Team Fortress 2 - A large update the size of a small update

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Countblanc: Apr 20, 2005; _{Help a hero out!}

probably heavy if all the heavy players switched to soldier

# ? Aug 28, 2023 05:13

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# ? May 29, 2024 22:31

drrockso20: May 6, 2013; Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

CodfishCartographer posted:

I would say Medic is probably the single class that would have the most impact if removed from the game, but I wonder which would have the least impact? Maybe scout? Soldier, demo, spy, and heavy are important for breaking up defensive lines; engineer (and heavy) are important for establishing a defense; medic is always important for pushes: Pyro is important for spy checking, protecting sentries, and ambushing. Sniper, spy, and scout fill similar roles of "pick off important targets" - but spy brings counter-sentry utility, and sniper does it from a safer position. Scout obviously provides better capping power, but with the community's shift toward payload that's a fair bit less important nowadays.

Had a idea ages ago to try and figure this out by having 8 different teams of 8 players, each team having 8 of the 9 classes with one missing(not doing a No Medic team because that one would obviously be at the bottom) and have them compete in a set amount of matches with each possible matchup and figure out the rankings, I imagine the No Spy team would probably do the best while the No Demo and No Soldier teams would be at the bottom

# ? Aug 28, 2023 06:03

Vizuyos: Jun 17, 2020; Thank U for reading

If you hated it...
FUCK U and never come back

ninjewtsu posted:

sure but i feel like the position "the game is perfectly playable balance-wise without sniper" is a solid one, and the video is a good demonstration of that. it at least shows that the assumption that he has some vital place in the game's ecosystem doesn't play out on a cursory investigation and therefore is in fact an assumption, for which there is equally no real evidence in support of. i don't see any reason to believe that the sniper is in some way "necessary" to team fortress 2 or that his removal would be to the detriment of other players.

you can play around him, you can find maps and conditions where he isn't as frustrating to play against, and sure, you can argue that he's "fair" (sure why not, i don't have a horse in that race). but if you aren't playing as him he doesn't really add any positive or fun interactions* to the game, just an obnoxious and frustrating pain point that the game really doesn't need.

*bad snipers add a lot of fun interactions to the game, because helpless victims can be funny to mess with, but i can't say i find this aspect to be a terribly good selling point for the class

the game is also perfectly playable balance-wise without pyro or spy, and probably heavy as well

the only classes that are really vital to the way the game is played are soldier/demoman, engineer, and medic. all the other classes are just various options for interfering with one of those four or protecting one of those four

# ? Aug 28, 2023 14:34

Gwyneth Palpate: Jun 7, 2010; Do you want your breadcrumbs highlighted?

~SMcD

Vizuyos posted:

the game is also perfectly playable balance-wise without pyro or spy, and probably heavy as well

the only classes that are really vital to the way the game is played are soldier/demoman, engineer, and medic. all the other classes are just various options for interfering with one of those four or protecting one of those four

gonna wish you had a heavy or pyro when the engineer starts spamming the Short Circuit off the cart

# ? Aug 28, 2023 14:39

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

Gwyneth Palpate posted:

gonna wish you had a heavy or pyro when the engineer starts spamming the Short Circuit off the cart

All of the classes are important for dealing with specific tactics, though I think Vizuyos is right that the core TF2 dynamic can be found within the medic / engineer / soldier / demo interaction. Snipers and Spies are critical for expanding gameplay beyond heavy / medic combos, in particular.

# ? Aug 28, 2023 14:51

Jack B Nimble: Dec 25, 2007; Soiled Meat

I'd say Demo man and Soldier are both the most disposable just because, as was mentioned earlier, they're the two most similar classes: they're both high HP, low speed, projectile based explosive classes. You might prefer to be a demo man when tackling a nest or prefer to be a soldier when taking point in a push, but both could do either, and both overlap each other in a way no other two classes do.

I'm not saying they actually are disposable, their distinctions are meaningful, but they're the two that most approach it.

# ? Aug 28, 2023 15:13

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

Yeah that's certainly true. One could certainly envision a world where the Demo / Soldier distinction was a matter of weapon choice rather than class selection, unlike all the other classes. They play differently but are fundamentally similar. Maybe I should have written the above as medic, engineer, and soldier / demo interaction

# ? Aug 28, 2023 17:51

cock hero flux: Apr 17, 2011

Soldier is the one most easily removed because he is the generalist in the game of specialists. He's designed to be second-best at everything. This makes him extremely powerful, but also replaceable.

# ? Aug 28, 2023 17:58

Geight: Aug 7, 2010; Oh, All-Knowing One, behold me!

It should be noted that the Shounic video/experiment was a whopping 96 rounds of TF2 total, 48 with Sniper and 48 without, so it says a lot more about how badly we're teaching statistics these days than anything meaningful about the game's balance.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 04:28

scolbert: Jan 12, 2012

Geight posted:

It should be noted that the Shounic video/experiment was a whopping 96 rounds of TF2 total, 48 with Sniper and 48 without, so it says a lot more about how badly we're teaching statistics these days than anything meaningful about the game's balance.

Looks like we have a real genius here.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 05:30

ninjewtsu: Oct 9, 2012

that's like twice as many as i thought it did wow

# ? Aug 29, 2023 05:30

Xakura: Jan 10, 2019; A safety-conscious little mouse!

Geight posted:

It should be noted that the Shounic video/experiment was a whopping 96 rounds of TF2 total, 48 with Sniper and 48 without, so it says a lot more about how badly we're teaching statistics these days than anything meaningful about the game's balance.

Whats your statistics background? I can't remember enough from university to set up a confidence calculation, but you kinda sounds like one of the "you can't poll people with only a 1000 participants" people.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 10:50

khwarezm: Oct 26, 2010; Deal with it.

Xakura posted:

Whats your statistics background? I can't remember enough from university to set up a confidence calculation, but you kinda sounds like one of the "you can't poll people with only a 1000 participants" people.

Well, I'm not one of those fancy number-counting guys, but if they were to do this more seriously it would have to be a wide variety of game modes and types, his experiment was on 4 Payload maps and 2 KOTH maps, you'd need to include things like 5CP at minimum in addition to A/D maps like Gravel Pit and, sigh, Capture the Flag to get a better result. He didn't really specify how many people were involved so I assume it was a standard 12v12 game. You'd want to rerun the experiment with things like standard competitive 6v6 or Highlander 9v9.

Again, I don't know what kind of skill level his server was when doing this but as I said yesterday I think if its just a mostly regular pub server, or somewhat above average, you aren't going to get tremendously useful data, it tends to be better to determine such things in higher skill environments, and from what I see in Competitive Sniper has a very comfortable and defined role in that format and is probably the most commonly seen class after the standard four of Medic, Scout, Demo and Soldier.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 12:32

ninjewtsu: Oct 9, 2012

how competitive 6v6 plays out seems incredibly inconsequential to how the pub games i care about play out

the difference in utility of heavy immediately comes to mind as an example. testing 6v6 or highlander only matters if you care about 6v6 or highlander

# ? Aug 29, 2023 13:02

AtillatheBum: Oct 6, 2010; Justice ain't gonna dispense itself.

CodfishCartographer posted:

It's worth noting that the same youtuber did a different experiment where Sniper's sightlines were always visible, and it seemed to be mostly a global improvement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehlrUPrvFuk

This has to be the worst of both worlds. The only way to play sniper would be as a quick scope ambusher which is an insanely hard gameplay style but also perhaps even more frustrating to lose to. I imagine that if this was actually implemented for any length of time sniper would go extinct outside of people doing it specifically for the challenge. Probably better to just remove sniper outright.

The only class that is absolutely essential is medic, removing any other single class from both teams would not change much.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 19:34

cock hero flux: Apr 17, 2011

AtillatheBum posted:

The only class that is absolutely essential is medic, removing any other single class from both teams would not change much.

removing engineer would matter a lot for pubs

# ? Aug 29, 2023 19:55

AtillatheBum: Oct 6, 2010; Justice ain't gonna dispense itself.

Only on maps where teleporters are near essential for attackers. Everything else is probably a wash after an adjustment time. Defenders have to hold more forward chokes to give themselves more breathing room rather than relying on a single hard to bust nest/choke but the game wouldn't really change much.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 20:14

the holy poopacy: May 16, 2009; hey! check this out; Fun Shoe

Yeah, if you assume that most of the pub engineers would migrate to medic then holding power on defense would probably be about the same outside of points where teleporters are mandatory (which are designed to usually fall anyhow.) Even the issue of not having dispensers for holding ammo-hungry choke positions could be mitigated somewhat by medics making it easier to survive poking out to scavenge ammo.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 20:21

Jack B Nimble: Dec 25, 2007; Soiled Meat

I don't play engineer on defense because I want to be lazy, it's because being this engineer is fun as hell:

https://youtu.be/KnjOCkoLbCQ?si=tehYKeKLWp7vf8MC

# ? Aug 29, 2023 20:53

Roth: Jul 9, 2016

AtillatheBum posted:

This has to be the worst of both worlds. The only way to play sniper would be as a quick scope ambusher which is an insanely hard gameplay style but also perhaps even more frustrating to lose to. I imagine that if this was actually implemented for any length of time sniper would go extinct outside of people doing it specifically for the challenge. Probably better to just remove sniper outright.

That's what they want.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 20:57

Grapplejack: Nov 27, 2007

Shounics sniper test didn't really accommodate for anything, three days is too short for a meta to shake out. He'd need to run it for at least two months for things to get figured out even a little

# ? Aug 29, 2023 21:20

Araxxor: Oct 20, 2012; My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

The video said at the end it was a flawed experiment and that it would have to have been run for way longer for actually conclusive statements to be made.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 21:26

pokchu: Aug 22, 2007; D:

I play a lot of engineer, but I vastly prefer playing it on offense rather than defense.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 21:43

Gwyneth Palpate: Jun 7, 2010; Do you want your breadcrumbs highlighted?

~SMcD

pokchu posted:

I play a lot of engineer, but I vastly prefer playing it on offense rather than defense.

I like it on defense when everything is just barely not falling apart and even though you're keeping track of like 12 different things and the occasional building goes down, you juuuust manage to keep it from all falling apart for long enough for you to eureka effect back to the spawn room, grab the frontier justice, and cash in on like 7 crits you got from putting a level 1 in a weird place.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 21:45

Countblanc: Apr 20, 2005; _{Help a hero out!}

Defensive engineer is stressful because the second you die there's a real chance your entire defense will be owned by a bombing soldier or phlog pyro. On offense it's just Teleporters and Vibes.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 21:47

CJacobs: Apr 17, 2011; Reach for the moon!

Araxxor posted:

The video said at the end it was a flawed experiment and that it would have to have been run for way longer for actually conclusive statements to be made.

Yeah, I think it's totally fair to publish something with the disclaimer that one person just doesn't have time to run an experiment like that for the length of time needed- it'd need to be Valve.

And they did with Left 4 Dead 2! Remember Mutations? Those were loving cool.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 21:57

Gwyneth Palpate: Jun 7, 2010; Do you want your breadcrumbs highlighted?

~SMcD

While I'm thinking about it, have some engineer scripts.

code:

bind "MOUSE3" "destroy 2 0; build 2 0"
bind "4" "destroy 0 0; build 0 0"
bind "5" "destroy 1 0; build 1 0"
bind "6" "destroy 1 1; build 1 1"

bind r +teleport
alias +teleport slot3
alias -teleport Teleport_To_Spawn
alias Teleport_To_Spawn "eureka_teleport"
alias Teleport_To_Exit "eureka_teleport 1"

bind shift +toggleTeleport
alias +toggleTeleport "alias -teleport Teleport_To_Exit"
alias -toggleTeleport "alias -teleport Teleport_To_Spawn"

The first four lines are PDA bypass. One button to destroy an old building if it exists, skip the PDA entirely, and bring up the hologram/blueprint thingie for building a new thing. This script can take a lot of getting used to -- for many games, my muscle memory was trying to open the PDA with 4, which meant I blew my dispenser up a whole lot for no reason :v:

The best part about the PDA bypass script is that it works while you're dead. Spin the deathcam over to your teleporter exit. Is it getting camped? Blow it up. Is a rocket heading towards your 1 HP sentry? Blow it up before the rocket gets there. And so on. Good for if there's a spy running the Diamondback, too.

The other ones are Eureka Effect scripts. It puts teleportation on one key, automates pulling out your wrench if it's not already out, and eliminates the UI for it. Press the key to teleport to spawn, hold shift with the key to teleport to your tele exit. Using the script is a lot faster than using the Eureka Effect UI, because the UI insists that you have the wrench fully deployed and ready to swing, while the script doesn't care. With some practice, you can use it a lot faster than an unaided engineer.

What's fun about this is that it lets you attempt to teleport to your tele exit even if it isn't finished building. It won't take you there if it's not completely built, though, putting you back at spawn like normal. Normally, the UI prevents you from even trying if the exit isn't finished building. If you time the teleport right, you can appear right as it comes online. Saves you a few seconds here and there.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 21:58

CodfishCartographer: Feb 23, 2010; Gadus Maprocephalus; Pillbug

Offense engie is weird because the better you're doing your job and helping the team push, the more often you have to move / rebuild your poo poo, kinda gets annoying.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 21:59

khwarezm: Oct 26, 2010; Deal with it.

I don't play engie much but when I do I have to sneak a sentry nest and teleporter into the enemy's intelligence room.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 22:13

Countblanc: Apr 20, 2005; _{Help a hero out!}

what the hell is an "intelligence room"

# ? Aug 29, 2023 22:21

khwarezm: Oct 26, 2010; Deal with it.

Countblanc posted:

what the hell is an "intelligence room"

Fine, flag room, heaven forbid I play along with TF2's spin on CTF.

# ? Aug 29, 2023 22:25

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

Countblanc posted:

what the hell is an "intelligence room"

koth sawmill's control point room, where all the intelligence in the server is displayed

# ? Aug 29, 2023 22:28

CJacobs: Apr 17, 2011; Reach for the moon!

There are like 3 discussions going on at once here and catching up on it was kind of fun, felt a bit like

# ? Aug 29, 2023 22:38

Countblanc: Apr 20, 2005; _{Help a hero out!}

khwarezm posted:

Fine, flag room, heaven forbid I play along with TF2's spin on CTF.

No I meant i forgot ctf existed

# ? Aug 29, 2023 22:44

Blind Duke: Nov 8, 2013

2fort, the poster child for ctf maps, turning into the definitive hangout and vibes map has created a weird digital social environment and association with the game mode

# ? Aug 30, 2023 02:29

Jack B Nimble: Dec 25, 2007; Soiled Meat

It's really a bizarre map. It has so much cultural cachet in early TF2 as THE map, the de dust of tfc. But man in tf2 it just...sucks.

TFC is an odd beast, it was a formative game for me at the time, but the graphics were simple enough that I readily ascribed to it a level of sci fi militarism that is utterly removed from TF2.

# ? Aug 30, 2023 02:38

Ditocoaf: Jun 1, 2011

Did anyone ever try to reconfigure 2Fort into a 5CP map? I imagine it'd take a lot of changes to both make it good AND make the format change, but it'd be interesting to see the attempt.

# ? Aug 30, 2023 02:49

pokchu: Aug 22, 2007; D:

CodfishCartographer posted:

Offense engie is weird because the better you're doing your job and helping the team push, the more often you have to move / rebuild your poo poo, kinda gets annoying.

I like doing this more than I like feeling absolutely useless for the five minutes after losing a well-bult defensive nest, trying to scramble around and get new stuff set up that gets nearly instantly demolished.

# ? Aug 30, 2023 02:50

the holy poopacy: May 16, 2009; hey! check this out; Fun Shoe

Ditocoaf posted:

Did anyone ever try to reconfigure 2Fort into a 5CP map? I imagine it'd take a lot of changes to both make it good AND make the format change, but it'd be interesting to see the attempt.

Man that would take a hell of a lot of retooling. What parts of 2fort would even be worth saving?

# ? Aug 30, 2023 03:00

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# ? May 29, 2024 22:31

Ditocoaf: Jun 1, 2011

the holy poopacy posted:

Man that would take a hell of a lot of retooling. What parts of 2fort would even be worth saving?

It would probably be an exercise in trying to still evoke 2Fort's spaces just because they're iconic, in what is functionally a new map.

# ? Aug 30, 2023 03:06

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