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Data Graham posted:Good point, I think I remember while watching it that it seemed to be a lot more cynical about rich people being dumbasses or monsters than we were used to in the 80s. Back then we grew up with cartoons like Richie Rich and Beverly Hills Teens, where extreme wealth was just good old fashioned aspirational "kid's idea of heaven". Ducktales dropped into that milieu where every kid apparently yearned to wake up one morning and rather than opening a door to a world of fauns and talking beasts or getting a letter telling them they're a wizard, going to live in a mansion with infinite gadgets and toys and going on adventures with an eccentric uncle who has a literal swimming pool full of gold coins in a giant building at the top of the hill overlooking the town with a huge $ gilded on it. That all hits a bit different now, hence Mark Beaks etc. Tbf, Scrooge comics were always very concerned with how his wealth and personal drive/work ethic alienated him from others and led him to forgo human connections and reject feelings of empathy, and the nephew characters are a tenuous link back to the humanity his wealth drained from him. He’s named after Scrooge from A Christmas Carol for a reason, he’s not a purely aspirational figure
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Aug 30, 2023 18:02
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Granted that aspect basically got heavily downplayed in the 80s series which is what most people are going to remember, but again like how people see Gundam and miss the anti-war for "Cool Robots" people miss Scrooge's wealth doesn't make him happy and see his globe-hopping adventures. I'm reminded the first animated appearance of Scrooge wasn't Mickey's Christmas Carol but a short where Scrooge teaches the nephews the basics of banking, taxation, and investing and he just consider taxation as a part of doing business instead of something to avoid like you see with modern corps and ultrarich fucks.
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Aug 30, 2023 18:41
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Robindaybird posted:Yeah, it's kind of hard to buy into a Truly Altruistic Billionaire now given we have Uber-Libertarian Bezos making his employees piss in bottles, the monopolistic antics Gates was involved in, Jobs deliberately building up a cult-like branding around Apple and encouraging anti-consumer closed environments, Musk's entire existence. Also the whole Adventurer Archaeologist doesn't sit as well given the current talk about ownership, reparations, and who should be allowed to excavate if anything should be excavated at all. The Bruce Wayne one aggravates the gently caress out of me since it requires a complete and total lack of knowledge of the franchise. It's basically people who have never touched a comic or watched any of the series parroting talking points trying to sound smart.
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Aug 30, 2023 18:44
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doomrider7 posted:The Bruce Wayne one aggravates the gently caress out of me since it requires a complete and total lack of knowledge of the franchise. It's basically people who have never touched a comic or watched any of the series parroting talking points trying to sound smart. It really doesn't help the Arkham Asylum series and the Harley Quinn show (Which did a lot of character assassinations of heroes to make their villain protagonists more palatable) lean heavily into the Grimdork brutality aspect instead of that Wayne is heavily philanthropic and he does try to funnel the 'criminal out of desperation' mooks into legitimate jobs and only go after the mass criminals. It's okay to critique the representation and how it does things, but it just feels pointlessly edgy to go that route.
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Aug 30, 2023 18:48
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doomrider7 posted:The Bruce Wayne one aggravates the gently caress out of me since it requires a complete and total lack of knowledge of the franchise. It's basically people who have never touched a comic or watched any of the series parroting talking points trying to sound smart. Or watched the movies, since this popped up heavily when the Nolan movies came out...where that Bruce specifically did not beat up regular people because he purposefully lived as a poor person and realized what stealing to eat was like - and instead only goes after mob bosses and head corrupt people. Going back to animation, Dini/Timm Bats did more beating up of poor people than Nolan, but he still purposefully did a lot of one on one humanitarian stuff too.
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Aug 30, 2023 18:51
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The Bruce family philanthropy is almost always a core part of their dynamic unless the character assassination thing is the point. Nolan's introduction of Thomas was him taking his family on the public transit they developed for Gotham.
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Aug 30, 2023 18:55
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"It's OK for so and so to be a billionaire because they use their money for philanthropy" is textbook propaganda though. Real billionaires use this exact same argument all the time. I think it's a bit of a silly criticism to levy against batman because batman is a demigod from a children's cartoon. The fact is that no amount of philanthropy can morally justify the level of inequality exemplified by billionaires, but that kind of systemic thinking about the world is not usually relevant to Batman stories.
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Aug 30, 2023 19:06
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Robindaybird posted:I'm reminded the first animated appearance of Scrooge wasn't Mickey's Christmas Carol but a short where Scrooge teaches the nephews the basics of banking, taxation, and investing and he just consider taxation as a part of doing business instead of something to avoid like you see with modern corps and ultrarich fucks. Remembering the Behind the Bastards about Jack Welch where prior to his takeover, GE was seen as an archetypical great company because it provided careers, good income, stability, and paid more than its fair share of taxes because it wanted to be a good corporate citizen and that's what you were supposed to do This is a non-sequitur but I can't resist posting it again. His next appearance was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggmVm2ljDuw Basically the backdoor pilot for Ducktales was this weird aerobics-era fitness special attempting to rebrand Goofy as a "sports" figure. But look at that animation! Some soon-to-be big names in the credits. Also spotted: Gyro, possibly Roger Rabbit Data Graham fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Aug 30, 2023 |
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Aug 30, 2023 19:08
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9d8l-Gkweg and here's Scrooge McDuck and Money (1967) - which is also interesting from an aspect of how money, taxes, etc. is view in this period compared to how it's seen now (though there's definitely some yikes of 'lol women sure love spending money' at points). But yeah that Soccermania is really showing some rough draft designs for a lot of Ducktales design. Robindaybird fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Aug 30, 2023 |
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Aug 30, 2023 19:25
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Data Graham posted:Remembering the Behind the Bastards about Jack Welch where prior to his takeover, GE was seen as an archetypical great company because it provided careers, good income, stability, and paid more than its fair share of taxes because it wanted to be a good corporate citizen and that's what you were supposed to do And here I was reminded of the BtB episodes on Sam Bankman-Fried and his whole horseshit “effective altruism” shtick. 
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Aug 30, 2023 19:45
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Wittgen posted:"It's OK for so and so to be a billionaire because they use their money for philanthropy" is textbook propaganda though. Real billionaires use this exact same argument all the time. Sure, but that's literally your only choice in not making your billionaire a villain. There is realistically zero reason billionaires should even exist, so "rich enough to fund these expensive gadgets" has to go with "uses immense power for good." Otherwise you end up with this scene from Fargo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9TOWIc_KLU
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Aug 30, 2023 20:40
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Das Boo posted:Sure, but that's literally your only choice in not making your billionaire a villain. There is realistically zero reason billionaires should even exist, so "rich enough to fund these expensive gadgets" has to go with "uses immense power for good." There is a criticism of Batman being a story that glorifies a billionaire who beats up poor people. Some people were saying this is a stupid reading that shows complete ignorance of Batman stories because Batman does a ton of charity work. I am saying this is a very weak defense because it is literally what real billionaires say to defend their indefensible existence. Just like any story about cops will have a hard time not being copaganda on some level, any story centering an ultra wealthy guy will struggle not to reinforce a world view which supports real world wealthy people. I don't think it means you can't tell good stories about rich people. Batman and Rick tales rule. It does mean "Batman gives to charity though; read a comic" is not a strong rejoinder to criticism.
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Aug 30, 2023 22:59
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Wittgen posted:There is a criticism of Batman being a story that glorifies a billionaire who beats up poor people. Some people were saying this is a stupid reading that shows complete ignorance of Batman stories because Batman does a ton of charity work. I am saying this is a very weak defense because it is literally what real billionaires say to defend their indefensible existence. What was said was that it was a stupid reading because most Batmen don't beat up poor people.
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Aug 31, 2023 15:19
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Darko posted:What was said was that it was a stupid reading because most Batmen don't beat up poor people. Also, his charity work isn't just aimless philanthropy, but directly targeted at lessening the conditions that lead to people becoming criminals in Gotham.
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Aug 31, 2023 15:48
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Phylodox posted:Also, his charity work isn't just aimless philanthropy, but directly targeted at lessening the conditions that lead to people becoming criminals in Gotham. Or, in Nolan's trilogy, trying to create free energy, which would directly affect the lower class for the positive and then willingly giving up his billions at the end and giving his legacy to the working class and orphans.
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Aug 31, 2023 15:50
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Darko posted:What was said was that it was a stupid reading because most Batmen don't beat up poor people. The villains in charge may not be, but their thugs are almost certainly just trying to survive.
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Aug 31, 2023 16:06
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MikeJF posted:The villains in charge may not be, but their thugs are almost certainly just trying to survive. Most writers have gotten away from Batman doing that. I'm the one that said TAS Batman kind of started off doing some of that (and does in the opening) but then as it continued, he shied away from it and only went after supervillains and focused on actual philanthropy. Nolan Batman specifically doesn't do this as he only goes after people that have signed up for actual organized crime or a terrorist cult and focuses mainly on their leaders (he only takes out regular thugs in one scene in Batman Begins and the opening of TDK for Scarecrow's guys that were actively going after him and that was specifically to stop organized crime - otherwise it was the bosses or League of Shadows people). He specifically tells Dent to lay off Joker's thugs because they're mentally ill and not the true problem.
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Aug 31, 2023 16:15
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One time Batman forced Robin the Boy Wonder and Superman's Friend Jimmy Olson to dig their own graves. I wouldn't trust a man like that with any more orphans.
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Aug 31, 2023 19:07
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FunkyAl posted:One time Batman forced Robin the Boy Wonder and Superman's Friend Jimmy Olson to dig their own graves. I wouldn't trust a man like that with any more orphans. my neighbor told me the joker keeps killing his orphans so I asked how many orphans he has and he said he just goes to the orphanage and gets a new orphan afterwards so I said it sounds like he’s just feeding orphans to the joker and then his butler started crying.
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Aug 31, 2023 19:25
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https://twitter.com/wario64/status/1697309615694795180?s=61&t=-vp9P7i8Kl2W3uKiLPEWrA
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Aug 31, 2023 19:58
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Regalingualius posted:https://twitter.com/wario64/status/1697309615694795180?s=61&t=-vp9P7i8Kl2W3uKiLPEWrA Speaking of, the first episode of Fiona & Cake is out now. Anybody have a chance to watch it yet? Also Mutant Mayhem releases digitally tomorrow: https://comicbook.com/movies/news/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-mayhem-digital-release-date-bonus-features/
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Aug 31, 2023 20:09
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Darko posted:What was said was that it was a stupid reading because most Batmen don't beat up poor people. Yeah, Batman is a rich guy who spends most of his time beating up other rich guys. The Joker is loaded, he has a whole team of expensive lawyers who keep him from getting the death penalty. The Penguin, Ra's al Ghul, Hush, the Court of owls, all rich. Turns out crime DOES pay.
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Aug 31, 2023 20:39
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Robindaybird posted:It really doesn't help the Arkham Asylum series and the Harley Quinn show (Which did a lot of character assassinations of heroes to make their villain protagonists more palatable) lean heavily into the Grimdork brutality aspect instead of that Wayne is heavily philanthropic and he does try to funnel the 'criminal out of desperation' mooks into legitimate jobs and only go after the mass criminals. This one bothers me because it feels incredibly lazy. Like instead of even trying to redeem them or acknowledge that they did heinous and terrible things that that do need to answer and make up for. Harley is especially bad about this(even moreso in the Injustice comics which are especially bad about the character assassination) since DC very blatantly is trying to put her over as they equivalent of Deadpool.
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Sep 1, 2023 00:39
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doomrider7 posted:This one bothers me because it feels incredibly lazy. Like instead of even trying to redeem them or acknowledge that they did heinous and terrible things that that do need to answer and make up for. Harley is especially bad about this(even moreso in the Injustice comics which are especially bad about the character assassination) since DC very blatantly is trying to put her over as they equivalent of Deadpool. I get it's supposedly from her PoV so she isn't going to be the most reliable narrator but there's definitely making the heroes more deranged (Gordon) or assholes, and also a strong tendency to just outright members of Bat's rogue gallery - Nightwing is an rear end in a top hat - which just shouldn't happen.
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Sep 1, 2023 00:59
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Fiona & Cake seems decent based on the first two episodes though it’s very much not something a first timer can get into as there are several direct story references to AT proper. Seems they’ll be dropping the entire 10 episode run over the next 5 weeks (two episodes every Thursday) Larryb fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Sep 1, 2023 |
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Sep 1, 2023 01:10
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Larryb posted:Speaking of, the first episode of Fiona & Cake is out now. Anybody have a chance to watch it yet? Price error still working now for me at 11:30 est 
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Sep 1, 2023 16:28
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Wittgen posted:There is a criticism of Batman being a story that glorifies a billionaire who beats up poor people. Some people were saying this is a stupid reading that shows complete ignorance of Batman stories because Batman does a ton of charity work. I am saying this is a very weak defense because it is literally what real billionaires say to defend their indefensible existence. I'm struggling to think of many comics where Batman does that, and I've read my fair share of them. I guess TAS had a lot of episodes where he'd beat up goons "dat tawk like dis" or whatever, but modern Batman seems to be jumping from one gothic conspiracy to investigating supercriminals or other high concept stuff. I know people don't mean it as literally as him just randomly punching someone on minimum wage, but the stories where he brutalises a desperate mugger or whatever seem relatively rare.
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Sep 1, 2023 16:53
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I saw Mutant Mayhem with my 6yo nephew, whose primary exposure to the franchise seems to be the cg animated series from a few years ago. When Splinter was giving his backstory, my nephew says, "He's lying. He used to be a person." Are there different continuities?
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Sep 2, 2023 00:07
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SolarFire2 posted:I saw Mutant Mayhem with my 6yo nephew, whose primary exposure to the franchise seems to be the cg animated series from a few years ago. When Splinter was giving his backstory, my nephew says, "He's lying. He used to be a person." Are there different continuities? Pretty much every TMNT incarnation is a different continuity with different takes on the backstory (sometimes Splinter is the mutated form of a man named Hamato Yoshi, in the 2003 series and original comics he was a normal rat who was Yoshi’s pet, and in this movie he’s just a rat and Yoshi doesn’t seem to exist)
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Sep 2, 2023 00:10
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I imagine even without some kind of knowledge of TMNT before, Splinter's character is always portrayed as an older dude who is a master. So I think it makes sense to go this character has way more knowledge and experience than the turtles -> this character used to be a human and not an unthinking animal like the turtles. I haven't seen the movie yet, I dunno if they do anything with Splinter like training himself, but that's my guess as to why your Nephew might think he started off human
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Sep 2, 2023 00:14
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Splinter started as a human in the two most recent animated series.
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Sep 2, 2023 00:17
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Yeah, but if Splinter was a human first, we wouldn’t have gotten a rat puppet doing sweet karate moves https://youtu.be/MEstGqgPzks?si=LN22L3xBKEhFFAwN
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Sep 2, 2023 00:28
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YggiDee posted:Splinter started as a human in the two most recent animated series. Along with the original 1987 cartoon (I think the only times he was just a pet rat outside of the comics were the 2003 cartoon and the movies)
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Sep 2, 2023 00:30
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One of the character traits I really liked with the DCAU Batman (which really came about with The New Batman/Superman Adventures) is that Bruce Wayne became less of a goofy playboy persona, and more of Gotham's guardian angel. He doesn't just donate to charity so that he can parade with the hottest socialites. He uses his companies and foundations to help rebuild Gotham and rehabilitate criminals. The episode where Nightwing/Dick Grayson tells Robin/Tim Drake why he quit really underscores that part. Batman realizes that he sometimes goes too far, and he uses who he is as Bruce Wayne to repent for his own sins.
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Sep 2, 2023 00:49
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Macaluso posted:I haven't seen the movie yet, I dunno if they do anything with Splinter like training himself, but that's my guess as to why your Nephew might think he started off human Splinter learns martial arts from TV/YouTube
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Sep 2, 2023 00:50
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Klungar posted:Splinter learns martial arts from TV/YouTube 
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Sep 2, 2023 00:55
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Klungar posted:Splinter learns martial arts from TV/YouTube He's just like me fr
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Sep 2, 2023 01:18
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I never thought about how canonically, Splinter woke up every morning and open palm slammed the VHS into the slot.
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Sep 2, 2023 01:25
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Disco Pope posted:I'm struggling to think of many comics where Batman does that, and I've read my fair share of them. I guess TAS had a lot of episodes where he'd beat up goons "dat tawk like dis" or whatever, but modern Batman seems to be jumping from one gothic conspiracy to investigating supercriminals or other high concept stuff. Even then a lot of the time the goons are the ones he shows the most relative restraint to, when not terrorising them for information anyway. I love the one episode which is all from the perspective of a particularly hapless goon who gets credited accidentally with supposedly killing the Batman.
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Sep 2, 2023 02:52
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Even then a lot of the time the goons are the ones he shows the most relative restraint to, when not terrorising them for information anyway. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOd79cgq8rQ
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Sep 2, 2023 03:25
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