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well why not posted:I was disappointed that the film couldn’t resist teleporting to an all white space with a borderline non existent character to have an emotional breakthrough. The point had been made at that point, it just ceased the fun train. It helps that I'm a big ol' nerd and gasped "That's Ruth Handler!" the first time Barbie ran through the kitchen. The monologue is also funny to big ol' nerds because the real Ruth Handler was convicted of tax fraud.
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Aug 20, 2023 18:31
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I think this might be one of the most shallow movies ever made, in a good way. A lot of writers use subtext and they’re all cowards
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Aug 21, 2023 15:44
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Arsenic Lupin posted:It helps that I'm a big ol' nerd and gasped "That's Ruth Handler!" the first time Barbie ran through the kitchen. Yeah my gf whispered to me that she was the creator of Barbie and I was like, nah hun that's Rhea Perlman.
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Aug 21, 2023 18:22
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[deleted because biological essentialism]
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Aug 21, 2023 18:59
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I don't think the narrator added anything to the movie. If I saw it a second time, I'd like to see a no-narrator cut
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Aug 21, 2023 22:19
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I think the narrator reminding the audience that Margot Robbie isn't the best example to use since she's gorgeous was needed and funny actually.
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Aug 21, 2023 22:48
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Speleothing posted:I don't think the narrator added anything to the movie. If I saw it a second time, I'd like to see a no-narrator cut Helen Mirren narrating is absolutely a nod to Documentary Now! and nobody can convince me otherwise.
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Aug 21, 2023 22:52
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not having a narrator so the first five minutes is just an homage to 2001 and then a random mishmash of barbie variants and accessories without a single line of dialogue would be a surreal way to open your breezy comedy lol
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Aug 21, 2023 23:18
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It looked great, was enormous fun, way funnier than I expected and ultimately it seemed to me that the takeaway was ‘patriarchy actually sucks for everyone’. I also appreciated how it weaves totally relatable poo poo like the ‘you haven’t seen the GODFATHER?’ bit in to a way more absurd setting. I imagine that gave quite a few guys a bit of a ‘huh’ moment, and it was funny as hell.
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Aug 22, 2023 01:42
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I strongly related to Ken before, after and during his takeover. I think I've done every single one of the mansplaining traps (photoshop, finances, movies, etc) at some point. I've had that hair, and I grew up on beach. I've struggled with self-worth. I unironically adored his faux mink and headband fashion choices. What I'm saying is, representation matters.
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Aug 22, 2023 02:39
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If Barbie is everything, then Ken is an everyman.
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Aug 22, 2023 03:46
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I don't see how the extended 2001: A Space Odyssey riff would land without narration. The gynecologist joke at the end is not just the surprise that she's at a gynecologist rather than a job interview, but that she's ecstatic about it. I have never known another uterus-having person to be thrilled at the prospect of a GYN vist.
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Aug 22, 2023 04:23
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Ghost Leviathan posted:If anything, the whole thing of Barbie having her physical sexual characteristics actively changing from what she's used to in line with her new understanding of her own identity and gearing up to face the new mundane realities of taking care of her body with proper medical specialists is arguably more of a trans narrative than not. That’s only if we deal in vague terms that could apply to just about any narrative involving identity and gender (which is to say: all of them). Barbie becoming human with the help of her creator is very arguably gender-affirming care because, sure, she becomes ‘the woman she wants to be’. But (iirc) the creator doesn’t actually do anything, basically just saying that the power was within her all along or whatever. An inner journey of self-actualisation. Either way, there’s a big difference between gender affirmation as a general concept and “a trans narrative” in particular. The declaration “I am a real woman!” can mean a lot of different things, depending on context - like who’s speaking it. If Barbie is just a white cis woman, after all, the joke has less bite than the one in Spaceballs where the ‘Druish’ princess is shamed for getting rhinoplasty. So, to go more specific: all the Barbies in Barbieland already identify as women at the start of the film, and that never changes. Also, as we’re shown with the character of Doctor Barbie (who is played by a trans actress) the film even takes the phrase “trans women are women” to an apolitical extreme by saying trans people don’t exist in Barbieland. All political distinctions are erased, and Hari Nef is effectively just playing a cis woman too. And, as noted before, that’s a logic akin to ‘racial colourblindness’ - which is not good. A genericized message that can be applied to pretty much everybody inherently benefits those in power more. (See: the ‘multicultural’ libertarian conspiracy theorism of the first Matrix movie, and how it was effortlessly appropriated by white supremacists.) I understand the impulse to appropriate the popular movie and spin it as a progressive text, but it needs to be done very carefully. The concept in the film is more plainly Barbie’s ‘growing up’ as a concept and growing beyond traditional Mattel censorship, which is all very much in keeping with the overall meta-advertisement / ‘redefining the Barbie brand for girls’ story. Barbie getting a vagina doesn’t challenge or subvert that. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 04:42
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Arsenic Lupin posted:I don't see how the extended 2001: A Space Odyssey riff would land without narration. She's a child excited about the prospect of doing an adult task, not really knowing what it entails.
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Aug 22, 2023 04:43
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Liked the movie and agree with this review by one of Germany’s leading non-terfy feminists, translated here:Margarete Stokowski posted:
She’s suffering from long covid to put the “after all this time” into context
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Aug 22, 2023 08:46
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Arsenic Lupin posted:The gynecologist joke at the end is not just the surprise that she's at a gynecologist rather than a job interview, but that she's ecstatic about it. I have never known another uterus-having person to be thrilled at the prospect of a GYN vist. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 14:46
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I like how Ken is enamoured with "patriarchy," but he thinks patriarchy means being liberated from his identity as a trophy wife. He develops his own fashion sense and his relationships with the other Kens becomes more fraternal and less pointlessly competitive. A little thing I've been mulling over is the fake jobs vs. sort-of-real jobs in Barbie World. President Barbie doesn't really do anything, but Trash Collector Barbie is going around collecting (empty) trash cans before Default Barbie wakes up and floats down to the kitchen.
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Aug 22, 2023 15:18
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Wolfsheim posted:not having a narrator so the first five minutes is just an homage to 2001 and then a random mishmash of barbie variants and accessories without a single line of dialogue would be a surreal way to open your breezy comedy lol Here's the thing: everything that the narrator says is explained within the actions of the characters - little girls seeing Barbie and smashing the baby dolls, floating down from the dreamhouse, all the Barbies and Stacies doing all the jobs. The only line the narrator has during the opening sequence that matters is the one explaining Ken's existence as Barbie's accessory.
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Aug 22, 2023 19:09
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Speleothing posted:Here's the thing: everything that the narrator says is explained within the actions of the characters - little girls seeing Barbie and smashing the baby dolls, floating down from the dreamhouse, all the Barbies and Stacies doing all the jobs.
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Aug 22, 2023 20:24
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Without the narration, it isn't funny. Gonna call bullshit on this, 2001 parodies are always funny.
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Aug 22, 2023 20:32
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I think you can defend the narrator laying out the premise of Barbie World, but the 2001 segment in particular is only held back by the narration. The visual storytelling already quite bluntly spells out everything the narrator says, and it's a reference to a scene which famously has no dialogue or narration so the narrator only serves to weaken the parody. It's a testament to the intrinsic humor of the scene that it's still funny in spite of the narrator.
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Aug 22, 2023 21:07
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I dunno, without the narration I might not have noticed that the old dolls were children and intended to funnel girls into motherhood, and only thought of the old dolls as old fashioned looking
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Aug 22, 2023 21:16
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Steve Yun posted:I dunno, without the narration I might not have noticed that the old dolls were children and intended to funnel girls into motherhood, and only thought of the old dolls as old fashioned looking Definitely this.
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Aug 22, 2023 23:16
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I agree. Without the narration, I would have just thought "they don't like their old dolls, and they like this new one." I wouldn't make the connection that the old dolls were for turning them into mothers and the new doll was for letting them be whatever they want to be.
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Aug 23, 2023 00:42
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Huh, I guess I stand corrected then! I suppose I did work as an aide in a daycare for a few years, so I might have internalized some assumptions about different patterns of play that might not otherwise be obvious.
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Aug 23, 2023 00:48
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The narration is key for that, and also for the fact that this movie is aimed at tweens who probably haven't seen 2001.
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Aug 23, 2023 01:01
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Yeah that point was worth emphasizing and it does tie into the overall theme. The idea that the Barbies can be anything is I think tied into the whole "unrealistic expectations" argument- that's long been a criticism of Barbie WRT beauty and body images, but it's also a contrast between the apparent perfection of Barbie Land and reality, they don't have to work to become anything, they just *are* things. There are other parts of the narration that feel kinda bolted on, but I like it for the Margot Robbie line and the bit at the end where she suggests the Kens may eventually get as much power as women do in the real world.
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Aug 23, 2023 01:03
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One reason subtlety is overrated is that for some viewers you genuinely have to explain what you're going for, not even necessarily because they're stupid, but because you can't expect all of them to come from the same background and expectations that would make what might seem obvious to you the same kind of obvious to them.
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Aug 23, 2023 08:44
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with or without the narration the intro gets sort of undercut by the movie itself anyways, as almost immediately the myriad possibilities barbie represented are all written off quickly as jokes for the dolls in which being president is the same as being an astronaut which is the same as being a mermaid (which is the same as, really, "beach"), while motherhood gets a pretty major chunk of the movie's runtime.
Valentin fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Aug 23, 2023 |
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Aug 23, 2023 08:57
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well why not posted:The narration is key for that, and also for the fact that this movie is aimed at tweens who probably haven't seen 2001. I think this is key too. We can analyse the poo poo out of this movie all we like, as the forum is for, but I think on its own terms - as a very enjoyable, funny, ‘Patriarchy Bad 101’ movie - it’s great. It’s a movie that bashes you over the head (which most people need), works perfectly if you don’t overthink it (which most people don’t), and is happy to put comedy above all when it wants (which most people prefer).
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Aug 23, 2023 09:04
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Mellow Seas posted:The main (and very hilarious) joke is that now that Barbie is a real woman, she has a vagina, whereas she previously famously didn’t, so she’s super excited, even to be going through this rather utilitarian aspect of womanhood. Definitely works on multiple levels, though. (We assume it’s a job interview, but Barbie’s entire life has been defined by her jobs, and now she gets to just be A Woman.) And it could be dentist appointment as something medical that every human does (I respect the proctologist suggestion, but surely the audience would be like "is Barbie sick?!"), but as is, it specifically undercuts the idea that being a cis-woman is magical - it just is.
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Aug 23, 2023 16:14
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Ghost Leviathan posted:If anything, the whole thing of Barbie having her physical sexual characteristics actively changing from what she's used to in line with her new understanding of her own identity and gearing up to face the new mundane realities of taking care of her body with proper medical specialists is arguably more of a trans narrative than not. I think that there’s enough to say the film isn’t gender-essentialist, but not really trans-affirmative, like the distinction that exists between feminist camps. In contrast to a post-structuralist approach that denies body limitations, a trans-affirmative work is necessarily more materialist in contending with the person’s subjective experience of the body within a socio-political body. Halloween Jack posted:I like how Ken is enamoured with "patriarchy," but he thinks patriarchy means being liberated from his identity as a trophy wife. He develops his own fashion sense and his relationships with the other Kens becomes more fraternal and less pointlessly competitive. Barbie Land is organized through cultural recognition, with real-world gender dynamics inverted with the Barbies domination of occupations that satisfy the utilitarian ethic, and the low social status of Kens reflecting the domestication of women; but under-class women have always had to formally work. The film's real world expresses this dichotomy in depicting the injustice of the white male dominated board, while repressing the primarily non-white women workforce exploited in sweatshop factories.
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Aug 23, 2023 17:32
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Jakabite posted:I think this is key too. We can analyse the poo poo out of this movie all we like, as the forum is for, but I think on its own terms - as a very enjoyable, funny, ‘Patriarchy Bad 101’ movie - it’s great. It’s a movie that bashes you over the head (which most people need), works perfectly if you don’t overthink it (which most people don’t), and is happy to put comedy above all when it wants (which most people prefer). Yeah, it's this. Personally, I was hoping for a movie that says "the pink tax is dumb af" not a movie that kinda glorifies the pink part of the pink tax. I understand that criticism is entirely on me, most people are totally fine with what this was.
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Aug 23, 2023 17:33
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the holy poopacy posted:Gonna call bullshit on this, 2001 parodies are always funny. not for kids. they don't know what the gently caress 2001 is lol
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Aug 23, 2023 19:02
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The REAL Goobusters posted:not for kids. they don't know what the gently caress 2001 is lol that's nonsense, i just saw a 2001 parody on the Simpsons....30 years ago!
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Aug 23, 2023 19:26
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18 year olds today were born in 2005 if you want to feel horrible about everything. You're welcome.
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Aug 23, 2023 19:28
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Well I definitely feel bad for them, their entire life has existed in a dogshit cultural wasteland, a real nadir of modern civilization (I'm sure the coming climate catastrophe will make this look like the good old days to them, sadly).
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Aug 23, 2023 19:56
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Alternatively, though, they have more access to a century of music and film than any generation before them. The closest thing I have to that feeling is being on the tail end of having to look things up in actual encyclopedias for answers, supplanted by internet searches pretty quickly.
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Aug 23, 2023 20:03
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KVeezy3 posted:I think that there’s enough to say the film isn’t gender-essentialist, but not really trans-affirmative, like the distinction that exists between feminist camps. In contrast to a post-structuralist approach that denies body limitations, a trans-affirmative work is necessarily more materialist in contending with the person’s subjective experience of the body within a socio-political body. Yeah; you got a movie like WALL-E (a fuckin’ Disney-Pixar joint, even!) that blasts Barbie out of the water with its many gender gags, since it’s all grounded in the robots’ embodiment.
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Aug 23, 2023 20:05
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Yeah; you got a movie like WALL-E (a fuckin’ Disney-Pixar joint, even!) that blasts Barbie out of the water with its many gender gags, since it’s all grounded in the robots’ embodiment. Heh, blasts. Because the girl robot has a blaster cannon and uses it liberally.
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Aug 24, 2023 04:15
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