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Jen X posted:
In this game Monks can go super saiyan and fighters can swing a sword so precisely it cuts space and time and folds space around the slice, shortening the world and bringing the target to them. But also this is just a dumb take in general because "Rogue just stabs a guy any wizard could do that" is both pathetically poor imagination and ignoring what they're actually doing. It's like watching John wick and thinking "Yeah I could do that poo poo easily no big deal".
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Sep 4, 2023 14:40
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When there's no magic involved, Pathfinder follows the laws of physics right until they're broken by a far more important one: the rule of cool.
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Sep 4, 2023 17:29
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I’d forgotten that Pathfinder’s math is so tight that one of Fighter’s capstone feats, up there with cleaving spacetime or becoming permanently quickened, is critting on a 19. (But only if you would have hit anyway.)
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Sep 4, 2023 17:43
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blastron posted:I’d forgotten that Pathfinder’s math is so tight that one of Fighter’s capstone feats, up there with cleaving spacetime or becoming permanently quickened, is critting on a 19. (But only if you would have hit anyway.) Eh, that one's only 18th level, which competes with "literally slash a spell out of the air" or "fire a volley of arrows that hits everyone in a 20 foot circle". 
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Sep 4, 2023 17:55
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:But also this is just a dumb take in general because "Rogue just stabs a guy any wizard could do that" is both pathetically poor imagination and ignoring what they're actually doing. It's like watching John wick and thinking "Yeah I could do that poo poo easily no big deal".
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Sep 4, 2023 19:40
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Clerical Terrors posted:Is this really a Pathfinder specific issue? I feel like this is something you run into very fast in any setting where some people just swing swords around while others speak in tongues and shoot lightning from their fingertips. Hell I think I've heard this same discussion before with regards to Force users vs. everyone else in Star Wars (although lbf, Star Wars is basically Space Fantasy anyways) Not at all, it’s an issue in all D&D derivatives ZenMasterBullshit posted:In this game Monks can go super saiyan and fighters can swing a sword so precisely it cuts space and time and folds space around the slice, shortening the world and bringing the target to them. Yes, if you ignore the multiple times I’ve noted that I’m talking about the level ranges before all of that it sure does look dumb, as does this post deciding that the response is to delve into minutiae and not at all address the actual point. One set of characters have the burden of expected mundane function via real life physics and the other set does not, which leads to an awkward tension where “but that makes no sense!” is a reflexive sentiment for the mundane characters doing non-mundane things. This is compounded by the vast majority of the cool crazy stuff being higher level while casters are supernatural from day one. Also I forgot monks existed tbh
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Sep 4, 2023 20:00
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A lot of "martials" are also supernatural from day one, though (Champions, Thaumaturges, most Barbarian subclasses), or at least have gonzo concepts in a non-supernatural way (Inventors, Investigators). The "regular guy who swings a sword" vibe is mostly just a Fighter thing.
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Sep 4, 2023 20:14
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Jen X posted:One set of characters have the burden of expected mundane function via real life physics and the other set does not, I'm not sure I agree - by level 8 Sudden Leap is a thing. With Master Athletics, 18 Str, and a +1 item, you can expect jumping 20-30 feet in the air nonmagically to be a thing, which is pretty outside of real life physics. Incidentally, the Olympic record is ~8 feet. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Sep 4, 2023 |
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Sep 4, 2023 20:38
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Silver2195 posted:A lot of "martials" are also supernatural from day one, though (Champions, Thaumaturges, most Barbarian subclasses), or at least have gonzo concepts in a non-supernatural way (Inventors, Investigators). The "regular guy who swings a sword" vibe is mostly just a Fighter thing. Eh, it’s also true of rogues, rangers (with like 3 feat exceptions), and swashbucklers, but you’re right that PF2 isn’t really rife with lots of “guy who just uses sword/dagger/bow good” classes.
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Sep 4, 2023 20:41
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Cyouni posted:I'm not sure I agree - by level 8 Sudden Leap is a thing. With Master Athletics, 18 Str, and a +1 item, you can expect jumping 20-30 feet in the air nonmagically to be a thing, which is pretty outside of real life physics. Mastery in a skill makes you Jump Good. big fuckin wow meanwhile by level 8 the sorcerer can... gently caress it, you fill in the blank Sincere question: how often are peoples' characters using Big Jumps in games? I understand that you can use Quick Jump as a way to bypass difficult terrain, thus making it actually useful in combat, but how often are people doing super jumps to ascend tall buildings or some poo poo? Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Sep 4, 2023 |
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Sep 4, 2023 20:54
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The point was that even martials are exhibiting superhuman capabilities. Tripling the current "best athlete in the loving world"-level high jump is pretty supernatural to me, but then again I'm not the sort of boring-rear end grog that gets mad at martials doing cool poo poo, so 
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Sep 4, 2023 20:57
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Dick Burglar posted:Mastery in a skill makes you Jump Good. big fuckin wow Jumping is very strong before you start getting flight capabilities (and often good after too since it doesn't take resources or actions) so it gets a lot of use in my games. You can accomplish a lot of poo poo with liberal use of climbing and strong jump capabilities.
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Sep 4, 2023 20:59
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Kyrosiris posted:The point was that even martials are exhibiting superhuman capabilities. Tripling the current "best athlete in the loving world"-level high jump is pretty supernatural to me, but then again I'm not the sort of boring-rear end grog that gets mad at martials doing cool poo poo, so Yes, I realize that. I also recognize that jumps real good is a pretty pathetic example of being superhuman when we are comparing to characters who can literally fly and conjure exploding balls of fire from their hands. It's a 'technically correct' argument that misses the entire point.
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Sep 4, 2023 20:59
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Kyrosiris posted:The point was that even martials are exhibiting superhuman capabilities. Tripling the current "best athlete in the loving world"-level high jump is pretty supernatural to me, but then again I'm not the sort of boring-rear end grog that gets mad at martials doing cool poo poo, so I wish all martials did even cooler impossible poo poo sooner tbh
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Sep 4, 2023 21:15
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Dick Burglar posted:Yes, I realize that. I also recognize that jumps real good is a pretty pathetic example of being superhuman when we are comparing to characters who can literally fly and conjure exploding balls of fire from their hands. It's a 'technically correct' argument that misses the entire point. idk if i saw someone leap 50 feet and bisect someone in a couple of seconds i'd they were pretty awesome
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Sep 4, 2023 21:24
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Jen X posted:Still, tell it to the flavor writers who did a hell of different job with spells (their flavor is commonly far more impressive sounding than their effects) and even some caster feats vs. lower level martial class features which are commonly "you're skilled at this mundane talent, and can now do a new thing". That seems really subjective. The low level feats for Bard and Wizard don't sound terribly impressive at all. Bard feats are mostly "you learn one more song, good job skippy" and wizard's are poo poo nobody else cares about like Eschew Materials which lets you throw away your component pouch, or meta magics that make your spells slightly better. Meanwhile the Inventor is over there with low level feats like Explosive Leap and Megaton Strike that sound loving sick. Even the fighter has plenty of crazy poo poo. If that is your fantasy stuff like Aggressive Block and Brutish Shove sound amazing. The thrown weapon feats are all feats of physics so sick they are basically magic. quote:Rebounding Toss Whaaaat? That's crazy. Flat out crazy. Mechanically it isn't that special, there are lots of similar abilities that help reduce multi attack penalties, but the flavor is crazy and that's definitely not something just anyone can do. That easily represents years of expertise. Crazy poo poo at level 2.
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Sep 4, 2023 21:45
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what are some good early level things a fighter could do to give it the same narrative weight as a wizard? maybe a feat or something like: Truth of Combat: Fighting someone gives you more insight into their character than a library's worth of books. Anyone you've dealt damage to in combat, or that has dealt damage to you, automatically fails on any attempt to deceive you.
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Sep 4, 2023 21:54
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Andrast posted:idk if i saw someone leap 50 feet and bisect someone in a couple of seconds i'd they were pretty awesome Absolutely. Superman started as a guy "“Faster than a speeding bullet! More powerful than a locomotive! Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound!” Later he leveled up to flying and shooting eyebeams, but he started out as just a strongman. The Flash runs real good. Black Widow, Green Arrow, and Hawkeye are just super good at fighting. The Incredible Hulk is a just a super smart guy who turns into a super strong guy, who has very stretchy pants and can't be permanently killed. In most stories Thor is merely a super good fighter who has a magic weapon. Loki is a cool caster dude, but is he really more cool than Hulk or Thor? Fighters start off as low-tier Superheros and quickly level into mid-tier superheros.
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Sep 4, 2023 22:00
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Impermanent posted:what are some good early level things a fighter could do to give it the same narrative weight as a wizard? maybe a feat or something like: This strikes me as kind of useless, unless you rules-lawyer it in a silly way. Aside from Feinting in combat, attempts use Deception against someone you're already engaged in combat with are pretty rare. Edit: Unless it applies to illusion effects as well as Deception checks? That could be handy, if situational.
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Sep 4, 2023 22:03
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Facebook Aunt posted:Rebounding Toss Real Daredevil vibes there
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Sep 4, 2023 22:14
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if you want a supernatural fighter those things exist, go play a champion, or an inventor, or a barbarian, or monk, or pick up a dedication, or whatever, there's a bunch of options. fighters own. this feels like a gripe that is being imported from 5e or something. please don't try to ruin the fighter by making them just a stronger version of other preexisting options and instead see that they are actually extremely cool and good and use the pretty substantial tools that are already there.
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Sep 4, 2023 22:20
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Dick Burglar posted:Mastery in a skill makes you Jump Good. big fuckin wow Yes, the sorcerer can fly for 4 minutes per day. Or they can teleport themselves to a spot they get see up to 4 times, 120 feet. Note that Superhuman Jumps For 1 Minute is a 3rd level spell, meaning the sorcerer can do that for 8 minutes.
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Sep 4, 2023 22:22
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Silver2195 posted:This strikes me as kind of useless, unless you rules-lawyer it in a silly way. Aside from Feinting in combat, attempts use Deception against someone you're already engaged in combat with are pretty rare. i guess i was thinking more of it as a way for the fighter to gain intel post-combat, to allow it to compete with some of the other ways the magic characters have for gaining knowledge about the situations they're in
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Sep 4, 2023 22:59
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Jon posted:Real Daredevil vibes there Bring out the Meteor Shield or Razor Disc from Treasure Vault and that'll fit Captain America too.
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Sep 4, 2023 23:24
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Impermanent posted:i guess i was thinking more of it as a way for the fighter to gain intel post-combat, to allow it to compete with some of the other ways the magic characters have for gaining knowledge about the situations they're in Oh, you mean taking prisoners and asking them questions? Yeah, that seems potentially powerful, actually.
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Sep 4, 2023 23:26
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Impermanent posted:i guess i was thinking more of it as a way for the fighter to gain intel post-combat, to allow it to compete with some of the other ways the magic characters have for gaining knowledge about the situations they're in One of the advantages of fighters is that they can go all in on strength to be good in combat. Con is nice, but that's true for everyone. There's not much point in a beefy boi going for more than a point or two of Dex. Which means without sacrificing combat effectiveness he can easily start with a +3 in Wis, Int or Cha. Wisdom: his expertise in perception means he starts with a +8 to Sense Motive checks. He can choose to invest in Religion and Nature for Recall Knowledge checks. And be a top notch field medic to boot. Intelligence: he starts with at least 9 trained skills and 4 languages, and is a hella smart guy with a great shot at a bunch of Recall Knowledge checks. Incredibly well read guy. Charisma: He's a born leader. Str + Cha = Superman. Around any kind of people he can Gather Information, make them friendly enough for a Request, Impersonate and Lie, or just Coerce the information out of them. And they won't be mad when the spell wears off because there was no spell, he's just hella charming. Nobody on his team will bother learning the Fear spell when he can just Demoralize every enemy they meet all day long for free. Charisma skills are crazy powerful. TL;DR: Being a big dumb fighter who is only good at fighting is a choice.
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Sep 4, 2023 23:33
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Andrast posted:You can accomplish a lot of poo poo with liberal use of climbing and strong jump capabilities. Could you give some examples? I want some inspiration here
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Sep 4, 2023 23:53
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Part of the problem of "what abilities could a Fighter have to shape the narrative like a Wizard can" is that the concept of the Fighter has always been overly broad in the first place. If you extrapolate more meaning from the class's features within the mechanics of the game then it becomes more accurate to refer to 'Fighters' as veteran soldiers/gladiators/etc, which are a little easier to design fitting abilities for without feeling like you're veering more into Barbarian or Rogue territory. Fighters don't get to be the expert veterans who can quick-draw flint between blows against a troll or demand to see a grunt's superior in the chain of command as class features though, because the class has been pigeon-holed hard into "swings sword very good". Even then it's largely relegated to just hit/damage bonuses, where are the feats that let you vault-jump with polearms/spears, grapnel-and-swing with flail weapons, or smash through walls like the Kool-Aid man with hammers? Oh right, that first one is actually in a non-Fighter archetype.
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Sep 5, 2023 01:46
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It's funny how many people are surprised by the soap in the adventurer's pack. With the beginner's box all 4 pregens start with soap. Why have I got soap?!?
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Sep 5, 2023 02:28
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Facebook Aunt posted:It's funny how many people are surprised by the soap in the adventurer's pack. With the beginner's box all 4 pregens start with soap. Why have I got soap?!? It's a subtle reminder to nerds that they should take hygiene seriously.
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Sep 5, 2023 02:44
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Facebook Aunt posted:It's funny how many people are surprised by the soap in the adventurer's pack. With the beginner's box all 4 pregens start with soap. Why have I got soap?!? need to make a copy of that key somehow
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Sep 5, 2023 03:07
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3 Action Economist posted:It's a subtle reminder to nerds that they should take hygiene seriously. it's a reminder of how fighters have little narrative control and few narrative hooks, of how they are forced to clean their clothes by hand unlike the perfidious wizard who can simply do it with a wave of their hand
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Sep 5, 2023 03:46
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Now I find myself wondering if prestidigitation cleaning is seen as the best cleaning, or if it's the opposite and there's a social stigma if you're a weirdo who never actually uses real soap.
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Sep 5, 2023 04:18
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It's probably the most efficient... eventually. That's after years of magic university and getting your doctorate so that you can do that.
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Sep 5, 2023 05:39
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The big question is why more wizards aren't just chilling in a big city running a laundromat
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Sep 5, 2023 05:49
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The soap is for the adventurer, not their clothes. Prestidigitation doesn't work on creatures.
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Sep 5, 2023 08:12
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Jen X posted:I wish all martials did even cooler impossible poo poo sooner tbh Personally I found our AV Fighter using sudden charge and smashing the ever-unliving poo poo out of a bunch of ghouls at level 3 to be extremely cool, even if he didn't have to bend the laws of the universe to do so.
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Sep 5, 2023 09:03
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Archetypes fix the issue anyway. If you want a gritty fighter that's just good at fighting, use your feats to just be better at that. If you want sword lasers, time clones, mind swords or just straight up casting (mostly utility) spells, grab an archetype. Even if you "waste" a few feats you'll still be pretty lethal in combat.
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Sep 5, 2023 11:57
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VikingofRock posted:Could you give some examples? I want some inspiration here Last session the barbarian in our Abomination Vault group (early spoilers) jumped and grabbed the river drake under the dock house in the early game, this kept it from flying and he grappled it down to the water. Our rogue basically treats every grid as a 3d space and always climbs when she can to shoot down her bow on people. I treat hanging from a ledge as greater cover for stealth purposes as long as the enemy isn't looking up at the person hanging. I let the barbarian with rapid mantel and quick jump to do a standing jump and pull himself up on a ledge in one action and reaction. He uses corpses as improvised weapons and throws them at other enemies for ranged weapons, if he positions to get above the enemy, I give him a bonus to damage because of gravity and to encourage him to keep using the environment. More mundane stuff is just like jumping over a whole room of traps because you can avoid the trip wires. Climbing is going to be best in a dungeon where there are a lot of walls to work with, but with good climbing you can usually find other ways down levels such as wells. Physical skills rely on the environment so much more than magical skills, so they do require a game that has a useable environment and a GM that's willing to let you use it.
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Sep 5, 2023 14:35
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yeah while i'm enjoying running abomination vaults and my group is having a blast it's definitely not great dungeon design. feels like a lot of square, small rooms with low ceilings and not a ton of fun terrain or features to work with. i dunno, we're about to start level 4, maybe stuff will pick up a bit.
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Sep 5, 2023 14:40
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