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I didn't play in 9th but an argument I heard made in the thread, and I'm sympathetic to it theoretically regardless of how true it was or wasn't in 9th, was that too much of the game was "invisible". The current state of play then was so heavily impacted by stratagems, rather than unit and unit placement, that a lot of the game was taking place outside of the game boards physical reality, which is a problem in a miniatures game. If I spent all this time hobbying up an army, by god I want it to be the vast majority of the focus of play. Whether or not it was true then, and whether or not it'll be true later in 10th, I don't know, but it's not something I'd personally want. Am I exaggerating how big of a problem it was?
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Aug 28, 2023 16:56
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Jack B Nimble posted:I didn't play in 9th but an argument I heard made in the thread, and I'm sympathetic to it theoretically regardless of how true it was or wasn't in 9th, was that too much of the game was "invisible". The current state of play then was so heavily impacted by stratagems, rather than unit and unit placement, that a lot of the game was taking place outside of the game boards physical reality, which is a problem in a miniatures game. If I spent all this time hobbying up an army, by god I want it to be the vast majority of the focus of play. There was no hidden information in 9th, just like there isn't in 10th. The problem in 9th is that there were so many stratagems and so much wargear and so many upgrades that it was extremely hard to get a full understanding of the game state unless you were someone who knows the ins and outs of how the opposing faction functions, which isn't the case unless you are a extremely advanced player or have fought your opponent multiple times before. There are four to six pages of stratagems in each codex in 9th. All of them are irrelevant garbage, except a couple, which will absolutely gently caress you over if you don't plan around them. In 10th, there are six stratagems, and all of them are relevant, more or less. This problem still exists in 10th, but has been drastically cut down.
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Aug 28, 2023 16:59
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Geisladisk posted:
It kinda does if the other detachments are viable. I mean in 9e you could theoretically memorize the stratagems that nobody used but once you were familiar with your opponent’s army you only needed to know 6-8. Here, if you are unfamiliar with your opponent’s army you’re going to constantly forget which stratagems go into which detachment, especially if you play against more than one different detachment with any regularity. Once you are familiar with which stratagems go to which detachment you’ll only need to think about 6, but that was the case in 9e too.
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Aug 28, 2023 17:01
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:It kinda does if the other detachments are viable. I mean in 9e you could theoretically memorize the stratagems that nobody used but once you were familiar with your opponent’s army you only needed to know 6-8. Yes, but you know which 6 they are using at the start of the game. You can just spend a minute to read them before deployment. Sure, you might not perfectly remember them all game long, but the scale of the problem is vastly reduced from 9th.
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Aug 28, 2023 17:03
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It is probably worth waiting for the full release of the Tyranid and SM codex before we start making final judgements about 10th. That being said these books were written before launch so they won't address any balance issues, and if anything will likely exacerbate them. But then again, we need to wait and see. The leaks and previews do seem to indicate that the codex is more important to an army than the 8th to 9th edition change. This seems unfortunate, especially if they stick to a 3 year cycle for editions. As mentioned before Guard got hosed really bad last edition, codex and rules wise, and we can imagine they or another faction will get equally hosed this edition in a 3 year cycle.
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Aug 28, 2023 17:14
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10th is real hoot to play, I dunno. It's a social game, so if you play in a group you might be caught flat-footed once or twice by your friend with a strategem that you didn't consider ahead of time. You'll remember to ask about it during your eventual rematch! Who cares. If you're playing a tournament, you ask your opponent at the start of the game the classic game-breaking things like "what has advance and charge" and "what other nasty things are you going to do to me" etc, and if you're polite about it, your opponent will walk you through their list 10th is a lot easier than 9th so far, and I'm sure they're going to gently caress it up with the codexes, and then play in the margins, etc - it's a business and this is their model.
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Aug 28, 2023 17:24
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IncredibleIgloo posted:It is probably worth waiting for the full release of the Tyranid and SM codex before we start making final judgements about 10th. That being said these books were written before launch so they won't address any balance issues, and if anything will likely exacerbate them. But then again, we need to wait and see. The leaks and previews do seem to indicate that the codex is more important to an army than the 8th to 9th edition change. This seems unfortunate, especially if they stick to a 3 year cycle for editions. As mentioned before Guard got hosed really bad last edition, codex and rules wise, and we can imagine they or another faction will get equally hosed this edition in a 3 year cycle. Do they have a published/estimated order for when the codexes come out? Off a quick google, it looks like they showed a roadmap through spring 2024, but it's a pretty limited amount of armies. If they're rotating every 3 years for editions and invalidate other codexes, does that mean that in the previously posted example the imperial guards finally got their detailed stuff, then immediately weren't able to use it again?
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Aug 28, 2023 17:25
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I guess I meant less that the information was hidden and more that it was rules and effects that weren't well represented physically. An example I can summon up in a current game is how you can use "fire support" options as Guardsmen in Kill Team. That becomes a major component of your play but it's not represented by or tied to your miniatures. You just say "and here comes the fire support" and start rolling some dice, there's no mortar team tucked back some where doing it. I don't personally like that and I'd rather have the extra guardsman instead of the artillery even if it wasn't considered optimal.
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Aug 28, 2023 17:26
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Weird Pumpkin posted:Off a quick google, it looks like they showed a roadmap through spring 2024, but it's a pretty limited amount of armies. If they're rotating every 3 years for editions and invalidate other codexes, does that mean that in the previously posted example the imperial guards finally got their detailed stuff, then immediately weren't able to use it again? The 9th Astra Militarum codex came out in November in a special box last year then came out more widely in January I think, obviously places'd let you use the rules from when it came out first. Then yeah the 10th edition launch was June so they got about 6 months of using those rules unless they're playing with other people who wanna play 9th rules still of course, I'm sure that exists. thebardyspoon fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Aug 28, 2023 |
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Aug 28, 2023 17:33
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Weird Pumpkin posted:Do they have a published/estimated order for when the codexes come out? The late 9th codexes were invalidated pretty quickly after they came out. This isn't usually a huge problem, only 2nd->3rd, 7th->8th and 9th->10th edition changes have invalidated the codexes, usually they just carry over and keep functioning.
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Aug 28, 2023 17:33
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Weird Pumpkin posted:Do they have a published/estimated order for when the codexes come out? I play mostly guard so I can answer that; a large portion of their codex was invalidated with the switch to 10th just a few months after the release of their book. The sting from this is lessened in that their free rules were released at the start of 10th. Perhaps Guard is heavily impacted by the changes in 10th so they feel it more. Guard historically has had a lot of unique subfactions and armies that make up the guard with unique styles and whatnot, and that was removed with 10th, for all armies. The worrying part is that it appears from the Tyranid codex leaks that the codexes will introduce subfactions again, but call them detachments instead, but the point is roughly the same; using the same models but having army wide rules that modify how they play. Perhaps encouraging a different selection of models than normal. So it stands to reason that the books released late in 9th edition are likely to also be released late in 10th edition, which will be frustrating for Guard players.
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Aug 28, 2023 17:38
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thebardyspoon posted:The 9th Astra Militarum codex came out in November in a special box last year then came out more widely in January I think, obviously places'd let you use the rules from when it came out first I think. Then yeah the 10th edition launch was June so they got about 6 months of using those rules. ro5s posted:The late 9th codexes were invalidated pretty quickly after they came out. This isn't usually a huge problem, only 2nd->3rd, 7th->8th and 9th->10th edition changes have invalidated the codexes, usually they just carry over and keep functioning. Ah gotcha, that's good to know. So otherwise it sucks that you get it so late, but you can keep using the same codex for awhile afterwards which is nice. Man the competitive warhammer subreddit is pretty much on fire with I guess the Aeldar army being insanely better than anything else? Is that due to just a fundamental design thing? Or is it just a numbers thing?
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Aug 28, 2023 17:38
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IncredibleIgloo posted:I play mostly guard so I can answer that; a large portion of their codex was invalidated with the switch to 10th just a few months after the release of their book. The sting from this is lessened in that their free rules were released at the start of 10th. Perhaps Guard is heavily impacted by the changes in 10th so they feel it more. Guard historically has had a lot of unique subfactions and armies that make up the guard with unique styles and whatnot, and that was removed with 10th, for all armies. The worrying part is that it appears from the Tyranid codex leaks that the codexes will introduce subfactions again, but call them detachments instead, but the point is roughly the same; using the same models but having army wide rules that modify how they play. Perhaps encouraging a different selection of models than normal. So it stands to reason that the books released late in 9th edition are likely to also be released late in 10th edition, which will be frustrating for Guard players. yeah, exactly
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Aug 28, 2023 17:40
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I would guess that the codices will roll out quicker this edition just since there won't be quite as much issue with shipping globally, that'd be the hope at least?
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Aug 28, 2023 17:40
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If printing and shipping issues are the reason why the codices have staggered releases, I wish GW would rocket into the 21st century and just not tie rules to physical things
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Aug 28, 2023 17:43
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IncredibleIgloo posted:I play mostly guard so I can answer that; a large portion of their codex was invalidated with the switch to 10th just a few months after the release of their book. The sting from this is lessened in that their free rules were released at the start of 10th. Perhaps Guard is heavily impacted by the changes in 10th so they feel it more. Guard historically has had a lot of unique subfactions and armies that make up the guard with unique styles and whatnot, and that was removed with 10th, for all armies. The worrying part is that it appears from the Tyranid codex leaks that the codexes will introduce subfactions again, but call them detachments instead, but the point is roughly the same; using the same models but having army wide rules that modify how they play. Perhaps encouraging a different selection of models than normal. So it stands to reason that the books released late in 9th edition are likely to also be released late in 10th edition, which will be frustrating for Guard players. Having bought into Guard at the very tail end of 9th I really feel this. At least I didn't have to wait a whole edition for a codex only to have it immediately invalidated, still kinda sucks to have the codex immediately be useless to me. I hope the wait for the next one isn't too long. I do prefer the physical copy, I know digital is way better technically, but I just don't like being at the mercy of the internet. I maintained a DVD/blueray collection all through the golden age of netflix despite it seeming dumb, but now that digital content is hard to acess again, and their are a billion $15 per month subscriptions locking it all up and I love to just be able to grab something off the shelf and watch it. I feel the same about books. Virtual Russian fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Aug 28, 2023 |
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Aug 28, 2023 17:46
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Weird Pumpkin posted:Ah gotcha, that's good to know. So otherwise it sucks that you get it so late, but you can keep using the same codex for awhile afterwards which is nice. Games Workshop has historically struggle with balance issues, likely due to some fault of theirs but also compounded by the sheer number of units and modifiers in the game making things more complex. I heard that they used to have a beta test group that would try out the new rules but they stopped that due to leaks. So that exacerbated the balance problems. Eldar have historically been high performing, but an issue with 10th edition is that some of their abilities are very overpowered. In fact one of the first erratas that was released toned down one of their signature abilities, but that just brought the power level down from God-like to Really Good. Unfortunately it seems to even a casual player that this was completely unbalanced so it brings into question how GW attempted to balance 10th edition. Perhaps they had different team members that had limited interaction design some armies, but not others. 10th edition has seen some armies become very underwhelming, especially Admech and Death Guard. That being said, Admech was kind of a rollercoaster for the last edition, and Death Guard have been on a steady decline since they were the featured enemy faction in the 8th edition starter box. Sometimes the competitive scene numbers can be slightly skewed by high skill players chasing the meta and running a certain army more. For example, right now with Eldar having an advantage many high skill players are playing that army, which leads to their win rate being very high due to two factors, the balance and a potential miss-match in skill level between the average Eldar player and average opponent. Sometimes the corrections for this introduced by GW align the tournament scene to be more fair but has a more profound impact on casual players of that army. 9th Edition Admech saw some changes to prevent a few OP strategies from dominating the tournament scene, but it had an overall negative impact to the standard Admech player that was not quite so focused.
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Aug 28, 2023 17:51
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The Deleter posted:I hope they double down on the no costs for wargear. I'm very happy with not having to loving nickle and dime 5 or 10 points on crisis suits over and over to try and hit the magic limit. +20 points for a shield drone get out of here On the other hand, without the balancing tool of points values there's only one configuration that matters, the dataslates for your Crisis Suits may as well just say they come with triple ions, shield generators and shield drones, and every other option be erased from the options list.
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Aug 28, 2023 17:55
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Kitchner posted:... Each detachment's 6 strats are on one card so 6 covers the whole thing. Though considering they can put a detachment on 2 of those big cards, I'm thinking there might possibly be some White Dwarf detachments down the line.
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Aug 28, 2023 17:59
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Weird Pumpkin posted:Ah gotcha, that's good to know. So otherwise it sucks that you get it so late, but you can keep using the same codex for awhile afterwards which is nice. It’s both. Eldar are both dramatically undercosted relative to their efficiency and also their core mechanic fundamentally breaks one of the balancing principles of this game, the variance of attacks, in a way that lets them mathematically Just Kill You regardless of counterplay.
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Aug 28, 2023 17:59
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Kitchner posted:I played in competitive leagues and tournaments all the way through 9th, I probably played more competitive warhammer than the majority of people who post in this thread. I've played warhammer 40K for about 15 years. Good for you, but guess how useful that is when you haven't even touched secondaries and missions to understand the changes. Not to mention how the game handles tougher targets like vehicles/monsters. My group has someone who last played mostly from 3rd to 7th, and guess how much that helps him. (Hint: he's got one of the worst records in the group.) Basically everyone I've seen actually playing 10th after 9th has agreed that the base is much simpler and cleaner. As Thousand Sons, god I don't miss grinding things to a halt to manage all my buffs and psychics, which also required managing closest, and also managing distance, order, and Cabal to play around denies. The one GK game I played in 9th was incredibly amusing but also insanely frustrating and took way too long. I don't think anyone will disagree that there are some major balance issues in certain points, but the game is absolutely way better for anyone who doesn't spend their life in the competitive reeds. Weird Pumpkin posted:Man the competitive warhammer subreddit is pretty much on fire with I guess the Aeldar army being insanely better than anything else? Is that due to just a fundamental design thing? Or is it just a numbers thing? One big thing is that they have the strat Phantasm, which is a major factor in meaning they control how things engage...after they've had the chance to move. I've seen images of people having to completely surround a unit in order to charge it, for instance. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Aug 28, 2023 |
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Aug 28, 2023 18:07
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:It’s both. Eldar are both dramatically undercosted relative to their efficiency and also their core mechanic fundamentally breaks one of the balancing principles of this game, the variance of attacks, in a way that lets them mathematically Just Kill You regardless of counterplay. Why dont they just point modify the entire group. Take the bottom tier armies and just give them a percentage increase in points and see how that shakes out. Doesnt require a point change in a hard book either. So Eldar take 2000pts and the silly dwarves take 2200 points. Still suck? Increase until the win rates are nearly 50/50.
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Aug 28, 2023 18:08
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Crab Dad posted:Why dont they just point modify the entire group. That is a bad idea.
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Aug 28, 2023 18:08
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Spanish Manlove posted:If printing and shipping issues are the reason why the codices have staggered releases, I wish GW would rocket into the 21st century and just not tie rules to physical things Experimentation, innovation and invention are considered tantamount to heresy.
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Aug 28, 2023 18:09
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Like half the problem with eldar is that they gave a faction that can just roll a 6 any time they want tons of high damage weapons with Devastating Wounds. Fate Dice as it stands right now isn't super impactful since it is only 1/phase - Except if you use it to roll a 6 to wound on something like a D-Cannon.
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Aug 28, 2023 18:09
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Spanish Manlove posted:That is a bad idea. yeah because whatever they are doing is obvisouly been working for the last 30 years.
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Aug 28, 2023 18:10
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Geisladisk posted:Like half the problem with eldar is that they gave a faction that can just roll a 6 any time they want tons of high damage weapons with Devastating Wounds. Can't remember if I posted about this in the last thread or not but in my one 10th edition game played so far, I used a fate 6 to guarantee The Wailing Doom proc'd Sustained Hits D3 which assuming you don't then roll total trash hits like a truck into a Knight  I don't own any D-Cannons or Wraithknights but yeah Eldar are still strong. I love the thematic Fate Dice setup but some sort of work definitely needs to be done to either bring other armies up to the same strength level or bring Eldar down, I would rather the levels go up to match it but perhaps that'd be counter to the 10th philosophy of "less lethal" that I believe I saw GW posting about back during the release time.
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Aug 28, 2023 18:21
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I do kind of wish they’d just declare we’re in indexhammer and it doesn’t really matter, just take wild swings at the balance every few weeks to see what works.
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Aug 28, 2023 18:22
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As a total outsider to the game, it certainly seems like one of the big reasons that GW is having such serious balance issues is that they jettisoned the unit slots and weapon costs which had previously been critical balancing features. By removing those elements, they gave themselves a massive and perhaps impossible job of balancing everything based purely on a single number that is supposed to be equally valuable across all factions and detachments.
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Aug 28, 2023 18:27
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Kaal posted:As a total outsider to the game, it certainly seems like one of the big reasons that GW is having such serious balance issues is that they jettisoned the unit slots and weapon costs which had previously been critical balancing features. By removing those elements, they gave themselves a massive and perhaps impossible job of balancing everything based purely on a single number that is supposed to be equally valuable across all factions and detachments. You're not wrong, from the perspective of a friend who plays Guard. They're basically forced into all sponsons, all the time, which makes things a lot harder to control for them.
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Aug 28, 2023 18:36
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hoiyes posted:Or just letting Retributors have a squad size of ten so you could actually synergise with the detachment rule and shoot back strat. Rather than just being wiped. It's frustrating how many options could have been on the table that would be thematic and fitting. That's a wish off a monkey's paw. They'd end up with a bloated cost and likely only basic bolter sisters for the last 5 models, like how it is with dominions.
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Aug 28, 2023 18:48
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Kaal posted:As a total outsider to the game, it certainly seems like one of the big reasons that GW is having such serious balance issues is that they jettisoned the unit slots and weapon costs which had previously been critical balancing features. By removing those elements, they gave themselves a massive and perhaps impossible job of balancing everything based purely on a single number that is supposed to be equally valuable across all factions and detachments. That's not it at all, it's not like the thing that is making Eldar overpowered is that now they don't have to pay 15 points or whatever to take a Bright Lance or that they don't have to spend like 150 points on troops. Likewise the biggest winner from no points wargear, Imperial Guard and their sponsons, is not doing too hot right now. No points for wargear may be a bad idea for other reasons, but it isn't the cause of the imbalance. The reason balance is poor right now is extremely simple. We went from having a mature ruleset where balance had been tweaked for three years and was in a pretty good place, to rewriting each of the 25 factions and thousands of units in this game in one fell swoop with inadequate playtesting.
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Aug 28, 2023 19:31
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Geisladisk posted:Yes, but you know which 6 they are using at the start of the game. You can just spend a minute to read them before deployment. This is very important to note! It's not 36 different strategems it's 6 packages of strats. Strats being thematically and mechanically linked to the theme of the detachment while mostly being exclusive together (you can probably assume there'll be "generic" strats that cross over to other detachments like Armour of Contempt, which actually makes burden of knowledge even less) makes them significantly easier to remember than if it was say, pick 6 of the 36. Cooked Auto posted:https://bloodknife.com/improving-strategic-outcomes-for-the-black-crusade-xiv/ My friend wrote this and it owns
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Aug 28, 2023 20:05
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Eej posted:My friend wrote this and it owns Small world.  I even found the site via another essay linked in another thread I read.
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Aug 28, 2023 20:07
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Kaal posted:As a total outsider to the game, it certainly seems like one of the big reasons that GW is having such serious balance issues is that they jettisoned the unit slots and weapon costs which had previously been critical balancing features. By removing those elements, they gave themselves a massive and perhaps impossible job of balancing everything based purely on a single number that is supposed to be equally valuable across all factions and detachments. While the force org chart and wargear costs were useful balancing tools they also absolutely were not critical and had become less and less relevant as time has gone on. The force org has trivial to ignore and, IME, most people would take units naked except for one or two "must take" options.
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Aug 28, 2023 20:41
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Eej posted:This is very important to note! It's not 36 different strategems it's 6 packages of strats. Strats being thematically and mechanically linked to the theme of the detachment while mostly being exclusive together (you can probably assume there'll be "generic" strats that cross over to other detachments like Armour of Contempt, which actually makes burden of knowledge even less) makes them significantly easier to remember than if it was say, pick 6 of the 36. I absolutely don't understand how people are arguing that detachments having 6 strats is somehow worse, it is so much better than 90% of strats being worthless trash
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Aug 28, 2023 20:44
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Spanish Manlove posted:If printing and shipping issues are the reason why the codices have staggered releases, I wish GW would rocket into the 21st century and just not tie rules to physical things It's not just the printed books themselves, there's a whole marketing & logistics chain tied into those staggered releases: New rules cause a spike in demand for old models too, so they have to stock not just new stuff but also older kits. Older models may get released in new packaging, or sold in a different way. Pushing one faction at a time can encourage players to start a new army. Often there are new themed boxed sets / Combat Patrol sets planned to help with that. Coordinated tie-in products get released at the same time, like dice or Black Library books Eej posted:This is very important to note! It's not 36 different strategems it's 6 packages of strats. Strats being thematically and mechanically linked to the theme of the detachment while mostly being exclusive together (you can probably assume there'll be "generic" strats that cross over to other detachments like Armour of Contempt, which actually makes burden of knowledge even less) makes them significantly easier to remember than if it was say, pick 6 of the 36. Yeah as the new detachments get revealed there's going to be a lot of really obvious interactions that are more intuitive than anything in 9th. Like right now the Tyranid invasion fleet gives an armywide adaptation for the full game, plus a strat to pick a different adaptation for specific units each turn. Once you learn that a Tyranid Synapse detachment gives out once-per-game bonuses in synapse range, it won't be surprising if the related stratagems then increase synapse range or allow those bonuses to happen more than once.
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Aug 28, 2023 20:56
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4 of the 6 Cult of Magic strategems for Thousand Sons revolve around either turning your regular bolters into psychic guns or buffing your psychic guns and the detachment rule is "pick one of three keywords to slap onto your psychic guns this turn". I don't think it's that hard to remember that the psychic gun detachment gets all the psychic gun strats and you can not worry about remembering them for other future Thousand Son detachments.
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Aug 28, 2023 21:00
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I'm curious to see just how wild things are going to get with the different detachments. Could we, as one example, see units with different points costs, statlines, or wargear options, depending on the detachment being used?
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Aug 28, 2023 21:15
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Roller Coast Guard posted:I'm curious to see just how wild things are going to get with the different detachments. Could we, yes. Will we, no. That's my betting slip at bovada anyway.
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Aug 28, 2023 21:27
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