers." As for the supposed connection between the young Israelis and various high-tech companies, all the companies mentioned strongly deny any involvement. Those who deny that there is a spy ring in action also ask why none of the Israelis arrested was ever charged with espionage-related crimes. Why were their cases handled by the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), rather than the FBI, which is responsible for investigating spies? And the main question - why did Israel chose the DEA as its espionage target? Those who back the spy theory say that because the DEA is not usually involved in security matters it is easier to infiltrate, and that the DEA's war on the international drug trade has provided it a wealth of information that could be useful to Israel in a wide range of areas. But while each side of the argument is sticking to its guns, without either party presenting clear evidence that could clear up the affair once and for all, the media is carrying out its own merry dance around a fascinating spy story - whether it's true or not. The first mention of a mass arrest of Israeli art students on suspicion of involvement in spying was on Fox News on December 12, 2001. The dramatic report stated that around 60 Israelis had been arrested for immigration offenses, but were suspected of spying against the United States, and added that some of those arrested were members of the Israeli military. The report also stated that some of those arrested had failed lie-detector tests. Instead of raising a storm, however, Fox's story slowly died away and was only briefly reported in the international press. Three months later, however, the affair came back to life, this time on a French Internet site, Intelligence Online. The story was immediately picked up by Le Monde. This time, the reporters claimed to have the entire DEA report, and the number of people arrested climbed to 120. At this stage, the American media also woke up to the story. News agencies based their reports of the story on a French Internet site and on the official U.S. reaction. The Justice Department confirmed that it had investigated the alleged connection between Israeli students and anti-American espionage; the DEA confirmed that it had prepared a draft report, but did not say what had become of it; the FBI said that it had not received any complaint relating to spying by Israeli students. The New York Times, according to sources in Washington, looked into the affair but, having concluded that it lacked a suitable factual base, decided not to write about it. The Washington Post, on the other hand, did publish an article, but cast doubt on the veracity of the affair. Post reporters found that the report was written by a "disgruntled [DEA] employee," who was upset that his claims of Israeli espionage were not being treated seriously. Even this report was not enough to finally kill off the affair. Two weeks later, the New York Jewish weekly, Forward, published a report connecting the spy affair with the arrest in New Jersey, on September 11, of five Israelis whose behavior was defined as suspicious. The five were employed by a moving company and did not have valid work permits. According to Forward, the FBI concluded that the five were on a spy mission on behalf of the Mossad, and that the moving company was nothing more than a front. This story also died out quietly. The final round of publications started last week with the publication of the art student affair in Salon.com, which repeated all the known details of the affair. It even added a claim that the spy ring was active in more than 40 cities across the U.S., and included offices belonging to the secret service, the FBI and the U.S. military. Now the story is coming to life once more, with news agencies and at least one national television station regurgitating all the details. The American public will continue to be divided over the truth behind the so-called spy ring, with some believing that the original DEA report was the work of a problematic employee and others convinced that shadowy government officials are involved in covering up the exposure of one of the largest spy rings ever to operate on American soil. Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 05:48 on Aug 17, 2023 |
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Aug 17, 2023 05:46
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Frosted Flake posted:Are you confusing this with the Mossad "Art Student" ring that was busted around the same time? Iirc that even made the papers, they were deported to Israel and made some comments in the Israeli press in recent years. im refering to the group "Gelatin" that were featured in the nyt in august 2001 for their strange, building-modifying art projects on the 91st floor and all-access security clearance to the tower.
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Aug 17, 2023 06:06
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looked it up, they were from austria not israel so yes i was conflating it i suppose. dunno how i got the wires crossed
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Aug 17, 2023 06:12
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As If He Knew: Prophetic Work of Sculptor Killed on 9/11 On September 11, 2001, sculptor Michael Richards was working in his studio in the World Trade Center when a plane hit the floor he was on and killed him. After one of his works was tracked down, many started to believe Richards foreshadowed his own death, because it was a sculpture of himself, his body pierced by dozens of airplanes. Elena Wolf has the story, narrated by Anna Rice. The New York artist was one of 15 selected to participate in the World Views residency program hosted by the Lower Manhattan Cultural Council (LMCC), in partnership with the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. The residency provided artists with 24-hour access to shared studios in Tower One of the World Trade Center. Richards often worked overnight on the 92nd floor of the building. He did so on the night of Sept. 10, 2001, and was still working the next morning when the first plane hit Tower One. Richards was one of the nearly 3,000 people who died in the World Trade Center terrorist attacks on Sept. 11 and the only artist participating in the World Views residency to perish that day. Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 06:18 on Aug 17, 2023 |
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Aug 17, 2023 06:16
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gently caress kind of artist has a studio in the world trade center
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Aug 17, 2023 10:27
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Frosted Flake posted:That might have been the Art Student ring, it's unclear what they were trying to do other than they were being investigated by the FBI and arrests were made in 2002 back around 2009-10 this actually happened to me. I was working for a very, very small intl shipping company in Portland , Oregon area and a couple people barged in trying to sell their artwork for us to put on display and they claimed to be students. We kicked them out pretty quickly. Not sure if they were Israeli or not since I don’t recall other than my boss being immediately pissed off. it was a small building and the other known tenants were: -owner of local McDonald’s franchise -army recruiting office it could just be a common scam these spy groups repeated or vice versa.
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Aug 17, 2023 12:45
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Frosted Flake posted:As If He Knew: Prophetic Work of Sculptor Killed on 9/11 blessing in disguise; he went out being known as "michael richards? like kramer? haha i love that guy!"
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Aug 17, 2023 12:50
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pandy fackler has issued a correction as of 19:25 on Mar 22, 2024 |
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Aug 17, 2023 13:25
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pandy fackler posted:every single person actively in my life who ive ever heard talking about it unquestioningly believes bush did 911 its just a question of exactly how it went down. and im not surrounded by conspiracy theorists or anything most of them are mostly normies to my knowledge. some of them are like friends parents and older coworkers. its pretty wild! yeah it seems like daily show type liberals are pretty likely to uncritically believe the official telling of the thing, and basically everyone else agrees that some extraordinarily hinky poo poo went down. it's sorta the same thing with JFK, the only people that think the warren commission did a good job either directly materially benefit from it or are just really emotionally invested in the idea that our institutions are all on the up and up
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Aug 17, 2023 13:49
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pandy fackler posted:every single person actively in my life who ive ever heard talking about it unquestioningly believes bush did 911 its just a question of exactly how it went down. and im not surrounded by conspiracy theorists or anything most of them are mostly normies to my knowledge. some of them are like friends parents and older coworkers. its pretty wild! most people I've ever talked to about 9/11 were cognizant of and agreed with the idea that the US knew something was going to happen and failed to stop it due to bureaucratic infighting between the CIA, FBI, etc - the Looming Tower thesis. but "Bush did 9/11" is a bridge too far. I get it, it's much easier to accept into your existing narrative framework of the world that the mighty US intelligence agencies did a booboo versus the truth that Western elites are a bunch of psychopathic pedophiles who don't think twice about murdering thousands of their own civilians (so they can have a justification to murder millions more in other countries around the world).
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Aug 17, 2023 13:51
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my bony fealty posted:most people I've ever talked to about 9/11 were cognizant of and agreed with the idea that the US knew something was going to happen and failed to stop it due to bureaucratic infighting between the CIA, FBI, etc - the Looming Tower thesis. but "Bush did 9/11" is a bridge too far. I get it, it's much easier to accept into your existing narrative framework of the world that the mighty US intelligence agencies did a booboo versus the truth that Western elites are a bunch of psychopathic pedophiles who don't think twice about murdering thousands of their own civilians (so they can have a justification to murder millions more in other countries around the world). The US still indirectly created all of the conditions in Saudi, Pakistan, Afghanistan and the Arab world that allowed it to happen - creating animus against America and the means to act out on it with funding, training, equipment, even ideology. The US allowed Wahabist recruiting for their proxy wars in Afghanistan, Bosnia and Chechnya, for example. So either way you slice it, Bush did 9/11 insofar as it was not done for no reason by unknown people with unknown financial and organizational means - the US created and facilitated all of that, even if they meant for it to strike against Pan-Arab or Socialist states. How many of the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaeda people were educated in the west? Even Mohammed Atta was mostly a weirdo architecture student until he stumbled into western networks while living in Germany. Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 14:22 on Aug 17, 2023 |
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Aug 17, 2023 14:16
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yeah the US created the inevitability of 9/11
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Aug 17, 2023 14:21
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"Bush did it" in that they literally planned the attacks and executed them as a false flag always felt like cope to explain away that America was attacked at home, a thing that's supposed to be impossible. But Bush totally did it in the sense that we created the conditions and then intentionally ignored a lot of things.
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Aug 17, 2023 14:23
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need a COG face emote
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Aug 17, 2023 14:25
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I see it as similar to the attacks in Europe and the UK where guys were recruited from there with the knowledge and funding of their intelligence services, sent to Syria and Libya, allowed to travel back and forth, and when the proxy wars ended cut loose. In terms of foreign fighters, extreme ideology and loose weapons being sent to a proxy war, all of the ingredients are there in Ukraine. I suppose the question will be if the far right networks, which have been known about since 2014 even though reporting abruptly stopped last February, will be burned like the Islamists or are seen as more useful over a longer period of time.
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Aug 17, 2023 14:42
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Real hurthling! posted:in addition to the 'dancing israelis' seen on a garage roof in nj filming the collapse and partying there was also an israeli artist group given permission to do an installation on 91st floor just below where the plane hit the north tower weeks later leading to specualtion that they planted bombs or some sort of guidance for the plane to hit etc.  This makes the most sense. At least one person has speculated the artists painted thermite onto the support columns during this time but I would think this unlikely and probably not necessary when they could have it wired more traditionally during routine maintenance by Kroll et al
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Aug 17, 2023 14:49
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Gumball Gumption posted:"Bush did it" in that they literally planned the attacks and executed them as a false flag always felt like cope to explain away that America was attacked at home, a thing that's supposed to be impossible. But Bush totally did it in the sense that we created the conditions and then intentionally ignored a lot of things. I think (without proof as far as i can remember) that there were people within the security establishment (CIA/DIA/etc) who knew what was going to happen on 9/11 and let it play out so they could use the attacks as justification to pursue other global goals.
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Aug 17, 2023 14:57
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It's hard for me to even say something as distant as "the US created the conditions for 9/11" when the letter agencies were smuggling jihadists into the USA and running them out of the Al Khifa Center Like, putting the gun in their hands still makes you directly responsible
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Aug 17, 2023 15:10
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Gumball Gumption posted:"Bush did it" in that they literally planned the attacks and executed them as a false flag always felt like cope to explain away that America was attacked at home, a thing that's supposed to be impossible. But Bush totally did it in the sense that we created the conditions and then intentionally ignored a lot of things. "Kitty History! Just like ours!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-Lvv1f5Qu4
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Aug 17, 2023 15:11
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Aug 17, 2023 15:22
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It's confusing to me what the neocons were doing supporting Islamist movements after 1991, as pan-Arabism didn't seem to be an expanding threat. I realize they still wanted to knock over Iran, Iraq, Libya and Syria, per PNAC, but it seems that outside of Bosnia and Chechnya, they didn't have much use for them until Syria and Libya, a decade after 9/11.
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Aug 17, 2023 16:00
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Frosted Flake posted:It's confusing to me what the neocons were doing supporting Islamist movements after 1991, as pan-Arabism didn't seem to be an expanding threat. I realize they still wanted to knock over Iran, Iraq, Libya and Syria, per PNAC, but it seems that outside of Bosnia and Chechnya, they didn't have much use for them until Syria and Libya, a decade after 9/11. The timing of the conditions is next to impossible to predict, so you have to have options available, simmering on the range, if you like that can be spun up to a roiling boil when the time is right. There were plenty of paths that Qaddafi, Assad, etc, could have taken between the Soviet collapse and the 2010s that would have worked for the US (or at least they would have thought it would work for them, #whomustgo, etc).
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Aug 17, 2023 16:28
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Toph Bei Fong posted:"Kitty History! Just like ours!" while i do quibble a bit here and there, i do think this probably one of the most correct and concise tellings of recent kitty history.
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Aug 17, 2023 17:50
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captainbananas posted:The timing of the conditions is next to impossible to predict, so you have to have options available, simmering on the range, if you like that can be spun up to a roiling boil when the time is right. There were plenty of paths that Qaddafi, Assad, etc, could have taken between the Soviet collapse and the 2010s that would have worked for the US (or at least they would have thought it would work for them, #whomustgo, etc). This jogged my memory and I realized there's a book I'd seen in the footnotes of some policy papers and reports.  Once again proving that people will openly discus "conspiracy theories" when the audience is small enough not to reach the public The U.S. has indirectly intervened in international conflicts on a relatively large scale for decades. Yet little is known about the immediate usefulness or long-term effectiveness of contemporary proxy warfare. In cases when neither direct involvement nor total disengagement are viable, proxy warfare is often the best option, or, rather, the least bad option. Tyrone L. Groh describes the hazards and undesirable aspects of this strategy, as well as how to deploy it effectively. Proxy War explores the circumstances under which indirect warfare works best, how to evaluate it as a policy option, and the possible risks and rewards. Groh offers a fresh look at this strategy, using uncommon and understudied cases to test the concepts presented. These ten case studies investigate and illustrate the different types and uses of proxy war under varying conditions. What arises is a complete theoretical model of proxy warfare that can be applied to a wide range of situations. Proxy war is here to stay and will likely become more common as players on the international stage increasingly challenge U.S. dominance, making it more important than ever to understand how and when to deploy it.
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Aug 17, 2023 18:38
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Dokapon Findom posted:
I've always been skeptical of there being thermite or other poo poo to weaken the support columns because it both seems unnecessary and risks leaving behind hard evidence someone could get ahold of. 4 planes being hijacked, even if they all went into random fields, would have been more than enough casus belli for Bush's purposes, and even if the towers didn't fall, there was still going to be a massive loss of life. Wiring up the buildings seems to be an unnecessary risk with no clear gain.
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Aug 17, 2023 18:41
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That's my thinking as well. From what we know, the expectation among the Hamburg Cell was just that very visible symbols of American power - finance, military and government - would be damaged, not destroyed outright. From reading NIST, even if the WTC did not collapse entirely, everybody above the impact site would be eventually killed by fires before they could be put out, and likely the buildings demolished. Local collapse was inevitable, it's just that the height of impact and construction of the buildings meant that the local collapse would trigger a larger structural failure. The FDNY had no feasible means of actually fighting the fires and hadn't even turned on the pump system and checked standpipes before the collapse. At best, they might have been able to save people below the impact sites only.   
Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 18:59 on Aug 17, 2023 |
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Aug 17, 2023 18:47
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Gumball Gumption posted:"Bush did it" in that they literally planned the attacks and executed them as a false flag always felt like cope to explain away that America was attacked at home, a thing that's supposed to be impossible. But Bush totally did it in the sense that we created the conditions and then intentionally ignored a lot of things. Actually you will find that Bush was in the cockpit with Atta and was replaced by a clone grown in a vat to play out the remaining 7 years in office. Imperfect clone, that's why he talked all hosed up. Bush literally did 9/11 and died as a martyr bringing about the next great caliphate alhamdulilah
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Aug 17, 2023 18:49
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 Considering anyone above the impact points would be dead, and the buildings, for all intents and purposes, destroyed, I think the reaction to a partial collapse and fire that burned out after at least a day would still be the same. It's that the attacks happened, not their result, that made them "a New Pearl Harbour".
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Aug 17, 2023 19:05
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If Bush and Atta ever hung out as friends I could see Bush nicknaming him Atta-Boy
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Aug 17, 2023 19:12
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https://twitter.com/Gracelyn72/status/1692245289715843385?s=20
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Aug 17, 2023 20:16
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blaze of glory trumpists who were being investigated for threats?
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Aug 17, 2023 20:36
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the towers were insured. everyone was in
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Aug 17, 2023 20:44
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Pretty sure that in the last 30 years every single FBI agent who fired their weapon has been found to be justified according to the FBI.
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Aug 17, 2023 20:58
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| # ? May 25, 2024 04:01 |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_al-Bayoumi
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Aug 17, 2023 21:01
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