|
western comic fans once again questioning "why dont they write stories where people enjoy themselves and have a nice time"
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 06:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 06:04 |
|
|
Alaois posted:western comic fans once again questioning "why dont they write stories where people enjoy themselves and have a nice time"
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 06:54
|
|
|
I'd argue the only viable long-term survival plan for Krakoa is to get the X-Men away from it since they, as superhero comics protagonists, are trouble magnets of an existential caliber. So either it gets burnt down by association or the characters we follow move away; either way it seems like it kind of has to be de-emphasized eventually
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 09:14
|
|
|
I think the whole reasons Krakoa's compelling is that it presents a challenge to tell different types of stories. That's why readers like it, and why it's fertile ground for creators: the normal stakes of superhero comics are upended there. Characters can't die for shock value, so you'd better think of something else interesting. The protagonists are part of a mature geopolitical power, so you can't tell stories about them being secret underdogs on the fringes of society. Writers have had to think of new stakes and new character dynamics to accommodate that. I thought Fall of X was/is fine but yeah, it would be a shame if this lead into a slow dismantling of the Krakoa era. I honestly see Krakoa as the X-Men finally escaping the orbit of their mansion in Westchester and moving onto stories that aren't an endless loop of "new student intake > mansion blows up > mutant genocide > we rebuilt the mansion > new student intake", interspersed with occasional baseball. The original stories that inspired that plot loop are great, but there's only so many times you can repeat them.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 11:41
|
|
|
Android Blues posted:Characters can't die for shock value Even Hickman admitted that this backfired immediately. One of the worst things about resurrection is that it let writers kill people without consequence. It sucks. I very much like the "mutants are hunted" story in Fall but I still think it came about suddenly and awkwardly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 12:38
|
|
|
danbanana posted:Even Hickman admitted that this backfired immediately. One of the worst things about resurrection is that it let writers kill people without consequence. It sucks. I just disagree. Blow people up every issue. I'm here for it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 13:01
|
|
|
instead of an execrable mini about the death of wolverine, just kill him off every other issue of x-force. it's honestly really funny.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 13:03
|
|
|
It was funny watching every X-Office writer find a new way to reinsert death with stakes. Mostly what I want out of more Krakoa is more characters who never get a chance to interact normally bouncing off of each other, especially in non-combat situations. The schools have a bit of this but Krakoa is a big catch all excuse for people to run into each other who normally would never.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 13:11
|
|
|
I feel like the X-Men franchise as a whole already killed characters without consequence, it just usually lead to awful plots that spread out over months or years. Like, when Nightcrawler died, then sacrificed his soul to come back to life, then was beaten to death by an anti-mutant mob but came back to life again because without a soul, he was turned back from the gates of Heaven - hokey, terrible, violent melodrama. All the character deaths in Rosenberg's Uncanny were written with the knowledge that Krakoa was coming, but it still felt cheap and insulting to have Wolfsbane be murdered in a hate crime for stakes. When characters die in the Krakoa era, that can't be the whole story. It has to lead to something or mean something else, because it isn't high impact or meaningful in itself. That's way more generative for writing good stories, I think.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 13:15
|
|
|
is this a good place to ask general “who are these people?” questions? i’ve started reading x-men starting with hox/pox and those weren’t too bad but now i’m reading excalibur and i don’t know who betsy braddock/captain britain or (the xman formerly known as) apocalypse are. also, is the “otherworld” new lore for this book or where did that come from?
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 13:56
|
|
|
Nessus posted:I think it's more wanting to play with the reality and avoid returning to the like, four or five back to back genocidal events, if only so "X-men" doesn't JUST mean "and the titular characters are being wiped out or exterminated". To paraphrase a podcast I like, why does every comic event have to be seventy-five 9/11s? I don’t need every story to be a lovely tea party, but maybe give me 12 months without something that kills millions of people—reversed at the climax or not.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 14:13
|
|
|
inferis posted:is this a good place to ask general “who are these people?” questions? i’ve started reading x-men starting with hox/pox and those weren’t too bad but now i’m reading excalibur and i don’t know who betsy braddock/captain britain or (the xman formerly known as) apocalypse are. also, is the “otherworld” new lore for this book or where did that come from? Very brief explanations with only the relevant bits, hopefully: Apocalypse is a villain introduced in the 1980s whose whole thing is a Darwinian "the strong shall rule" approach to society. He traditionally has four Horsemen named after the Biblical ones as his underlings. Most of his claim to fame comes from the 1995 story Age of Apocalypse which takes place in a universe where he conquered America and it's all hosed up and 90s. It's meant to be a very, very big deal that he and Xavier are shaking hands at the end of whatever issue of hoxpox that was. I think the whole deal with him and magic is introduced in Excalibur, although his backstory is totally insane so it might have been brought up previously. Captain Britain was a kind of generic character created for Marvel UK, a subsidiary that generally printed compilations of various Marvel stories for a British audience. Later on writing was taken over by Alan Moore in some of his first comics work. One of the big ideas of that run was the creation of the multiverse, where all the Captains Britain from various alternate universes get together in Otherworld and discuss the health of the multiverse and whatnot). Really, a lot of the basis of X of Swords comes from that Alan Moore stuff, and those stories are fantastic, so it's really worth picking up if you have the time. Apocalypse doesn't really have a signature story in that same way, since Age of Apocalypse is more about the world that he's created than Apocalypse himself. All the stuff with the various realms of Otherworld is new for X of Swords, though some of it is based on previous stories, like the character of Jim Jaspers. I'd be really interested to get your perspective as somebody starting with hoxpox; I know it's intended as a jumping on point but it's drawing from so much other stuff I imagine it's a really interesting way to get onboard.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 14:14
|
|
|
inferis posted:is this a good place to ask general “who are these people?” questions? i’ve started reading x-men starting with hox/pox and those weren’t too bad but now i’m reading excalibur and i don’t know who betsy braddock/captain britain or (the xman formerly known as) apocalypse are. also, is the “otherworld” new lore for this book or where did that come from? Betsy Braddock is the sister of the original Captain Britain and used to go by Psylocke, and was part of the X-Men initially during the Australia era. Her main powers are essentially the same as Jean Grey's, but she uses them differently and isn't as powerful. Being Captain Britain gives her some additional powers like super-strength and flight. She had her body switched with an Asian ninja (because all comic Asians are ninjas) named Kwannon in the '90s, but was switched back. Now Kwannon goes by Psylocke, so if you see her running around, that's who that is. Apocalypse is an ancient Egyptian(? - given the Amenth/Arakko stuff I'm not sure how this still fits in) mutant who believes in "survival of the fittest" but that's kind of evolved some over time. He first appeared in X-Factor in the '80s and notably turned Angel into Archangel as one of his Four Horsemen (he's consistently had four, but "Death" seems to be the revolving door between Angel, Caliban, Wolverine, and probably some others I'm forgetting). He also infected baby Cable with the techno-organic virus that looks like and acts like cybernetics. As of late, he's gotten into magic and adjusted his views so he wants to be called -|A|- and "survival of the fittest" means if you survive you're fit, not you must be fit to survive. Otherworld as a concept has its origins in Welsh and Celtic mythology and first appeared in Marvel as Avalon in the Lee/Kirby FF, and then was revived in the '70s as an intrinsic part of Captain Britain's lore.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 14:22
|
|
|
Rochallor posted:I'd be really interested to get your perspective as somebody starting with hoxpox; I know it's intended as a jumping on point but it's drawing from so much other stuff I imagine it's a really interesting way to get onboard. I'd read early X-Men (up to the introduction of the Phoenix?) before Hoxpox but that was about it, beyond knowing the movies and what I'd picked up from TV/movies, other comics, and general discussion. Hoxpox itself worked as a jumping on point because of that but the rest was hit and miss. Things like the Brood or (especially) Vulcan in Hickman's run fell absolutely flat for me and are some of my least favourite issues of the Krakoa era that I've read. Excalibur was a lot to take in and I'm still not sure how much I liked it overall (I dropped it some time after XoS). The stuff I've enjoyed most has been the more Krakoa-specific things like Hellions, SWORD, X-Factor, Immortal and Red. Marauders was okay but I think the people who were big fans of it were more attached to the characters than I was. With that being said I'm a bit behind (after Inferno, before Judgement Day) and am wondering what things other than Duggan's main title, Immortal and Red are worth picking up. People liked X-Terminators I think?
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 14:44
|
|
|
There are two podcasts that are great for people looking to catch up on X-Men, the first (and my personal favorite) is Jay and Miles X-plain the X-Men where they walk you through the ins, outs, and retcons of comics greatest superhero soap opera. They start (as Rachel and Miles before Jay pieced together a somewhat significant thing about himself) with the Silver Age and have been going bit-by-bit through X-history, it's a pretty massive back catalog--this week is episode 421 which takes them into the late 90's of continuity--but they're great hosts and it's really an accessible show plus they have wonderful interviews with writers scattered throughout. The other show is Cerebro which does single character deep dives, and I mean deep dives. The host, Connor Goldsmith, is a literary agent and a gay delight and his guests are incredible people with a wide array of backgrounds both comic and otherwise. That said, I haven't listened to it in a few years because the episode runtimes have become loving ridiculous and I just don't have that kind of time. The recent Apocalypse episode, with Johnathan Hickman as guest is 3:35 for example and the Madelyne Pryor episode is something like 18 loving hours long in five installments.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 14:46
|
|
|
I can't believe we haven't noted that Apocalypse is as far beyond mutants as mutants are beyond man.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 15:16
|
|
|
gimme the GOD drat candy posted:instead of an execrable mini about the death of wolverine, just kill him off every other issue of x-force. it's honestly really funny. Quentin Quire dying a new hillarious way in every issue was one of the best Krakoa era bits
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 15:29
|
|
|
I gotta say I've been doing my own read through from hox/pox on and x of swords is so bad it totally killed my desire to read comics for like a whole week. Ben Percy is so lucky he was giving the okay to just ignore it in his books completely
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 16:26
|
|
|
Endless Mike posted:I can't believe we haven't noted that Apocalypse is as far beyond mutants as mutants are beyond man. It only works when he says it. Also baller is "There exists no freedom from me, there is only freedom through me."
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 16:29
|
|
|
site posted:I gotta say I've been doing my own read through from hox/pox on and x of swords is so bad it totally killed my desire to read comics for like a whole week. Ben Percy is so lucky he was giving the okay to just ignore it in his books completely Completely relatable. I was buying everything but Fallen Angels until X of Swords dropped. It was so bad it tanked my interest in the whole line for ages.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 17:36
|
|
|
Android Blues posted:I think the whole reasons Krakoa's compelling is that it presents a challenge to tell different types of stories. That's why readers like it, and why it's fertile ground for creators: the normal stakes of superhero comics are upended there. Characters can't die for shock value, so you'd better think of something else interesting. The protagonists are part of a mature geopolitical power, so you can't tell stories about them being secret underdogs on the fringes of society. Writers have had to think of new stakes and new character dynamics to accommodate that. That endless loop is why I can't read Spider-Man comics any more. Peter is broke and alone -> something apparently good happens to him and he gains resources and allies -> turns out that thing was actually bad and explodes in his face, leaving him with all the blame -> Peter is broke and alone. Sisyphus isn't a storytelling model, he's in Hell. CapnAndy fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Aug 21, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 17:37
|
|
|
Codependent Poster posted:It's still a political marriage. I think a lot of it revolves around the Hellfire Club. Wilson Fisk is the new White King, Tony's still a member, I think Emma still is. I don't think we have all the details yet but it all points to some political maneuvering involving the Club and its resources. Wilson is the what now? Quick non-X question, why is Kingpin always free and up to no good? Wasn't he recently the villain of a big crossover and stuff in the Daredevil area? We gotta cool this guy off once in a while.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 17:58
|
|
|
Heavy Metal posted:Wilson is the what now? Quick non-X question, why is Kingpin always free and up to no good? Wasn't he recently the villain of a big crossover and stuff in the Daredevil area? We gotta cool this guy off once in a while.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:04
|
|
|
Yeah then he got free and joined Mary on Krakoa. Now he's helping the X-Men because he does appear to genuinely love Mary and maybe reform. Anyway it's a cool twist to see Fisk working with the X-Men.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:05
|
|
|
Heavy Metal posted:Wilson is the what now? Quick non-X question, why is Kingpin always free and up to no good? Wasn't he recently the villain of a big crossover and stuff in the Daredevil area? We gotta cool this guy off once in a while. Kingpin got married Typoid Mary for Krakoan citizenship. He recently signed on to the hellfire club as part of a long term scheme by Him /Emma. From the look of things this is less him being up to no good and more him taking advantage of a bad situation for some profit while being useful to our heroes. Probably will backstab later, though he does seem to care about Mary so it might be legit.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:07
|
|
|
Kingpin is absolutely gonna gently caress them over. Krakoa is gone, they can't give him immunity so he has no reason to play ball with the mutants anymore
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:14
|
|
|
site posted:I gotta say I've been doing my own read through from hox/pox on and x of swords is so bad it totally killed my desire to read comics for like a whole week. Ben Percy is so lucky he was giving the okay to just ignore it in his books completely i fell off the krakoa era in the middle of x of swords. are there any must reads between then and now? i have kept up with some stuff like way of x and x-men red, but it feels like there's been around 50 different series launched and ended since then i think my main issue with this era has been that they set up this new status quo and rather than digging into the ramifications or exploring what this new world could be like, they just kept pilling more and more big concepts. it's like they've been trying to stuff sixty years of x-men complexity into four years of comics.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:15
|
|
|
Parallax posted:i fell off the krakoa era in the middle of x of swords. are there any must reads between then and now? i have kept up with some stuff like way of x and x-men red, but it feels like there's been around 50 different series launched and ended since then Most fo the post x of swords stuff is good. Xmen red is a solid read, the mainline Xmen was okay. The big selling point for me was immortal Xmen. A series following the various quiet counsel members that led into sins of sinister. Sins is pretty much a solid read throughout.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:20
|
|
|
Parallax posted:i fell off the krakoa era in the middle of x of swords. are there any must reads between then and now? i have kept up with some stuff like way of x and x-men red, but it feels like there's been around 50 different series launched and ended since then Immortal X-Men is the big one X-Men has its highs and lows but it's decent the whole way through, it's been picking up the last few months with the fall of x stuff X-Force is surprisingly pretty good. I avoided that for a long time but binged the whole thing a couple weeks ago New mutants is like X-Men where there are highs and lows but honestly I would read it just for the Rod Reis art which is phenomenal X-Terminators was a very fun mini After that honestly the have been so many books off various length I can't even remember what is what off the top of my head. I haven't even started reading marauders or hellions or Wolverine yet site fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Aug 21, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:26
|
|
|
site posted:Kingpin is absolutely gonna gently caress them over. Krakoa is gone, they can't give him immunity so he has no reason to play ball with the mutants anymore I think with Mary missing, Kingpin has plenty of genuine motivation to work with the mutants, especially against her potential murderers. At least for the time being.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:31
|
|
|
Parallax posted:i fell off the krakoa era in the middle of x of swords. are there any must reads between then and now? i have kept up with some stuff like way of x and x-men red, but it feels like there's been around 50 different series launched and ended since then
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:34
|
|
|
Thanks for the Kingpin tidbits! I'm keeping an eye on that dude. By the way, there's a Claremont ave on one of my walking routes, and it makes me think of that great X-Men run. Speaking of classics, I see Weezie has a Jean Grey book coming out. Heavy Metal fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Aug 21, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:35
|
|
|
I loved X of Swords because it was a shonen tournament arc, even if a bit bloated
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:42
|
|
|
X of Swords was fun but it focused way too much on obtaining the swords and I would have liked a little more of, like, Saturnyne's dinner party
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:53
|
|
|
fatherboxx posted:Quentin Quire dying a new hillarious way in every issue was one of the best Krakoa era bits Yeah the many deaths of Quentin Quire (and Wolverine) ruled. I'm sure any show/movie probably wouldn't adapt the Krakoa era, but I would love to see a montage of those two biting it in missions like an action packed Groundhog Day.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 19:00
|
|
|
X of Swords was okay but really poorly paced.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 19:31
|
|
|
Rochallor posted:I'd be really interested to get your perspective as somebody starting with hoxpox; I know it's intended as a jumping on point but it's drawing from so much other stuff I imagine it's a really interesting way to get onboard. Thanks, your post and endless Mike’s were great summaries. Before now I had only read some 90s X-men random issues when I was younger. I’ve also been reading silver age and ultimate x-men at the same time and it’s cool to see themes and characters recurring in different ways, like I had just gotten done reading an ultimate arc where magneto was trying to set up proto krakoa at the North Pole. House of X and Powers of X were both awesome and the Powers of X double entendre gimmick was really fun. The only ones after that I’ve read were marauders, x-men, and Excalibur and I liked marauders the best but they’ve all had a good character or two. To some extent my experience is similar to what was described in the last few posts where they’ve set up a world and you can see what different characters do but it’s all slightly a letdown compared hox/pox because they aren’t as focused on exploring the premise and stakes of the world.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 19:55
|
|
|
The loose timeline, for what it's worth, of Kingpin in the 21st Century: 2002: Early in Bendis/Maleev's Daredevil run, he was busy Kingpinning when an underboss discovered that a) Daredevil is Matt Murdock and b) Fisk knew this for ages but kept the info to himself for a cat-and-mouse game. Said Underboss gathers people to execute Kingpin, Caesar-style, and dump his body in the river. 2003-4: Fisk survived but was blind and off in Europe recovering from the stabbings. He eventually gets his eyes fixed, returns to New York and gets back on his bullshit Kingpinning hard. Daredevil (now fully exposed as Matt Murdock) beats the poo poo out of him, declares himself the New Kingpin, and Fisk is jailed. 2005: While in jail, he cuts a deal with the FBI to turn states' evidence on Daredevil and everyone else involved in organized crime in the city. The FBI doublecrosses him and he goes back to jail where he is placed in the same jail as Matt Murdock (and the Punisher, and Bullseye) in the hope that they just all kill each other. Fisk is shot up and injured in Daredevil's eventual prison break. 2006: While in prison, Fisk cuts a new deal with Iron Man/SHIELD to turn informant on all of his old gang compatriots again in exchange for a reduced sentence. He also simultaneously arranges for Aunt May to get assassinated. 2007-2009: Matt Murdock works to get all of Fisk's charges dropped. In exchange, Fisk agrees to go back to Europe and stop Kingpinning. He manages to do so, but then the Hand murder his new girlfriend and her family and Fisk decides it's time to go back to his Kingpin bullshit yet again. Fisk and Daredevil team up against the Hand, which leads to Fisk double-crossing DD and trying to take control of the Hand. Instead, Daredevil triple-crosses Fisk and takes control of the Hand himself. 2010-2013: This almost immediately turns into "Daredevil is possessed by The Beast and tries to kill everyone on behalf of the Hand", which brings Fisk back into the fold to help the heroes stop Demon-Possessed Daredevil. Fisk fakes his own death. 2014: Fisk resurfaces in San Francisco, trying to become that city's Kingpin while DD is also living there. Daredevil eventually beats him again, and has him arrested again. At some point in all of this, Matt Murdock uses the Purple Children to make everyone forget he's Daredevil. 2017-2021: Fisk is back in New York and back to being that city's Kingpin for reasons I forget. When Secret Empire happens and all of Manhattan is trapped under a dome by Nazi Captain America, Fisk uses his criminal resources to help everyone survive Under the Dome, which makes him popular with the general populace. He parlays that into a successful run for Mayor of New York. He outlaws superhero vigilantes and generally stays corrupt but in public he's a popular Law & Order mayor. He marries Typhoid Mary and outside of being corrupt seems pretty happy being mayor. 2022: Devil's Reign starts when Kingpin stumbles upon some of his old private files on Daredevil and because of the Purple Magic realizes that he can't read anything in his files, which causes him to snap and eventually remember everything. He tries to use Purple Magic to convince everyone he needs to track down and kill all of the vigilantes, and plans to run for President using Purple Magic. By the end of this Fisk is exposed and disgraced and Luke Cage wins a special election for mayor in large part due to his role in exposing Fisk. Fisk escapes, a fugitive from justice. It's also during the Devil's Reign X-Men mini-series that Duggan starts playing up Emma and Fisk's past dealings. 2023: Fisk shows up on Krakoa with Mary and claims asylum. He once again at least outwardly is a happy married man who is content to put the Kingpinning bullshit behind him. Possibly in part because Daredevil has spent the past few years speedrunning through being arrested/jailed/exposed/dying again. Will either status quo last through the end of the year? Stay tuned!
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 20:35
|
|
|
Remember that the Mutant Formerly Known as Apocalypse is the rock on the eternal shore, and if you crash against him you will be broken
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 20:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 06:04 |
|
|
Gologle posted:Remember that the Mutant Formerly Known as Apocalypse is the rock on the eternal shore, and if you crash against him you will be broken I don't know how anyone could forget that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 20:45
|
|
