|
The Jones thing with regards to text messages, as I recall it, is that during the first Sandy Hook trial, he was in the courtroom early on during the beginning of the trial. He was talking to the HBO documentarian, but court was still setting up and the YouTube livestream was already on. People who were watching it claim Jones told the documentarian "they don't have my texts," in reference to how he purposefully stonewalled the trial and refused to participate in the discovery process. This is what was claimed to have happened, but as the YouTube livestream is not an official court record, there isn't any "legal" evidence Jones actually said the thing people heard him say. (... not that it matters, because the "Perry Mason moment" rendered it a moot point anyway.) The texts that were "discovered" as a result of that predate anything related to Jan 6th by about two years, though. The current best-operating-theory is that Jones himself was low on the totem pole regarding the attempted insurrection. Jones and his media operation was a resource for those higher up to move around and direct as needed, which is why Stone and Cheesebro are seen nearby at a frequent rate. Jones wouldn't have been responsible for anything himself. If any racketeering suits were filed, he might need to worry then; but he was in DC on the day of, and right now only Georgia is going down the RICO route. Morroque fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Aug 18, 2023 |
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 19:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 18:58 |
|
|
The Bible posted:Yeah, I get that, but even at much lower tiers, poor people really do have a significant disadvantage in court. I guess it was just jarring to see a lawyer actually laugh about it. People are laughing about it because "oops, my MyCrimes.txt is 10 million pages long" is the very definition of a self-inflicted injury. It's like if you gun someone down in broad daylight in front of a thousand people, and then complain to the judge that hundreds of eyewitness interviews are too much to go through in discovery. If you're having discovery problems because the government has too much evidence of your crimes and it's overwhelming your lawyers, then discovery is the least of your problems.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 19:28
|
|
|
Minority Report was right all along. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVGQHw9jrsk
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 19:29
|
|
|
bird food bathtub posted:Google-fu is failing me so I'm going off vague memory, wasn't there something in Jones' trial where he said something along the line of "They got all of my texts? Even the senator?"
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 19:35
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:To be clear I do think people with healthy brains have something in the ballpark of free will. But very few criminal defendants are people with healthy brains. Trump sure as hell isn't. Basically anybody making the active decision to do a crime probably has something wrong with their brain. Sometimes you get a client who is such a gigantic rear end in a top hat that it's functionally a competency issue but that should count For a variety of reasons it's probably not a good idea to tie mental illness with committing crimes. If that's not what you're going for then I apologize for misinterpreting, but it does sound like that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 19:39
|
|
|
InsertPotPun posted:i know jones said on his show something about "being in contact with the white house" about january 6th which everyone blew off as bluster He also said he was in telepathic contact with Trump so maybe don’t believe Alex.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 19:40
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:To be clear I do think people with healthy brains have something in the ballpark of free will. But very few criminal defendants are people with healthy brains. Trump sure as hell isn't. Basically anybody making the active decision to do a crime probably has something wrong with their brain. Sometimes you get a client who is such a gigantic rear end in a top hat that it's functionally a competency issue but that should count What about people who speed, j walk, shoplift and cheat on their taxes?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 19:49
|
|
|
Grip it and rip it posted:What about people who speed, j walk, shoplift and cheat on their taxes? Those are technically unknowable. The precogs canonically can only predict murders because of the psychic power of the event. Minor crimes don't generate powerful enough psychic energy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 19:56
|
|
|
Angry_Ed posted:For a variety of reasons it's probably not a good idea to tie mental illness with committing crimes. If that's not what you're going for then I apologize for misinterpreting, but it does sound like that. Statistically speaking, people with mental illness are more likely to be crime victims than perpetrators. Like, far and away. But once you select for the group of (people charged with crime)(I don't like the word "criminals" there's no such class), that group has disproportionately high rates of various kinds of brain disorder, whether that's just plain low IQ, mental illness, traumatic brain injury, addiction (if we're counting that as a brain disorder, which we probably should), past history of trauma, etc. We have to be able to talk about how the legal system preferentially traumatizes the vulnerable. That doesn't mean people who have mental illness are more likely to be criminals. Get your venn diagrams out here, folks. Grip it and rip it posted:What about people who speed, j walk, shoplift and cheat on their taxes? People who get arrested for speeding are usually just driving while the wrong skin color OR high as balls / young / loving stupid. People who get arrested for jaywalking are just walking while poor or black, white people and rich people don't get arrested for that ever Shoplifting is either kids being dumb OR the saddest loving thing you'll ever see, there's a reason the Walgreens' puts the baby formula in a locking cabinet, the real crime is that people need to steal food at all in this country, fund food stamps (EDIT: actually a lot of shoplifting charges are people stealing meat because drug dealers will often accept steaks for drugs. So, addiction). cheating on your taxes is unnecessary if you can afford a half-competent lawyer so again a crime of stupidity Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Aug 18, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 19:57
|
|
|
Morroque posted:The current best-operating-theory is that Jones himself was low on the totem pole regarding the attempted insurrection. Jones and his media operation was a resource for those higher up to move around and direct as needed, which is why Stone and Cheesebro are seen nearby at a frequent rate. Jones wouldn't have been responsible for anything himself. If any racketeering suits were filed, he might need to worry then; but he was in DC on the day of, and right now only Georgia is going down the RICO route.  )The longerstanding Jones theory is the one I alluded to earlier. Joe Biggs, his former employee, was a leader of the Proud Boys attack and tore down the barriers on East plaza minutes before Jones (and Shroyer and Chesebro) arrived with their crowd. The theorizing is that this wasn't random, and Jones' role was, as you note, to use his legitimacy(?) to bring extra bodies for the Proud Boys (Who themselves, a level deeper in the fever swamps, were coordinating with Roger Stone to serve as distraction and the initial force to tip things over the edge so that the Oath Keepers could double back and get their arsenal to use against any capitol police and military who dared defend Pence and the congresspeople)
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 20:11
|
|
|
Paracaidas posted:Chesebro directing Jones' movements in any provable way would wrap all of this up very quickly. Any theory on that front is something to be very cautious of (the fastmoving iteration I've seen is that Chesebro raised his hat twice while watching Jones There is already documented evidence of Jones's actions being directed by Roger Stone and Ali Alexander, both on the day of and at several points in the months beforehand. Kenneth Chesebro is a relatively new face in this regard, and the sources who study Jones more seriously haven't really had a chance to notice him. It's not impossible that Kenneth was involved, but it would've needed to be at a level at least twice removed. But again, Chesebro is only on the hook for stuff done in Georgia. His actions in DC on the day of, while interesting and incriminating in some respects, might be a separate matter entirely.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 22:01
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2023 23:19
|
|
|
KillHour posted:This is my problem with the whole thing. I was asked earlier what I would change and my answer is probably "everyone gets a public defender and the government pays for all legal defense in the same way they pay for all prosecution." It's not a great solution because it feels wrong that you can't contribute towards your own defense monetarily, but it's the only thing that seems remotely fair. Do you not realize the implications of the idea that if the government decides to put you in a cage the only people allowed to defend you are the government? Thousands, if not millions, of people have died trying to free us from systems that work like that. It's like saying the answer to corrupt Congress critters is going back to having a king.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 00:08
|
|
|
H.R. Hufflepuff posted:Dude, you're the one bringing up this weird phrenology-adjacent "Maybe criminals are actually just mentally predisposed to be criminal" nonsense. No, I'm not. That's not remotely what I said, and if you think it is, you are wrong. America's three largest mental health hospitals all happen to be prisons. The reason for that is not that people who have mental health challenges are somehow uniquely criminal. People with mental illness are far more likely to be crime victims than the general population. For the same reasons, though, those people tend to also be victimized by our legal system, so they end up behind bars more often. Cops are more likely to be called on them, more likely to abuse them when they respond. They're less able to defend themselves in court, less likely to be able to complete diversion programs, on and on and on. The net effect is that when you look at people who end up behind bars a wildly disproportionate number have some form of disability (mental, intellectual, etc). It has nothing to do with "phrenology" or the concept of a class of people who are "criminals." It's just that our legal system punishes the vulnerable and they're vulnerable so they get more punished than everyone else does. The concept underlying the word "criminal" is fairly bankrupt. Nobody is "a criminal." But virtually anybody is just one really bad day away from an arrest, and people with more difficulties have more bad days, and when they have bad days, they tend to be worse days than other people's. Most people who get arrested, it's a combination of bad luck and bad choices and usually those bad choices had trauma, disability, etc., as contributing factors. I mean, "the mentally ill" aren't a distinct class. Virtually everyone has some form of mental illness at some point in their lives. Anyone can get a brain injury. Virtually everyone has some degree of trauma history. But the more checkboxes you mark on the trauma scale the more likely you are to find yourself arrested later in life. Not because of any inherent "criminality" but just because the legal system is a system for punishing the vulnerable and the more vulnerable you are the more likely it is to punish you. The more you've already suffered the weaker and more vulnerable you are and that makes it easier for the system to inflict suffering on you the next time. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Aug 19, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 00:09
|
|
|
H.R. Hufflepuff posted:Dude, you're the one bringing up this weird phrenology-adjacent "Maybe criminals are actually just mentally predisposed to be criminal" nonsense. Why do you think people get arrested?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 00:58
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:People are laughing about it because "oops, my MyCrimes.txt is 10 million pages long" is the very definition of a self-inflicted injury. It's like if you gun someone down in broad daylight in front of a thousand people, and then complain to the judge that hundreds of eyewitness interviews are too much to go through in discovery. To be fair, I'm also laughing at the idea of putting price tags on all the costs for Trump's Defense like it matters if the bill is $0 or $10 Billion. Trump isn't getting a real rich guy defense. He's getting a bunch of crazy people who think that they'll be the one person that ol' Donnie finally pays. It's a clown car of criminals and incompetents. An actual public defender' office would almost certainly field a better team.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 01:23
|
|
|
Gyges posted:To be fair, I'm also laughing at the idea of putting price tags on all the costs for Trump's Defense like it matters if the bill is $0 or $10 Billion. Didn't at least one lawyer get a 7 figure retainer from Trump? I'm sure there are still a few true believers out there, but I'm sure there are also plenty of at least decent lawyers who will take the case for a truck full of money up front.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 01:27
|
|
|
Gyges posted:To be fair, I'm also laughing at the idea of putting price tags on all the costs for Trump's Defense like it matters if the bill is $0 or $10 Billion. It seems like his Ga attorney is competent enough on small cases. Whether hes up to something as big and complex as this, I couldn't say, but hes not an idiot I don't think .
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 01:36
|
|
|
Grip it and rip it posted:It seems like his Ga attorney is competent enough on small cases. Whether hes up to something as big and complex as this, I couldn't say, but hes not an idiot I don't think . If he didn't get his fee up front he is.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 01:52
|
|
|
Shooting Blanks posted:Didn't at least one lawyer get a 7 figure retainer from Trump? I'm sure there are still a few true believers out there, but I'm sure there are also plenty of at least decent lawyers who will take the case for a truck full of money up front. I forget his name but he got 3m up front, told Donald "cooperate with the feds in all particulars in the document case and beg for mercy". Donald said "no" and the lawyer said "okay I'll be over here if you need me". Kise I believe? I'm not up on his involvement in the current situations.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 01:52
|
|
|
Gyges posted:To be fair, I'm also laughing at the idea of putting price tags on all the costs for Trump's Defense like it matters if the bill is $0 or $10 Billion. Wasn't there an article a few weeks back that Trump has been draining his PAC on legal defenses? Something like 90% of the funds had been used for it?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 01:53
|
|
|
Grip it and rip it posted:It seems like his Ga attorney is competent enough on small cases. Whether hes up to something as big and complex as this, I couldn't say, but hes not an idiot I don't think . This is defending a former President against charges of trying to overthrow the government, and of major national security violations et al. You want to get the platinum level superstar of all time to defend you, this is straight to the history books. Trump doesn’t have access to those people any more because 1) he doesn’t pay and 2) he suborns his attorneys into becoming co-conspirators and 3) they have already worked for him in his administration and realize he’s loving nuts and a danger to America.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 01:53
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:To be fair, at this point I basically have a fundamental objection to the concept of "fault" and "punishment."
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 01:54
|
|
|
Google Jeb Bush posted:I forget his name but he got 3m up front, told Donald "cooperate with the feds in all particulars in the document case and beg for mercy". Donald said "no" and the lawyer said "okay I'll be over here if you need me". I'm pretty sure you're right. I think he got moved off to other legal work shortly afterward, but at least he got paid up front, and is likely smart enough to simply stop working the moment an invoice doesn't get paid.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 02:11
|
|
|
Nitrousoxide posted:I think you're reading too much into what I said. Private E-discovery firms rarely deal with criminal cases with large teams. There's just not a ton of criminal cases that require enormous review teams for the defense. The vast majority of cases that require large amounts of discovery are civil suits between two corporations, mergers, or data breaches which require notification of users. Alright, sorry for assuming maliciousness on your part. The post was super helpful for us non-lawyer types, btw.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 02:37
|
|
|
Paracaidas posted:This shouldn't get lost in thread bullshit - they've got Chesebro with Jones and Owen Shroyer in the restricted area on Jan 6. A big question since that day is if there was anything more than the tweets and Ellipse speech preceeding it and the phone calls to take advantage of it to tie Trump to the riot. That they're on video together doesn't prove anything on its own, but it's the first time this direct a path has opened. This doesn't make any sense. Where are Soros communications telling all the Antifa hoards to commit violence?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 02:38
|
|
|
Nieuw Amsterdam posted:This is defending a former President against charges of trying to overthrow the government, and of major national security violations et al. Even if he did pay and didn't turn his lawyers into co-conspirators, the man is mentally/physically incapable of shutting the gently caress up in a case that is built nearly entirely off the previous instances of him not shutting the gently caress up. Fighting a historic lawsuit, even with long odds, could probably entice some good fame hungry lawyers. An impossible case, where the client just keeps criming, while refusing to allow any defence that doesn't paint him as the greatest, most beloved man in history, is far less enticing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 03:08
|
|
|
The Artificial Kid posted:Punishment is real, but fault is an illusion. Punishment objectively (can) affect the behaviour of learning systems (that are capable of receiving punishment). But fault requires us to artificially segment causality within and outside human beings. Yeah, but there's a reason that professional animal trainers generally frown on negative reinforcement techniques these days and use only positive reinforcement. Negatice reinforcement is unpredictable and causes aide effect behaviors. The attempt to punish can change behavior but all you do is create an incentive to avoid the punishment not an incentive to actually behave positively in the desired way. Anyway sorry for the derail. Trump is basically a flatworm
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 03:09
|
|
|
Gyges posted:Even if he did pay and didn't turn his lawyers into co-conspirators, the man is mentally/physically incapable of shutting the gently caress up in a case that is built nearly entirely off the previous instances of him not shutting the gently caress up. I'm reminded of a quote from some anonymous WH aide or lawyer which was basically "We were having an emergency meeting on how to control the message on [insert bad news] and Trump just...said it. On live TV/Twitter."
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 03:20
|
|
|
Paracaidas, your post was a joy to read. Thank you. Hieronymous Alloy posted:To be clear I do think people with healthy brains have something in the ballpark of free will. But very few criminal defendants are people with healthy brains. Trump sure as hell isn't. Basically anybody making the active decision to do a crime probably has something wrong with their brain. Sometimes you get a client who is such a gigantic rear end in a top hat that it's functionally a competency issue but that should count The brain is the product of its environment, people in unhealthy environments (the various poverties, abuse, neglect, basic needs unmet) exhibit trauma, same as a bruised tomato. What is "wrong with their brain" is that it has suffered abuse and/or neglect, resulting in lasting traumas. If you, for analogy, plant a tomato seed in spring, and the plant that grows suffers neither abuse nor neglect, all its basic needs met - you will get delicious fruit. Inevitably. I believe, as firmly as i hold any belief, in the universality of human genius. As sure as i am that tomato seeds yield fruit. Uglycat fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Aug 19, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 03:52
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/KellDA/status/1692660244852142279 Seven? NY hush money NY civil case NY defamation case DC Jan 6th case FL docs case GA RICO case Which case am I missing?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 04:17
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:https://twitter.com/KellDA/status/1692660244852142279 When all these cases have been heard, all the evidence and testimony entered into the public record, there will be a higher charge with relatively few discovery documents.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 04:26
|
|
|
Donkringel posted:Wasn't there an article a few weeks back that Trump has been draining his PAC on legal defenses? Something like 90% of the funds had been used for it? This is 100% true by the way. His Super PAC is down to, in the context of these things, absolute peanuts, and that was before this hit. Per NYT Article: NYT posted:In February 2022, the PAC said it had $122 million in cash on hand. By the beginning of this year, that number was down to $18 million, filings show. More than $16 million of the money spent went to legal bills — some for witnesses in the investigations, but mostly to firms representing Mr. Trump.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 04:40
|
|
|
Uglycat posted:When all these cases have been heard, all the evidence and testimony entered into the public record, there will be a higher charge with relatively few discovery documents. The hand of God will appear before Trump and inscribe this indictment: MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN Your days are numbered. You have been weighed in the balance and found wanting. Your kingdom will be divided amongst your enemies.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 04:42
|
|
|
Morroque posted:
Chesebro is one of the unindicted co-conspirators in the DC case. He planned and wrote a lot of the strategy and methods of what happened. Including stuff to the effect that there should be a raging mob to help influence decision making by fence sitters. So, him being in DC and at the riot apparently directing the motions of at least some of the mob through Jones is pretty directly relevant to that case and directly ties back to Trump. It’s the first evidence that Trump may have had more to do with the violence that it previously appeared.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 05:12
|
|
|
Trumps legal defense fund page got hacked. https://patriotlegaldefensefund.com/ quote:DO NOT SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP'S FRAUDULENT It goes on.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 05:20
|
|
|
Uglycat posted:The brain is the product of its environment, people in unhealthy environments (the various poverties, abuse, neglect, basic needs unmet) exhibit trauma, same as a bruised tomato. What is "wrong with their brain" is that it has suffered abuse and/or neglect, resulting in lasting traumas. I have a theory that the last really seriously meaningful decision Donald Trump made in his entire life was "I would like to be the kind of person that Fred Trump would wish to make his heir" and everything else has followed from the hollow shell that came from that. in military boarding shool he was a bit of a dickhead, but a dickhead in normal human ways who enjoyed normal human things, and lots of people have gone through that experience without becoming, well, you know
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 05:26
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:https://twitter.com/KellDA/status/1692660244852142279 Is he genuinely leading in any polls that matter or is it just the ones that are him vs the 6~ piles of poo poo with ties who have have single digit support for the Republican nomination?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 05:39
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:https://twitter.com/KellDA/status/1692660244852142279 This one. I hadn't heard about it either until I saw this Maddow piece. https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1688969803120144384?t=VD_s2_vw5Rdhl1EVYstbnQ&s=19 Basically he was the spokesman for a scam company. It was for video phones (back before FaceTime was a thing) and people gave the company money for the opportunity to sell these crappy phones to other people. Problem was, the video feature only worked if the other person also had this exact video phone. So of course nobody bought them and these people were left with a garage full of stupid expensive video phones that nobody wants. Maddow explains it better than I do in that clip.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 05:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 18:58 |
|
|
The Flying Milton posted:Is he genuinely leading in any polls that matter or is it just the ones that are him vs the 6~ piles of poo poo with ties who have have single digit support for the Republican nomination? Yes. He will be the Republican nominee. They don't care about his crimes.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2023 05:55
|
|
