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It makes more sense realising these people believe they are very, extremely smart and that everyone either secretly shares their beliefs or is very, ridiculously stupid and easily fooled.
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Aug 18, 2023 07:02
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Some Libertarian candidate believes that a true libertarian will not have the state intervene on the choices of individuals, and this is going about as well as you can expect. https://twitter.com/TRHLofficial/status/1691522361374154752?t=8Y8W6Kwq0qAzY9Xm1JjazA&s=19
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Aug 18, 2023 14:59
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I kinda fell behind with this thread because Libertarians are largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of American politics with the party hemorrhaging members and really losing what few fig leaves it had to identify itself as something other than a crypto-republican party. Most of what's left to react to are some dumb internet posters. But now an apparently credible opportunity for a libertarian candidate is rising up in Agentina of all places, with self-professed libertarian and anarcho-capitalist nutjob Javier Milei coming out as the current frontrunner for president in the upcoming Argentinian elections after he had he biggest share of primary votes. https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/14/americas/argentina-election-javier-milei-intl/index.html And how much is he following specifically American libertarianism? I dunno, but there is this lady in his party. https://twitter.com/Navoski/status/1692582553885052956 Crazy stuff.
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Aug 19, 2023 15:40
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Fister Roboto posted:Ah, that's why Ben Shapiro is so fond of it. but why does his fanfic have a 7 foot protag?
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Aug 20, 2023 18:00
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disposablewords posted:Yeah, true. Sorry for getting drawn in on it. gently caress's sake, I need an anger outlet other than stupid assholes online. Anyway. I hate that my taste in media growing up was cyberpunk dystopias that exaggerated the rapacious greed and amorality of the rich and turned out to be underestimating it.
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Aug 21, 2023 01:50
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if i had the option to get better memory or whatever the case may be from technology I would decline it. I think humans can get to where we need to go without becoming part machine. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 21, 2023 03:46
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Fascinating how this incident could radicalize a bunch of libertarians for decades to come yet they decided to be on the other side of the BLM riots regardless. https://twitter.com/LPNational/status/1693638552834187518?t=iyLDKnE11yIL2BrGuHh3Nw&s=19
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Aug 21, 2023 16:56
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"Ruby Ridge was about the government persecuting home schoolers" and the phrase "Weaver allegedly sold two too-much-sawed-off shotguns to someone" are some extremely wild takes. Also, "he was given court summons with the wrong date on it, so he was obviously justified in killing an FBI agent sent to serve a warrant." Ending with: quote:Remember this when you call for gun control. It's perfectly formulated to be an amazingly dark parody, but it came from the actual official Libertarian Party Twitter - not even the crazy NH party breakaway one.
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Aug 21, 2023 17:03
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What's the real story again? All I remembered is the ATF botched some raid and shot his wife, kid, and dog.
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Aug 21, 2023 17:06
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The ATF accidentally shot his wife during the standoff. Ruby Ridge has plenty of angles to attack the ATF over for not handling it well. But, it is blowing my mind that the defense they went with is "he just sold a couple of "too sawed off" shotguns to undercover ATF agents a couple times, lied about it, missed a court date, threatened to kill his neighbor, and gave his 14-year old son a shotgun and had him kill an FBI agent sent to serve the warrant - and the tyrannical DOJ actually arrested and prosecuted him for him it!"
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Aug 21, 2023 17:11
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He was a white separatist and met the ATF agent he sold the shotguns to at an Aryan Nation meeting. Then during the raid and gunfights the ATF shot his son in the back, his wife while holding her baby, and him while unarmed. It is in fact possible for the cops to be bad and him to be bad at the same time.
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Aug 21, 2023 17:16
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Panfilo posted:What's the real story again? All I remembered is the ATF botched some raid and shot his wife, kid, and dog. The short version is: - Guy moves into the mountain because he is a crazy prepper and white supremacist who is preparring for RaHoWa. - He tries to take over his neighbor's land. - The neighbor sues him and rats him out to the ATF that he has been illegally selling banned guns. - The ATF sends an undercover agent to buy multiple sawed-off shotguns and illegal weapon accessories from him multiple times - including once at a literal white supremacist conference. - The DOJ prosecutes him and send him a court summons. - The court summons had the wrong date on it. - He missed his court date and refused all calls or attempts to contact him from the court. - He thinks that they gave him the wrong court date on purpose because they were trying to set him up because of tyranny and says he will kill anyone who tries to talk to him, arrest him, or serve a warrant. - Federal Marshals come to his house to serve a warrant for his arrest. - A dog attacks them and the Marshal shoots at it. - His 14-year old son was given a shotgun and told to guard the property, so he shot the Marshall. - The Marshal shot back and killed his son. - He shot and killed the Marshal. - There is a standoff for 11 days where he refuses to leave his house or surrender. - He shoots at the ATF and U.S. Marshals from the window of their house. - A sniper shoots at him, but hits his wife while she was carrying their baby when the bullet goes through a door. - The ATF also shot at him once when he was unarmed and came up to the shed outside his house. - They eventually start to run out of food and a civilian negotiator gets them to agree to surrender. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Aug 21, 2023 |
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Aug 21, 2023 17:16
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Also qualified immunity is bad, but it was originally invented entirely to allow cops to continue to be dicks during the civil rights movement, and that bit always gets left off in the Libertarian version for some reason.
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Aug 21, 2023 17:19
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:"Ruby Ridge was about the government persecuting home schoolers" and the phrase "Weaver allegedly sold two too-much-sawed-off shotguns to someone" are some extremely wild takes. Nah, come on my dude. Ye, libertarians are racist poo poo heads whose support for ruby ridge is dependant on melanin content, but let's not pretend like Weaver was the bad guy. The fbi shot first, killing weaver's dog. They may or may not have announced themselves before or after murdering the dog, and may or may not have shot first at weaver's son when the latter became hostile. They didn't shoot an fbi agent for serving a warrant, but for shooting at them and their dog. Given that these same agents later shot weaver twice (in the back) while he posed zero threat and murdered his wife, I'm willing to lean on the idea that they shot first in the initial encounter as well.
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Aug 21, 2023 17:21
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Caros posted:Nah, come on my dude. I don't think it is too wild of a take to say that the white supremacist arms dealer who armed his child and instructed him to kill anyone on their property is a bad guy. The Marshals and ATF obviously hosed up when they shot his wife (she was behind a door that they shot at when trying to shoot Weaver), but acting like the situation that led to the siege was totally reasonable and Weaver was in the right is crazy. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Aug 21, 2023 |
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Aug 21, 2023 17:25
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The short version is: This is dishonest as gently caress. The ATF solicited the purchase from weaver in order to get leverage on him so that they could use him as an informant. He told them to gently caress off. There is a decent chance he did not know his sawed off weapons exceeded a federal limit. The dude missed a court date because the court docs had the wrong date on it. They sent officers to arrest him (illegally) despite knowing this. They only obtained the arrest warrant by omitting that he had not, in fact, missed his court date. The son had a gun because these were rednecks in the mountains. Literally everyone there had guns. They also hunted habitually and were following the dog in hope that it had found somethig for them to shoot and eat. The Marshall's were hiding in camo in the woods. The dog *approached* them and was shot. No one on either side ever alleged that the dog attacked. They murdered the dog. Depending on who you believe, the cops either shot first at Sammy (the fourteen year old) or Sammy, pissed that some unannounced weirdos hiding on the side of the mountain had just shot his dog, shot at them. They shoot the child dead. A family friend shoots the cop in the crossfire. A seige ensues. Randy weaver never fires a shot during this seige. It is a 'Seige' in that the ATF don't want to approach the cabin for fear of provoking him, not because both sides are shooting. Randy weaver is shot in the back by an FBI sniper while he is leaving the cabin to visit the body of his son in a nearby shed to prepare him for burial. None of them are armed. FBI rules of engagement are literally 'shoot any armed adult male on sight' which is blatantly illegal. Weaver has not been given a surrender order when he is shot. Harris, the family friend, is hit while the three (including a teenage girl) flee back to cover. This shot penetrates Harris and kills Vicki weaver inside the cabin. They surrender nine days later because all the adults in the cabin were severely wounded or dead by sniper fire. It continued for 9 days because weaver (understandably) was afraid that if they showed themselves, the fbi would blow their loving brains out. You are so full of poo poo. I don't even know where you're getting half your claims because not even the fbi made those lies. Caros fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Aug 21, 2023 |
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Aug 21, 2023 17:38
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Caros posted:This is dishonest as gently caress. You can just read the Wiki and see that this is not correct. You're giving him way too much credit. Some of the claims you're citing are claims in a book that Weaver wrote years later and were never corroborated. quote:On cross-examination by the defense, ballistics experts called by the prosecution testified that the physical evidence contradicted neither the prosecution's nor the defense's theories of the gunfight.[3]: 390 Martin Fackler testified that Roderick fired the shot or shots that killed Striker, that Degan fired the shot that hit Sammy in the right elbow, that Harris shot and killed Degan, and that Cooper "probably" shot and killed Sammy.[3] quote:A later ballistics report showed that nineteen rounds were fired during the fight.[51] DUSM Roderick fired one shot from an M16A1 (which killed "Striker", the dog, by entering his body two inches from the dog's anus, and exiting the chest), then Sammy fired three from a .223 Ruger Mini-14 (at Roderick), Degan fired seven from an M16 (at Harris and Weaver, while moving at least 21 feet (6.4 m)), and Cooper fired six from a 9 mm Colt submachine gun (at Harris and Weaver), Harris then fired two from a .30-06 M1917 Enfield Rifle (striking and killing DUSM Degan).[50][52] After the federal agents began firing, Sammy was killed by a shot to the back while retreating.[52][13] Harris fired one unaimed shot and killed DUSM Degan.[52][53] Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Aug 21, 2023 |
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Aug 21, 2023 17:48
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:You can just read the Wiki and see that this is not correct. You're giving him way too much credit. Literally nothing you just posted disputes what I said. The two sides have different stories about hwo the first confrontation started. The marshalls obviously don't want to admit they shot a child first, and the weavers don't want to admit that they shot first. The Marshall's claim that they announced themselves, the weavers claim they said no such thing. We do know that the Marshall's never claimed to have been attacked by the dog. It came running up to strangers and they shot it. At *bes* a fourteen year old overreacted after a bunch of strangers killed his dog and a pair of tragic deaths ensued. At worst a bunch of jittery cops shot a dog because they are cowardly fucks, then saw two people with guns baring down on them and shot. I'm willing to accept either of those. Bothare a gently caress up of law enforcement. Now how about you address the bushit about how Randy weaver was apparently Ramboing out the window when he got shot in the back, unarmed by cops. Edit: also, I do love that last line. Pure cop bullshit. 'There was no proof that the cop intended to kill or injure weaver'. Because apparently cops are that one batman skit where they don't understand how death works and that shooting your firearm at someone can kill or injure them.
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Aug 21, 2023 18:00
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Police firearms actually just go off randomly all the time, at no fault of the person holding them, but probably the fault of the person they hit. Also very impressive trick shots to shoot dogs in the rear end when they are attacking you.
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Aug 21, 2023 18:06
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OwlFancier posted:Police firearms actually just go off randomly all the time, at no fault of the person holding them, but probably the fault of the person they hit. Fun fact! Of the five people shot at Ruby Ridge only the cop and the woman holding a baby were shot from the front. Turns out the weaver family were all trying that one weird rifleman trick from. Battletech. Edit: I know this is the libertarian thread so this is a huge derail, I just didn't wasn't to let that slide. Randy Weaver was Delusional antisemitic scum, but his family were murdered by cops. There is no version of ruby ridge where they come out looking better than he did. The deputy fbi director said it best: Something to Consider 1. Charge against Weaver is Bull S___. 2. No one saw Weaver do any shooting. 3. Vicki has no charges against her. 4. Weaver's defense. He ran down the hill to see what dog was barking at. Some guys in camys [camouflage] shot his dog. Started shooting at him. Killed his son. Harris did the shooting. He is in pretty strong legal position Caros fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Aug 21, 2023 |
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Aug 21, 2023 18:09
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Of additional interest, the civilian negotiator mentioned previous at Ruby Ridge was retired special forces colonel and POW/MIA conspiracy lunatic Bo Gritz, who by then was waist-deep in the 90s militia movement(s).
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Aug 21, 2023 18:12
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Caros posted:Literally nothing you just posted disputes what I said. The two sides have different stories about hwo the first confrontation started. The marshalls obviously don't want to admit they shot a child first, and the weavers don't want to admit that they shot first. The Marshall's claim that they announced themselves, the weavers claim they said no such thing. Some of your characterizations are just giving an insane amount of benefit of the doubt or are straight from Weaver's book that were never corroborated. quote:The ATF solicited the purchase from weaver in order to get leverage on him so that they could use him as an informant. He told them to gently caress off. There is a decent chance he did not know his sawed off weapons exceeded a federal limit. Seems very unlikely that he was completely unaware that he was selling multiple sawed-off shotguns at multiple times, including at a white supremacist rally where he was specifically advertising arming for RaHoWa against the tyrannical government's gun control laws, and they were just penalizing him for an oopsie. quote:to get Weaver to act as an informant for his investigation into Aryan Nations. Weaver refused to become a "snitch" quote:The dude missed a court date because the court docs had the wrong date on it. They sent officers to arrest him (illegally) despite knowing this. They only obtained the arrest warrant by omitting that he had not, in fact, missed his court date. Not correct. He had many many opportunities to talk to his lawyer or the court. He specifically dodged his own lawyer and the court multiple times when they tried to give him the correct date or talk to him. He also refused to show up to the incorrect date either and dodged the court, his lawyer, his friends, and the mail for 7 months. It wasn't an "oopsie, I thought it was on the date on the letter." quote:Weaver did not give him a telephone number. Hofmeister sent Weaver letters on January 19, January 31, and February 5, asking Weaver to contact him to work on his defense within the federal court system. quote:On February 5, the trial date was changed from February 19 to 20 to give participants more travel time following a federal holiday. The court clerk sent the parties a letter informing them of the date change, but the notice was not sent directly to Weaver, only to Hofmeister. On February 7, Richins sent Weaver a letter indicating that he had the case file and needed to talk with Weaver. This letter erroneously said that Weaver's trial date was March 20.[18]: 38 [27] On February 8, Hofmeister again attempted to contact Weaver by letter informing him that the trial was to begin on February 20 and that Weaver needed to contact him immediately. Hofmeister also made several calls to individuals who knew Weaver, asking them to have Weaver call him. Hofmeister told U.S. District Court Judge Harold Lyman Ryan that he had been unable to reach Weaver before the scheduled court date.[28] quote:The son had a gun because these were rednecks in the mountains. Literally everyone there had guns. They also hunted habitually and were following the dog in hope that it had found somethig for them to shoot and eat. The father told his son that people were coming to get him, gave him a gun, and said he needed to guard the house. That is a pretty different context for why a kid had a gun than just "they were rednecks." I don't want to relitigate the entire Ruby Ridge scenario, but you are painting the literal Nazi arms dealer as a hapless victim who was being unfairly persecuted, when that is very far from what happened. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Aug 21, 2023 |
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Aug 21, 2023 18:26
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He could have been hitler himself and it doesn't make it any less likely that the cops would behave like loving idiots every single step of the way, as they demonstrably have done time and time again, which directly creates even more right wing separatist lunatics.
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Aug 21, 2023 18:30
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I didn’t know the earlier part of the story where the agents pretended to be stranded motorists. That’s the best part of the story to me. Why not be creative in how they apprehend these people in order to avoid shooting in either side. Like how they picked up Ammon Bundy from that fundraiser dinner. Also I’d like to see this sort of poo poo be included in the bail hearing “your honor, the defendant is a huge loving chud who lives in a murder shack in the woods. We’d like you to withhold bail until we can determine he’s not going to hole himself up and shoot at us when he inevitably doesn’t show up to the next hearing. “
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Aug 21, 2023 19:07
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quote:Some of your characterizations are just giving an insane amount of benefit of the doubt or are straight from Weaver's book that were never corroborated. If the Weaver family were black you wouldn't be going to the mat nearly this hard. You see 'lovely neo-nazi' and your knee jerk reaction is that anything done to them is correct. Nothing I said about the case is in particular contention. Hell, I think the only area where the FBI account differs from my assumptions is who shot first on the mountain. My issue is that you just straight loving lied in your summary and are now being a fuckboy who refuses to back up the things that you got called out on. quote:Seems very unlikely that he was completely unaware that he was selling multiple sawed-off shotguns at multiple times, including at a white supremacist rally where he was specifically advertising arming for RaHoWa against the tyrannical government's gun control laws, and they were just penalizing him for an oopsie. They weren't penalizing him for an oopsie, they were turning the screws to try and get him to flip on his nazi buddies. There is no record of Weaver having ever produced illegal weapons in the past. Their informant asked Weaver, multiple times over the course of three years, to make him a sawed off shotgun. After multiple asks, Weaver eventually agreed. You call him an 'arms dealer' in your post, but Weaver is no different from every one of those post 9/11 plots where you hear about ten muslim guys plotting the next 9/11 only it turns out that they'd bascially been brow beaten into it by an FBI informant over the course of years. There is a reason Weaver wasn't convicted on the weapons charges. Weaver had never created an illegal weapon before the ATF started trying to get him to make one. quote:Not correct. He had many many opportunities to talk to his lawyer or the court. He specifically dodged his own lawyer and the court multiple times when they tried to give him the correct date or talk to him. He refused to show up because they issued a second, illegal warrant for his arrest for missing that date. While I obviously think he should have show up, the dude was a deranged anti-government lunatic. They told him "Show up for March 20th" and then issued a warrant to have him arrested on March 14th for not showing up on March 20th and then told him that when he lost his case (which was only happening because the government had more or less engaged in entrapment) that they'd take his kids and his land. The government did basically everything wrong in this case. quote:The father told his son that people were coming to get him, gave him a gun, and said he needed to guard the house. That is a pretty different context for why a kid had a gun than just "they were rednecks." They lived on a mountainside in the middle of nowhere. Literally everyone carries guns there, and you haven't provided a single source for this "Make sure to shoot at cops" bullshit narritive you keep pushing. They shot his son in the back and blew his arm off. The kid was fourteen. gently caress you. quote:I don't want to relitigate the entire Ruby Ridge scenario, but you are painting the literal Nazi arms dealer as a hapless victim who was being unfairly persecuted, when that is very far from what happened. I wouldn't want to relitigate it either given how full of poo poo you are. You want to walk back some of that bullshit about how Weaver was shooting at cops when a sniper shot him in the back? Or nah? Proust Malone posted:I didn’t know the earlier part of the story where the agents pretended to be stranded motorists. That’s the best part of the story to me. Why not be creative in how they apprehend these people in order to avoid shooting in either side. Like how they picked up Ammon Bundy from that fundraiser dinner. They easily could have just waited for him to come down from the mountain. Dude had to eventually. They could have also reached out through someone other than a government source. To be clear, Weaver was a nutter, and there is absolutely an argument to be made that you can't just ignore a warrant forever. But this wasn't some Waco situation where people were in danger, where the people involved needed to be taken down now rather than later. Weaver as a mountain man who hated the government, the only crime he ever committed was one the government all but pushed onto him and their response to his actions was insanely disproportionate. Caros fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Aug 21, 2023 |
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Aug 21, 2023 19:23
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OwlFancier posted:
Hey man some dogs with Alpo farts will make you fear for your life
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Aug 21, 2023 19:37
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Confronting an illegal armsdealer with an arsenal and ties to a violent group is one of the few times when it's justified for law enforcement to be armed and ready for a fight. Especially since that came after various civil processes were already gone through. It's not surprising at all why people who were radicalized by this incident would be on the other side of the BLM protests. Maybe it would be different if George Floyd had been a member of the Aryan Nation. Caros posted:They lived on a mountainside in the middle of nowhere. Literally everyone carries guns there, and you haven't provided a single source for this "Make sure to shoot at cops" bullshit narritive you keep pushing. They shot his son in the back and blew his arm off. The kid was fourteen. gently caress you. I don't think "of course they were armed and ready to kill, such is the nature of mountainfolk" is the excuse you think it is. The nature of guns is that any conflict involving them is going to get real lethal real fast.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:59
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The funny thing about the dog to me is cops shoot them almost as a matter of course yet police dogs for the purposes of response, are officers, and shooting a police dog will bring on that GTA five star response that weaver got. Weaver wanted to live free or die out in the woods with guns, shot someone and then got his family killed. There’s tragedy abound here but it starts with his fundamentalist view of guns as the sacrosanct guarantor of liberty. Once shooting starts, freedom is not retained by individuals with guns, it’s (ironically for libertarians) collectively retained by the groups with the most guns. See maybe the entire history of the reconstruction south, but particularly the Colfax massacre.
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Aug 21, 2023 20:05
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SlothfulCobra posted:Confronting an illegal armsdealer with an arsenal and ties to a violent group is one of the few times when it's justified for law enforcement to be armed and ready for a fight. Especially since that came after various civil processes were already gone through. They shot a fourteen year old after they murdered his dog for no earthly reason. If this kid was black (or if his dad wasn't a nazi gently caress) you'd be slobbering at the bit to condemn them, as you loving should. Weaver had lovely politics, but last I checked getting entrapped into sawing the barrel off two guns doesn't carry any more of a judge Dredd death sentence than passing a fake $20. And again, I'll reiterate. Weaver was unarmed and going to bury his son when an FBI sniper shot him in the back. Proust Malone posted:The funny thing about the dog to me is cops shoot them almost as a matter of course yet police dogs for the purposes of response, are officers, and shooting a police dog will bring on that GTA five star response that weaver got. Weaver never shot anyone. He was never even seen with a gun. His son shot a bunch of cops in full camo who hadn't identified themselves after they murdered his dog. This isn't like they rolled up to serve a warrant and he started shooting. They were doing a goddamn commando mission on the mountain, shot his dog, murdered his son and then a day later shot him in the back, his friend in the chest and his wife to death while all of them were unarmed. The cops straight murked half his family and you guys are just like 'huh, dumb Nazi gently caress gets his' as though it is totally cool for the fbi to issue shoot on sight orders for all adult males in a house regardless of whether they pose a risk. Caros fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Aug 21, 2023 |
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Aug 21, 2023 20:28
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It's very hard not to see it as the cops doing apparently the only thing they are capable of doing in a professional capacity in the US. Legit even if the guy was a huge piece of poo poo it's the exact same police behaviour they use on everyone else, it's a perfectly fine example of the cops being utterly useless because they can't even arrest a nazi gun weirdo without also killing a pregnant woman and a kid it seems like a pretty clear demonstration that all they can do is violence and they can't even do that properly and also that when they do it it makes things worse both immediately and systemically. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Aug 21, 2023 |
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Aug 21, 2023 21:07
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OwlFancier posted:It's very hard not to see it as the cops doing apparently the only thing they are capable of doing in a professional capacity in the US. Legit even if the guy was a huge piece of poo poo it's the exact same police behaviour they use on everyone else, it's a perfectly fine example of the cops being utterly useless because they can't even arrest a nazi gun weirdo without also killing a pregnant woman and a kid And a dog. Don't forget a dog. Though his wife wasn't pregnant. She was merely holding their eleven month old child when she was killed.
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Aug 21, 2023 21:12
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You can tell Weaver wasn't a threat to anyone else because if he had been the cops would have let him kill people until he got tired and then treated him to his favorite Burger King combo meal
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Aug 21, 2023 21:29
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OwlFancier posted:It's very hard not to see it as the cops doing apparently the only thing they are capable of doing in a professional capacity in the US. Legit even if the guy was a huge piece of poo poo it's the exact same police behaviour they use on everyone else, it's a perfectly fine example of the cops being utterly useless because they can't even arrest a nazi gun weirdo without also killing a pregnant woman and a kid Nobody is saying the ATF and Marshals were correct. They explicitly changed rules of engagement after this because of what happened. It's just that treating the Nazis who dodged court, the mail, and his own lawyers for 7 months while selling sawed-off shotguns to white supremacists and killed someone as helpless babes who were persecuted and setup because they were just accidentally selling sawed-off shotguns marketed as being sold in defiance of the tyrannical governments gun control laws that they had unknowingly sawed-off just a little too much is silly.
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Aug 21, 2023 21:45
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I find that pretty irrelevant to whether or not it's OK for the cops to shoot people who aren't armed, and also children even if they are armed.
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Aug 21, 2023 21:48
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Saying that someone wasn't an imminent threat and that their crimes don't warrant the death penalty ≠ saying they are a helpless babe who shouldn't be arrested for breaking the law
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Aug 21, 2023 21:54
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Nobody is saying the ATF and Marshals were correct. They explicitly changed rules of engagement after this because of what happened. By which you mean 'were coerced over the course of years by a federal informant to commit a pretext crime in order to justify enforcement. Again, this situation is no different than every one of those post 9/11' terrorism' plots. The only crime the man ever committed was selling an illegal weapon to a government snitch who had spent years trying to get him to do it. They make the crime, they make the criminal and then they kill his family. I think weaver had good loving cause to be scared of his government.
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Aug 21, 2023 22:07
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The enforcement thing is a sticking point too yeah, that's seemingly at the root of a lot of cop problems, like they feel like they absolutely need to stick their dicks in a situation whether or not it's helpful, and then when they inevitably end up escalating it, they use that to justify their even more hosed up response.
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Aug 21, 2023 22:12
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One of the things I notice about copaganda is the implicit assumption that cops have no control over their own actions but everyone else has an obligation to perform perfect self-control at all times. The siege wouldn't have happened if the guy had just answered the public defender's calls and shown up on the earlier court date, but it also wouldn't have happened if the ATF hadn't sought out to convince him to commit a crime in the first place. The kid might not have been shot if he hadn't shot at the cops (well maybe, being unarmed and not shooting anyone didn't help the wife), but the kid also wouldn't have been shot if cops hadn't shot a child in the back as he was running away or hadn't provoked him in the first place by shooting a Labrador in the rear end for no reason.
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Aug 21, 2023 22:25
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Caros posted:They shot a fourteen year old after they murdered his dog for no earthly reason. If this kid was black (or if his dad wasn't a nazi gently caress) you'd be slobbering at the bit to condemn them, as you loving should. I, the father of three sons, struggle to imagine the thought process of the dad. Were I the one facing gun charges, I would perhaps not give my fourteen year old a gun and tell him to patrol the property with Fido. Maybe I’m just a squish lib.
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Aug 21, 2023 22:42
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| # ? May 20, 2024 06:05 |
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Morality teaching time: It's not okay to shoot a child in the back as he's running away even if his dad made bad decisions.
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Aug 21, 2023 22:45
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