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fatherboxx)
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Cpt_Obvious posted:This is literally what happened. As a matter of practice, the ethical concerns of killing a few civilians pretty much vanish in the course of defending yourself in a war of national survival. Tough break for that guy. Oh well. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 20, 2023 15:58
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lilljonas posted:The difference is mainly (except for more planes = more better) is that a small fleet of F-16 means they can now use NATO produced missiles of various types that their MIGs were not compatible with. So both more missiles = more better, but also new types of anti-radar missiles, longer range anti-air missiles etc. So this is bad news for Russia’s air force. The Russians are using super long range heavy missiles (R-33 or R-40 if I recall) designed for shooting down bombers and AWACS from beyond the range of fighter cover. These missiles aren’t as effective as smaller ones they have like their active guided missiles for fighter aircraft. Nevertheless the tactic they’re using is to linger outside UAF anti air range lobbing these missiles at Ukrainian aircraft to disrupt their activities and keep them on the defensive. They have plenty of these due to Cold War stockpiles and it suppresses the Ukrainian airforce. There’s nothing the F-16 has in terms of its radar or missile complement that can let F-16s get close enough to engage these Russian jets and thus their use is pretty limited. All this complement of F-16s does is improve Ukrainian air defence and allows them to engage a few targets of opportunity close to the front. But it doesn’t level the playing field in any meaningful way.
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Aug 20, 2023 16:03
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It depends on what weapons they are given imo. Standoff stuff could be very useful. But for Air to air, yeah they are disadvantaged
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Aug 20, 2023 16:05
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lilljonas posted:Ukraine getting F-16s from Netherlands and Denmark: I posted this a couple days ago and it went completely ignored for more bridge chat. It’s a good development that this is all handled now. There is speculation that Ukraine might have the airframes before the winter which is huge.
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Aug 20, 2023 16:10
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Owling Howl posted:It's my impression that the usefulnes is mainly in longer range ground attack systems to supplement HIMARS and add some capability in range and payload - not going after Russian planes. Realistically there is no way the F-16's primary role will be air defense for the simple reason that due to effective employment of Ukrainian air defenses and a lack of overall capability in the Russian airforce to overcome it, the Russian airforce has already been mostly relegated to trucking around standoff munitions from safety a hundred plus kilometers behind the front lines. Generally speaking there just isn't a lot needing to be shot down these days. What they'll primarily be doing is lobbing precision munitions at ground targets, including Russian air defenses from low altitude or long range. They can do this better than the 80's era Su-24's and MiG-29's the Ukrainians are using now both because they're more modern platforms (and designed for exactly that sort of mission against exactly that sort of threat) and because they can fully employ a huge range of NATO missiles and precision bombs designed for exactly the sorts of missions Ukraine needs to do. Missions like hitting air defenses operating cautiously along the front lines or throwing a whole lot of boom at a bridge or bunker in ways something like HIMARS cannot. But they'll also be a greater threat to Russian aircraft, supplementing ground based air defenses and making the types of sorties Russia is still able to conduct at low altitude more dangerous. If only because a radar in the air can see things a radar on the ground cannot, and a self contained supersonic anti-aircraft missile launch platform can respond to threats across a large front faster than a set of trailers being towed behind trucks. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Aug 20, 2023 |
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Aug 20, 2023 16:19
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The F-16s are useful but frankly if theres anyone that could use f-35s right now its Ukraine.Warbadger posted:Realistically there is no way the F-16's primary role will be air defense for the simple reason that due to effective employment of Ukrainian air defenses and a lack of overall capability in the Russian airforce to overcome it, the Russian airforce has already been mostly relegated to trucking around standoff munitions from safety a hundred plus kilometers behind the front lines. What they'll primarily be doing is lobbing precision munitions at ground targets, including Russian air defenses. They can do this better than the 80's era Su-24's and MiG-29's the Ukrainians have both because they're more modern platforms designed for exactly that sort of mission against exactly that sort of threat and because they can fully employ a huge range of NATO missiles and precision bombs designed to do the same. F-16s are important for air defense because the ongoing missile bombardments have attrited Ukrainian SAM stockpiles. Better air-to-air coverage means more assets can be used to shoot down missiles, and maintaining anti-air coverage of non-critical areas is much less important. TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Aug 20, 2023 |
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Aug 20, 2023 16:20
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Ukrainian air defense is likely very low on missiles. (The Western donated systems are good, but are in far too low numbers to cover an appreciable part of the country)
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Aug 20, 2023 16:22
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OddObserver posted:Ukrainian air defense is likely very low on missiles. (The Western donated systems are good, but are in far too low numbers to cover an appreciable part of the country) Sheer speculation. An air defense doesn’t have to shoot down every enemy airplane or missile. If the air over Ukraine was permissible for the Russians, they would be utilizing it. Not lobbing misses from across the border and having attack choppers regularly hit down.
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Aug 20, 2023 16:56
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Zhanism posted:Sheer speculation. An air defense doesn’t have to shoot down every enemy airplane or missile. If the air over Ukraine was permissible for the Russians, they would be utilizing it. Not lobbing misses from across the border and having attack choppers regularly hit down. It's not that their air defense is incapable of operating. It's that to maintain credible air defense, there's a strict limit on the assets they can allocate to and expend on anti-missile work.
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Aug 20, 2023 17:09
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Djarum posted:I posted this a couple days ago and it went completely ignored for more bridge chat. It was confirmed a few days that US greenlighted other countries to send f-16s. This is Ukraine saying that they have a deal with Netherlands and Denmark and planes will actually be sent.
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Aug 20, 2023 17:15
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lilljonas posted:Swedish news says 42 planes from Netherlands, yet unknown about Denmark. That’s… pretty nice. Danish news says 19 from Denmark and after thorough calculations I've arrived at a total of 61 donated F-16s.
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Aug 20, 2023 17:25
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Owling Howl posted:Danish news says 19 from Denmark and after thorough calculations I've arrived at a total of 61 donated F-16s. There's a timeline with that as well, with 6 planes aimed at being delivered by new year, another 8 planes during 2024 and the last 5 in 2025
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Aug 20, 2023 17:34
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Anders Puck-Nielsen has a new video about the F-16s, and in his opinion, they'll mostly come in handy to intercept missiles and won't be able to directly participate in the counteroffensive in any critical manner. He then goes on to make a point how their purpose is more for the long-term, since they'll have to bring their air force to NATO standards eventually and modernize it.
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Aug 20, 2023 18:27
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Noobicide posted:Every Ukrainian town becomes an Abu Ghraib and far worse if Russia wins. What do you think "filtration camps" are? Of course it's regrettable for the truck driver. None of this is good, but Putin's goal is to make Ukraine and Ukrainians not exist. Should they just accept genocide? Why leap into this false dichotomy territory where we have to be ok with the practice of turning civilians into unwitting suicide bombers or we're Genocide Accepters? maybe there's other options that don't involve accepting or encouraging a race to the moral bottom even if we accept that these atrocities get created by those who pursue wars of conquest and subjugation (and are therefore a super great reason not to do that in the first place) like cmon these hitlers arent even calm anymore, they going off
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Aug 20, 2023 18:41
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Ok. I'm very upset that Ukraine blew up a truck with a civilian inside. Now what.
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Aug 20, 2023 18:53
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Staluigi posted:Why leap into this false dichotomy territory where we have to be ok with the practice of turning civilians into unwitting suicide bombers or we're Genocide Accepters? maybe there's other options that don't involve accepting or encouraging a race to the moral bottom even if we accept that these atrocities get created by those who pursue wars of conquest and subjugation (and are therefore a super great reason not to do that in the first place) like cmon these hitlers arent even calm anymore, they going off Other options such as?
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Aug 20, 2023 18:59
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It's not a race to the moral bottom, one participant is doing a genocide and the other is not.
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Aug 20, 2023 18:59
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I don't even know who anyone is arguing with, it's not like there have been trolls coming into the thread to rile people up on this specific issue like the genocide-denial ones or the ones months ago who were posting pics of random Ukrainian soldiers with potentially fash tattoos to prove that glorious Russia is in the right.
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Aug 20, 2023 19:07
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James Garfield posted:It's not a race to the moral bottom, one participant is doing a genocide and the other is not. If its a race to the moral bottom then Ukraine has taken a couple of slow tentative steps from the starting line, whilst Russia has sprinted ahead several dozen miles
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Aug 20, 2023 19:10
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Quixzlizx posted:I don't even know who anyone is arguing with, it's not like there have been trolls coming into the thread to rile people up on this specific issue like the genocide-denial ones or the ones months ago who were posting pics of random Ukrainian soldiers with potentially fash tattoos to prove that glorious Russia is in the right. Ah, speaking of which...Zelensky dropped this the other day. https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1692101108397703283 enhance! 
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Aug 20, 2023 19:13
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Dante80 posted:Ah, speaking of which...Zelensky dropped this the other day. It is heritage, not hate (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 20, 2023 19:27
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hey mom its 420 posted:Anders Puck-Nielsen has a new video about the F-16s, and in his opinion, they'll mostly come in handy to intercept missiles and won't be able to directly participate in the counteroffensive in any critical manner.
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Aug 20, 2023 20:05
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Dante80 posted:Ah, speaking of which...Zelensky dropped this the other day. https://twitter.com/Hani_Iskander/status/1692148129725095992?s=20
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Aug 20, 2023 20:08
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lilljonas posted:Ukraine getting F-16s from Netherlands and Denmark: Netherlands have denied Zelensky's claim, they have 42 F-16's in total but they will look into how many can be given away. However many that is, hopefully they will be delivered sooner than later so Ukraine gets to start building operational experience with the equipment.
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Aug 20, 2023 20:14
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Nenonen posted:Netherlands have denied Zelensky's claim, they have 42 F-16's in total but they will look into how many can be given away. However many that is, hopefully they will be delivered sooner than later so Ukraine gets to start building operational experience with the equipment. Yeah it was always a hard cap on how long they would scrape by on what warsaw pact airframes could be scrounged up from Eastern Europe. Hopefully it’ll be just like with the tanks that this is just the official start of more countries supplying support.
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Aug 20, 2023 20:49
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Yes. Just like they famously shut down all nightclubs and bars during WWII.
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Aug 20, 2023 20:52
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Xiahou Dun posted:Yes. Just like they famously shut down all nightclubs and bars during WWII. Finland banned dancing 
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Aug 20, 2023 20:54
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Nenonen posted:Finland banned dancing The axis powers were famously bad dancers anyway.
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Aug 20, 2023 20:58
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Nenonen posted:Finland banned dancing Now thats an idea for Footloose remake
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Aug 20, 2023 21:28
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Of course if you outlaw dancing then only outlaws are dancing. This is off topic but I'll just briefly mention about one case out of many where young people have decided to take a record player to a barn and dance in secret. Except some prude notices and calls the cop and when the dancers realize this, they scatter into the night across fields. The teller of this account unfortunately had shoes made of paper, which was a thing because leather was in short supply, and had to run across a ditch, so the shoes quickly turned into pulp. Better keep the night clubs open, soldiers also like little R&R on their leaves.
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Aug 20, 2023 21:38
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Couple interesting reads I've come across today: On the Front Line, Ukrainian Commanders Are Buoyed to Be on the Offensive quote:In 18 months of war, Ukrainian land has mostly changed hands in sudden bursts, with Russia snatching a mass of territory at the start and Ukraine recapturing chunks in dramatic counterattacks. Now 10 weeks into its most ambitious counteroffensive, with heavy casualties and equipment losses, questions have been growing about whether Ukraine can punch through Russian lines. Obviously comes from a place where the interviewees have a big incentive to put a positive face on things, but good to hear nonetheless. ... As Ukraine flies through artillery rounds, U.S. races to keep up quote:The Biden administration’s sprint to supply Ukraine with weapons central to its military success against Russia has yielded a promising acceleration of arms production, including the standard NATO artillery round, output of which is expected soon to reach double its prewar U.S. rate of 14,000 a month.
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Aug 20, 2023 21:50
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Somaen posted:As a person with friends in Ukraine who have to go to bomb shelters every other day and who have lost family members to bombings and the invasion, i think that the war crimes of bombing civilian infrastructure of Ukraine that has lead to tens of thousands of dead far outweighs in scale the one bombing in September 2022 that disabled a military logistic artery, however the effort and time put into posts in the last page gives the impression that the gravity of the tragedies is equal if not tipped to the end of the bridge bombing As a person with friends in both Ukraine and Russia, lol get rekt and I’m glad I don’t have to read your one handed posts wishing you could be as badass as grandpa was in Talvisota for at least 30 days. Especially given you also post in the pregnancy thread I post in acting all cutesy and my russian rear end kids and russian rear end niece might get blown up in random civilian attacks and I’d come here and see you cheering it on because they also got a runway and some Aeroflot clunker or whatever Sorry mods hit me, I’ll take it (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 20, 2023 22:07
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The "Aeroflot clunker" is a strategic bomber. The same model that blew up plenty of civilians, and quite likely the same plane.
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Aug 20, 2023 22:12
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Has the bombing of civilian infrastructure lead to tens of thousands of dead? Latest OHCHR numbers are 9,369 dead civilians, over 2000 of which died in Russian held territory. For the period ending at the end of July. https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/07/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-31-july-2023
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Aug 20, 2023 22:18
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What the christ is anyone's actual in point in all of this? That war sucks and is immoral? That Ukraine did a bad thing that they decided was worth it to them, at that point in the war? Yes, you're all correct.
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Aug 20, 2023 22:19
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Weka posted:Has the bombing of civilian infrastructure lead to tens of thousands of dead? Latest OHCHR numbers are 9,369 dead civilians, over 2000 of which died in Russian held territory. For the period ending at the end of July. Here is what you should take note of most of all from that report quote:OHCHR believes that the actual figures are considerably higher, as the receipt of information from some locations where intense hostilities have been going on has been delayed and many reports are still pending corroboration. This concerns, for example, Mariupol (Donetsk region), Lysychansk, Popasna, and Sievierodonetsk (Luhansk region), where there are allegations of numerous civilian casualties. Mariupol is the largest city that has also been a ground of severe urban fighting for more than a month, with the city being under blockade and no reliable evacuation routes, with aviation bombs and Grads widely used. Death toll there alone is certainly in tens of thousands.
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Aug 20, 2023 22:24
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OddObserver posted:The "Aeroflot clunker" is a strategic bomber. The same model that blew up plenty of civilians, and quite likely the same plane. Supersonic nuclear bomber vs old airliner is an easy mistake to make, even a trained Buk crew on vacation could make the slip-up.
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Aug 20, 2023 22:24
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:As a person with friends in both Ukraine and Russia, lol get rekt and I’m glad I don’t have to read your one handed posts wishing you could be as badass as grandpa was in Talvisota for at least 30 days. Especially given you also post in the pregnancy thread I post in acting all cutesy and my russian rear end kids and russian rear end niece might get blown up in random civilian attacks and I’d come here and see you cheering it on because they also got a runway and some Aeroflot clunker or whatever Keep your kids and niece away from Crimea and Russian military installations and they'll be perfectly safe from Ukrainians, though I can't say the same about their fellow Russians.
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Aug 20, 2023 22:26
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:As a person with friends in both Ukraine and Russia, lol get rekt and I’m glad I don’t have to read your one handed posts wishing you could be as badass as grandpa was in Talvisota for at least 30 days. Especially given you also post in the pregnancy thread I post in acting all cutesy and my russian rear end kids and russian rear end niece might get blown up in random civilian attacks and I’d come here and see you cheering it on because they also got a runway and some Aeroflot clunker or whatever Why are you like the second idiot to assume I'm Finnish? I'm a non Russia born ethnic russian with family in Russia. I'm not "justifying" civilian deaths, but pointing out that if the logical calculus of any military sees more upsides to killing civilians while targeting military or militarily adjacent targets compared to reputational downsides, they will do it. This doesn't mean I lust for russian civilians to be killed. If you are too stupid to grasp that, then condolences to your family for being related to a moron Leave my infant out of it freak (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 20, 2023 22:31
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 05:35 |
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mutata posted:What the christ is anyone's actual in point in all of this? That war sucks and is immoral? That Ukraine did a bad thing that they decided was worth it to them, at that point in the war? Yes, you're all correct. - Ukraine has no right to self-defense because some troops have fascist armbands - Ukraine is sometimes doing bad things, the only acceptable path forward is to stop daily Russian war crimes by surrendering unconditionally and being absorbed into Russia's far-right mafia state - A strong and independent Russian state is a check on evil American power and therefore an unambiguous good in the world, never mind that they have nearly inextricable financial ties with the west even in war time - It's everyone else's fault that Russia is pissing their strength away by bungling an illegal invasion of a small neighbor and bleeding away their people and future in an unwinnable proxy war with the west
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Aug 20, 2023 22:39
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