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Einander
Sep 14, 2008

"Yeh've forged a magnificent sword."

"This one's only practice. The real sword I intend to forge will be three times longer."

"Can there really be a sword as monstrous as that in this world?"

"Yes. I can see that sword... Somewhere out there..."

Super Jay Mann posted:

(Still Reverie) It absolutely is specified, it was one of the first things Lapis mentioned when explaining what Elysium is. It's an AI singularity that runs on and operates via a combination the Orbal Net infrastructure and the underground Septium veins. The latter of which is, you know, the literal source of all magic in this universe. If you buy one of this series' central conceits, that being that humans figured out how to harness magic to create 'modern' technology, then the nature and abilities of the Elysium singularity are in no way asspully. That's just you not paying attention to the drat text of the work you're playing.

(Reverie) The weirdest thing about Elysium to me is that they could have made it so much simpler: just make Elysium a consciousness embodying the spirit veins and explain the technological aspects as it finding a way to use the orbal network to communicate, rather than being an emergent consciousness within the orbal net itself. It comes out to the same thing, it just makes it way more explicit where all of Elysium's power is coming from and the increased timeline of "somehow a consciousness emerged sometime between now and the creation of the planet" is more immediately accepted than "somehow a consciousness emerged sometime within the last three to five years."

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Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Are... are you quite sure you really want to say that?
Taco Defender

Super Jay Mann posted:

(Still Reverie) It absolutely is specified, it was one of the first things Lapis mentioned when explaining what Elysium is. It's an AI singularity that runs on and operates via a combination the Orbal Net infrastructure and the underground Septium veins. The latter of which is, you know, the literal source of all magic in this universe. If you buy one of this series' central conceits, that being that humans figured out how to harness magic to create 'modern' technology, then the nature and abilities of the Elysium singularity are in no way asspully. That's just you not paying attention to the drat text of the work you're playing.

You missed the part where this AI somehow builds a power plant/generator in [UNSPECIFIED LOCATION] to convert the septium veins energy into mechanical energy to perform work. That energy don't do anything by itself sitting in the ground, unattached to anything. No part of the text says that it's calling stuff into existence out of thin air like a Star Trek replicator, which would frankly be more believable than another key requirement to accomplish what it did:

Which is to say that the AI seemingly requires an entire massive fleet of hundred or thousands of cloaked, invisible, silent, flying/hovering AND submersible cargo/construction robots (FILE PICTURE NOT FOUND) merely to move all that material around. It's coming from the Nord Highlands all the way to Crossbell and Reinford's factory (which apparently is so completely automated that it has 0 people working inside and 0 human security keeping an eye out). Then the finished product has to be moved, somehow, to Lake Elm. And all that construction including factory renovation was done in under a month before the signing ceremony incident, which was when Alisa personally inspected the factory and saw it to be normal. When did that fleet of cargo/construction robots get constructed and where?

Given the size of that tower, I will say with certainty that it is not physically possible for that lone Crossbell RF MilFac on its own to process that amount of material for the taller-and-thicker-than-Orchis-Tower tower, the evil Soldats, and the giant super-goliath soldats. No additional factories were mentioned as helping to build stuff. You could say other factories were added, but the issue then is that you need additional streams of invisible, silent, flying cargo/construction bots delivering materials/finished product for each one.


And once again: all this was done with such perfect secrecy that not one single human is known to have noticed any of it happening. It's this problem all over again. Can't be done.

Einander posted:

(Reverie) The weirdest thing about Elysium to me is that they could have made it so much simpler: just make Elysium a consciousness embodying the spirit veins and explain the technological aspects as it finding a way to use the orbal network to communicate, rather than being an emergent consciousness within the orbal net itself. It comes out to the same thing, it just makes it way more explicit where all of Elysium's power is coming from and the increased timeline of "somehow a consciousness emerged sometime between now and the creation of the planet" is more immediately accepted than "somehow a consciousness emerged sometime within the last three to five years."

Correction: Within the last five-six months. It apparently came into existence as a result of the spirit veins twisting because of the war or whatever, which ended like Sept 2. The prologue is Feb 14, Act 1 starts March 15.

And again, it's mostly the mundane stuff which I find the most unbelievable. An AI being created because of the merging of the mystical and mysterious "Spirit Veins" and Orbal Technology isn't even totally whacky for me. It's out there, sure, but the Geofront was specifically designed to merge the spirit veins and orbal tech for a purpose, and no one knows much about spirit veins other than they're mystical and mysterious.

Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Aug 18, 2023

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013

I thought the internet AI just took over some Ouroboros faciliities to do all its robot making/deathbeam construction.

It's dumb but perhaps i'm just projecting my own disinterest in it here but the game never felt like it cared too much about the overarching story as it were. Its largely just instrumental to put the pieces in play that the game actually cares about, and I was fine with that.

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
"If you wonder how he eats and breathes and other science facts/Then repeat to yourself, 'It's just a show, I should really just relax"

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

You missed the part where this AI somehow builds a power plant/generator in [UNSPECIFIED LOCATION] to convert the septium veins energy into mechanical energy to perform work. That energy don't do anything by itself sitting in the ground, unattached to anything. No part of the text says that it's calling stuff into existence out of thin air like a Star Trek replicator, which would frankly be more believable than another key requirement to accomplish what it did:

Which is to say that the AI seemingly requires an entire massive fleet of hundred or thousands of cloaked, invisible, silent, flying/hovering AND submersible cargo/construction robots (FILE PICTURE NOT FOUND) merely to move all that material around. It's coming from the Nord Highlands all the way to Crossbell and Reinford's factory (which apparently is so completely automated that it has 0 people working inside and 0 human security keeping an eye out). Then the finished product has to be moved, somehow, to Lake Elm. And all that construction including factory renovation was done in under a month before the signing ceremony incident, which was when Alisa personally inspected the factory and saw it to be normal. When did that fleet of cargo/construction robots get constructed and where?

Given the size of that tower, I will say with certainty that it is not physically possible for that lone Crossbell RF MilFac on its own to process that amount of material for the taller-and-thicker-than-Orchis-Tower tower, the evil Soldats, and the giant super-goliath soldats. No additional factories were mentioned as helping to build stuff. You could say other factories were added, but the issue then is that you need additional streams of invisible, silent, flying cargo/construction bots delivering materials/finished product for each one.


And once again: all this was done with such perfect secrecy that not one single human is known to have noticed any of it happening. It's this problem all over again. Can't be done.

Correction: Within the last five-six months. It apparently came into existence as a result of the spirit veins twisting because of the war or whatever, which ended like Sept 2. The prologue is Feb 14, Act 1 starts March 15.

And again, it's mostly the mundane stuff which I find the most unbelievable. An AI being created because of the merging of the mystical and mysterious "Spirit Veins" and Orbal Technology isn't even totally whacky for me. It's out there, sure, but the Geofront was specifically designed to merge the spirit veins and orbal tech for a purpose, and no one knows much about spirit veins other than they're mystical and mysterious.

The skewed, expedient time scales for stuff happening in this world is definitely the most glaring thing that can break suspension of disbelief. Even accounting for "it's magic, I don't gotta explain poo poo" logic everything happens way too quickly, so I can sympathize with that particular bit as being bothersome to players.

With that said, I just don't think it mnatters all that much. We have reasonable explanations for what Elysium is, what its goals are, what drove their motivations every step of the way, and at least a general idea of how it pulled off what it did. The logistics are questionable as you've clearly pointed out, but it's a story, sometimes you just gotta roll with it. And I think it was rather disingenuous to lazily compare the whole thing to "somehow Palpatine returned" which was a narrative thread with actually zero leadup and questionable logic even within the context of the universe it happened in.

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Are... are you quite sure you really want to say that?
Taco Defender

SyntheticPolygon posted:

I thought the internet AI just took over some Ouroboros faciliities to do all its robot making/deathbeam construction.

It's dumb but perhaps i'm just projecting my own disinterest in it here but the game never felt like it cared too much about the overarching story as it were. Its largely just instrumental to put the pieces in play that the game actually cares about, and I was fine with that.

Sure, the "who cares about the story" philosophy is one point of view.

Counterpoint:

This is a series which has a history of layering in little background easy-to-miss tidbits of information. Lots of little things for players to pick up mull over, think about and put together to form a picture. Foreshadowing is frequent and often, and picking up on things which later get called back to are immensely satisfying.

The series even gives out bonus “good player” points for paying attention.

Not only that, but it’s a series which frequently has cutscenes of 30-45 minutes of length, Sometimes even approaching an hour. The story is clearly something the developers spend a lot of time, effort, and money on and hope players spend a lot of time watching.

It feels ridiculous when people say “you shouldn't be paying attention to the kind of details that the series has trained you to look for," or "stop caring about the quality of the story in this game which spends lots of time focusing on the story."


Super Jay Mann posted:

The logistics are questionable as you've clearly pointed out, but it's a story, sometimes you just gotta roll with it.

I think I heard somewhere that in writing, readers will accept one free coincidence. I think that's a good guideline. Usually, that free coincidence should be reserved for the thing which is needed to make your plot happen in the first place. The free coincidence ("spontaneously appearing AI")is fine. But when the story starts piling lots and lots of coincidence or contrivance straws onto the camel’s back, that camel is going to need a vet.

Super Jay Mann posted:

And I think it was rather disingenuous to lazily compare the whole thing to "somehow Palpatine returned" which was a narrative thread with actually zero leadup and questionable logic even within the context of the universe it happened in.

I disagree. See the list of contrivances and coincidences needed for the AI to pull off all the things it did without anyone noticing anything amiss.

JavaJesus
Jul 4, 2007

I completely disagree that spontaneously appearing AI is "a free coincidence". The scene in the prison specifically invoked two major upheaval events: Mariabell turning all of Crossbell into a magic redirection machine, and the ancient curse that covered all of Erebonia and Crossbell. Both of those events are either directly related to Sept-Terrions or at the same level of power as Sept-Terrions, and I walked away from that scene thinking that it made perfect sense for them to have unintended consequences. Mariabell's shenanigans laid the groundwork for a major melding of magic and technology, and the power of the curse triggered and uplifted that groundwork into an unexpected entity.

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013


I mean game reminds me a lot of TC, which is another game of this series with a similar format and structure at points, that to an even greater extent has a plot that is primarily instrumental to allow for the character exploration and structure that the game is pursuing so I don't think Reverie betrays the series history or whatever. To me all them 30 min cutscenes or whatever aren't really about the intricacies of internet AI and its machinations but primarily they are about getting to see all your pals again and getting some character drama and this big plot is just an excuse for that to happen.

Granted I don't think Reverie is as focused as TC, instead of just having "the plot" as it were being almost entirely vestigal and only serving as a way to explore the new main character it has a half-assed storyline that once completed leaves the world at basically exactly where it was before the game occurred. I'm not saying "you should ignore the game's writing!" i'm saying "I kinda feel this whole thing is just an exuse to have Rufus and Rean literally overcome themselves to show their growth, to have the crossbell gang be the primary agents in freeing Crossbell from Governor Albarea and to have an adventure which can primarily be reused assets and a bunch of boss refights where everyone is here!" So the story being kinda whatever didn't bother me too much because I think the strong parts of the writing are these other aspects which are comparatively a much bigger part of the game.

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013

Ultimately, I simply don't think the plot is expecting me to be that invested in the internet AI so I can just kinda accept it has a lot of power. Like I accept the septerrions. Or the Aureole. And all these other powerful mystical things that exist in this world

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

One CS4 question - What exactly was going on with Irina's motivation for working with Osbourne? IIRC she said she was doing it contingent on Franz somehow returning, and changes her mind once she realizes he's not going to, but that's a really dumb reason to facilitate creating all these massive weapons of war for the imminent mega-war (and the idea that she only realizes that Franz isn't coming back after the events on the Gargantua is also silly).

Like, a lot of the other "excuses to fight some named characters" in CS4 are also kinda silly (the stuff at the Branch Campus being the height of this), but I can interpret them from the goofy lens of "fighting is actually pretty safe and no one really gets seriously hurt" thing that Trails has going on.


Gameplay related comment - the Divine Knight battle against Arianrhod was really loving hard, at least on Hard mode. They're so fast! I was worried that I might even need to reload an earlier save to stock up on Divine Knight healing items, but fortunately I managed to pull it off by using both Elliot and Musse as partners to maximize my healing output.

SyntheticPolygon posted:

It's dumb but perhaps i'm just projecting my own disinterest in it here but the game never felt like it cared too much about the overarching story as it were. Its largely just instrumental to put the pieces in play that the game actually cares about, and I was fine with that.

This has always been my interpretation of anything in the game involving logistics. I file it into the same mental category as "why all the villages in RPGs have like <20 people in them."

Like yeah, it doesn't really make much sense that Ouroboros can manufacture all this poo poo. But the stated scale of stuff also doesn't match what we visually see (outside of maybe Heimdallr itself, where it's visually presented as you just visited these small areas within the city). Crossbell is kind of the peak of this abstraction, where you can literally walk from one side of the city to the other in-game and it's probably <1000ft, but if you look out at the city from Orchis Tower you can see it's supposed to be this huge realistically-sized city.

Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Aug 18, 2023

Tesseraction
Apr 5, 2009

Ytlaya posted:

One CS4 question - What exactly was going on with Irina's motivation for working with Osbourne? IIRC she said she was doing it contingent on Franz somehow returning, and changes her mind once she realizes he's not going to, but that's a really dumb reason to facilitate creating all these massive weapons of war for the imminent mega-war (and the idea that she only realizes that Franz isn't coming back after the events on the Gargantua is also silly).

She outright states that she wanted to believe her husband was back, but that after the events when you fight her that she realises it was her own naďve wish to see her beloved again that blinded her to the fact that Black Alberich is not the man she fell in love with and has taken advantage of her emotions. As to why she built the robots? Money. She is a businesswoman to a fault, which is why she hosed over her own father to take over the company.

SgtSteel91
Oct 21, 2010

Ytlaya posted:

One CS4 question - What exactly was going on with Irina's motivation for working with Osbourne? IIRC she said she was doing it contingent on Franz somehow returning, and changes her mind once she realizes he's not going to, but that's a really dumb reason to facilitate creating all these massive weapons of war for the imminent mega-war (and the idea that she only realizes that Franz isn't coming back after the events on the Gargantua is also silly).

Like, a lot of the other "excuses to fight some named characters" in CS4 are also kinda silly (the stuff at the Branch Campus being the height of this), but I can interpret them from the goofy lens of "fighting is actually pretty safe and no one really gets seriously hurt" thing that Trails has going on.


Gameplay related comment - the Divine Knight battle against Arianrhod was really loving hard, at least on Hard mode. They're so fast! I was worried that I might even need to reload an earlier save to stock up on Divine Knight healing items, but fortunately I managed to pull it off by using both Elliot and Musse as partners to maximize my healing output.

This has always been my interpretation of anything in the game involving logistics. I file it into the same mental category as "why all the villages in RPGs have like <20 people in them."

Like yeah, it doesn't really make much sense that Ouroboros can manufacture all this poo poo. But the stated scale of stuff also doesn't match what we visually see (outside of maybe Heimdallr itself, where it's visually presented as you just visited these small areas within the city). Crossbell is kind of the peak of this abstraction, where you can literally walk from one side of the city to the other in-game and it's probably <1000ft, but if you look out at the city from Orchis Tower you can see it's supposed to be this huge realistically-sized city.

My take with the Irina stuff is that with the Mobilization Act RF is kind of forced by the government to help with the war effort. She’s also deep down a romantic so part of her did wish Franz did come back or was at least somewhere deep inside Black Alberic. The scene in the Gargantua was both her realizing that Fran was gone and also to show Sharon that her contract was still in place so she could have an excuse to come back to Class 7s side. The stuff with the Main campus was just pride preventing them from just defecting, and they wanted Class 7 and the branch campus to beat them so they could know Class 7/the Branch campus had the strength to back up their convictions and also maybe help bring Cedric back to his senses. Standard shounen stuff, really

MythosDragon
Jan 3, 2016

Irina is also just on the very short list of bad characters in Trails.

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Are... are you quite sure you really want to say that?
Taco Defender

Ytlaya posted:

One CS4 question - What exactly was going on with Irina's motivation for working with Osbourne? IIRC she said she was doing it contingent on Franz somehow returning, and changes her mind once she realizes he's not going to, but that's a really dumb reason to facilitate creating all these massive weapons of war for the imminent mega-war (and the idea that she only realizes that Franz isn't coming back after the events on the Gargantua is also silly).

Aside from her personal motivation, there's also the law - the Imperial Mobilization Act, which mandates cooperation. Even if Irina wasn't an amoral business tycoon, if she disobeys the governments orders, she could be ousted from her company and someone else more cooperative put in place to run it. After Irina gives up on the idea of Franz having returned, she still has to cooperate with the government, but since she's still in charge, she can slow-walk production.

Still not a great person, but there is a reason.

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
(Reverie discussion) Actually remembered one comment vis-a-vis how did they get the materials for the tower: Erika makes a comment about them dismantling the railway guns and Gargantua-class airships. That'd certainly get you a lot of metal.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

I'm in the final Michelin part in CS4 now (this time with access to all social events thanks to the clear save bond point stuff), and this game really needs to let the other old class VII characters have their relationships. It continues to play coy with the actually good pairings like Gaius/Linde (this one is probably my favorite) and Machias/Patiry, while being far more enthusiastic/direct about the absolute worst ones like Agate/Tita and Jusis/Millium. Also what in the world is up with the George/Angelica situation? Other characters act like it's a thing, but I don't remember the actual characters themselves doing so.

I'm also rooting for Sharon/Anton just because that's really funny. Let Anton date the Ouroboros Enforcer.


Tesseraction posted:

She outright states that she wanted to believe her husband was back, but that after the events when you fight her that she realises it was her own naďve wish to see her beloved again that blinded her to the fact that Black Alberich is not the man she fell in love with and has taken advantage of her emotions. As to why she built the robots? Money. She is a businesswoman to a fault, which is why she hosed over her own father to take over the company.

Yeah, but it didn't really make sense to me that *that* would be the thing that made her change her mind. Black Alberich had done a ton of even more insane stuff before that, so it was a kind of arbitrary moment for her to change her mind. Like sure, you can write the story as happening in that way, but it's not a very good way to handle that plot/character beat.

The best way I can personally explain it is that maybe Irina was already planning to defect before that confrontation even took place (similar to the Main Campus students/teachers you fight at the Branch Campus). That gets rid of the "why now?" issue, and you can use the similar kinda-goofy-but-consistent reasoning of "she wanted to check for herself whether Class 7+friends have what it takes." Which is basically the same reason 90% of the "sympathetic bad guy" characters fight you in CS4.

Edit: One character I actually thought was handled pretty well was George. I felt like his motives were pretty plausible - he's suddenly confronted with these memories and has an internal conflict between his background and the person he became while under the amnesia/hypnosis. And on multiple occasions he behaves in way that make sense given this internal conflict he has. And on a basic "personal demeanor" level, the way he talks is consistent with "guy who is trying to suppress how he feels." He definitely works a lot better than Lechter or Claire. The game obviously tries to treat them similarly, but their reasons and behavior are a lot less coherent.

Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Aug 18, 2023

Tesseraction
Apr 5, 2009

Ytlaya posted:

The best way I can personally explain it is that maybe Irina was already planning to defect before that confrontation even took place (similar to the Main Campus students/teachers you fight at the Branch Campus). That gets rid of the "why now?" issue, and you can use the similar kinda-goofy-but-consistent reasoning of "she wanted to check for herself whether Class 7+friends have what it takes." Which is basically the same reason 90% of the "sympathetic bad guy" characters fight you in CS4.

I would say this is pretty accurate to her behaviour yes.

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013

I think she also mostly just wanted to keep an eye on Sharon.

Thoom
Jan 12, 2004

LUIGI SMASH!
I'm conflicted as to whether the George Nome. G. Nome. Gnome. GET IT!? GET IT!? reveal is the best or dumbest part of George's arc.

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Are... are you quite sure you really want to say that?
Taco Defender

Junpei posted:

(Reverie discussion) Actually remembered one comment vis-a-vis how did they get the materials for the tower: Erika makes a comment about them dismantling the railway guns and Gargantua-class airships. That'd certainly get you a lot of metal.

Yes, certainly. But just LOOK AT IT. I'm skeptical about that amount being enough for a literal mountain built from the bottom of a lake which goes taller than Orchis Tower, plus a fleet of Zauber Soldats, plus a fleet of super-Goliath soldats. Even if the mountain is hollow.


Ytlaya posted:

The best way I can personally explain it is that maybe Irina was already planning to defect before that confrontation even took place (similar to the Main Campus students/teachers you fight at the Branch Campus). That gets rid of the "why now?" issue, and you can use the similar kinda-goofy-but-consistent reasoning of "she wanted to check for herself whether Class 7+friends have what it takes." Which is basically the same reason 90% of the "sympathetic bad guy" characters fight you in CS4.

I mean, Alisa says pretty directly that even if her mother actually has no moral compass whatsoever, she still has no motive for participating in a civilization-collapsing enterprise. That makes sense, the collapse of civilization would absolutely tank all the stock prices, and Reinford makes a lot of consumer-facing products, that'd kill a lot of their own market. The status quo is GOOD for Reinford.

Nereidum
Apr 26, 2008

Ytlaya posted:

Also what in the world is up with the George/Angelica situation? Other characters act like it's a thing, but I don't remember the actual characters themselves doing so.

I think they've been hinting at it as at least a one-sided thing for a while. There's a scene in the final chapter of CS1 where Towa and George are talking about whether Angelica will be able to make it to the festival, and it's subtly implied that Towa suspects that George has a crush on Angelica. Then, in CS2, there's some dialog after you get Angelica aboard the Courageous where Towa says, "It looks like my suspicions about George were right on the money," but refuses to elaborate on it to Rean, who has no idea what she's talking about.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Thoom posted:

I'm conflicted as to whether the George Nome. G. Nome. Gnome. GET IT!? GET IT!? reveal is the best or dumbest part of George's arc.

It owns.

I imagine it hits a bit differently in Japanese (it's still basically the same thing, but I imagine it's a bit less obvious since they usually just refer to the Gnomes as "chisei" (which I think is just "gnome" in Japanese, but it does make it a bit less obvious visually/phonetically).

George's actual name of "Copper Georg" is actually pretty cool IMO.

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
"chisei" literally translates as 'ground/earth person' right?

Thoom
Jan 12, 2004

LUIGI SMASH!
I think "spirit" rather than "person" would be closer, but basically yes

Thoom
Jan 12, 2004

LUIGI SMASH!
Also, does Copper Georg imply the existence of Iron Ringo, Mythril Paul and Orichalcum John?

Tesseraction
Apr 5, 2009

Thoom posted:

Also, does Copper Georg imply the existence of Iron Ringo, Mythril Paul and Orichalcum John?

You are no longer welcome at the convention.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

Thoom posted:

Also, does Copper Georg imply the existence of Iron Ringo, Mythril Paul and Orichalcum John?

Dunno but there is (CS4 spoilers) The engineer formerly known as Franz

Tesseraction
Apr 5, 2009

You are also no longer welcome at the convention.

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFAOBOtVMo0

Hwurmp
May 20, 2005

Trrrrrrrrrrrails

kirbysuperstar
Nov 11, 2012

Let the fools who stand before us be destroyed by the power you and I possess.
seitz rules

Last Celebration
Mar 30, 2010
(Zero, Finale) I’m still in the middle of the hospital stuff, but I was genuinely not seeing “spacey fishing addict doctor might actually be evil, and we beefed it bad when we asked him for a drug analysis” as a plot twist. Genuinely very excited to see how wild things get from here even if it definitely feels like the game went from zero to a hundred at this point.


Man I sure missed out playing this on the vita first. Good thing CS1/2 are on sale!

Hwurmp
May 20, 2005

kirbysuperstar posted:

seitz rrrrrrrrrrules

Last Celebration posted:

(Zero, Finale) I’m still in the middle of the hospital stuff, but I was genuinely not seeing “spacey fishing addict doctor might actually be evil, and we beefed it bad when we asked him for a drug analysis” as a plot twist.

he had a portrait

never trust eccentric men with glasses

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

Bad tradecraft by the Calvardian agent.

Last Celebration
Mar 30, 2010

Hwurmp posted:

he had a portrait

never trust eccentric men with glasses


Crossbell/Cold Steeli really like the artist they’ve been using from (I think?) trails from zero onwards so it felt like a bit of a shame to just have the 3D face as a character “portrait” in dialogue in Cold Steel and beyond, but it’s probably the right move to obfuscate twists like the one NPC secretly being a loving gralsritter, which is probably still the funniest instance of an airheaded eccentric guy not being what he seems. Which as I type it now, makes me realize they deliberately subverted their established trope by making one of them a holy secret agent of god.

Last Celebration fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Aug 19, 2023

Cyouni
Sep 30, 2014

without love it cannot be seen

Last Celebration posted:

i really like the artist they’ve been using from (I think?) trails from zero onwards so it felt like a bit of a shame to just have the 3D face as a character “portrait” in dialogue in Cold Steel and beyond, but it’s probably the right move to obfuscate twists like the one teacher (Thomas?) secretly being a loving gralsritter, which is probably still the funniest instance of an airheaded eccentric guy not being what he seems. Which as I type it now, makes me realize they deliberately subverted their established trope by making one of them a holy secret agent of god.

That's CS2 NG+ (or CS3) spoilers, for anyone who missed it.

Last Celebration
Mar 30, 2010

Cyouni posted:

That's CS2 NG+ (or CS3) spoilers, for anyone who missed it.

I figured CS2 stuff was kinda old news compared to Zero to Azure being pretty recent officiall localizations but it’s probably better to be on the safe side tbh

MythosDragon
Jan 3, 2016

Last Celebration posted:

Crossbell/Cold Steeli really like the artist they’ve been using from (I think?) trails from zero onwards so it felt like a bit of a shame to just have the 3D face as a character “portrait” in dialogue in Cold Steel and beyond, but it’s probably the right move to obfuscate twists like the one NPC secretly being a loving gralsritter, which is probably still the funniest instance of an airheaded eccentric guy not being what he seems. Which as I type it now, makes me realize they deliberately subverted their established trope by making one of them a holy secret agent of god.

One of my favorite characters in the series.

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
By the way went down a little rabbit hole looking up where "Buzhihuo" came from. So, it's the Chinese reading of the kanji/characters that make up the Japanese word "Shiranui"-which is their rough equivalent to the will-of-the-wisp.

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Erpy
Jan 30, 2015
(insert title here)

Thoom posted:

Also, does Copper Georg imply the existence of Iron Ringo, Mythril Paul and Orichalcum John?

I kinda feel it was a shame it didn't. (Cold Steel spoilers and a little bit of Azure)

While the Hexen clan has a cozy podunk village as their home base inhabited by retired-after-starting-a-family adult witches, teenage witches using their siblings as guinea pigs, child witches adopting random monsters as familiars, crabby elder witches as well as the prospect of wandering witches, like that hostess in Rachel, their tribe feels like an actual group of people.

Ditto with the Red Constellation when they're first introduced. Aside from the reluctant commander Sigmund, we get loose-cannon-Shirley, subcommanders Zax and Gareth and whole platoons of faceless mooks who still have the tendency to go "Yo, how's it hanging these days, Captain Randolph?" whenever you prepare to engage them.

The Gnomes are presented as this counterpart to the Hexen clan, with a massive underground base the size of a small city, but whenever CS4 talks about the Gnomes, it's really just Alberich and Georg. (and even the latter drops out during Act 3) The presence of more Gnomes, metal beatles or otherwise, would have made them feel more like a group and less than a name two guys called themselves.

Same with Zephyr. They're presented as one of Zemuria's toughest corps, who could give the Red Constellation (with all its platoons) a run for its mira, but during the Cold Steel games, it's really just Fie's two honorary uncles. CS2 waves this away saying the other members are somewhere else "working to bring back the boss", but not only does CS4 show that the process of resurrecting people as Awakeners doesn't actually take the labor of whole platoons of jaegers, but even after Rutger is brought back, Zephyr remains just a name two three guys call themselves. I kinda missed the mook platoons going "Yo Silpheed, what's up these days" in the latter Cold Steel games.

It's a weird snag in Falcom's usual world-building.

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