|
Herstory Begins Now posted:most people don't try to overthrow the results of an election or have a quarter of a billion dollars raised for their legal defense, let him deal with the complexity of the situation he himself created You're intentionally ignoring my main point. I'm not going to say "bad things are good actually, because they happened to a bad person one time." It's very easy to turn that into "people wouldn't be awaiting trial or in jail if they weren't guilty so they did this to themselves," and that's how you get the American prison industry. I'm going to call this out as complete bullshit because I care about having a legal system that gives defendants a fair shake, even Donald Trump. Edit: But the solution isn't "Give Trump unlimited time before his trial so he can die of a heart attack before he goes to jail." It's "You already did all the work looking through this and marking things as relevant or not. You should have to give that to the defense as well." Trump is obviously using this as a talking point even though it's not actually a real obstacle for him. Removing the practice would both be more fair AND remove his dumb argument about it being impossible to go to trial. KillHour fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Aug 18, 2023 |
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 06:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 18:19 |
|
|
As terrible as all these idiots are, and as terrifying as their behavior is, at least they nearly all seem to be oddly honest. It's kind of nice that the cohort of unhinged wackos seems to have agreed that when confronted with their actions they shouldn't ever deny doing it. Instead the preferred reaction seems to be to proudly and defiantly channel Samuel L Jackson from A Time To Kill, followed by confusion over why no one is clapping. Then later in court it's all just variations on a defense of, "How was I to know [clearly illegal thing] was illegal!?" Being convinced that you are a member of the silent majority, unjustly held down by the vocal minority seems to be terrible for everyone but the prosecution. KillHour posted:That's fair but even if the page count was 1/100th of that, most people couldn't afford it without selling everything they own and probably taking on student-loan amounts of debt. I think the main thing here is that almost all of Trump's post 2012ish crimes are of a nature where you pretty much have to be able to afford the lawyers if caught. A poor guy isn't inciting an insurrection with a side of vote tampering. As such it's not comparable to the costs involved in an everyday Joe(non-Biden) caught up in the system. As such you can't really accurately use it as any sort of baseline, no matter how you handicap it, for what a normal person would be going through. Our system is poo poo and, as with almost everything in our Acolytes of Mammon Nation, far too expensive. This just isn't really a case to springboard off of into a discussion of unfair costs to the defendants.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 07:02
|
|
|
KillHour posted:I know that we're all happy that [bad thing] is finally happening to [bad person] instead of [random unlucky minority], but remember that ACAB and while this exact thing won't happen to a random person, I wouldn't be surprised if prosecutors intentionally make legal discovery as painful as possible just because they can. Let's say someone is in trouble for selling drugs on Craigslist - the government is probably just going to dump the logs of every website you ever visited as part of discovery because they don't have to be nice and only give you the relevant stuff. In general, judges tend to frown on this sort of pointless loving around, and the defense can complain to the judge if the prosecution is blatantly trying to gently caress with them like this. And in the first place, if the prosecution is doing the online equivalent of printing out the entire phonebook and calling it discovery, it's actually not all that hard to sort out the useless stuff from the stuff actually relevant to the "selling drugs on Craigslist" court case. Lum_ was somewhat flippant about it, but I thought they did have a good point: the government doesn't need a million pages of documents to charge a broke person with some petty drug crimes. A defense lawyer doesn't need to hire dozens of professional document reviewers with security clearances to page through a couple dozen pages of police investigative reports. The reason there's so much discovery in this case is because the case is about a massive national conspiracy involving dozens of co-conspirators who altogether mobilized tens of thousands of people to do crimes on their behalf.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 07:09
|
|
|
Trump went on a shitposting binge earlier Theres like 30 posts just from today, though mostly reposting idiots like MTG. But a few choice ones like this. I couldnt find the video from someone who wasnt nuts. https://twitter.com/GH17TAFKAG/status/1692295250616738123
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 07:10
|
|
|
KillHour posted:You're intentionally ignoring my main point. I'm not going to say "bad things are good actually, because they happened to a bad person one time." It's very easy to turn that into "people wouldn't be awaiting trial or in jail if they weren't guilty so they did this to themselves," and that's how you get the American prison industry. that's great? I never said anything remotely like that so idk what that has to do with what I said.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 07:10
|
|
|
Edward Mass posted:This is the most Republican fuckin' thing I've ever seen. He embezzled money from farmers for a fake anti-Biden movie! Your premise is not sufficiently served by your summary. The rabbit hole goes so, so much deeper. https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...1e90_story.html
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 07:13
|
|
|
OgNar posted:Trump went on a shitposting binge earlier The Republican caricature of Biden is so much better than the Onion's. Too bad we can't get the full open border, radical socialist, mad Dark Brandon experience.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 07:17
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:that's great? I never said anything remotely like that so idk what that has to do with what I said. What you said is "let him deal with the complexity of the situation he himself created." I took that to mean that you don't see an issue with it. I'm pointing out the issues with this kind of thing happening in general. Main Paineframe posted:In general, judges tend to frown on this sort of pointless loving around, and the defense can complain to the judge if the prosecution is blatantly trying to gently caress with them like this. I get that the defense has a reason to inflate the amount of documents involved here, but there's no way you get into the millions without just dumping literally every communication anyone remotely involved ever sent. It just doesn't pass the smell test (to me) as anywhere near a reasonable amount of things you could call evidence for a single trial. I agree that complaining to the judge should probably be the remedy instead of grandstanding (of course Trump will always grandstand if given the opportunity), but I also think the government should just not be allowed to mix in useless garbage with the evidence they actually plan on using.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 07:22
|
|
|
I actually completely agree with the notion that the laws and legal actions are clearly not fair, and often times overly stacked in a prosecutor's favor. It's a lovely system. And I absolutely agree it should be more fair to rich and poor alike. Even people we don't like deserve fair and just representation as well as sentencing. That being said with the system in place as it is now I am glad someone who actively and genuinely deserves it is highly likely going to be dealing with this lovely system for quite literally the rest of his life. And he was warned against it by competent people too. This is a hell of his own making.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 07:32
|
|
|
Nelson Mandingo posted:
Which was for a large part done in front of cameras and online. For 4+ years.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 07:34
|
|
|
KillHour posted:What you said is "let him deal with the complexity of the situation he himself created." I took that to mean that you don't see an issue with it. I'm pointing out the issues with this kind of thing happening in general. literally in the first post i made on the subject, 'maybe if he was some random citizen without the resources that would seem like some horribly unfair burden, but not for him.' idk what you are even disagreeing with
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 07:42
|
|
|
A tiered justice system originally develops by the rich over time to protect each other from equivalent accountability to the law, then it grows to a condition where it relies on excessive subjugation of the poor or undesirable, then it grows to a condition of immunizing specific classes of politically connected individuals, then it reveals itself as being a tool that the former elite accidentally set up to allow a populist leader to do that whole fascism thing for years without any adequate or timely response by the legal system
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 07:45
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:literally in the first post i made on the subject, 'maybe if he was some random citizen without the resources that would seem like some horribly unfair burden, but not for him.' I'm disagreeing with the idea that because he can afford it, it's okay for the unnecessary burden to be there. Basically, I agree with this: Nelson Mandingo posted:I actually completely agree with the notion that the laws and legal actions are clearly not fair, and often times overly stacked in a prosecutor's favor. It's a lovely system. And I absolutely agree it should be more fair to rich and poor alike. Even people we don't like deserve fair and just representation as well as sentencing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 07:46
|
|
|
KillHour posted:I'm disagreeing with the idea that because he can afford it, it's okay for the unnecessary burden to be there. Basically, I agree with this: I kind of feel like you're leaving out the part that Trump did all of this to himself is kind of the most salient point. He was told by competent people at every opportunity he would face consequences or there would be problems with what he attempted to accomplish. He did it anyway. We can rightfully point out the flaws and inadequacies of the system while highlighting a person in a position of authority over it abused it, was warned not to, and it's doling out punishment. Which isn't even appropriate or proportional to his crimes. It's taken two years to get here. Were it you or I performing the same actions we would be arrested quickly and held without bail. In a just world, he would have been arrested the week he openly and unambiguously attempted to perform a coup. Nelson Mandingo fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Aug 18, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 07:54
|
|
|
KillHour posted:I'm disagreeing with the idea that because he can afford it, it's okay for the unnecessary burden to be there. Basically, I agree with this: Similarly, you miss the point in this case that the unnecessary burden is there because Trump did all of this to himself. People have said that no random schmuck off the street is going to be saddled with petabytes of discovery data, and even if they did the scope of the actual crimes for a single person would make it extremely obvious there did not need to be multiple petabytes of discovery for a dude who sold a thousand dollars worth of drugs or whatever. You are literally making up a situation to get mad at and raining on people's parade.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 08:08
|
|
|
KillHour posted:What you said is "let him deal with the complexity of the situation he himself created." I took that to mean that you don't see an issue with it. I'm pointing out the issues with this kind of thing happening in general. There's more evidence than just transcripts of online communications. There's eyewitness reports, witness interviews, photographs, videos, lists of documents. And yes, probably extensive transcripts of the Trump team's communications through multiple services and mediums, because something like that is not optional when you're trying to prove conspiracy. A lot of it is going to be repetitive. For example, if they interviewed five Mar-a-Lago workers about moving the boxes of classified documents to the bathroom, there's going to be a lot of repeated info between those five interviews. But the government can't cut out that repeated info and consolidate it into a single summary of all five, because the defense might want to pore over those five interviews for any potential inconsistencies between them, which they could try to use to discredit all five interviews. And most of it is probably double-spaced with a big header and footer on every page. The defense doesn't want a smaller, cut-down discovery set. They want to see as much as possible so they have more potential angles of attack. They'd rather prune it down themselves rather than trusting the prosecutors to do that for them. And "millions of pages of documents" doesn't seem to be out of the ordinary for a lawsuit against a large organization engaged in complex conspiracies to commit crimes. For example, when a herbal dick pills company got whacked with 100+ charges of fraud, here's how the discovery was described: quote:The volume of discovery in the present case was prodigious. Indeed, the government turned over millions of pages of discovery, but that discovery appears to have come from relatively few sources. Most of the discovery came from Berkeley itself, when, in March 2005, inspectors executed a search warrant and "imaged" (i.e., copied) the electronic contents of the company's computers and servers. After the search, the computers and servers remained on Berkeley's premises, except for several laptops, which were taken offsite and returned two days later. All told, the electronic evidence originating at Berkeley filled three "tera-drives" and numbered 17 million pages. In addition to the electronic evidence, agents seized approximately 506,000 pages of hard-copy documents, all of which the defendants were eventually permitted to copy. On top of the evidence obtained at Berkeley, discovery included 275 discs of material gathered by the grand jury and 13 discs of potential trial exhibits compiled by the government. And not only did the court reject their complaints about the amount of evidence and the time allowed, but it cited Skilling v USA (a lawsuit by the ex-CEO of Enron) in which "several hundred million pages of documents" had been involved. In that case, the court acknowledged that the government padding the discovery with tons of irrelevant information on purpose to interfere with the defense would be a violation, but that there was no indication that the government had done such a thing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 08:18
|
|
|
fakeedit: goddamnit MPFKillHour posted:I agree that complaining to the judge should probably be the remedy instead of grandstanding (of course Trump will always grandstand if given the opportunity), but I also think the government should just not be allowed to mix in useless garbage with the evidence they actually plan on using. As to the government being responsible for curating evidence, I find it easiest to think about things in terms of settling up a fantasy football winner at the end of the year. There's the directly relevant information, we'll call it the Mahomes Material - those are the stats generated by the players on our teams, directly relevant to our contest. I think everyone can agree the government should hand this sort of thing over. Then there are the records of all the plays involving our players and the ones involving all the other players in the league too... we'll go with the Material World as the label. So, everything in Mahomes Material lives in the Material World, but more with more granularity and a bunch of additional, less relevant info. Still, it can be handy to confirm the accuracy of the summarized Mahomes Material and provides additional context, especially when any scoring decision is disputed or interpreted differently (is it a shovel pass or a pitch?). There's probably room to disagree on the government's need to turn over this material. What that leaves is all of the other plays from all of the players from all the other seasons that have ever been played. Given recent retirements, I'll insist we name this universe Brady Material. And I'm certain we can all agree there's never any reason for the government to turn over Brady material  I'm honestly not sure whether I owe a bigger apology to those who saw that coming or those who didn't. Either way, I'm sorryJokes aside - Brady became a thing for a reason: Because prosecutors and cops have always been notorious for prioritizing convictions over justice & fair trials and that has meant regularly burying contradictory and exculpatory evidence. A solution to our inequitable justice system that relies on prosecutors and cops to fairly define and make the classifications necessary for KillHour posted:the government should just not be allowed to mix in useless garbage with the evidence they actually plan on using. If I had the misfortune of finding myself at the center of a nationwide conspiracy based in part on the actions and communication of dozens of other people and I had to choose between being given an overwhelming amount of discovery and relying on the agencies that continue to poo poo all over Brady (and the lawyers who enable them) to curate that info for me, I'm choosing the former every time! Even though I also don't have nearly enough cash for nitrousoxide's services. Especially since the alternative is that if the government fucks up (intentionally or otherwise), I have to find out about it without having access to the exculpatory evidence, prove its authenticity, and convince a judge (more than half of which were government lawyers themselves on the federal side) that it mattered. Most of my posts (by wordcount at least) ITT have been about not torching civil liberties just because Trump's the defendant, so chalk me up as disagreement that isn't "it's OK because it's Trump" Paracaidas fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Aug 18, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 08:38
|
|
|
It's OK because it's Trump in the sense that no one in history has so exhaustively chronicled their own MYCRIMES.txt as Donald J Trump and his team. You've got to include all the various times they just tweeted it out, held a press conference about it, shot their mouth off at a rally, hot mic'd the situation, recorded it in an interview, yelled it out, or otherwise took notes on a criminal conspiracy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 09:01
|
|
|
hired multiple documentary crews to document their efforts, etc.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 09:10
|
|
|
I was gonna ask but I think it's been covered; Isn't the point of discovery that you have to turn over everything that might be relevant to the other side? It's not the case that the prosecution knows what documents it plans to use and thus should only be turning those over. It's also got to turn over anything potentially exculpatory as well, and it's going to be a good idea to cast a wide net with that, because if you get a conviction and then an appeal can show you failed to disclose potentially important evidence, that's pretty close to a slam dunk on getting the judgment overturned? And it would arguably be just as unfair in a different manner to expect the Prosecution will sincerely turn over everything that might aid the defense or point to mitigating circumstances. I absolutely agree that the system is hosed, the playground of the rich, and if the prosecution really is screwing around that should be remedied, but with the situation as it is I just don't think that's the case. It seems like a totally consistent number of documents for a huge, complex case alleging a conspiracy involving a long time period and a lot of moving parts.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 09:51
|
|
|
Nitrousoxide posted:Dunno. I don't deal with clients that can't pay lol. I'm just imagining what a case like this would do to the typical public defenders' office It would blow our entire offices' money and time budget for the entire year, most likely. Possibly the *state* public defender budget.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 10:21
|
|
|
They should just agree on a plea bargain. 10% of the maximal punishment for each charge sounds fair. Why sent Trump to 10.000 years of prision when 1000 will suffice?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 10:27
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm just imagining what a case like this would do to the typical public defenders' office I would, however, love to see a criminal conspiracy that generated 11 million pages of potential evidence but for which defendants still qualified for public defenders.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 10:29
|
|
|
Are things like tweets considered documents? Not just Trump's but those of people communicating with him. Something like that might be a "page", but only one or two short sentences of content. Still, eleven and a half million is just... Absurd. Even if there's a significant chunk of those that are almost certainly smaller than first glance. That seems insane to me. And this is still just one cluster of crimes. Mind-blowing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 11:20
|
|
|
KillHour posted:I'm disagreeing with the idea that because he can afford it, it's okay for the unnecessary burden to be there. Basically, I agree with this: the burden that there is too much evidence the defense would like to read through. the government didn't do that. the governments obligation is to turn over all evidence it has. what is the unfairness here, precisely. then, what is your proposed solution
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 11:29
|
|
|
Veryslightlymad posted:Are things like tweets considered documents? Not just Trump's but those of people communicating with him. Something like that might be a "page", but only one or two short sentences of content. Depends how they were imaged, but if they are reviewing the government’s production here the tweets might be individual pages. I doubt the tweets make up a significant portion of those pages though. Chats also can be imaged differently depending on circumstances. Things like excels probably were just produced as native files with single page bates numbered slipsheets regardless of their size since they tend to be pretty unreadable as images. Audio files would also similarly be slipsheeted and natively produced.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 11:29
|
|
|
Yeah, I was using it as an example. He didn't make anywhere close to 11.5 million tweets in his entire presidency, let alone just regarding defrauding Georgia. But emails, text messages between parties..... There's going to be a lot of communication that was extremely concise.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 11:43
|
|
|
Veryslightlymad posted:Yeah, I was using it as an example. He didn't make anywhere close to 11.5 million tweets in his entire presidency, let alone just regarding defrauding Georgia. Imagine the "pages" that a single seized computer generates.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 11:49
|
|
|
I haven't seen the data here, and if I had I wouldn't be talking about it on Something Awful! But, a typical review will be made up mostly of emails and their attachments. You'll have a smaller portion of documents which are orphaned files which don't have an email parent that they came from. These would be usually sourced from either something like a Google drive or a dump from someone's hard drive. And then you might have an even smaller portion of scanned in documents from physical meat space. I should also mention that "documents" means any reviewable file in the ediscovery world. You would use the term to refer to audio files, videos, chat logs, and so on.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 11:51
|
|
|
How much space would a Piss Tape use up, in your experience?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 12:06
|
|
|
knox_harrington posted:How much space would a Piss Tape use up, in your experience? If it was 24fps and let's say he's getting pissed on for 25 minutes straight, then that's: 24x60x25=36,000pages to print out each individual frame . But let's be fair, there's gonna be a lot of annotations and commentary, and the actual piss tape is probably longer and recorded in stylistic 48fps. So we're talking conservatively 100,000 Pages of Piss
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 12:22
|
|
|
Interesting. CNN says they've placed Chesebro at the Capital with Alex Jones on January 6th. Kenneth Chesebro, alleged architect of fake electors’ plot, followed Alex Jones around Capitol grounds on January 6th https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/18/politics/kfile-kenneth-chesebro-followed-alex-jones-capitol-riot-jan-6
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 12:37
|
|
|
Failed Imagineer posted:let's say he's getting pissed on for 25 minutes straight drat, those ladies must’ve had some incredible bladders
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 12:37
|
|
|
Can she do something about that aside from reschedule? https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1692345509690720338
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 12:44
|
|
|
OgNar posted:Trump went on a shitposting binge earlier People always say Trump’s accusations are really confessions, and this is my favourite one yet. I almost feel a little bit sorry for the part of his mind that feels compelled to give us cryptic warnings about the…other part. The Artificial Kid fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Aug 18, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 12:45
|
|
|
Staluigi posted:Yeah the fuckin fox news limbic juicing train just became this hypnotic ritual for so many older americans that it would promote absolute derangement of the very literal kind. it makes sense it would pair well with substance abuse of the more tangibly ingestible kind That woman is 43. Main Paineframe posted:
Judge is setting her up for a conservancy hearing. She’s already lost her kids and her father is basically acting as the conservator. She’s legit mentally unwell FizFashizzle fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Aug 18, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 12:56
|
|
|
Nitrousoxide posted:Dunno. I don't deal with clients that can't pay lol. Our justice system is so loving broken. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 14:32
|
|
|
Dean knows what he's talking about https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1692523244140503343
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 14:32
|
|
|
Jean-Paul Shartre posted:I would, however, love to see a criminal conspiracy that generated 11 million pages of potential evidence but for which defendants still qualified for public defenders. Keep an eye on Rudy and you just might get to!
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 14:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 18:19 |
|
|
The Bible posted:Our justice system is so loving broken. Yes, but not because the average person doesn't get a team of 45-60 lawyers and document specialist to analyze discovery for free. This stuff is really only necessary for the highest tier of cases. The average person going to trial in their traffic case is basically going to have a discovery file that is the size of a manila folder and just lists the time of arrest, criminal record, arresting officer report, and maybe maintenance records on the breathalyzer or something else if the defense requests it. You do not need to hire a team of lawyers and contractors to digitize and review your discovery for a normal criminal case.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 14:39
|
|
