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I thought Gyunei was just a blond. The potentiality being harmed, I imagine, is the Gundam X thing of converting 'this wonderful new possibility for understanding and communication' into 'oh, the specialized Gundam pilot caste.' You can pretty much see this in /m/ style discourse, funnily enough.
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Aug 16, 2023 13:43
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I think the idea is that mass producing artificial newtypes is basically deciding "oh *this* is what a newtype is" and artificially hammering people into that niche instead of letting them develop and grow on their own. Even if there was a cyber newtype procedure that involved no pain or suffering and had no long term side effects, is it actually right to start stamping them out like a mass production press? Who knows if "empathetic psychic brain baby" is the true, best, or only path to being a newtype? What if by trying to force an evolution into what you believe a newtype is, you end up impeding something greater or more profound?
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Aug 16, 2023 13:54
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if that is the interpretation i don't see how AV becoming a medium through which child labor is heavily exploited doesn't fit. it seems to me like the difference then is cybernewtypes are a new development threatening to affect the social development and understanding of newtypes, while with AV we're seeing a story where that has long since already happened.
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Aug 16, 2023 14:15
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It's a little different because AV isn't artifically co-opting what's supposed to be a natural process, it's basically just like bolting a bionic arm onto someone. Newtypes are supposed to be a natural development of humanity.
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Aug 16, 2023 14:26
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i feel like that's somewhat divorced from any actual content involving cybernewtypes. where in any work is there an exploration of the idea that cybernewtypes are a threat to the actual natural processes by which regular newtypes are created? the "threat" they represent to a newtype movement is entirely in social understanding to my knowledge, to the degree that long term cybernewtype macro effects are even explored in the first place. i don't think this theme derived from what is already more of an implied theme than explicit in the works themselves is crucial to the "cybernewtype" trope. at that point you may as well say it's not a cybernewtype trope example unless the term "newtype" is actually used in the setting, as the definition is so strict and specific as to exclude pretty much anything else.
ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Aug 16, 2023 |
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Aug 16, 2023 16:22
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cybernewtypes only ever become real newtypes in srw. it's just not possible otherwise.
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Aug 16, 2023 16:26
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It's good to keep in mind that "cyber newtype" is only related to newtypes in localization, in Japanese it's just something like "augmented human", which is a term used in all sorts of different scifi works to refer to cyborgs and whatnot.
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Aug 16, 2023 17:17
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Begemot posted:It's good to keep in mind that "cyber newtype" is only related to newtypes in localization, in Japanese it's just something like "augmented human", which is a term used in all sorts of different scifi works to refer to cyborgs and whatnot.
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Aug 16, 2023 17:45
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Nessus posted:True, but I recall it was specifically chosen by the creators too. yeah but intent is what we're missing here. they could be just be referring to a normal person who has cybernetic implants to replicate natural newtypes. thus the name cyber newtype which shoving a bunch of hardware and expanding someone's senses who didn't grow up with it; should cause a lot of mental stress and lead to breakdowns. which we see a lot of in Gundam
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Aug 16, 2023 17:57
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Gundam as a franchise could use an army of therapists.
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Aug 16, 2023 18:05
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It's interesting how GWitch collapsed the whole newtype-cybernewtype dichotomy into different applications of the same technology. GUND cybernetics are only ever shown in a positive light, while using it in mobile suits is only shown as dangerous and horrifying.
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Aug 16, 2023 18:32
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The Cyber-Newtype thing is weird. It feels like it starts out not trying to replicate Newtypes per se so much as mimicking the very end effects - improved reflexes, spatial awareness, etc. This is why they're called "augmented" and not actually Newtypes at first. It's not a specific thing so much as a collection of powers and/or drugs you could have that make you better at piloting. But then the definition goes to include the thing that seems very specific to Newtypes, i.e. interfacing with psycommu and remote weapons. 
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Aug 17, 2023 00:05
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Probably doesn't help that it gets muddied by the Ple clones getting counted as Cyber Newtypes even though they're "just" clones of a Natural Newtype In retrospect it's a little weird how cloning of Newtypes just gets abandoned after the Ple series even though it probably has the best results of any of the various attempts at weaponizing or creating Newtypes, but that probably has more to do with the Federation's inane fear of Newtypes than anything sensible
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Aug 17, 2023 01:36
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drrockso20 posted:Probably doesn't help that it gets muddied by the Ple clones getting counted as Cyber Newtypes even though they're "just" clones of a Natural Newtype
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Aug 17, 2023 02:12
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Are the little newtype girls trapped forever as ghosts inside of gundams (I think there's like two or three across various series?) cyber newtypes or are they just newtypes that are cyber?
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Aug 17, 2023 02:23
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Nessus posted:Federation didn't get a good cloning sample off of Amuro and the other guys are sketchy spacenoids. I'm now imagining Amuro drinking from everything with a straw, like Basil in The World's End.
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Aug 17, 2023 02:23
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chiasaur11 posted:I'm now imagining Amuro drinking from everything with a straw, like Basil in The World's End.
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Aug 17, 2023 02:31
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drrockso20 posted:Probably doesn't help that it gets muddied by the Ple clones getting counted as Cyber Newtypes even though they're "just" clones of a Natural Newtype The Puru clones did go through accelerated growth and a ton of mental conditioning at the absolute least, which probably pushes the needle from "natural newtype" to "cyber newtype". Marida is also fairly physically jacked in the scenes we get of her on foot in Unicorn, though it's hard to tell if that's just artistic license for her being a trained soldier or if she has other enhancements. Nuebot posted:Are the little newtype girls trapped forever as ghosts inside of gundams (I think there's like two or three across various series?) cyber newtypes or are they just newtypes that are cyber? This isn't really a thing in any Gundam show with newtypes in it. UC Gundam has peoples' souls show up as newtype visions/ghosts but there's never any indication of them being trapped there or anything, with the sole exception of the Blue Destiny side story which involves an adult newtype woman's spirit/soul being forcibly trapped inside a series of mobile suits to allow the pilot to use her powers(called the EXAM System), with her fate varying depending on the depiction; in the manga she's dead after the suits are destroyed, whereas in the video game version she wakes up alive once all the EXAM mobile suits are blown up.
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Aug 17, 2023 02:48
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Isn't Rita(?) stuck in the Phenex?
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Aug 17, 2023 03:08
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overlordbunny posted:Isn't Rita(?) stuck in the Phenex? It's weird? She flies around in the Phenex as a ghost for a while but has no issues just kind of going "my work here is done" and passing on without the Phenex being destroyed or damaged or shut down or anything. She just goes "Okay you got this from here Jona" and peaces out.
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Aug 17, 2023 03:22
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Nessus posted:I'm imagining the Jupiter Energy Fleet attempting to mass produce Judau as an elite battle trooper. Unfortunately for them, all the Judaus immediately steal their elite machines to sell them to the highest bidder.
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Aug 17, 2023 03:36
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Kanos posted:The Puru clones did go through accelerated growth and a ton of mental conditioning at the absolute least, which probably pushes the needle from "natural newtype" to "cyber newtype". Marida is also fairly physically jacked in the scenes we get of her on foot in Unicorn, though it's hard to tell if that's just artistic license for her being a trained soldier or if she has other enhancements. Oh was the exam lady a lady and not a girl? This whole time I thought she was like, a kid whoops. overlordbunny posted:Isn't Rita(?) stuck in the Phenex? This was the other one I had in mind when asking that question though.
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Aug 17, 2023 03:46
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Rita's probably the one place where the whole "Cyber Newtype" translation becomes an actual problem since she's the only character that comes to mind who is both a Newtype AND a Cyber Newtype, and it certainly makes for an odd reading bit of dialogue when it's talked about
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Aug 17, 2023 04:34
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ninjewtsu posted:but if they don't do those things how will they ensure their expensive and powerful toy doesn't swap sides on them Oddly, Gihren's Greed is probably one of the better resources for who is/who isn't a Newtype because being a Newtype has a substantial effect on a pilot's in-game performance and their ability to take advantage of any unit equipped with Psycommu gear, and the cast is absolutely ginormous containing almost every single character from UC. Setting aside the fact that Mouar is not part of Scirocco's harem (she rejects his advances and affirms her ties to Jerid), only one person in Scirocco's harem is unambiguously a Newtype and that is Sara. I know the Gundam Wiki says otherwise, but they have a simple (but not coherent) criteria that doesn't really seem all that authoritative or consistent - it's just 'did this character appear as a ghost?'. According to the wiki, Mouar is a Newtype because she appears as a ghost to Jerid, yet Jerid isn't considered a Newtype even though he saw a vision of Mouar/her ghost - so it's not 'did this character appear as a ghost to a Newtype?' it's literally just 'did this character appear as a ghost?'. Not great if you ask me... So as for who is an who isn't a Newtype and their overall power level (according to Gihren's Greed Menace of Axis V, at least, which is everything up to but not Unicorn): Level 1 (The Strongest): Kamille, Lalah, Amuro, Haman, Quess Level 2: Scirocco, Puru, Puru Two, Char (in all his forms), Cuzco Al, Four, Judau, Sara, Zero Murasame (a Gihren's Greed exclusive character, he is the first Cyber Newtype - he is dubious in terms of being canon or not, since he only appears if you let the Federation engage in Newtype research during the OYW, but given his name it's quite possible that he existed in some form in canon, but maybe not as a usable pilot like he is in Gihren's Greed) Level 3: Chalia Bull, Marion Welch, Rosamia, Gyunei, Hathaway, Puru Clones, Mashymere (after Enhancement), Chara (after Enhancement), Leila Raymond (a Gihren's Greed exclusive character, she is the first Cyber Newtype produced by Flanagan - this is a super 'what-if' scenario because it assumes that Zeon wins the OYW, Zero is created, he defects to Zeon, and then Zeon uses that technology to create their own Cyber Newtypes. Needless to say, she is definitely not canon) Level 4: Sayla, Gates, Enhanced Humans 2 through 4 (these are created after Leila by Flanagan, so they ain't canon) Level 5 (The Weakest): Glemmy, Fa, Mirai, Katsu, Siddore, and Revil What does power level mean? The higher the level of Newtype, the sooner they 'awaken' to their Newtype abilities and become able to use Newtype weapons. Furthermore, as they 'level up' and gain experience (represented by a letter grade - E is the least experienced, then D, C, B, and A. S is when you hit the experience point cap), they get even bigger bonuses to their piloting abilities on top of their base statline compared to lower-level Newtypes. Needless to say, Level 1 Newtypes are amazingly strong pilots compared to Level 2 and lower Newtypes. As for everything Unicorn and beyond, I will give the authors of those credit for being pretty explicit about who is and isn't a Newtype. LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Aug 17, 2023 |
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Aug 17, 2023 22:03
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Yazan had a new type moment with Reccoa, but then he declared that he wasn't having any of it and nothing more came of it. Yazan Gable is very... distinct. Wonder what he was doing in the OYW.
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Aug 17, 2023 22:22
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chiasaur11 posted:Yazan had a new type moment with Reccoa, but then he declared that he wasn't having any of it and nothing more came of it. Chilling in his speedo, duh. He had to keep himself fresh for the fash. 
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Aug 17, 2023 22:29
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Revil being brought up had me thinking of yet another of my goofy what if ideas; What If The Colony Laser Failed? See the thing was already in every version of Original Gundam(besides the Tomino novels) a finicky bastard as it fried itself from being fired early by Ghiren so it's not a big departure at all to assume it could have just as easily failed to fire at all or even backfire spectacularly, the latter of which is what I'm assuming to happen in this scenario, Gihren trying to fire it early results in the Colony Laser not only failing to fire but to deal enough damage to itself that it would be months at best before it could be made operable again, so now Gihren finds himself in one hell of a pickle, not only is Degwin still alive, not only is Revil alive and the Federation fleet is at full strength(including a fully functioning Solar Ray System), not only is he out of a super weapon, there is also no way Kycilia won't figure out very quickly what he tried to do to their father... Still sorting out the details but overall picturing the Federation and the Principality of Zeon hashing out a peace treaty, while Gihren and those who stayed loyal to him have fled to Mars in rebellion against Degwin, the 0080's and 0090's will be peaceful decades in this alternate Universal Century but the dawn of the next century will bring with it a new era of war...
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Aug 17, 2023 22:56
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Just finished 08MS Team and it was pretty great. Jungle Gundam is a cool setting and I appreciate the Vietnam war movie vibes. The action pieces seemed more carefully considered than usual and that Gouf fight… god drat. I liked the decisions the characters made at the end even if it was quite saccharine except for RIP Sanders. Those are early Gundam models they’re using right? Sanders (I think) says something like “so this is Gundam” early on, but they don’t dwell on it much afaicr. On to Zeta next.
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Aug 17, 2023 23:16
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Yeah, the Ground Gundam is built from leftover Project V parts, so it's just the Grandaddy Gundam specialized for terrestrial operations.
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Aug 17, 2023 23:19
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drrockso20 posted:Revil being brought up had me thinking of yet another of my goofy what if ideas; What If The Colony Laser Failed?
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Aug 17, 2023 23:25
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LuiCypher posted:Oddly, Gihren's Greed is probably one of the better resources for who is/who isn't a Newtype because being a Newtype has a substantial effect on a pilot's in-game performance and their ability to take advantage of any unit equipped with Psycommu gear, and the cast is absolutely ginormous containing almost every single character from UC. Gihren's Greed is also just it's own take on "What if...?" scenarios, so I wouldn't take it as definitive on anything since it just does whatever is cool from a narrative/gameplay standpoint to further it's scenarios. That aside, Haman senses Jerid as a Newtype shortly before his death, it's a bit weird to see Char listed as one of the stronger Newtypes, Gyunei was definitively a Cyber Newtype in Char's Counterattack, since you seemed to be listing him as a normal Newtype and Revil is implied to be a Newtype in the show and movies, sensing some stuff happening in minor scenes or something (I'd have to go and look at the scenes again to get the specific details). chiasaur11 posted:Yazan had a new type moment with Reccoa, but then he declared that he wasn't having any of it and nothing more came of it. Scirocco also seemed to know Yazan was a potential Newtype, since when they first interact he talks to Yazan about how he should use his feelings to make himself more effective in combat and poo poo. drrockso20 posted:Revil being brought up had me thinking of yet another of my goofy what if ideas; What If The Colony Laser Failed? It was not only in the Tomino novels too, but far more successful in those, since it could be fired repeatedly and Gihren used it to wipe out most of the Federation's fleet, with only the White Base escaping alongside a few of Kycilia's ships. Which causes them to ally and infiltrate Side 3 together in order to kill Gihren.
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Aug 17, 2023 23:49
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PhoenixFlaccus posted:Just finished 08MS Team and it was pretty great. Jungle Gundam is a cool setting and I appreciate the Vietnam war movie vibes. The action pieces seemed more carefully considered than usual and that Gouf fight… god drat. I liked the decisions the characters made at the end even if it was quite saccharine except for RIP Sanders. Those are early Gundam models they’re using right? Sanders (I think) says something like “so this is Gundam” early on, but they don’t dwell on it much afaicr. Arc Hammer posted:Yeah, the Ground Gundam is built from leftover Project V parts, so it's just the Grandaddy Gundam specialized for terrestrial operations. Notably it wasn't until just a few years ago that they finally revealed how the Ground Gundams fit in with Project V, when an MSV spinoff of The Origin revealed that there were in fact multiple visually distinct prototypes all under the RX-78-1 designation and not just the one we had known about for decades and one of those has a strong resemblance to the Ground Gundams so now we know where exactly the "spare Gundam parts" they were developed from came from From my recollection Thunderbolt went with an alternate explanation for its version of the Ground Gundam with them explicitly not being actual Gundams at all, just very high end GM's with Gundam style heads to make them more spooky to their opponents, but Thunderbolt is explicitly an AU so is its own thing Nessus posted:Revil being alive seems likely to reduce the shithead factor in the Zeta period, since Revil seemed like a good egg as well as probably being able to be the Big Hero after the war. Which would take the spotlight off Amuro and allow him to have more of a normal life. I misremember, did Lalah die before or after that? Yeah I'm picturing the peace between the Federation and Zeon to be a tense but surprisingly stable one, as for Lalah I'm pretty sure the Colony Laser is fired shortly after their fight With Revil still alive I imagine the Federation takes a more friendly position on Newtypes in both positive and negative ways, as for Amuro he gets to enjoy a peaceful 20 years of mostly quiet civilian life, probably becomes a professor, does the odd bit of consultation for the Federation, has a family, he'd be in his mid 30's to early 40's by the time this new war starts so whether he gets dragged into the fighting directly is another thing entirely Also thinking about it I'm really not sure where Char is going to end up in this timeline both in the short term and long term, will he stay in Side 3, jump ship to Mars, or something else entirely(though I imagine no matter what "Char's Midlife Crisis" will cause problems for everyone) tsob posted:Gihren's Greed is also just it's own take on "What if...?" scenarios, so I wouldn't take it as definitive on anything since it just does whatever is cool from a narrative/gameplay standpoint to further it's scenarios. That aside, Haman senses Jerid as a Newtype shortly before his death, it's a bit weird to see Char listed as one of the stronger Newtypes, Gyunei was definitively a Cyber Newtype in Char's Counterattack, since you seemed to be listing him as a normal Newtype and Revil is implied to be a Newtype in the show and movies, sensing some stuff happening in minor scenes or something (I'd have to go and look at the scenes again to get the specific details). What I meant was that it was the one version that was reliable not that it wasn't in the novels
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Aug 18, 2023 01:15
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If they were gonna go and do a live action miniseries, something along the lines of 8th MS Team always seemed like the safest bet to me Is the movie going to adapt any part of the UC stuff or are we going the Original Story route that will likely automatically suck
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Aug 18, 2023 01:20
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Considering both of the director’s projects (Gundam and Metal Gear) have been stuck in development for like, four years or so now(?), I am fully convinced neither of them is ever going to happen. That being said, the sense I’ve gotten is that Bandai/Sunrise would never allow a remake of the original series (which is why the origin stopped where it did), so it’s unlikely they’d go that route for the movie. To make it accessible to western audiences, it will almost certainly be some original AU of suck.
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Aug 18, 2023 15:01
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I think they're absolutely going to do a remake of 0079 in some form once Tomino is dead and cannot object.
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Aug 18, 2023 15:13
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They should’ve remade it in the late 90s when hand drawn animation was at its peak. As much as I want it modernized, a highly CGI-dependent remake of 0079 wouldn’t sit well with me.
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Aug 18, 2023 15:29
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The Gundam UC Engage cutscenes are a nice treat that remind me of the animated cutscenes of 0079 era footage from some of the 90s games.
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Aug 18, 2023 15:39
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Gin_Rummy posted:They should’ve remade it in the late 90s when hand drawn animation was at its peak. As much as I want it modernized, a highly CGI-dependent remake of 0079 wouldn’t sit well with me. what if they made it look like redline, do people still like redline?
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Aug 18, 2023 15:42
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If Takeshi Koike directed his own gundam movie it would probably take 30 years to make, burn through more key animators per week than GWitch did for the finale and it would likely be the best looking animated film of all time.
Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Aug 18, 2023 |
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Aug 18, 2023 16:01
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LuiCypher posted:Level 1 (The Strongest): Kamille, Lalah, Amuro, Haman, Quess Bullshit that Char is a higher tier than Chalia Bull, Chalia Bull rules.
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Aug 18, 2023 16:40
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