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Lostconfused posted:That's like the Paradox approach to everything, where they just want the game mechanics to make the historic outcomes happen instead of simulating stuff accurately. Vicky 3s problem isn’t that the simulation makes communism too good, it’s that it doesn’t simulate the filthy lucre you can amass for your upper class by going balls deep into imperialism. Also doesn’t simulate said upper class owning the state all that well but that’s always going to be the Achilles heel since that’s the whole job of the player.
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Aug 22, 2023 00:16
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Mister Bates posted:obviously it's communist but I don't know how much of the anti-car message was the developer actually having anything against cars specifically, and how much of it was simply that attempting to realistically simulate automobiles, both the traffic and also all of the externalities associated with them, inevitably makes cars look loving awful as a mode of transport even if you aren't intentionally setting out to do that yeah that's the cool thing: the 'anti-car message' is achieved simply by taking a strict simulationist view of the process and letting the chips fall where they may
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Aug 22, 2023 00:23
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Orange Devil posted:Also doesn’t simulate said upper class owning the state all that well It 100% does, but only when it's landed nobility. The liberal capitalists don't really care as long as the basic laws allowing exploitation are there.
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Aug 22, 2023 00:35
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Lostconfused posted:It 100% does, but only when it's landed nobility. The liberal capitalists don't really care as long as the basic laws allowing exploitation are there. Yeah, I guess they give you a starting state but the liberals never cease control as per real life.
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Aug 22, 2023 00:38
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I know this isn’t the best thread for it but I think it’s worth bringing up: the classic line about communism is “works in theory [eg video game simulation] not in practice” what are the games missing that makes them unable to simulate history? fr0id has issued a correction as of 00:49 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 00:41
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fr0id posted:I know this isn’t the best thread for it but I think it’s worth bringing up: it's really the other way around: communism does work in games that are sufficiently simulationist, as long as the devs aren't so ideologically poisoned to stack the deck against them dishonestly. It's the superior politico-economic system in all three Victorias; the only downside is "lots of micromanagement" in 2, and come on, that's literally just "skill issue" Workers & Resources is more about demonstrating how all the abstraction in other city-builders ends up misrepresenting what actually goes into the running of a city, and that this occlusion ends up making modern American cities seem more feasible/viable than they actually are I guess one of the counter-examples is a game like East vs West, the Cold-War-Gone-Hot spin-off of Axis & Allies, where the Warsaw Pact is given like half as much production capacity as NATO, which is an insane handicap with no basis in reality. Or the Operation Unthinkable scenario Strategic Command, where again the Soviet forces are outnumbered in July of 1945.
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Aug 22, 2023 00:51
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The primary conflict in the time period of Victoria 3 is the bourgeoisie versus nobles, which still works out fine with the way the game works. It's the inclusion of socialist reforms and the economy being too complicated for the computer to mage is what throws a wrench into the machinery. Because the bourgeoisie won't have enough influence without industrial development, while being a dominant economic power with basic social reforms just turns everyone into a happy ethno nationalist. Lostconfused has issued a correction as of 00:55 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 00:53
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Like right now various political classes don't get a ton of power/control without extra modifiers. Some changes there could help, like the way it works with estates in Europa Universalis. Where you can give estates more power in return for some benefits. In Victoria 3 its just generals/admirals and some laws. And you're not likely to change those laws all that much.
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Aug 22, 2023 01:05
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vicky 3 doesnt have any communist or capitalist ideology, it's straight from agrarianism to perma-fascism. once you've industrialized, there is no class conflict between the capitalist and the worker, because the capitalist and the worker want nothing more than to spend 36 hours a day working at their job. btw being a capitalist is exactly as much a full-time job as being a laborer in vicky 3. anyways, since everyone's happiness is derived solely from how much they work for the good of the nation (as organized through a great nation-geist i.e. the player or ai), the only "class division" after industrialization is the class conflict between Providers (capitalists and laborers who make everything society needs) and Eaters (unemployed welfare queens whose demands for free money will eventually destroy the entire world). you can have oligarchic liberal fascism or horizontal broad-dispersed populist fascism and that's it
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Aug 22, 2023 01:10
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gently caress it, reposting myselfstumblebum posted:pops should generate 168 hours a week. pops should need to spend hours on activities to survive and advance. hours could be spent on things like "subsistent rest" (eating and sleeping), socializing, "leisure rest" (pops require hours to acquire and use services/goods to improve SoL), fulfillment (religious services and/or politicking), and of course, working to produce goods/earn wages. not that this is actually very feasible in total, but i do think that making players balance their pops between "productive" and "social" firms, with the idea that eventually one must dominate the other, would result in real ideological choice. nations that use capital to fund social institutions are *Social-ist* while nations that use social institutions to increase capital are *Capital-ist*
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Aug 22, 2023 01:14
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The class conflict is in the economy laws. Except computer economy sucks, so trade sucks, so no player is willingly going to pick free trade. Or everyone being happy with Interventionism which is what the player would be happy with, while laissez-Faire the one that embodies class conflict is something the player would also not pick willingly like free-trade  Edit: Well that and https://vic3.paradoxwikis.com/Human_rights_laws but the human rights laws are just "give more concessions to the workers" which isn't really the same back and forth as the economy laws, and you don't really need to touch them all that much unless your workers would attempt a revolution over it. Lostconfused has issued a correction as of 01:25 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 01:19
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gradenko_2000 posted:it's really the other way around: communism does work in games that are sufficiently simulationist, as long as the devs aren't so ideologically poisoned to stack the deck against them dishonestly. It's the superior politico-economic system in all three Victorias; the only downside is "lots of micromanagement" in 2, and come on, that's literally just "skill issue" I put the [] in the wrong place and edited it after the fact. would you mind to respond to what I intended?
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Aug 22, 2023 01:33
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Lostconfused posted:The class conflict is in the economy laws. so it sounds like capitalism requires a bunch of other people who realize how to cheat the whole system and are happy to do so and the ai is too dumb for this?
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Aug 22, 2023 01:37
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I think the core idea is that you're supposed to make the capitalists happy and for the workers to be opressed, so that the workers get pissed off enough to start demanding concessions from you. But the game is just too easy and that never happens.
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Aug 22, 2023 01:39
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Mister Bates posted:one of the most revolutionary (heh) things W&R does is honestly the way it handles cars and traffic. it does abstract one thing: people have to go from Point A to Point B, but they don't have go back from Point B to Point A. People teleport directly back home when their shift is over, so only the morning commute is accurately modelled.
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Aug 22, 2023 01:51
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Orange Devil posted:Vicky 3s problem isn’t that the simulation makes communism too good, it’s that it doesn’t simulate the filthy lucre you can amass for your upper class by going balls deep into imperialism. Also doesn’t simulate said upper class owning the state all that well but that’s always going to be the Achilles heel since that’s the whole job of the player. it does sort of that's what the "upper house" represents, and why it's so hard to pass obviously beneficial reforms. The thing it doesn't simulate well is really the post-1918 period and the rise of Communism and Fascism as political systems. In the game dictatorships are inheritly ultra-unstable and you get waves of revolts every year or two which are almost impossible to stop by late game. The reason why is that the game is trying to simulate the collapse of absolute monarchies of the 19th century under pressure from both liberals and socialists. What it fails to simulate are the tools of repression and control employed by 20th century party-state which enabled stable regimes across multiple decades, if not indefinitely. The period represented in the game (1836-1936) was a time of enormous social, political, economic and technological changes that dwarfs the changes in other paradox games. So the Vicky 2 system is a pretty good fit to represent the world of 1850, it kinda falls apart when representing the world of 1919. Typo has issued a correction as of 04:02 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 03:56
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There is an option for secret police and censorship and you can do repression, that's even part of the revolutionary event chain that fires when one starts. It's just implemented like poo poo, and is very clunky. Also you need to unlock later game techs to do secret police spying.
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Aug 22, 2023 04:07
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Lostconfused posted:There is an option for secret police and censorship and you can do repression they don't do poo poo
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Aug 22, 2023 04:11
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Ok, that's just a bug then and Paradox needs to fix it.
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Aug 22, 2023 04:50
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Lostconfused posted:Ok, that's just a bug then and Paradox needs to fix it. no it's not, it seems like they just can't get it to work with their in-game model of how rebellions work. the way it works is that you can only repress certain kinds of rebel movements who wants specific things. Like you can repress rebel movements who wants minimum wage to be implemented. But you -can't- repress more general ideological rebels like Communist rebels or Anarcho-Liberal rebels. As in, the "repress movement" button is just greyed out for those movements. And the "general ideological" rebels literally grows 10000x faster. So the only repression you can do are against groups which can't spawn that many brigades anyways. Meanwhile you can't do poo poo about the actual dangers movements. Apparantly according to Vicky 2 the all powerful Communist party would just sit there and jerk off while millions of Jacobin rebels organize general uprisings every 12 months or so. Overall I think the way rebellions is modelled in the game is the worst part of Vicky, and at times come very close to making the game unplayable. Typo has issued a correction as of 07:10 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 06:54
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Orange Devil posted:Vicky 3s problem isn’t that the simulation makes communism too good, it’s that it doesn’t simulate the filthy lucre you can amass for your upper class by going balls deep into imperialism. Also doesn’t simulate said upper class owning the state all that well but that’s always going to be the Achilles heel since that’s the whole job of the player. It's so funny how "capitalist" in Victoria is a job, with a salary, and employing capitalists increases efficiency. It's also genuinely incredible to make a game about a period defined by rampant, brutal colonial exploitation, in which... colonialism sucks to do, but it's actually great to be someone's colony. The absolute concentrated liberalism required for that is really something. In certain ways, Victoria 2's colonial mechanics were far more representative of the ideology of the great powers, and of capitalism. stumblebum posted:vicky 3 doesnt have any communist or capitalist ideology, it's straight from agrarianism to perma-fascism. once you've industrialized, there is no class conflict between the capitalist and the worker, because the capitalist and the worker want nothing more than to spend 36 hours a day working at their job. btw being a capitalist is exactly as much a full-time job as being a laborer in vicky 3. anyways, since everyone's happiness is derived solely from how much they work for the good of the nation (as organized through a great nation-geist i.e. the player or ai), the only "class division" after industrialization is the class conflict between Providers (capitalists and laborers who make everything society needs) and Eaters (unemployed welfare queens whose demands for free money will eventually destroy the entire world). you can have oligarchic liberal fascism or horizontal broad-dispersed populist fascism and that's it I think this is very well put. Edit: I know a few Paradox devs, though they're usually more on Stellaris, and the team behind V3 is... very proud and calling it "Paradox's first Materialist game". How. How do you not understand what colonialism is and how it functions and call yourself a materialist lmao. Zeppelin Insanity has issued a correction as of 10:43 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 07:45
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Typo posted:no it's not, it seems like they just can't get it to work with their in-game model of how rebellions work. this doesn't apply to Victoria 3 though which has plenty of its own issues but this isn't one of them. you don't get yearly revolts in V3 like you did in V2
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Aug 22, 2023 12:55
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Zeppelin Insanity posted:It's also genuinely incredible to make a game about a period defined by rampant, brutal colonial exploitation, in which... colonialism sucks to do, but it's actually great to be someone's colony. The absolute concentrated liberalism required for that is really something. It makes me think they read Niall Ferguson's book. That gave liberal imperialism a new lease on life.
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Aug 22, 2023 13:17
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Frosted Flake posted:It makes me think they read Niall Ferguson's book. That gave liberal imperialism a new lease on life. I genuinely think it's just a fuckup on their part. Like foreign investment is difficult to code given how they set up buildings so eh well fix it in a DLC just get something out the door. Plus like the problem with the liberal conception of imperialism isn't the theory per se (hell there's am argument that's just what the Soviets did with the Warsaw Pact), but the fact that in reality the British were deliberately deindustrializing their competitors by force Zeppelin Insanity posted:It's so funny how "capitalist" in Victoria is a job, with a salary, and employing capitalists increases efficiency. Tbf much like real life their salary is irrelevant compared to their dividends, and the employment is meant to simulate administrative labor as well- iirc communism doesn't eliminate the jobs but replaced them with bureaucrats and sends the dividends to the state or the workers StashAugustine has issued a correction as of 13:48 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 13:46
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Zeppelin Insanity posted:It's so funny how "capitalist" in Victoria is a job, with a salary, and employing capitalists increases efficiency. No they don't, at least not in Vicky 2, capitalists just builds factories, they don't work anywhere. You are thinking of clerks, who works in factories and improve efficiency
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Aug 22, 2023 14:44
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Typo posted:No they don't, at least not in Vicky 2, capitalists just builds factories, they don't work anywhere. again, people are talking about Victoria 3, which has entirely separate mechanics
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Aug 22, 2023 14:49
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4 consecutive posts talking about the wrong game lmao
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Aug 22, 2023 15:11
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would be a good bit to interrupt any discussion of vicky to act as if they're talking about the original Also doesn't vicky 2 still have capitalist pops in a state economy
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Aug 22, 2023 15:12
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StashAugustine posted:would be a good bit to interrupt any discussion of vicky to act as if they're talking about the original Iirc, both them and the aristocrats continiue like nothings happen under communism
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Aug 22, 2023 15:45
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sweet christ on a cracker, Workers & Resources does not gently caress around I fired up a new game and just setting up the most basic "quarry some gravel and extract it" took the better part of an hour to learn
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Aug 22, 2023 16:14
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John Charity Spring posted:again, people are talking about Victoria 3, which has entirely separate mechanics 
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Aug 22, 2023 16:44
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gradenko_2000 posted:sweet christ on a cracker, Workers & Resources does not gently caress around Gravel's definitely the big hump of the early game; I don't think there's anything else that "there is definitely logic to this but gently caress if I knew what it was until I sat there for a while" until rail signaling. Have to figure out vehicle scheduling and balancing for peak load until shortages are over into a transition to a flow model, don't strictly have to, but are definitely encouraged to, figure out storages, conveyors, road grades, building to heights, and mechanisms all at once, plus a bespoke version of resource prospecting relying on the actual terrain textures rather than minimap. A few things that make it easier in the future: - Deposit quality is directly linked to whether the 5m×5m space on the map has a rock texture. The map generator likes to place rock flats sometimes, and these are just as good--you can see them looking around, or try to place a farm on them and see how it avoids them. - Deposit quality isn't strictly speaking that important. You will always need a lot of gravel, but the one other abstraction besides "no commute home" is "non-construction machinery is drones" and a backhoe will match the loading time vs. pulling in/out time of even the biggest dump trucks at surprisingly low levels. - Because of this, strictly speaking, unless you're playing cosmonaut or with the recently-added vehicle maintenance option on, even if the quarrying area is up high in the hills you do not need to connect the quarrying area to your primary road network. If vehicles don't need to drive in on purchase/out on EOL, you will still need a fueling station and road depot for the dumpers/fuel truck to support operations, but you can pipe diesel up and conveyor the rock down, no need to further complicate things by getting workers up there. Even with those modes, you can build the jankiest possible dirt-and-plank-bridges path secure in the knowledge that it needs to be traversed every few months to years on no particular deadline rather than every day.
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Aug 22, 2023 17:14
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gradenko_2000 posted:sweet christ on a cracker, Workers & Resources does not gently caress around Don't ignore the tutorials - they're actually really helpful for giving you a leg up on how things work. You'll still need to gently caress around and trial and error things in a real game but the tutorials give a pretty good grounding on some basic things
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Aug 22, 2023 17:17
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How feasible is it as a goal to look at what you need to build the most basic residential building and pursue setting up industries to provision all the required materials
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Aug 22, 2023 17:23
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gradenko_2000 posted:How feasible is it as a goal to look at what you need to build the most basic residential building and pursue setting up industries to provision all the required materials it's feasible but the steel part is going to be really intensive for a beginner. you probably want to import steel for a long while until you can set up the extensive infrastructure necessary to support a steel mill. for beginners to the game in general I recommend just doing the autobuy stuff which instabuilds while you mess around with setting up industries. pump up the starting cash to give yourself a buffer, too
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Aug 22, 2023 17:29
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I have so many questions about W&R. Will citizens use the bus to get their kids to kindergarten? why wont my garbage trucks pick up waste even after I assigned them a dump. am I a bad person?????? e: oh I didn't notice the range option on the technical office. Stairmaster has issued a correction as of 21:06 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 18:50
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gradenko_2000 posted:How feasible is it as a goal to look at what you need to build the most basic residential building and pursue setting up industries to provision all the required materials I didn't find it very useful when learning; you're going to run pretty much the whole gamut of non-endgame raw materials the second you attempt to make anywhere livable. I found it a lot easier to focus on the resources end, why this tiny ersatz Yugoslavia has independence or a reason to develop at all. Find a good open space near a decently large customs post with access to a resource or good farmland, and focus on exploiting and exporting it to keep the coffers full, while learning how to balance the logistics of importing what you can't manufacture yet--when the time comes you'll be in a good position to set up a new town closer to another resource that can be combined with the one you have in one industry or another and "import" from it. In particular, now that you've figured out gravel, find yourself some coal (which you'll absolutely need to import anyway at first on all but the easiest options setups or all but the best starts anyway--half a year to get heating up before everyone dies of exposure) and while you haven't based your path on "the most basic residential building" in terms of the tiniest and cheapest-to-autobuild housing you have found your way to the inputs for the gravel/concrete/prefab panels trinity that's the bulk of materials for the Khruschyovkas that will be your bread and butter. The further anything is up the processing chain, typically the less inefficient it is to import or export. Your primary import cost unless you're playing with severely restricted cash is not the cost of the good, it is the cost of delivery in either time at the border, fuel, and the vehicles to handle it (if being done from your side) or the delivery cost calculated on pathing (for autobuy,) which means things like machine parts or electronics or even clothing are quite efficient to bring in as you don't need large quantities. Steel, sadly, is required for everything, at the merger of two separate multi-building resource-deposit-gated industrial chains, and takes a large amount of labor to turn out in quantity--it's going to be your single biggest blocker. It's worth noting, though, that water with a path to the map borders is the biggest and best customs post for bulky goods if you start with enough cash for a port and a boat or two, or on more restricted starts as soon as you can spare the extensive labor to build them yourself. Learn to use distribution offices. There are certain niche cases for setting routes, I'll admit--if demand is steady and you put effort into syncing the route length with consumption, you can specify i.e. a single 5t truck delivering in sequence to five corner stores that each can store 1t of groceries while a DO would make five point-to-point trips, and in the very early game for buildings that deal with no more resources than they have parking bays (say, bars) you can simply tell the truck to stay out back for the few weeks it'll take all those five tons of alcohol to be drunk. But this then takes the truck out of action, and requires you to manually tweak the logic every time you expand. On the other hand, a DO will look at any buildings it's assigned for any excess or deficit and shift things around in the background. Learn the tricks of your construction offices. The construction office setup the tutorial or basic experimentation leads you to is to place individual COs near where work is to be done to reduce travel time, but the way the game handles construction is as a set of two-phase steps: delivery and assembly. And assembly always consumes labor. Sometimes this is useful--people get antsy if they don't have a job, and standing around watching one dude shovel is a job. But more often it leads to bussing people who could be doing something useful out to the site in hopes that the steel which hasn't even been mined yet will show up today. It's best to have a minimum two, one with trucks to get the material on site and then a second with busses/cranes/the assorted paving stuff that you only assign when there's a solid buffer; as you get more into the game you can specialize it all the way down to excavation, framing, finishing, engineering, highway, and staffing. Even if you intend to use autobuild, don't be afraid to place something as if you're going to build it yourself. If autobuild is allowed in the difficulty rules, it can always be done at any time in either rubles or dollars, it's even prorated for how much prep you put in, but it can't be cancelled once started other than by cancelling the entire build. There's a tickbox on the bottom right when placing housing controlling whether it will automatically source immigrants. It is on by default. You don't want it on, especially learning when you might have forgotten something vital or mistimed things. When placing a building, existing or planned utilities will draw a line to it if it's in range as a consumer/placing utilities will draw lines to all existing or planned potential consumers. Know which utilities you toggled on in the game rules, and make sure they're all available. Or, to give a rough rundown of what I'd do on an unpopulated map: Find an area around 500m-1km from a customs post (and power connection if you've that turned on) with gravel access and, at the least, open fields or a resource. I think under the new hardest research rules you're not given a survey and have to build a university and research prospecting yourself, but if you're not jumping in the deep end it'll be a minimap view. Build or plan a connection to that, ending in a small grid. Near the middle, build or plan all utilities and amenities you have turned on, plus a bus stop or two. People will walk around 500m depending on road quality, most utilities have around a 300m radius from the local substation. Build or plan a couple of the cheaper large flats, making sure you have the blue dotted walkability lines to everything plus whatever (pretty obvious) lines for your utilities. Build or plan your gravel industry wherever it goes, and run a road to at least the processing plant. Asphalt plant, concrete plant, and (ideally) a cement production complex (or at least a cement silo) either on it or near an intersection leading to coal if you know you have convenient coal; probably a bypass around town leading here. Two COs on the inland side of town; two DOs, an open storage, a warehouse, and if importing coal an aggregate storage on the border side of town. Probably a tank for bitumen. A depot somewhere on the bypass. Set the open storage to take roughly equal amounts of the big four construction materials, planks, brick, steel, and prefab panels. Set the warehouse to take mostly food but with small amounts of clothes, electronics, machine parts, electrical parts, and alcohol. Have one DO set to to take all of these from the border to the storage/warehouse, and give it a mix of big open-hull and covered trucks. The other should be set to take the food/clothes/electronics/alcohol to the relevant shops, and have only small to midsized covered trucks. Oh, and a tanker for each to handle definitely bitumen for the asphalt, and fuel if you have it on. Give one CO an assortment of trucks, tell it to feed from the open storage/warehouse, and you'll probably want to untick the autoassign box in its interface eventually so do it now. Give the other only busses, and make sure it's assigned to nothing and sourcing labor from the customs post; you'll want to assign it manually to buildings as they get a good buffer of materials on hand. Do all of your planned industries, where possible other than small stores, feed from and output into a storage? If not, rework them to. It's the difference between a bad traffic day dinging happiness by 0.25% and a bad traffic day causing 90% casualty rates from hypothermia. Give the order to autobuild what you're autobuilding, and start with imported labor what you're building yourself. Only now unpause. Wait for it all to be done and for the various stocks and gauges to start filling up. Only now, bring in people. Once the people are in, stable, happy and healthy enough for your accounts to become your biggest worry, stop importing what you can produce (that is, tell the "import" DO to stop pulling aggregates from the border and start pulling them from the yard attached to your own plant, the materials CO to go to your own concrete and asphalt plants rather than the border, etc), and repeat the process toward your next resource using your own stocks rather than the customs post as the source. Mandoric has issued a correction as of 20:02 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 19:43
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thank you so much for this! gonna get really into W&R now this morning I tinkered a little more and managed to do my first export of goods, so we're learning little by little!
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Aug 23, 2023 04:07
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I've managed to set up coal production, cement production, and prefab panels production, but oh god the next step up is asphalt and lmao at the production chain for that one I've also managed to set-up food importation, and then fabric importation to start production for a clothes factory, so now my citizens have food and clothing onward and upward!
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Aug 23, 2023 05:53
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If you don't have oil up, it's definitely better to just truck (or even when you're working with enough volume, train) in the bitumen, yeah. Asphalt and concrete are true fuckers in that they can't be stored at all, you either have a staffed plant when the foreman calls for it, or a truck goes out, loads the hundred kilos that was left in the pipes, and that's the load for the day. On the plus side, unless you're playing with the new-this-patch maintenance option on, they're only for building and asphalt in particular isn't needed in huge quantities other than passenger/pedestrian roads. I will say for oil (and for bauxite, though not for fuel or aluminum), the extraction is like gravel where you don't need to or even really want to send shifts. If you can get construction out to it, including Uncle Joe's or Uncle Sam's construction, it's often best to just build pipes and have it work automatically. The old standard start used to be having one of those two pulled up by pumpjacks or a backhoe on the opposite side of the map from where you were building, putting it on trains to the border for a couple hundred thousand a year, and using that cash to rebuy some at your actual city until you got around to pushing rail across the map. But more recently they've turned up the diminishing returns on exports/scaling over time on imports.
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Aug 23, 2023 07:25
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