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If it's a pale cio, does that make it lemonade?
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Sep 3, 2023 18:14
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nimby posted:If it's a pale cio, does that make it lemonade? maybe more like crystal pepsi
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Sep 3, 2023 18:19
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siarwai estiael piipiesai
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Sep 3, 2023 18:22
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I'll be honest given how hard he tried to preempt the Bury Your Gays allegations I fully expect Cio to come back, and not in a Ship of Theseus situation where Allison has to learn to let go or whatever.
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Sep 3, 2023 19:25
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YaketySass posted:I'll be honest given how hard he tried to preempt the Bury Your Gays allegations I fully expect Cio to come back, and not in a Ship of Theseus situation where Allison has to learn to let go or whatever. I mean, I think he was more trying to argue against it being another woman in a fridge (which it’s not, Cio died in action and as a result of the fruits of her own character arc).
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Sep 3, 2023 19:48
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Joe Slowboat posted:I mean, I think he was more trying to argue against it being another woman in a fridge (which it’s not, Cio died in action and as a result of the fruits of her own character arc). The internet as a whole has a problem with taking “this female character died” as “this female character was fridged” regardless of context or the events around their actual death so getting out ahead of that poo poo was smart.
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Sep 3, 2023 21:29
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my memory isn't great and all but like there was this big backlash a couple years ago (more then a couple years? time is fake) against this broader trend at the time in pop media where the gay romance subplot always ended with one or both characters dying. and like, it doesn't really matter if each individual instance is justified in the context of the story or not, the broader trend of if gay then die was loving depressing. ever since then there's been a lot of touchiness over gay characters kicking the bucket, at least on the inescapable cesspit of twitter that's what the whole 'bury your gays' thing was about i thought, not about women getting fridged? that's a completely separate lineage of comic book misogyny
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Sep 3, 2023 21:56
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Yeah, bury your gays was distinct from fridging. Overall the trend was probably because the gay characters were usually a secondary pairing ripe for some cheap drama via killing one of them, which of course we can't do to the main, straight pair. Especially since gay relationships are usually already more tragic on TV than the straight ones already, making it all the more tempting. And when the gay characters were the main couple, well, lots and lots of gay media likes to have a sad ending. It's always been a thing but it got much better known after the great lesbian death wave of 2016.
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Sep 3, 2023 22:13
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it's the same basic phenomenon of those characters not really getting agency or a story in their own right, just existing to die for a moment of cheap pathos and give the people who actually matter some Depth™
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Sep 3, 2023 22:17
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iirc it was also exacerbated by writers saying "well we want to be As LBGT Positive As We're Allowed To Be" and then cut the relationship off at the point The Networks started to complain about what was being shown (and what better way to do that than a dramatic death)
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Sep 3, 2023 22:50
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I don't buy that this comic is an example of that, because Allison and White Chain are both LGBTQ and still alive, and Cio didn't die BECAUSE she was gay. Plus she was a fully formed character who did not just have the sole purpose of dying to progress Allison's story.
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Sep 3, 2023 22:53
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The way to get around narrative traps like Bury Your Gays is to flood your story with so many queer people that no individual character represents All Gay People, no single story represents the entire queer experience, etc. Abaddon 's done admirably well on that front, I think.
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Sep 3, 2023 23:03
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Rotten Red Rod posted:I don't buy that this comic is an example of that, because Allison and White Chain are both LGBTQ and still alive, and Cio didn't die BECAUSE she was gay. Plus she was a fully formed character who did not just have the sole purpose of dying to progress Allison's story. No argument there, but that's the conflation of "fridging" and "kill your gays" again-- the latter has nothing to do with the former necessarily, as much as it does the sheer volume of "gay couples killed off because of reasons that make sense or are justifiable from an in-narrative standpoint but taken as a whole across the entertainment industry are concerning in their frequency and people are loving tired of seeing"
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Sep 3, 2023 23:04
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oh i don't think it is either, for exactly those reasons never mind like, there's a world of difference between a 1 person project and a corporate product with a massive production team i am kind of bummed that it looks like cio is gone for good, but i don't think i'd call her a victim of burying one's gays
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Sep 3, 2023 23:05
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It's good that we're sad about Cio dying. I wouldn't be invested in the story without those kind of stakes and consequences.
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Sep 3, 2023 23:10
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tbh I think the argument kind of gets mired in the idea that if something matches any negative trope it's inherently bad so people try to contort about how a story doesn't have that trope because they like the author cio was gay and died, this story has a dead gay, the trope is Unambiguously There (at least, barring a narrative magical resurrection, which it may or may not), but I also agree that it's not super worth dwelling on in a vaccuum-- there's a huge volume of other media out there that's "they did this and also these 10 other justified-by-the-narrative-but-lovely things elsewhere in the same work" and that's why they don't get a pass, not because the trope itself is an automatic go-to-jail-do-not-pass-go card
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Sep 3, 2023 23:22
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Burying One's Gays being so broad in its definition makes it seem a lot like the Bechdel Test: A mere observation when studying any singular piece of media but of considerable value when studying a trend, however no one cares to actually save it for the latter.
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Sep 4, 2023 01:35
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the bechdel test is a diegetic joke in a comic strip, about having low standards and still being disappointed
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Sep 4, 2023 01:51
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Unless I have a male identifying dick in my mouth as I'm reading a comic it isn't gay enough and I call upon the gay community to help me overcome this grave injustice
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Sep 4, 2023 02:15
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If Cio doesn't come back then I'm going to get full Aeris in FF7 about it.
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Sep 4, 2023 02:23
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I will tell you precisely what Royalty is, it is a continuous shipping motion uwu
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Sep 4, 2023 03:01
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SardonicTyrant posted:“[…]descended there an angel with a silver sword. An the angel said ‘Come and see,’ and I saw. There upon the great hill of rot, the great and terrible beasts of the earth had gathered, and a hundred thousand times a thousand strong men, girded for war, with chariot and horse and war shade. The ground had cracked and the bowels of the land had split and all manner of ancient things from the cold and old world had crawled from the ash and were making havoc upon the land. There was a sound so terrible it could not be withstood except by those who had, through manner of hardship or war, been exposed to the noise of innumerable dying animals.” There is a version of it read by Jonny Cash that is lovely. Some of it is in the opening to The Man Comes Around, a similar verse but not that one.
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Sep 4, 2023 03:05
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Yeah as a dyke I'm not too bothered by a queer character dying as long as they're not the only queer character around for miles (aside from their now-tragically marooned lover). In a comic that firmly centers a bisexual woman and has other queer characters in it all the time (hello Princess Jack Daniels and whatever is going on with your gender I love you very much), it never felt like a Bury Your Gays thing to me, though I can understand why the writer was afraid of the backlash.Ursine Catastrophe posted:iirc it was also exacerbated by writers saying "well we want to be As LBGT Positive As We're Allowed To Be" and then cut the relationship off at the point The Networks started to complain about what was being shown (and what better way to do that than a dramatic death) I have no problem with the writer or narrative if Cio doesn't come back. It's just me being sad and soft-hearted and wanting Cio to get a happy ending because I think she's nice.
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Sep 4, 2023 03:45
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The point of Cio's death is that Incubus did have a point: Allison should have stopped him, and she's only alive because Maya learned that lesson earlier. There are people like him who are going to keep ruining everything in reach until someone stops them. There are animals who can only be civilized by the threat of violence. And then there are dead men who can't even be civilized by that. Sometimes violence is justified; in any case, it is inescapable.
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Sep 4, 2023 07:41
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I think that the pale demon having enough agency and sheer will to rebuild it's own mask, rather than having it done for them, speaks to something. White Chain transcended, after all. I'm guessing that the comic's ending/epilogue will be told by a character that is obviously Cio, but just looks/acts slightly differently.
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Sep 4, 2023 15:37
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Which isnt saying much when all of the characters act differently and many of them aren't even obviously who they were. Continuity of identity is overrated.
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Sep 4, 2023 16:17
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Even Princess’s various forms and incarnations are vastly different people. And her previous mask was completely destroyed.
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Sep 4, 2023 16:27
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I fully expect New Coke to break Allison's command and go "screw you, yeah I'm a new person but also I'm back for kisses because I too am a colossal dumbass"
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Sep 4, 2023 16:53
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A Terrible Person posted:I think that the pale demon having enough agency and sheer will to rebuild it's own mask, rather than having it done for them, speaks to something. White Chain transcended, after all.
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Sep 4, 2023 17:09
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Cio is going to come back as a different person and everyone will hate it, then they'll revert Cio to the old version but this time her blood is replaced with corn syrup to cut costs
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Sep 4, 2023 17:11
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the holy poopacy posted:Cio is going to come back as a different person and everyone will hate it, then they'll revert Cio to the old version but this time her blood is replaced with corn syrup to cut costs But only in Mammon's worlds.
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Sep 4, 2023 17:22
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wiegieman posted:There are animals who can only be civilized by the threat of violence. I'm... not sure that's quite the intended message.
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Sep 4, 2023 17:25
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Allison will just command Princess to put on a Cio mask because continuity of identity's bullshit anyway.
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Sep 4, 2023 17:49
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Hey, I could be making this up, but was there a discussion in this thread comparing Incubus to a type of character from uh... another comic? a manga? a tabletop RPG? Basically a person who had a chance at true enlightenment and rejected it and was all the more dangerous because of that? Does anyone remember that, and if someone does, can you point me in that direction?
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Sep 4, 2023 18:40
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Pepsi
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Sep 4, 2023 19:01
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GreenMetalSun posted:Hey, I could be making this up, but was there a discussion in this thread comparing Incubus to a type of character from uh... another comic? a manga? a tabletop RPG?
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Sep 4, 2023 19:14
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GreenMetalSun posted:Hey, I could be making this up, but was there a discussion in this thread comparing Incubus to a type of character from uh... another comic? a manga? a tabletop RPG? Iirc it was more about Dave than Incubus (Inky has never been mistaken for somebody close to Enlightenment), in the context of an archetype from the Exalted TRPG I think? I also want to say it was more stumbling at the last step of Enlightenment and falling all the way back down the stairs rather than willfully rejecting it.
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Sep 4, 2023 19:35
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GreenMetalSun posted:Hey, I could be making this up, but was there a discussion in this thread comparing Incubus to a type of character from uh... another comic? a manga? a tabletop RPG? Sheng Seleris, the setting is Glorantha e: the archetype is called Occluded iirc, realizes that the world is an illusion and then goes "and i'm gonna be in charge of it"
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Sep 4, 2023 19:50
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my dad posted:Sheng Seleris, the setting is Glorantha Yes, this was it. Thank you guys!
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Sep 4, 2023 19:52
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Sheng Seleris, Murder Astronaut, who realized everything was a painful illusion, all values were relative, and nothing was of inherent worth, and thus only power matters. And then conquered the Moon, before the Lunar Empire struck back and sent him to the Special Hell for Sheng Seleris, guarded by the Goddess of Fighting Sheng Seleris. He had an impact on their theology is what I’m saying.
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Sep 4, 2023 22:13
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