Warhammer: After 18 years, finally an end

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Deptfordx: Dec 23, 2013

Arc Hammer posted:

Look the heroes are the Orks with no downsides.

At least until they wrote those damned War if the Beast books and made the greenskins unfun

I'd love to hear a BL insiders view of what on earth they thought they were doing with that series. It was a goddamn mess.

# ? Aug 26, 2023 21:24

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# ? May 10, 2024 21:55

Philthy: Jan 28, 2003; Pillbug

Finally finished The End and the Death, I'm all caught up. Despite ragging on Abnett using his word-a-day desktop calendar, it was a pretty fantastic book. It is a worthy conclusion to this series so far in my opinion, and I hope he can pull off the final two volumes just as well.

It feels like we're finally getting closure on a lot of the mysteries surrounding the Emperor, and the current timeline. Crazy.

He also had a copy of the Necronomicon in his 888 vault stash. al-Azif. He was into some poo poo.

# ? Aug 26, 2023 21:52

wiegieman: Apr 22, 2010; Royalty is a continuous cutting motion

Philthy posted:

He also had a copy of the Necronomicon in his 888 vault stash. al-Azif. He was into some poo poo.

He sacked the tower of Babel to steal their secrets. Big E was a sorcerer.

I'd go so far as to say that the unifying feature of all the cults calling themselves the cognitae is that they survived him hunting them.

# ? Aug 26, 2023 21:55

Nuclear Tourist: Apr 7, 2005

Pron on VHS posted:

The scenes with Ra and the emperor are among the best in all of HH. Man I love MoM

I can only echo that Master of Mankind is fantastic, definitely one of the best HH books IMO. Love the ending when the Custodian is talking to the Emperor and he's desperately trying to fish for answers as to how the heresy will pan out and what will happen to the Imperium. He goes "what happens now??? what comes next???" and the Emperor basically goes "gently caress if I know lmao" it's just chef's kiss.

Nuclear Tourist fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Aug 26, 2023

# ? Aug 26, 2023 22:14

Black Griffon: Mar 12, 2005; Now, in the quantum moment before the closure, when all become one. One moment left. One point of space and time.

I know who you are. You are destiny.

It's also such a good contrast to that Graham story about Horus fighting alongside the emperor (see I can be critical of my boy McNeill) because there it's like "he fight real good", but in MoM it's like an ethereal titan carving through reality.

# ? Aug 26, 2023 22:30

MariusLecter: Sep 5, 2009; NI MUERTE NI MIEDO

Black Griffon posted:

It's also such a good contrast to that Graham story about Horus fighting alongside the emperor (see I can be critical of my boy McNeill) because there it's like "he fight real good", but in MoM it's like an ethereal titan carving through reality.

There was also the other book a world eater tells Angron about seeing the emperor fight, "With each blow he didn't just kill them, he RUINED them." Think he described the emperor coming down like a shooting star or a comet and making a massive crater on landing among enemies also.

# ? Aug 26, 2023 23:03

Black Griffon: Mar 12, 2005; Now, in the quantum moment before the closure, when all become one. One moment left. One point of space and time.

I know who you are. You are destiny.

Yeah I feel like even "the Emperor fighting" as a concept and a sentence is lacking. The Emperor acts, and consequences follow.

Anyway, I finished Brutal Kunnin'. It was very fun, though not very good I think. Part of that was on the narration though. Tom Allenby sounds like an excited tabletop GM, and it's very charming, but he mispronounces words, his voices aren't all there and his inflection and diction stumbles. Still gonna listen to Warboss, after... ugh. Old Earth.

# ? Aug 26, 2023 23:52

MariusLecter: Sep 5, 2009; NI MUERTE NI MIEDO

Black Griffon posted:

Yeah I feel like even "the Emperor fighting" as a concept and a sentence is lacking. The Emperor acts, and consequences follow.

Yeah, the world eater telling Angron about it wanted to leave a similar impression.

# ? Aug 27, 2023 00:42

wiegieman: Apr 22, 2010; Royalty is a continuous cutting motion

Angron's insane, wrathful, hateful self confidence is its own kind of power. Not the greatest kind of power, and a slave's power, but still power.

# ? Aug 27, 2023 02:41

Pantaloon Pontiff: Jun 25, 2023

Telsa Cola posted:

Also a large part of the xenophobia present in 30-40k is implied to be a result of a poo poo ton of alien races dogpiling humanity when everything started to go to poo poo.

While the Emperor might have been influenced by aliens dogpiling during the end of the DAOT, xenocide is the explicit policy of the Imperium from the start of the Great Crusade. Horus tries to go against it (and ends up failing as part of his fall), but I quoted Horus's explanation because it doesn't hold up. Of course every alien form they met was hostile, Earth was sending out war fleets with a policy of 'we must not suffer the alien' rather than diplomats or explorers.

Horus Rising posted:

Abaddon was not smiling. �The Emperor, beloved of all,� he began, �enfranchised us to do his bidding and make known space safe for human habitation. His edicts are unequivocal. We must suffer not the alien, nor the uncontrolled psyker, safeguard against the darkness of the warp, and unify the dislocated pockets of mankind. That is our charge. Anything else is sacrilege against his wishes.�

�And one of his wishes,� said Horus, �was that I should be Warmaster, his sole regent, and strive to make his dreams reality. The crusade was born out of the Age of Strife, Ezekyle. Born out of war. Our ruthless approach of conquest and cleansing was formulated in a time when every alien form we met was hostile, every fragment of humanity that was not with us was profoundly opposed to us. War was the only answer. There was no room for subtlety, but two centuries have passed, and different problems face us. The bulk of war is over. That is why the Emperor returned to Terra and left us to finish the work. Ezekyle, the people of the interex are clearly not monsters, nor resolute foes. I believe that if the Emperor were with us today, he would immediately embrace the need for adaptation. He would not want us to wantonly destroy that which there is no good reason to destroy. It is precisely to make such choices that he has placed his trust in me.�

# ? Aug 27, 2023 07:18

SardonicTyrant: Feb 26, 2016; BTICH IM A NEWT
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AndyElusive posted:

This discussion is why when people look at the Emperor they all see something and someone different.

The Emperor attempted to conquer mankind's need for worship of unknowable gods by becoming an unknowable god. As someone whose dad pressured them to go into law school it makes perfect sense to me.

# ? Aug 27, 2023 07:51

Demiurge4: Aug 10, 2011

wiegieman posted:

Angron's insane, wrathful, hateful self confidence is its own kind of power. Not the greatest kind of power, and a slave's power, but still power.

There's a concept in the Kill Six Billion Demons comic where true royalty acts without thought or caution. If you simply refuse to acknowledge you've been struck a killing blow you can be immortal, I like that as an extension of the warp in 40k because it rides a lot of the same concepts where what humanity collectively believes is true, becomes reality.

# ? Aug 27, 2023 08:29

SardonicTyrant: Feb 26, 2016; BTICH IM A NEWT
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Demiurge4 posted:

There's a concept in the Kill Six Billion Demons comic where true royalty acts without thought or caution. If you simply refuse to acknowledge you've been struck a killing blow you can be immortal, I like that as an extension of the warp in 40k because it rides a lot of the same concepts where what humanity collectively believes is true, becomes reality.

Also the same idea in Elden Ring, Radahn is an berserk monster by the time you fight him but he uses a form of magic fueled by furious dumbassery

# ? Aug 27, 2023 08:39

Gravitas Shortfall: Jul 17, 2007; Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.

Jagganoth from Six Billion Demons is very much like Angron would be without the nails.

# ? Aug 27, 2023 08:41

habeasdorkus: Nov 3, 2013; Royalty is a continuous shitposting motion.

I like that the Emperor is so unknowable, and that there's multiple motivations for him. It leaves open multiple interpretations of whether things could have been different and how, without really sacrificing anything that makes the setting bleak.

# ? Aug 27, 2023 13:47

DAD LOST MY IPOD: Feb 3, 2012; Fats Dominar is on the case

Pantaloon Pontiff posted:

While the Emperor might have been influenced by aliens dogpiling during the end of the DAOT, xenocide is the explicit policy of the Imperium from the start of the Great Crusade. Horus tries to go against it (and ends up failing as part of his fall), but I quoted Horus's explanation because it doesn't hold up. Of course every alien form they met was hostile, Earth was sending out war fleets with a policy of 'we must not suffer the alien' rather than diplomats or explorers.

In my opinion the absolute best encapsulation of this principle is in Misbegotten, a short story lodged in one of the awful mid-HH anthologies. It�s sort of a prequel to Horus Rising and it�s the first item in my recommended reading order. It�s about what happened when the Imperium first ran into Basilio Fo.

quote:

'I have been monitoring your activity since you arrived in this zone twenty months ago,' he said. 'Through my listening stations and watch-networks, I have observed your dealings with local cultures. Your message. Your offer of embrace. I knew you would knock on my door before long.'

And you were prepared,' said Horus. 'Afraid, for you thought we would judge you as poorly as the people of Terra once did.'

Fo frowned. 'No, you are mistaken,' he replied. 'You think I left Terra because I was driven out? Shunned? Demonised? No, no. All artists and innovators are misunderstood.'

'Then why?'

'Because I saw the start of his rise,' said Fo. 'Even then, early days, but I could see what he would become. Your father, I mean. I knew what future awaited a man who dreamed the dreams he did. Though it took decades or centuries or longer, I knew he would not be denied. I wanted no part of that. I wanted to be as far away as possible.'

'Why?' asked Horus.

'His dream is unthinkable, yet he has the power to make it real. I see he has begun to now. You� you have reached the stars.'

'Yes, bearing his message. His hope to�'

'Hope?' Fo shook his head sadly. 'Yes. Naturally, he would tell his children that. He always made things sound so optimistic. A glorious and endless future. But, of course, you wouldn't understand.'

'I don't,' said Horus, rising. 'You are a maker of abominations. A creator of the most obscene things I have ever beheld. I presume a mind as transgressive as yours would see only horror in the splendour of his ambition. And fear the justice he would mete upon you for your crimes against the human form.'

'Oh god, no!' cried Fo in surprise. He hesitated. 'Do they still speak of god on Terra? Do they still believe? I suppose not. They wouldn't have to now. Anyway, you're wrong. I don't fear his justice. You say I have made abominations? Look what he has made.'

'What do you mean?' asked Horus.

'I mean you. You and beings like you. You think I've made monsters? In my wildest deliriums I could not have designed monsters like you. I practise simple and ingenious arts of genetics and anatomy. I tinker and edit, to make puzzles and delights and curious wonders, things to make us think, and ponder the nature of our being and our place in the scheme of life.' He looked up at Horus.

'I do not make things that will burn the galaxy down. I do not make things that will doom our species and lead it into an endless frenzy of war. You are the most abominable thing I have ever seen. Grotesque. Sickening. Misbegotten. I could not hope to kill you all, but to abort just one before it reached potential� well, that would have been some solace.'

Fo got up, and brushed down his clothes. 'I'd like to die now,' he said. 'I don't want to live in a cosmos where things like you are loose.'

I think this would have been a reasonable place to end the story, but it goes on a bit and I think the next part really elevates it and underlines the message:

quote:

'What will you do?' asked Hastur Sejanus.

'We'll purge this place. Let nothing of Fo's work remain. And quickly, Hastur. The fleet awaits.'

'Will you execute him as he asks?'

Horus shook his head. 'For his crimes against the species, I should, I suppose,' he replied. 'But I will place him on a ship and bring him to meet our father. Fo is mad, but I dearly wish he could glimpse the honest and whole truth once before his life ends.' 'You want his compliance?'

'His ideas are so wrong, Hastur. This is an enlightened age and we are the messengers of hope. A hope that our kind has lacked through all the ages past until this era. I want this man to know his error, and appreciate the truth. It's the least I can do for him.'

'You are too merciful,' said Sejanus.

'If that is my only flaw, I am glad of it,' said Horus. 'His notions unsettled me. How could any man misunderstand the glory of our enterprise so completely? How could any man fear the likes of me?'

Years later, long after the Triumph of Ullanor, and the great bloodshed of the Heresy, and the darkness of the Fall that ended it, men forgot the hope they had once shared. On ancient Terra, in those final days of the Fall, Basilio Fo heard the thunder approaching through the stout walls of his oubliette cell in the depths of the Imperial Palace. And, despite the madness that had by then consumed him, he knew he had been right, all along, not to submit to hope.

# ? Aug 27, 2023 15:48

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

This is the same guy who terrorized Terra during the Age of Strife with a mixture of daemonic pacts, killer cyborgs, and genomic plagues, then fled when he was defeated and turned a human colony into a death world filled with nightmarish science projects. Maybe not the most reliable narrator.

# ? Aug 27, 2023 16:45

Demiurge4: Aug 10, 2011

Guy took one look at Horus and his mind screamed "THE ANATHEMA!"

# ? Aug 27, 2023 16:56

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

The detail that even way before the Heresy Imperial forces could not shut up about 'heresy' and 'sacrilege' is quite a tell.

Some authors appreciate what it means, but i do think others include it just because it's 40k and you -need- to have people shouting about purging the heretics.

# ? Aug 27, 2023 17:16

Pron on VHS: Nov 14, 2005; Blood Clots
Sweat Dries
Bones Heal
Suck it Up and Keep Wrestling

Sephyr posted:

The detail that even way before the Heresy Imperial forces could not shut up about 'heresy' and 'sacrilege' is quite a tell.

Some authors appreciate what it means, but i do think others include it just because it's 40k and you -need- to have people shouting about purging the heretics.

Yes I thought about that often during some books, using heresy instead of rebellion or coup is a big tell

# ? Aug 27, 2023 17:45

Cooked Auto: Aug 4, 2007; If you will not serve in combat, you will serve on the firing line!

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# ? Aug 27, 2023 18:16

Pantaloon Pontiff: Jun 25, 2023

Pron on VHS posted:

Yes I thought about that often during some books, using heresy instead of rebellion or coup is a big tell

In the pre-HH-series fluff, it wasn't clear if the 'Heresy' label was what they called it at the time or what the Imperium called it in histories after becoming what it is now. Using Heresy at the time does say a lot about how they felt about the Emperor, even if they talked a lot about Imperial Truth and the death of all gods.

# ? Aug 27, 2023 18:30

Warden: Jan 16, 2020

Kaal posted:

This is the same guy who terrorized Terra during the Age of Strife with a mixture of daemonic pacts, killer cyborgs, and genomic plagues, then fled when he was defeated and turned a human colony into a death world filled with nightmarish science projects. Maybe not the most reliable narrator.

Point of order, Fo never had anything to do with daemons. It wasn't his style. The rest is correct tho. Just as correct as Fo ended up being about Horus.

Pantaloon Pontiff posted:

In the pre-HH-series fluff, it wasn't clear if the 'Heresy' label was what they called it at the time or what the Imperium called it in histories after becoming what it is now. Using Heresy at the time does say a lot about how they felt about the Emperor, even if they talked a lot about Imperial Truth and the death of all gods.

They actually do not use the word "heresy" at the beginning of it. I think it is Guilliman in Unremembered Empire who coins the term in a public meeting, because to him, what has transpired has gone way beyond rebellion, and he thinks all of the traitors got daemons whispering lies and malevolent truths in their ears.

# ? Aug 27, 2023 18:58

DAD LOST MY IPOD: Feb 3, 2012; Fats Dominar is on the case

yeah fo was an absolute psycho but at least he had class. he didn�t want to rule the galaxy or even humanity, he just wanted to make resident evil monsters and set them loose on people for fun.

# ? Aug 27, 2023 19:13

S.J.: May 19, 2008; Just who the hell do you think we are?

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

yeah fo was an absolute psycho but at least he had class. he didn�t want to rule the galaxy or even humanity, he just wanted to make resident evil monsters and set them loose on people for fun.

we don't deserve this kind of antagonist, truly

# ? Aug 27, 2023 19:21

SardonicTyrant: Feb 26, 2016; BTICH IM A NEWT
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Cleaning out his fetish horror collection, debates tossing Human Centipede or not before deciding it's just too vanilla nowadays.

# ? Aug 27, 2023 20:07

Shroud: May 11, 2009

Fo feels like the Warhammer embodiment of "the worst person you know makes a good point".

# ? Aug 27, 2023 22:09

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

Shroud posted:

Fo feels like the Warhammer embodiment of "the worst person you know makes a good point".

I like him especially because he manages to short out the Custodes' brains with basic "Well, are those orders reeeally from the Emperor? How would you know? These guys look like fallible, potentially traitorous humans to me" logic.

# ? Aug 27, 2023 23:50

DAD LOST MY IPOD: Feb 3, 2012; Fats Dominar is on the case

�According to this, you�re in excess of five thousand years old,� said Keeler. �That must be a mistake, surely? Active on Terra before the fall of Old Night?�
Fo shrugged.
�What can I say?� he asked. �I look after myself and exercise regularly.�
�That�s nonsense,� said Keeler.

# ? Aug 28, 2023 01:19

habeasdorkus: Nov 3, 2013; Royalty is a continuous shitposting motion.

He's a fun character and I'm sure the Big E would be very amused and not at all owned if he somehow survives the Siege and ends up working with Cawl on the Primaris project.

# ? Aug 28, 2023 02:00

Angry Salami: Jul 27, 2013; Don't trust the skull.

Telsa Cola posted:

Also a large part of the xenophobia present in 30-40k is implied to be a result of a poo poo ton of alien races dogpiling humanity when everything started to go to poo poo.

I mean, that's what the Imperium says happened, but I'm a little skeptical of Fascist regimes claiming they were stabbed in the back...

# ? Aug 28, 2023 04:46

Dog_Meat: May 19, 2013

MariusLecter posted:

There was also the other book a world eater tells Angron about seeing the emperor fight, "With each blow he didn't just kill them, he RUINED them." Think he described the emperor coming down like a shooting star or a comet and making a massive crater on landing among enemies also.

MoM still has the best build up and payoff of the Emperor fighting. The build up to

Ra was at the Emperor�s right side, spear whirling, lashing out to punch through the amorphous bodies of flailing blue creatures that wailed through their many mouths. Sweat baked his face inside his helm. The blood in his muscles was heavier than liquid lead.

�Orders, sire?�

The Emperor raised His sword in a two-handed grip. As His knuckles tightened, the geography of circuitry ignited along the blade�s length, spitting electrical fire and wreathing the sword�s length in flame.

He didn�t speak. He didn�t look at any of His warriors. The sword came down. The webway caught fire.

This is an Emperor who has been trapped on the throne fighting literal chaos gods for weeks, mentally sparring with Horus and generally holding reality together getting up, barely getting chance to stretch his legs and just ruining everyone's poo poo.

Which begs the question - how did this godlike avatar of destruction get overwhelmed on Ulanor to the point where Horus saved his life? Part of his cunning plan to bond with Horus? More committed to the physical warrior form aspect of himself at the time? The Orky Boyz charging up through the raw power of having the bestest time of their lives?

# ? Aug 28, 2023 09:11

habeasdorkus: Nov 3, 2013; Royalty is a continuous shitposting motion.

Angry Salami posted:

I mean, that's what the Imperium says happened, but I'm a little skeptical of Fascist regimes claiming they were stabbed in the back...

Very good point.

Dog_Meat posted:

Which begs the question - how did this godlike avatar of destruction get overwhelmed on Ulanor to the point where Horus saved his life? Part of his cunning plan to bond with Horus? More committed to the physical warrior form aspect of himself at the time? The Orky Boyz charging up through the raw power of having the bestest time of their lives?

Orkz is best. Orkz is made for fightin' and winnin'.

# ? Aug 28, 2023 12:44

Sextro: Aug 23, 2014

Dog_Meat posted:

Which begs the question - how did this godlike avatar of destruction get overwhelmed on Ulanor to the point where Horus saved his life? Part of his cunning plan to bond with Horus? More committed to the physical warrior form aspect of himself at the time? The Orky Boyz charging up through the raw power of having the bestest time of their lives?

He's The Anathema, so he's at his best against daemons with no physicality. Orks are all about physicality so he's down to just regular fightin' or in other words.

habeasdorkus posted:

Orkz is best. Orkz is made for fightin' and winnin'.

# ? Aug 28, 2023 13:11

OPAONI: Jul 23, 2021

Sextro posted:

He's The Anathema, so he's at his best against daemons with no physicality. Orks are all about physicality so he's down to just regular fightin' or in other words.

Also Gork and Mork could kick his rear end.

# ? Aug 28, 2023 13:58

Azubah: Jun 5, 2007

Mork and Gork could too.

# ? Aug 28, 2023 14:07

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

the emperor's big flaw isn't exactly hidden, it's literally said out loud by I think abaddon in horus rising. he does not understand brotherhood, at all. he doesn't understand the human need for connection to other humans. he is so far above humanity that he can only see it as something to be ruled. it makes him a dictator, but it's sad, too - he's totally isolated by his perspective. he doesn't make allowances for human flaws and frailties because he doesn't have any, and he doesn't understand either the need for or the power of human connection/brotherhood/sisterhood, and both of these blind spots repeatedly ruin his plans.

edit: i'm reminded of something d. vincent baker said about playing god as an npc in his excellent rpg kill puppies for satan. "a sense of humor is how humans deal with being weak, wrong, or stupid, so he doesn't have one."

i think its worse then that because He likes them on paper, its why he let the primarchs be people to a degree but he doesnt actually know how to deal with that poo poo and doesnt give a gently caress in cases with a bunch of them. he gives the wooden boy life and a mind and soul but he still makes a bunch of them shovel poo poo or doesnt give a gently caress when they are clearly broken.

# ? Aug 28, 2023 16:44

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

So my brother told me that Warhammer Plus has been banned in Canada. Any valid reason for this or is it another case of CanCon rules being abused out of a misguided attempt to preserve our cultural artistic identity of being NotAmerica.

# ? Aug 30, 2023 18:15

Bohemian Nights: Jul 14, 2006; When I wake up,
I look into the mirror
I can see a clearer, vision
I should start living today; Clapping Larry

Arc Hammer posted:

So my brother told me that Warhammer Plus has been banned in Canada. Any valid reason for this or is it another case of CanCon rules being abused out of a misguided attempt to preserve our cultural artistic identity of being NotAmerica.

Supposedly some quebec thing according to reddit

"Bill 96 recently became law in Quebec, and it reinforces many laws in the province, including the Charter of the French Language. One of the new articles in the law states that businesses must provide services, services, and products in french."

# ? Aug 30, 2023 18:30

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# ? May 10, 2024 21:55

Kharn_The_Betrayer: Nov 15, 2013; Fun Shoe

Bohemian Nights posted:

Supposedly some quebec thing according to reddit

"Bill 96 recently became law in Quebec, and it reinforces many laws in the province, including the Charter of the French Language. One of the new articles in the law states that businesses must provide services, services, and products in french."

Yeah so no way for us to get anything from Black library legally either... guess its time to sail the seven seas.

# ? Aug 30, 2023 19:51

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