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Men as a group might be lost, but Post readers have a lot of ideas for directions. Tucked within my Opinions Essay last month was a request for reader feedback: “Who is your ideal of masculinity, and what characteristics do they embody? Tell The Post.” The responses were numerous — nearly 350 readers replied — and unusually thoughtful. Readers cited a wide range of sources for masculine inspiration, from the NBA to the Bible, PBS to the frat house. At the same time, certain figures came up again and again; men, it seems, really look up to Mister Rogers and Barack Obama, and the Rudyard Kipling poem “If— ” has lost none of its power since it was written over a century ago. While almost every respondent expressed hesitation at trying to pin down an exact masculine ideal, a clear set of traits emerged. Below are just a few of the many excellent responses we received. This selection focuses on replies from male readers. But don’t worry, female readers, I read your takes, too: They might be fodder for a future piece! 1 Story and song Media matters: Books, movies, songs and television provided many readers with their go-to masculine archetypes. What did these examples have in common? Most were fathers, leaders of men, or a combination of both. All were flawed but purpose-driven — in many cases proving their masculinity as they worked to become better versions of themselves. Uncle Iroh from “Avatar: The Last Airbender.” He is written to show emotions, deeply troubled by the loss of his only son. He is steadfastly caring for his nephew, whom he views as initially lost but helps guide to a path of belonging. He is not helpless, understands the struggles of others and presents those he meets with kindness first. — John Burgin, 34, Knoxville, Tenn. The Man/The Father from Cormac McCarthy’s “The Road.” He’s a flawed, fragile, dying man, laboring in a world in which there is no apparent room or need for goodness. He is beset on all sides by hunger, distress, despair and occasional violence. And yet, he is driven to instill in his son a sense of purpose that, hopefully, will one day germinate into hope. — Matt Lacroix, 41, Stoughton, Mass. King David made a name for himself by slaying the intimidating giant, Goliath, while yet a boy. He was a protector of the people he loved. But David was as much a poet as he was a warrior. The Bible attributes about one-half of the Psalms to him, suggesting the Israeli king was anything but emotionally stunted. His affection for his friend Jonathan was so deep that it leads many modern readers to conclude he was gay. David’s adultery was toxic, the murder of Bathsheba’s husband as a coverup was reprehensible. But zooming out on his infamous adultery incident, we see a man broken over his sin: a tender heart that accepts responsibility for his failures. Real men slay dragons. They also dance, express their emotions, cultivate friendships and write poetry. — Sean Nolan, Albany, N.Y., 37 I’d say Captains Jean-Luc Picard, Jonathan Archer, Benjamin Sisko, Christopher Pike and, yes, even James Tiberius Kirk. For me personally, I long for, and set as my own ideal to strive for, the quiet American. Reserved but not unemotional. Hard-working but not to the exclusion of all else. Competitive, certainly, but not win-at-all-costs. Optimistic and hopeful as a goal, but always realistic. Empathetic and caring, but also calm and clearheaded in a storm. A person who appreciates and works on their individualness but knows that the individual can’t be separate from community. There has to be a larger purpose than yourself. — B. Keane, Washington I’m not sure why, but I always think of Johnny Cash when I think about what being a man is all about. I think it has something to do with the song “Man in Black,” particularly the line “I’ll try to carry off a little darkness on my back, till things are brighter, I’m the man in black.” In some way, this encompasses what manliness is to me, to try to be tough for the sake of others — whom you protect and look out for. — Joel Witkowski, 47, Oak Harbor, Ohio 2 Dads Fathers (and father figures) matter. A significant number of readers cited their fathers and grandfathers as the closest and clearest examples of masculinity that they could find: dedicated, self-sacrificing, strong (in many senses) and kind. The responses were heartwarming to read but also make America’s rising rates of fatherlessness all the more worrying. My father, William D., born in 1930 and now passed, was the quintessential man. Why? Because he embraced accountability and responsibility. He never complained, because that was beneath him. He walked tall, looked others straight in the eye and had a firm, strong handshake. He lived the rule of “family first” and that a real man takes care of those he loves, first and foremost. He served his nation in the U.S. Army beginning at the age of 17 for 21 years, and when he was called to serve in Vietnam near the end of his career, he went willingly, because that was his duty. While there, he was awarded the Bronze Star for physically carrying an injured soldier from an ordnance-littered field, thinking of that soldier before himself. He provided not only for his family but also others as he could afford. He wasn’t an easy man to know, but he embraced the core values that made him the man he was and that his three sons embraced. — William Ramsey, 70, San Rafael, Calif. My dad is often described as having a rough exterior. At first glance, you wouldn’t expect him to be the sensitive type. If you asked him, he’d likely say that the most important parts of manhood are loyalty and honesty, and that if you have those, you’re good to go. While I do agree with him, there’s a much rarer and softer quality he displays in private moments. Rather than killing insects or rodents that find their way into our home, he does everything he can to return them outside so they can keep living. He’ll buy my mom flowers just because, or mow our elderly neighbor’s lawn and refuse to take credit for it. — Aidan McGuire, 19, Evanston, Wyo. My dad. He was really smart, loved my mom and us kids, taught me how to hunt and fish, educated me on our ancestry and the things that are important in life, was a gun-safety nut (ex-FBI and enforced it — if I pointed a cap gun at a friend when we were playing, I would lose my gun), taught me about being a Catholic and loving my neighbor (his favorite saying was “Everyone puts their pants on one leg at a time”), and believed in me. He has been gone for years, but I still miss his calls on Sunday. — Patrick Donoho, 71, Vienna, Md. 3 Teachers As I pointed out in the essay, nearly every thinker on the masculinity problem has advocated getting more male teachers into classrooms, as a way to build healthy relationships of mentorship and uplift from a young age. That point was borne out by readers: Many respondents told heartfelt stories of the teachers who had modeled positive masculinity — often in the absence of father figures in readers’ own lives. My ideal of masculinity was my high school English teacher. I was never interested in sports or cars and trucks. I’m still not and find them to be a waste of money. But my high school English teacher demonstrated that you can be mature and, dare I say, attractive to women and have intellectual interests, be creative, and travel to places that are interesting. My English teacher was in the Army, so I joined the Navy that he supported, which led to free education. — Gregory Harshfield, 50, Phoenix I attended a one-room schoolhouse from fifth grade on, and that first year, my teacher was Guy Stockwell, actor and brother of Dean Stockwell. He was a loving, compassionate man and an excellent teacher, juggling all eight grades masterfully: primary grades in the morning, fourth through eighth in the afternoons. Every Wednesday afternoon, we’d go outside, weather permitting, and he’d read to us under a large pine in the schoolyard. I particularly remember Tom Sawyer, Twain’s prose and Mr. Stockwell’s superb reading, which brought it all alive. A dozen-odd kids who could’ve been unruly instead hung on every word. He seemed to me to have it all: intelligence, commitment and boundaries, although this was a much-delayed realization. — Patrick Bell, 77, Sacramento 4 Public figures Despite increasing polarization, there are still public figures whom men respect, and many of the same names came up repeatedly. While these men come from various fields — sports, politics, Hollywood — they were cited as masculine ideals because they displayed certain common traits. Strength, responsibility, hard work and toughness were cited often. But so were emotional awareness, moral uprightness, care for others and respect for women, with many readers lauding these figures for being family men. Fred Rogers of “Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood.” The man spent his entire career striving to cater to and teach the world’s most vulnerable: very small children. His lesson was simple and threefold: You are unique, you are special, and (most importantly) you are loved. I look at Fred as espousing the more covert masculine traits, including emotional awareness (men might not talk about it, but we definitely feel emotions!), contemplation, gentleness, eye-level contact, sensitivity, compassion, love — you know, all the things we look for in an archetypal father figure. — Ryan Buchmann, 50, San Diego Confident, smart, unafraid of emotion (good and bad), tolerant and understanding. We are generally more aggressive than women (thank you, testosterone), but the best of us channel that aggressiveness in nontoxic ways to improve ourselves and the world around us. Some public figures who embody this might include: Anson Mount, Barack Obama and LeBron James. In all of these cases, these are people who do not blur the line of their own gender or take on feminine characteristics but are able to thrive in the world we are in now. — Belton Myers, 58, Wheaton, Md. David Robinson, the celebrated retired center from the San Antonio Spurs. He graduated from the Naval Academy and thereafter served his country before pursuing his Hall of Fame career in the NBA, where he eschewed the limelight and dedicated himself to righteous causes he pursues to this day. He also had the ramrod military straightest posture in the NBA. — Kennard Machol, 72, Salt Lake City Barack Obama. I don’t know him personally. But he has been under such intense scrutiny that I think I can be sure he is the real deal. He has the ancient Roman virtues of honesty, fortitude, grace, strength, protectiveness, respect, vision, individuality, self-confidence, persistence, focus, and fidelity to law and custom. He is also very, very funny: the best witticisms in the history of the presidency. He’s a family man. — David Nelson, 76, Miami and Asunción, Paraguay George Clooney: a man who exhibits the “traditional” aspects of masculinity but does so with a modern interpretation. He embraces all of the things men are conditioned to enjoy: sports, motorcycles, cars, a night out with “the boys,” attention to fitness/appearance, a passion for his career and an appreciation for beautiful women. As he’s aged, he’s taken on the responsibility of being a loving partner who supports his wife’s career and a dedicated parent who has adjusted his career ambitions to better support his family, and he’s stopped riding motorcycles because of the risk to his health and the impact it might have on his family. Clooney does not lack self-awareness — he understands his privilege. He is principled and an advocate for those without a voice. — Philip Wyman, 43, Washington Jesus Christ. He learned from his adoptive father how to work with his hands as a craftsman. He spent much of his time mentoring other men. He respected and valued women — he listened to them, taught them, included them among his followers and accepted support from them. He openly expressed all kinds of emotions, including joy and sorrow. He showed love and compassion to all kinds of people, including the outcasts of society. He enjoyed a good party and on one occasion even provided the wine. He boldly stood up for his beliefs and never backed down, even when opposed by powerful people. He suffered and sacrificed his life to save billions of others. He proved to be stronger than all his enemies, including death (by his resurrection). — Robert MacEwen, 58, Badhoevedorp, the Netherlands 5 The importance of character In the modern moment, masculinity is too often represented by physical attributes: a certain height, a particular look, the right set of “masculine” accessories — whether that’s Andrew Tate’s sports cars or Bronze Age Pervert’s weightlifting regime. But a better ideal of masculinity is, as I put it in the essay, “a vision of gender that’s not androgynous but still equal, and relies on character, not just biology.“ Readers agreed. Even if some couldn’t name a specific man as their masculine exemplar, they had a clear idea of what the ideal would be. I was fascinated by how many of the responses highlighted a very particular set of values: self-knowledge, honesty, responsibility, duty and a dedication to helping others, especially those weaker than oneself. As a gay man, I have often been dismissed from discussions about masculinity. Few understand that we had no male role models to guide us in defining masculinity as we grew up. We had to figure it out on our own and define it in ways that resonated with us. In my view, true masculinity requires a man to know himself deeply and live honestly, without apologies or concerns about the judgments of others. Masculinity is like a buffet, offering a wide range of options from which we can choose. Hobbies and work are not gendered, and men would do well to accept this fully. — F. Michael Bremer-Cruz, 57, Gaithersburg, Md. Be competent in a career of choice. Be kind. Be open-minded. Be clean. Be fit. Be a solution. Own it. — Jerry Hall, 67, Scottsdale, Ariz. To be a 21st-century male in America means: You are independent, strong in your beliefs, but have an open mind. You can sit and debate politics and socioeconomic trends but know who the winning QB was in last year’s SB (Mahomes). You cook. You love it, actually — because it’s creative … and you get to use fire and provide something delicious for you and your household. You’re self-sufficient. You change your own oil. You’re genuinely curious about things that you don’t know anything about. You. Don’t. Cheat. Ever. Nothing is sexier nor more powerfully affirming than being a rock-solid mate for your partner. It’s not that hard, guys. You help in any way possible. Your neighbor needs a tool? Done. Another parent needs a pinch hitter because they’re working a double shift? You’re there for their kids. Your neighborhood needs hands to clean up the block? You get after it. You’re not afraid of hard work — but it’s not your everything. You balance those things so that you’re present for your partner, your family, your friends. — Ben Eberle, 42, Conway, Mass. Men should listen attentively, keep an open mind, use their strength for the betterment of all, use words instead of fists, not play with guns, and never, never, never strike a woman. Men are at their best when protecting and defending women. — Bennett Werner, 71, Cape May, N.J. To be a “man,” one must be a mature male human being. It’s that simple. When does one become mature? When one accepts and executes the responsibilities of the mature person to the very best of one’s ability. Those who depend on you are certain you will do your duty of responsibility or die trying. Males who threaten and bully those who are weaker or not in a position to defend themselves are not men but cowardly boys beneath contempt. The things I speak of here are traits of character, not muscle. You can sit at a desk all day and still be a man: honest, fair, dependable, pay your debts, keep your word, have the courage of your convictions and, above all, quietly take responsibility when it is yours to take. Then you are no longer a child, you are no longer a boy, you have earned respect, you have become a man. — John Lunde, 73, St. Paul, Minn. 6 Anti-idealists As I wrote elsewhere, some of the consistent pushback to this essay came from those who believed that the search for a “masculine ideal” was an unnecessary and self-defeating project. I disagree, but it’s a point worth considering. I don’t think I have an “ideal of masculinity” precisely because I reject the term. When I hear the term “masculine,” I shudder because the likes of Josh Hawley and the incel movement have taken over the term. I see “men” driving enormous trucks — clean and sparkling because they’ve never been used for actual work — and I think, “He’s compensating for something.” — Peter Hornbein, 70, Boulder, Colo. The very question of what constitutes ideal masculinity is, at best, a fool’s errand and, at worst, dangerous. It also might lie at the heart of why we are losing young men to cults of toxic masculinity. The minute you define this false ideal, you are falsely defining those who don’t meet the ideal. — Craig Culp, 63, Gaithersburg, Md. 7 A final word Readers’ responses frequently mixed uncertainty with idealism; as the essay says, it’s not always easy to give voice to what a man should be. But even if masculinity is hard to grasp, many of us clearly still see it as a worthy goal. And, perhaps, manhood is forged in the trying. I don’t have an ideal and I don’t know why. I wanted one, that’s for sure. I grew up without a dad, and in the workforce, I only met guys like me. I’ve had male friends who were older-brother types, but I had to abandon the friendships because of some serious bad habits. There have been movie actors who seemed to provide a masculine image, but you were fooling yourself if you latched on and did not understand that it was “playacting” and fake. So, at the end of the day, in my 60s, I look at myself in the mirror; I’ve worked my whole life, never took a handout, was stoic during tough times, tried not to gossip or talk smack as it is known, and did things I thought were masculine: repaired roofs, helped friends move, stood up to bullies, played sports, fixed cars, etc. I look at myself, shrug at myself and walk away from the mirror, thinking, What does it matter anyway? We live alone, we die alone. Maybe that’s as masculine as it gets. — J. G. Falco, 61, Austin
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Aug 17, 2023 03:13
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Some Guy TT posted:Men as a group might be lost, but Post readers have a lot of ideas for directions. didnt read
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Aug 17, 2023 03:25
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Some Guy TT posted:Jesus Christ. Superstar.
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Aug 17, 2023 03:26
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I like the part where they describe their dreamy handsome teachers they had a crush on
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Aug 17, 2023 03:28
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truly this is feminism
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Aug 17, 2023 12:12
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Ohtori Akio posted:didnt read
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Aug 17, 2023 12:31
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He is written to show emotions
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Aug 17, 2023 14:05
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Private Cumshoe posted:Superstar. Let me tell you about the original "woke bae" *sits backward in chair*
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Aug 17, 2023 21:34
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what the gently caress is this World chess federation bars transgender women from competing in women's events abcnews.go.com posted:GENEVA -- The world's top chess federation has ruled that transgender women cannot compete in its official events for women until its officials make an assessment of gender change.
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Aug 18, 2023 20:08
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lol that 99% of trans panic is just warmed over sexism for the modern age trans women won against men so their titles stay since the ~male mind~ is better at chess. trans men won against women so their titles are obviously invalid with ~male mind~ T-doping.
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Aug 18, 2023 20:16
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:It rules that these fucks can't keep it together for enough paragraphs to make a point and can never stop themselves from falling back into their psycho insanely online shibboleths. Nonbinary fuckhouses! Lizzo slut walk front hole! Intravenous soyboy viagra! I'm the normal one actually! *lead singer of placebo-ishly* meet the nonbinary fuckhouse
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Aug 19, 2023 03:19
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Aug 19, 2023 05:49
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Wokescolds destroying gaming (lauditive)
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Aug 19, 2023 07:05
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never thought of chess players as gamers, but it's true
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Aug 19, 2023 13:39
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tokin opposition posted:lol that 99% of trans panic is just warmed over sexism for the modern age if you do a line of T do you game harder?
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Aug 19, 2023 13:40
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mawarannahr posted:never thought of chess players as gamers, but it's true
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Aug 19, 2023 15:16
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A Buttery Pastry posted:they're the original gamers Curse of Ra on you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Game_of_Ur
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Aug 20, 2023 16:31
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War and Pieces posted:Curse of Ra on you second, a game alone does not a gamer make
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Aug 20, 2023 16:46
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A Buttery Pastry posted:first of all, it should clearly be the Curse of Ninurta Well yeah, it can't be a mobile game, obviously
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Aug 20, 2023 18:17
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mawarannahr posted:if you do a line of T do you game harder? I was given T shots for a few years like 10 years ago (my suboxone doctor at the time prescribed them because my levels were apparently low, which I think was attributed to the suboxone). I didn't really notice much of a change in anything. I think there's a lot of placebo going on with men who are like "I felt so strong and vitalized after getting on testosterone." I don't doubt that it'd make a difference in certain circumstances, but it's definitely overstated by a lot of people.
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Aug 20, 2023 18:29
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Ytlaya posted:I was given T shots for a few years like 10 years ago (my suboxone doctor at the time prescribed them because my levels were apparently low, which I think was attributed to the suboxone). maybe it helps to feel strong and vitalized if you don't take a central nervous system depressant at the same time.
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Aug 21, 2023 10:27
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Some Guy TT posted:https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1641261748962447361 What is feminism minus Identity politics? Would`nt that just leave corporate style "lean in" feminism for educated white women?
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Aug 21, 2023 17:22
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there was actually a push in the late nineties and early aughts to move away from a woman oriented theory of gender to a more inclusive one a lot of universities started describing themselves as teaching gender studies rather than womens studies to this end what prompted this was reactionary criticism of feminism as being man hating while a lot of this was disingenuous it did point to a messaging issue by the nineties much academic feminism had moved on to more inclusive forms of gender theory which posited that men among others were also negatively affected by gender roles this came alongside a push to get more men involved in gender studies as a discipline which is how i got interested in it by the time we get to the fourth wave this kind of thought had obviously fallen out of fashion which really sucks because the kind of adversarial thinking common today really isnt constructive like at all feminists telling men they deserve to suffer in mandatory military service to balance the scales of oppression does absolutely nothing to endear men to a cause that they should be supporting and its also a big reason why weve seen such a huge resurgence in terf beliefs
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Aug 21, 2023 17:38
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we invented transgenderism in the 1990's and it was too powerful, the gender studies equivalent of oppenheimer, oppenthemimer.
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Aug 21, 2023 17:41
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Weka posted:maybe it helps to feel strong and vitalized if you don't take a central nervous system depressant at the same time. The whole point of the testosterone was to address it dropping from the suboxone, which it successfully did. Being on a CNS depressant that you've fully adjusted (and developed tolerance) to doesn't drain you of physical energy, for the same reason it doesn't slow down your breathing like it would for someone with no tolerance (though I think it does gently caress with dopamine in some way, but that's probably caused by the buprenorphine in suboxone binding to your opioid receptors or something, rather than anything related to being a CNS depressant - taking Ritalin while on suboxone did almost nothing, so there's something weird going on there). Testosterone injections probably don't make a significant difference unless you have extremely low levels to start with or take some amount that gets you above a normal healthy level (or into its upper range at least). IIRC my levels were at like 170 or 190 or something like that prior to the injections, where the normal range is 300-1000, and the injections just got me a couple hundred higher than that and into the healthy range. If someone was like <100 the impact of getting back into a healthy range would probably be greater. I also think it's similar to many antidepressants, where there's frequently a placebo when people are expecting a lot from it (not that they don't also genuinely work sometimes, but there's a lot of placebo going on most of the time people are like "I felt so much energy after taking _____!"). Like some guy thinking "raargh, I'm roided up and strong now!" and that change in mindset influencing their mood/energy.
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Aug 22, 2023 01:31
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Baudolino posted:What is feminism minus Identity politics? Would`nt that just leave corporate style "lean in" feminism for educated white women? technically i already answered this but i just wanted to add that lean in feminism is just a rebranding of choice feminism without the tradwife elements which is to say its just libertarianism except good if being done by a woman so lean in feminism is actually rhetorically impossible unless youre heavily invested in identity politics because you cant actually defend either practice unless youre taking the position that anything a woman does is inherently feminist and can only be described as morally compromising if a man is doing it god it depresses me thinking about how these all seemed like obvious settled questions fifteen years ago
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Aug 22, 2023 06:18
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Some Guy TT posted:there was actually a push in the late nineties and early aughts to move away from a woman oriented theory of gender to a more inclusive one a lot of universities started describing themselves as teaching gender studies rather than womens studies to this end To seriously respond to this post, I think you're overstating how much this fell out of fashion. Most of the programs that I looked at for grad school (I was stupid once) were all gender studies and most would expand even further. My would-be alma mater called it gender, women, and sexuality studies and featured several courses specifically on masculinity and men's topics - even the intro level stuff hammered on the ways patriarchy harms men. Most academic feminism - the kind that don't spend all day on twitter ofc, but this is a problem in every field now - is still solidly third wave and examines online behavior as only one part of wider gender theory. Butler is and was and forever shall be one of the biggest influences on the topic and her entire body of work can basically be defined as postmodern marxist transgenderism. As always, the weirdos online are a small minority with an oversized presence in the online noosphere and not representative of anything but freaks and teenagers.
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Aug 22, 2023 07:02
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Some Guy TT posted:technically i already answered this but i just wanted to add that lean in feminism is just a rebranding of choice feminism without the tradwife elements which is to say its just libertarianism except good if being done by a woman so lean in feminism is actually rhetorically impossible unless youre heavily invested in identity politics because you cant actually defend either practice unless youre taking the position that anything a woman does is inherently feminist and can only be described as morally compromising if a man is doing it academics make new inroads to knowlege, popular culture route them into a sewer, and goons misquote italian fiction authors about popular culture. Nothing's new under the sun when it comes to this. :p
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Aug 22, 2023 07:04
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tokin opposition posted:we invented transgenderism in the 1990's and it was too powerful, the gender studies equivalent of oppenheimer, oppenthemimer.
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Aug 22, 2023 07:43
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tokin opposition posted:Most academic feminism - the kind that don't spend all day on twitter ofc, but this is a problem in every field now - is still solidly third wave and examines online behavior as only one part of wider gender theory. Butler is and was and forever shall be one of the biggest influences on the topic and her entire body of work can basically be defined as postmodern marxist transgenderism. yeah this is why there used to be a lot of dispute about whether the fourth wave actually even exists i kind of make it sound like its a thing that started in 2011 with slutwalk and changed feminism forever but even five years ago you could claim with some credibility that we were still in the third wave because for all practical intents and purposes you were still in the third wave as long as you didnt engage with online bullshit
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Aug 22, 2023 07:51
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Idpol is about an atomised and incoherent understanding of oppression with material conditions and class surgically removed, which ends up basically an excuse to attack almost anyone you want by framing them as part of the oppressor class. Applied to feminism you get 'the patriarchy' consisting of literally all men and thus all men are valid targets you can beat up for clout and to feel good, and never be the bad guy. And obviously you go after the weakest possible targets under the category of 'men' because the ones with actual power and money are scary and might fight back. Of course even that kinda went out of fashion since 2016 ish for various reasons but it's still the mindset at its core, mostly upper class wealthy women aren't going to let go of the framework where they get to be the brave oppressed resistance who can do no wrong, and that's the TERF mindset.
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Aug 22, 2023 07:54
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Interesting answers. But none of you beleive the academic rethoric really has that much of an impact on how men relate to feminism? Social media made the rise of the manfluencers like Tate ineventiable. I dont think it was a coincidence that term Incel was coined just a few years after everyone joined Facebook and Twitter. was still new and exciting. Many of the wayward pornbrained men of the 21st century were always destined to be against it. Trying to rename it would`nt work either. You would just weaken the brand so to speak.
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Aug 22, 2023 21:42
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Baudolino posted:What is feminism minus Identity politics? Would`nt that just leave corporate style "lean in" feminism for educated white women? abortion birth control lactation childcare healthcare hrt etc
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Aug 24, 2023 13:54
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Basically corporate style 'lean in' white rich women feminism IS feminism plus identity politics, the whole point is that idpol does the exact opposite of what it advertises
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Aug 24, 2023 14:08
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War and Pieces posted:abortion birth control lactation childcare healthcare hrt etc is there a leftist argument for wetnurses what if they got paid the same wage as the girlboss whose employing them?
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Aug 24, 2023 14:17
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Baudolino posted:Social media made the rise of the manfluencers like Tate ineventiable. I dont think it was a coincidence that term Incel was coined just a few years after everyone joined Facebook and Twitter. was still new and exciting. Many of the wayward pornbrained men of the 21st century were always destined to be against it. i disagree with a lot of this conceptualization because mras and similar concepts existed pre internet and you cant really look at their ideology and say it was significantly different than andrew tate what makes andrew tate more important than say dave sim isnt that the internet exists its that feminists define themselves as oppositional to reactionary thought in a way that they didnt used to this is a deliberate fourth wave construction developed in the belief that reactionary arguments are so naturally weak they can be easily strawmanned the problem with this thinking aside from the fact you have to intentionally spread reactionary thought in order to use it is that it promotes overconfidence and forces you to assume anyone wearing the right color hat is beyond reproach which directly leads to public relations fiascos like what happened with amber heard and johnny depp
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Aug 24, 2023 15:29
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Baudolino posted:Interesting answers. Incel was coined by a cis lesbian about her own dating experiences in Toronto actually. In the 90s.
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Aug 24, 2023 15:51
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Well forget about social media for moment then. I still dont buy that the chosen rethoric of academic gender scholars are going to move the opinon of the average Joe Beergut very much.
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Aug 24, 2023 15:56
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I don't wade through the muck of incel spaces, but I don't think Tate is popular with incels. Tate presents himself as an aspirational figure, and the shibboleth of inceldom is believing that you can't really change. Tate is alarming because he's popular with normal middle-to-high school boys who want to get laid some day. This is in contrast to e.g. Jordan Peterson, who is popular with maladjusted nerds because he presents himself as a maladjusted nerd.
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Aug 24, 2023 15:59
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Halloween Jack posted:I don't wade through the muck of incel spaces, but I don't think Tate is popular with incels. this is a really unhealthy trend with feminism and liberals in general imo is an unwillingness to acknowledge that different kinds of reactionaries have different motivations to the point their beliefs are often mutually exclusive and they may well hate each other like even if you take the position that its ok to do a little misinformation as a treat in the name of a greater purpose what exactly is the greater purpose here convincing people that misogynists have already taken over all of society how is that helpful
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Aug 24, 2023 16:08
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