|
Kaal posted:Pesticides are only intangible and unseen if your only exposure to farming is the grocery store - they cause all the same problems as any other use of fossil fuels. GMOs are essentially synonymous with pesticides, because a lot of the promises of drought resistant crops have ended up being moonshine. And there’s a host of medical objections to processed foods. These are topics where there’s still quite a bit of real scientific controversy over their merits. I’m not sure including them in that list really supports the argument that people are ignorant and just fear the unknown. This is not the thread for this debate, but GMOs are not the same thing as pesticides, which are not the same thing as processed foods. People conflating them is bad, because a problem with one is not a problem with the others.
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2023 19:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 00:06 |
|
|
We will not be talking about GMOs or processed foods in the energy generation thread. Move on, everyone.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2023 20:30
|
|
|
Edit: NM.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2023 20:50
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/colinmckerrache/status/1696482907538264353?s=20 While the energy transition isn't happening as fast as we'd like... it is happening.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2023 06:24
|
|
|
Crosby B. Alfred posted:https://twitter.com/colinmckerrache/status/1696482907538264353?s=20 Yea, but at what cost?
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2023 20:50
|
|
|
you talking about the cost of installing the grid capacity, or the cost of not doing it fast enough?
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2023 23:38
|
|
|
Potato Salad posted:you talking about the cost of installing the grid capacity, or the cost of not doing it fast enough? https://www.npr.org/2023/03/02/1160441919/china-is-building-six-times-more-new-coal-plants-than-other-countries-report-fin quote:50 GW of coal power capacity started construction in China in 2022, a more than 50% increase from 2021. Many of these projects had their permits fast-tracked and moved to construction in a matter of months. A total of 106 GW of new coal power projects were permitted, the equivalent of two large coal power plants per week 1. The amount of capacity permitted more than quadrupled from 23 GW in 2021.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 01:08
|
|
|
floppyspud posted:how many scientific studies do i have to show to an anti-nuclear person before they either start absorbing information, get a better argument than "tell that to the 50 people's that died families," or give me a source? help me d&d Don’t show them your viewpoint. Ask about the assumptions that make up theirs and dig deeper into them until you open them up as weak. Once they break that down then you can swoop in and save them from cognitive dissonance.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 01:51
|
|
|
Mid-Life Crisis posted:Don’t show them your viewpoint. Ask about the assumptions that make up theirs and dig deeper into them until you open them up as weak. Once they break that down then you can swoop in and save them from cognitive dissonance. I’ve tried that, on someones point “it still has killed people, so it should be limited” (because solar, wind, and hydro have never killed anyone ever) I asked them “people occasionally die in hospitals, but you wouldn’t ban hospitals because they save infinitely more lives than they kill, would you.” It didn’t work.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 03:38
|
|
|
Some time ago I thought out loud in this thread about utilizing batteries as a way to more effectively use the existing reciprocating engine (HFO) generation. Well, it has been a few years and we now have approval to install a 20 MWHr battery  It should be complete next year sometime and comes with +30 MW solar generation park as well.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 10:28
|
|
|
GlassEye-Boy posted:Yea, but at what cost? Good point but I think the idea is to get rid of ICE passenger vehicles as quickly as possible while simultaneously transiting to nuclear plus renewables. It is kind of funny how in some US States you see Telsa's or other EVs with bumper stickers that say coal powered or natural gas powered.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 10:44
|
|
|
Crosby B. Alfred posted:It is kind of funny how in some US States you see Telsa's or other EVs with bumper stickers that say coal powered or natural gas powered. so close, yet so far
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 11:29
|
|
|
Mid-Life Crisis posted:Don’t show them your viewpoint. Ask about the assumptions that make up theirs and dig deeper into them until you open them up as weak. Once they break that down then you can swoop in and save them from cognitive dissonance. That is dumb.* The oldest anti-nuclear argument is that the first test detonation of the atomic bomb would ignite the atmosphere and kill everybody on earth. This is the most obviously wrong anti-nuclear argument. If refuting that is not convincing anybody, maybe you should actually look for the argument that convinced the person you are talking to to be anti-nuclear. Also discussing politics in an ultra abstract idealized way is already questionable. The discussion will always return to the most recent policy proposal that was considered pro/anti nuclear in your region. * e: this was exaggerated. It would be dumb for me to follow your plan. If you are satisfied with the current trends in your region then preventing any activism and change by re-framing the debate to be about abstract hypotheticals makes sense. But you must be careful to not fall into the trap that the German pro-nuclear movements are in right now, where they are in the habit of arguing in ways that intrinsically support the status quo. VictualSquid fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Sep 3, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 12:10
|
|
|
Flappy Bert posted:https://www.npr.org/2023/03/02/1160441919/china-is-building-six-times-more-new-coal-plants-than-other-countries-report-fin quote:50 GW of coal power capacity started construction in China in 2022, a more than 50% increase from 2021. Many of these projects had their permits fast-tracked and moved to construction in a matter of months. A total of 106 GW of new coal power projects were permitted, the equivalent of two large coal power plants per week 1. The amount of capacity permitted more than quadrupled from 23 GW in 2021. Worth remembering whenever this thread talks about China’s amazing investments in nuclear, for example, from three days ago: Dante80 posted:How China became the king of new nuclear power, and how the U.S. is trying to stage a comeback
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 12:52
|
|
|
China's increase in coal production is honestly kinda evidence for how renewables aren't going to allow for rapid decarbonization while letting the economy grow; especially for the Global South/Developing nations who absolutely will find it unacceptable to be told to stop growing by weirdo first world greens.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 15:47
|
|
|
in a well actually posted:Worth remembering whenever this thread talks about China’s amazing investments in nuclear, for example, from three days ago: Yeah their energy growth is insane and they're pretty much maxed out on how much nuclear power they can build at once. I see these two stories and think "I am glad they are able to build 30% fewer coal plants than they would need to otherwise." I wish the US was able to build fewer fossil fuel plants.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 17:24
|
|
|
Also I understand a lot of the coal being built is to (or will) replace older coal generation from a time with far less stringent air quality standards. It is not even just from a CO2 basis but also from pure air quality in large cities they really need to do a lot of work. One of the reasons China has not exported any nuclear tech is because it is well below capacity to build nuclear generation in their own country let alone outside.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 18:10
|
|
|
Flappy Bert posted:https://www.npr.org/2023/03/02/1160441919/china-is-building-six-times-more-new-coal-plants-than-other-countries-report-fin This stupid point is brought up every time, yes they are permitting new coal, but at the same time they are shutting down the same amount if not more, replacing older smaller and dirtier plants with larger cleaner ones. But you'll never see media reporting on that part.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 18:12
|
|
|
GlassEye-Boy posted:This stupid point is brought up every time, yes they are permitting new coal, but at the same time they are shutting down the same amount if not more, replacing older smaller and dirtier plants with larger cleaner ones.  Wow, look at all the coal shutting off.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 18:20
|
|
|
in a well actually posted:
You certainly didn't pick the easiest graph to showcase that
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 18:23
|
|
|
I dunno, looks like coal is relatively stable (once you subtract the increase in oil that is pushing up the top of the coal line) since 2010 considering just how much coal generation they have and are building at the same time. Hints that they are shuttering older generation. and Xakura posted:You certainly didn't pick the easiest graph to showcase that
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 18:27
|
|
|
in a well actually posted:
That is a pretty bad graph for what you are trying to argue. Having said that: 1. Your chart shows that between 2014 and 2020 coal energy production in TWh remained dead flat (while overall production went from 34 to 40+ kTWh). Here is the slice.  2. From 2020 onwards, covid did a very big number on coal...much more (as a percentage) than other types of generation. Dante80 fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Sep 3, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 18:36
|
|
|
in a well actually posted:
Yes exactly as your graph shows.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 18:46
|
|
|
VictualSquid posted:That is dumb.* The unabomber approach, eh
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 20:10
|
|
|
in a well actually posted:
It kinda looks like all of the non-coal stuff are slowly taking up a larger proportion of the energy pie? How do you propose China meets baseload energy needs for its economy?
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 22:26
|
|
|
in a well actually posted:
this was beautiful
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 22:40
|
|
|
MightyBigMinus posted:this was beautiful I'd like to ask you my question as well, what do you think China should be doing differently? That maintains economic growth of course and keeps electricity on in peoples homes?
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2023 22:54
|
|
|
MightyBigMinus posted:this was beautiful Am I missing something here? People are responding to a graph that shows power generation in China is mostly fossil fuels followed by a small portion of hydropower and nuclear and an even smaller portion of solar and wind as if it is an indication of progress? Because this situation looks incredibly bleak. The graph may not be the best, but I don't think you can get a positive interpretation out of it without a severe dose of optimism.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 00:09
|
|
|
Smiling Demon posted:Am I missing something here? The graph shows that after about 2010 coal basically stopped increasing in China. Yes it's still a large percentage, but almost all the newly added power have been alternative to fossil fuels. The total number of coal should also drop once they have sufficient nuclear and other sources to cover base load. But the narrative that China is building more coal plants than ever is a convenient lie that allows other to point a finger at them and say see we don't need to do anything because China is ignoring their climate commitments.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 00:30
|
|
|
Smiling Demon posted:Am I missing something here? The graph was posted in response to this: GlassEye-Boy posted:This stupid point is brought up every time, yes they are permitting new coal, but at the same time they are shutting down the same amount if not more, replacing older smaller and dirtier plants with larger cleaner ones. The graph actually confirms what this post is saying: they are building shitloads of new coal plants, but their total coal power generation hasn't grown since around 2010. The positive interpretation is that their energy growth is in other energy sectors, and not coal
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 01:43
|
|
|
I believe Smiling Demon's point is that while coal nameplate generation isn't increasing, neither are renewables or nuclear in a meaningful sense. The additional increase in power comes from new oil & gas plants coming online, which is not as bad as coal but is not great, and hydro, which has limited future growth potential.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 02:12
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:I'd like to ask you my question as well, what do you think China should be doing differently? That maintains economic growth of course and keeps electricity on in peoples homes? my conversations with chairman xi are private, but generally americans yammering about what china should do is a super gross look when they're in the middle of being world-historic-pole-position awful themselves. we can talk about china doing it wrong when we're doing it right. anything before that is just a mixture of racism and whataboutism. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 03:41
|
|
|
I wonder what the relationship is between more CO2 and algae levels in the ocean
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 04:21
|
|
|
TheMuffinMan posted:I wonder what the relationship is between more CO2 and algae levels in the ocean I mean its the same between trees and CO2 where they absorb the carbon. I would assume that they just end up reproducing faster because they have more of it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 05:12
|
|
|
Another way to look at the numbers      The IEA tools are pretty comprehensive and let's you show the data in a few ways. This is electricity supply by source in percentages. The growth in geothermal in the US is a little surprising and I honestly thought solar generally had made more of an impact at this point.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 06:05
|
|
|
Owling Howl posted:The growth in geothermal in the US is a little surprising and I honestly thought solar generally had made more of an impact at this point. I think the segment you're reading as geothermal is actually the solar PV segment?
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 06:41
|
|
|
Kalman posted:I think the segment you're reading as geothermal is actually the solar PV segment? Yeah that's it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 06:50
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 14:10
|
|
|
I was flying on a plane, and a medical doctor sitting next to me said he was a proponent of wind turbines because they could be used to create strong winds that would push away the clouds. I didn't know what to say so I said "oh that's nice"
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 14:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 00:06 |
|
|
celewign posted:I was flying on a plane, and a medical doctor sitting next to me said he was a proponent of wind turbines because they could be used to create strong winds that would push away the clouds. Flip the switch on the side from suck to blow.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 14:43
|
|