(Thread IKs:
fatherboxx)
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Why do the mods in here love genocide and putins lovely balls so much? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 17, 2023 19:56
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Xiahou Dun posted:How is a post saying that a genocide isn't happening not genocide denial? That is the meaning of those words. The post you quoted addresses the question you are asking.
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Aug 17, 2023 19:57
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Xiahou Dun posted:How is a post saying that a genocide isn't happening not genocide denial? That is the meaning of those words. Because there is no consensus that a genocide is taking place, thus it's an argument. "Russia's actions don't merit the term 'genocide'" is not the same as "The Holocaust didn't happen". Demanding it be treated as such shuts down any discussion not rabidly pro-Ukrainian and we might as well start using terms like "Ruzzians" and "orcs".
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Aug 17, 2023 19:58
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Xiahou Dun posted:The problem is that you can't have genocide denialists and people against genocide in the same space. It's impossible to be neutral in such a discussion and any attempts to do so inevitably wind up filled with a bunch of polite nazis. the rules as practiced have the awkward consequence of (effectively but unintentionally) requiring that those who see the pattern of bad-faith denialists getting breadcrumbed over and playing a fit-inside-the-rules schtick have to actively refuse to comment on either the patterns or the motive, no matter how obvious, or it's "forums drama" this is made worse by the whole thing that there really is an active community of not just genocide deniers but genocide supporters, the kind who get physically excited by any opportunity to square off about it. lordy it makes poo poo weird. this is not the weirdest it has been by far, poo poo got kinda stabilized by forumbanning or permabanning the absolute worst offenders and more or less ending that time where inaction had fostered this idea that if you wanted to protect your thread you have to stay quiet and fearfully avoid drawing attention, but it still leaves the problem of that it only got rid of those who failed the test of being good enough at reframing the poo poo they do as Just Asking Questions or Challenging The Narrative at least well enough to get their seat at the marketplace of ideas or whatever and then do exactly what happens every time they dont get shown the door all this is to say that what fatherboxx is doing isn't even really wrong, it's just that he has to operate at a level which doesn't determine whether the right thing can actually happen, he can only do the damage control. its 100% outside the pay grade here, it'll either be fixed some other way at some other level or this'll keep going on Lum_ posted:While I disagree vehemently with this post, it isn't "genocide denial" and this pages-long derailing argument demanding it be dealt with as such is utterly tiresome. Part of debating politics maturely involves being able to engage with views you personally disagree with; otherwise you don't want a discussion, you want an echo chamber and there's plenty of that. Yeeah so people have literally tried this with arguing whether or not its ok to purge my race to create a better, higher-IQ society. Apparently to be 'mature' or not want an echo chamber i have to repeatedly display interest in engaging with Views I PersonallY Disagree With, as opposed to saying we need to get to kicking them right the gently caress out, so i'm gonna go with a major popperian paradox "hell no" on this one quote:Because there is no consensus that a genocide is taking place, thus it's an argument. gently caress this poo poo also, by the way, there's no scientifically measurable "consensus" that mints something as Certified Genocidilicious
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Aug 17, 2023 20:01
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Xiahou Dun posted:How is a post saying that a genocide isn't happening not genocide denial? That is the meaning of those words. To paraphrase, because we believe in the meaning of words, and they don't. By giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of the subject, and the discussion. They seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate, confuse and disconcert. They are amusing themselves; the thread, its subject, and its participants are a toy. The IK and mods have given them the right to play. Lemme be clear; the mods, and the IK, could enforce the existing rules against this poo poo. These aren't fresh or falsifiable arguments, and the users are very obviously trolling. They're choosing not to enforce those rules. They're choosing not to moderate, specifically in a manner which favors the trolls promoting genocide denial. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Aug 17, 2023 |
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Aug 17, 2023 20:03
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Xiahou Dun posted:How is a post saying that a genocide isn't happening not genocide denial? That is the meaning of those words. They are saying there is no genocide happening. There is no genocide to deny, only war crimes. It’s the “It’s the just a civilian massacre, not genocide level yet”-argument. Which I imagine they think the thread should engage constructively with, and have a reasonable debate about. If only the thread would calm down and grow up a little.
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Aug 17, 2023 20:03
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Lum_ posted:Because there is no consensus that a genocide is taking place, thus it's an argument. "Russia's actions don't merit the term 'genocide'" is not the same as "The Holocaust didn't happen". Demanding it be treated as such shuts down any discussion not rabidly pro-Ukrainian and we might as well start using terms like "Ruzzians" and "orcs". Consensus doesn't determine reality. And in fact I could get a table at any discussion by just having the dumbest, most reality-warpingly wrong take possible. There isn't an actual debate here.
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Aug 17, 2023 20:04
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Lum_ posted:Because there is no consensus that a genocide is taking place, thus it's an argument. "Russia's actions don't merit the term 'genocide'" is not the same as "The Holocaust didn't happen". Demanding it be treated as such shuts down any discussion not rabidly pro-Ukrainian and we might as well start using terms like "Ruzzians" and "orcs". Quiet a few of the international bodies who deal with genocide and quiet a few researchers on the topic have the position that while investigations are needed to confirm its reaaaaaaaaallly looking like genocide. So yes, there's not a official report that is saying "Yes, this genocide" but that's probably going to come out sooner or later.
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Aug 17, 2023 20:04
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Lum_ posted:In my opinion, posts like the above should be engaged and refuted, not banned; They're not interested in honest engagement. They're just trolling and don't give a poo poo.
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Aug 17, 2023 20:06
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Lum_ posted:Because there is no consensus that a genocide is taking place, thus it's an argument. "Russia's actions don't merit the term 'genocide'" is not the same as "The Holocaust didn't happen". Demanding it be treated as such shuts down any discussion not rabidly pro-Ukrainian and we might as well start using terms like "Ruzzians" and "orcs". Show me the consensus that the Holocaust constitutes a genocide, and do so in a way that does not validate the position that the mass deportation of children and rulings from the Hague constitute a consensus for genocide in Ukraine.
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Aug 17, 2023 20:08
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one of the best ways to figure out that the things happening right now are guaranteed to be remembered as genocidal acts committed by russia is that: if you get the people who most frequently dispute this is a real genocide to comment and make clear their opinion on other acts of clear genocide in other places, like the irish potato famine stuff or the native american adoptions/youth abduction stuff, the majority will argue passionately that these were clear and absolutely unquestionable acts of genocide, and list things russia is doing 100% for sure the equivalent of right now (or worse) as for sure superserious genocide acts of a genocide. just ... only in these other times, when we're talking about not countries i like to carry water for
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Aug 17, 2023 20:11
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Rugz posted:Show me the consensus that the Holocaust constitutes a genocide, and do so in a way that does not validate the position that the mass deportation of children and rulings from the Hague constitute a consensus for genocide in Ukraine. Motive (the Wannsee Declaration), implementation (physical evidence and survivor testimony from death camps), and responsibility (the various Nazi figures in charge of the SS, extermination squads, etc.). Most of this can't be reliably drawn from an active war zone for obvious reasons. Russia's filtration camps and deportation of Ukrainian children are absolutely a war crime (thus the Hague rulings); whether or not they rise to the level of genocide against Ukraine is a matter of very active debate.
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Aug 17, 2023 20:14
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All this genocidal talk is really engaging and I hope that it continues for the rest of the week. Who needs current events in a current events thread?
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Aug 17, 2023 20:15
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Probably lock the thread for a few days and sprinkle some probes around in the meantime
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Aug 17, 2023 20:25
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Lum_ posted:Motive (the Wannsee Declaration), implementation (physical evidence and survivor testimony from death camps), and responsibility (the various Nazi figures in charge of the SS, extermination squads, etc.). Most of this can't be reliably drawn from an active war zone for obvious reasons. So it's impossible to determine if something is a genocide until long after it's completed? Do you have an argument besides "what even is reality, man"?
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Aug 17, 2023 20:31
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For some actual current events from the NY times: Jens Stoltenberg has to walk back Stain Jennson's suggestion that Ukraine might have to cede land in return for NATO accession. quote:Only Ukraine can decide when it might negotiate with Russia to end the war, and what an acceptable solution might be, Jens Stoltenberg, the secretary general of NATO, said on Thursday, clarifying NATO’s stance after his chief of staff, Stian Jenssen, suggested on Tuesday that Ukraine could gain alliance membership in exchange for ceding its Russian-occupied territory. and the first civilian cargo ship has made it to Turkish waters since Russia made the warning: quote:A civilian cargo ship appeared to have safely sailed out of Ukrainian waters in the Black Sea early Thursday after departing the port of Odesa, the first to do so since Russia’s warning last month that it would view vessels traveling to and from Ukrainian ports as a military threat. and Germany gets US approval to buy Arrow 3s from Israel: quote:Israel said Thursday that the U.S. government had approved its request to sell Germany its Arrow 3 missile defense system, setting in motion a $3.5 billion agreement that comes as Germany aims to upgrade its military amid the war in Ukraine.
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Aug 17, 2023 20:34
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Charlz Guybon posted:I want to note this is a phenomenon that really only came to the fore in the 2nd half of the 20th centruy, yet we, having cone of age in that time treat it as axiomatic. Joining as an officer is a choice that a handful of wealthy people make. It is not the same as conscription, and is necessarily less dangerous because officers decide who must take what risk. The soldiers can't make that decision, and if they refuse they are arrested. And that doesn't even touch upon things like the wealthy buying their way out of the draft or acquiring exemptions for their position. Edit: more importantly, the officer class and the investor class are two very different groups of individuals with little overlap. Nenonen posted:All this genocidal talk is really engaging and I hope that it continues for the rest of the week. Who needs current events in a current events thread? Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Aug 17, 2023 |
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Aug 17, 2023 20:37
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Cpt_Obvious posted:more importantly, the officer class and the investor class are two very different groups of individuals with little overlap. This is not my understanding of the modern military, particularly in the US. The relationship between retired officers and defense contractors, for instance, seems to indicate a pretty large center of that venn diagram.
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Aug 17, 2023 20:47
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Jon posted:This is not my understanding of the modern military, particularly in the US. The relationship between retired officers and defense contractors, for instance, seems to indicate a pretty large center of that venn diagram. This is very true, I should have been more specific: Rarely do investors become officers, although the reverse can happen.
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Aug 17, 2023 20:51
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WarpedLichen posted:and the first civilian cargo ship has made it to Turkish waters since Russia made the warning: god that's got to be a sphincter tightening voyage. was a mine free corridor somehow established or did they just risk that russia hadn't laid more since the grain deal fell apart?
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Aug 17, 2023 20:52
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Lum_ posted:Motive (the Wannsee Declaration), implementation (physical evidence and survivor testimony from death camps), and responsibility (the various Nazi figures in charge of the SS, extermination squads, etc.). Why does this constitute a consensus?
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Aug 17, 2023 20:56
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:god that's got to be a sphincter tightening voyage. was a mine free corridor somehow established or did they just risk that russia hadn't laid more since the grain deal fell apart? Has Russia even laid mines in the area at any point? All I am aware of are Ukrainian mines to deter Russian invasion attempts, but those are not on the shipping lanes. And when the grain deal was first made I don't remember there being any clearing operation of Russian mines and I don't think Russian ships have moved that close after the sinking of Moskva and fall of Snake Island made it clear that they should keep a distance. ASM's allow them to close the route from a safe distance if they really wanted, anyway.
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Aug 17, 2023 20:59
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Is it the same ship they stopped recently for a search?
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Aug 17, 2023 21:12
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:god that's got to be a sphincter tightening voyage. was a mine free corridor somehow established or did they just risk that russia hadn't laid more since the grain deal fell apart? I'm not sure if there are dense enough naval mine fields to cordon off Odessa at any point, I would imagine the fear is more about Russian interdiction than mines. Russia recently halted and interrogated a civilian ship in the Black Sea so I would have been afraid of armed men pulling up and stealing all my cargo: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/stop-machine-russia-releases-video-showing-navy-boarding-cargo-ship-black-sea-2023-08-15/ Considering the US backup plan is shipping grain along the Danube, I'm not sure how many other ships would be as ballsy. https://archive.is/wIlN2 Paladinus posted:Is it the same ship they stopped recently for a search? Looks like a different ship to me unless other ships have been stopped for searches. Ship searched was: Palau-flagged Sukru Okan Ship sailing out of Odessa is: Honk Kong-flagged Joseph Schulte WarpedLichen fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Aug 17, 2023 |
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Aug 17, 2023 21:13
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Nenonen posted:Has Russia even laid mines in the area at any point? All I am aware of are Ukrainian mines to deter Russian invasion attempts, but those are not on the shipping lanes. And when the grain deal was first made I don't remember there being any clearing operation of Russian mines and I don't think Russian ships have moved that close after the sinking of Moskva and fall of Snake Island made it clear that they should keep a distance. ASM's allow them to close the route from a safe distance if they really wanted, anyway. probably subjective, but i imagine that taking grain ships out through a minefield in disputed waters is more palatable to neutrals than taking out cargo ships with asm's from stand-off range can't naval mines be air dropped? i feel like i've seen mines listed as a major concern for shipping
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Aug 17, 2023 21:53
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Yep they can be
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Aug 17, 2023 21:53
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I'm not an expert on naval mines but Black Sea is a big place and unless there's some shallows to navigate you would have to throw a lot of mines to seriously disrupt shipping? There are no roads or chokepoints to selectively mine is there? I would imagine the use case for mines is you throw them near ports to block them, not throw mines randomly in sea lanes?
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Aug 17, 2023 21:58
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Joining as an officer is a choice that a handful of wealthy people make. It is not the same as conscription, and is necessarily less dangerous because officers decide who must take what risk. The soldiers can't make that decision, and if they refuse they are arrested. That depends on how high the officer is. Junior officers (lieutenants & captains) tend to have slightly higher casualty rates than the enlisted, even in recent wars. It's only senior officers and higher that are really less dangerous, and even then they still die quite often in peer wars. All these counter-insurgency wars have warped our expectations, because in a peer war, brigadier general moved up to get better command of the unit and then eats a stray artillery shell is not unheard of. For example, we have all the Russian generals who have been getting blown up, and for another example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generals_of_the_British_Empire_who_died_during_the_First_World_War You are definitely right that while officer > investor is a pretty common transition, investor > officer is incredibly rare.
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Aug 17, 2023 21:59
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WarpedLichen posted:I'm not an expert on naval mines but Black Sea is a big place and unless there's some shallows to navigate you would have to throw a lot of mines to seriously disrupt shipping? There are no roads or chokepoints to selectively mine is there? I would imagine the use case for mines is you throw them near ports to block them, not throw mines randomly in sea lanes? You don't actually need that many. Commercial shipping depends on insurance, so you just need to spook the insurers to get everything shut down.
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Aug 17, 2023 21:59
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I imagine mines could also be deployed from subs, which Ukraine has no way to stop.
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Aug 17, 2023 22:06
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WarpedLichen posted:I'm not an expert on naval mines but Black Sea is a big place and unless there's some shallows to navigate you would have to throw a lot of mines to seriously disrupt shipping? There are no roads or chokepoints to selectively mine is there? I would imagine the use case for mines is you throw them near ports to block them, not throw mines randomly in sea lanes? The only choke point is uh... controlled by Turkey... who would take a lot of offense.
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Aug 17, 2023 22:10
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:probably subjective, but i imagine that taking grain ships out through a minefield in disputed waters is more palatable to neutrals than taking out cargo ships with asm's from stand-off range Not undetected. Russian war planes can't approach Ukrainian waters any more than their ships can.
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Aug 17, 2023 22:18
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golden bubble posted:That depends on how high the officer is. Junior officers (lieutenants & captains) tend to have slightly higher casualty rates than the enlisted, even in recent wars. It's only senior officers and higher that are really less dangerous, and even then they still die quite often in peer wars. All these counter-insurgency wars have warped our expectations, because in a peer war, brigadier general moved up to get better command of the unit and then eats a stray artillery shell is not unheard of. See also: German General Officer Casualties in World War II General Officer Commander Casualties (by grade) posted:
General Officer Commander Casualties (by position) posted:
Command Durations for General Officer Commanders Killed in Action posted:
Cause of Death for General Officer Commanders posted:
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Aug 17, 2023 22:30
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WarpedLichen posted:I'm not sure if there are dense enough naval mine fields to cordon off Odessa at any point, I would imagine the fear is more about Russian interdiction than mines. Why would Russia seize ships leaving Ukraine? They're searching for weapons being shipped to Ukraine, so they're not going to try it on ships going the other way.
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Aug 17, 2023 22:50
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Not So Fast posted:Why would Russia seize ships leaving Ukraine? They're searching for weapons being shipped to Ukraine, so they're not going to try it on ships going the other way. It slows down Ukraine's exports, thereby choking their economy and hindering their war efforts.
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Aug 17, 2023 22:54
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Not So Fast posted:Why would Russia seize ships leaving Ukraine? They're searching for weapons being shipped to Ukraine, so they're not going to try it on ships going the other way. They're not searching for poo poo. They're leveling threats at any parties that try to do business in the area without their permission.
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Aug 17, 2023 22:54
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Not So Fast posted:Why would Russia seize ships leaving Ukraine? They're searching for weapons being shipped to Ukraine, so they're not going to try it on ships going the other way. That's a good question, now let me ask you if the same logic applies to Russia blowing up Ukrainian grain terminals.
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Aug 17, 2023 22:57
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Lum_ posted:Because there is no consensus that a genocide is taking place, thus it's an argument. "Russia's actions don't merit the term 'genocide'" is not the same as "The Holocaust didn't happen". Demanding it be treated as such shuts down any discussion not rabidly pro-Ukrainian and we might as well start using terms like "Ruzzians" and "orcs". Who determines this "consensus" does Russia have to agree?
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Aug 17, 2023 23:12
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WarpedLichen posted:That's a good question, now let me ask you if the same logic applies to Russia blowing up Ukrainian grain terminals. Russia attacking Ukrainian civilian infrastructure is tragic, but Russia would at least have reason for it, as part of strategic bombing campaigns to pressure the Ukrainian government. It's much more difficult to do this with the ships travelling in the Black Sea because they're typically not registered to Ukraine but to other countries - for example this one was registered to Hong Kong, China is an ally of Russia.
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Aug 17, 2023 23:37
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Not So Fast posted:Russia attacking Ukrainian civilian infrastructure is tragic, but Russia would at least have reason for it, as part of strategic bombing campaigns to pressure the Ukrainian government. You seriously don't think that we can rephrase the sentence as: Russia interdicting civilian cargo ships is tragic, but Russia would at least have reason for it, as part of a strategic campaign to pressure the Ukrainian government. Reminder that the Black Sea deal was conducted with Russia inspectors so its not like they have reason to believe Ukrainian grain ships were smuggling weapons. https://www.un.org/en/black-sea-grain-initiative Reminder that Russia's decision to pull out of the grain deal wasn't because of Ukraine smuggling weapons but because they couldn't win back access to SWIFT as a concession. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/what-is-russias-problem-with-black-sea-grain-deal-2023-06-16/ I will concede that interdicting ships flying flags of other nations has more potential for political fallout and Russia hasn't done it yet, but I have no reason to see why Russia wouldn't put more pressure if the chief goal is use blackmail to ease sanctions.
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Aug 18, 2023 00:03
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