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Cythereal posted:Bad news is, the answer to this is 'Hold on, aren't the orcs supposed to now be a spiritual people sensitive to the natural world who are willing to work together with other races and not be assholes?' I think it's supposed to be that they can be spiritual people, as opposed to the previous two games where they couldn't even if they tried because of all the... everything. Not even just the stuff forced on them and out of their control, also all the stuff they chose to do. I can't fully conceptualize it into words but there is a difference, even from back in the 2000s, between Thrall's groups good intentions, Hellscream's bands inability to not want to fight, and the Old Horde's wish to go back to the old ways. life_source fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Sep 4, 2023 |
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Sep 4, 2023 18:28
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The writers don't actually think about religion, which leads to some real weird clashes to come. The next update has a trifecta of bad writing habits specifically. A mix of "literally all of this is fixed by the most basic communication," "we forgot religions exist so we kinda plowed through all our previous writing," and "we want big stakes but we want to move on immediately, so none of this matters in the long term." That last one has kinda long plagued Warcraft due to being a RTS. You have what are meant to be massive battles with massive casualty lists, and then everyone involved mostly just kinda moves on immediately beyond "argh, curse the Horde!" or "drat those Alliance!" Warcraft 3 was just when all of that started to happen immediately after the last one, and it became harder not to notice that none of these battles actually have much in the way of emotional stakes; that's reserved for big plot beats or cinematics, which is a problem that followed the series into WoW.
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Sep 4, 2023 18:39
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Horde 4: Things Fall Apart I do not like this mission, at all.  We open with a mysterious figure observing the Warsong camp.   Chieftain, there is something strange about these woods. It's too... quiet. Almost like we're being watched. Are you all afraid of spirits now? There is nothing here but ancient trees and shadow. ...Aren't the orcs supposed to be an ancient culture of shamanism and a deep reverence for the spirits of the natural world? Shouldn't they be the *most* credulous people on Azeroth about notions of spirits and places that should be left alone?We return to the figure observing the camp and suddenly there's a flurry of quiet whispers.  Still your tongue and get to work! The warchief's new settlement will require a great deal of lumber. This section of the forest must be cleared!I'll spoil the surprise now: we're dealing with the night elves at long last. The last, and in many ways the least of Reign of Chaos' playable races.  The night elves revere the forests as holy ground, not just the home of their people but a sacred charge to protect the forest entrusted to them at the dawn of their modern civilization.  After seeing them throughout the campaign, I finally get to control a Blademaster. Grom's an agility hero, not the strength hero you were probably expecting, and as we've seen their abilities are more about evasion and harassment than about up front damage until level 6. They're actually the most micromanagement and technical play heavy of the Horde's heroes, and accordingly far and away my least used in skirmish.  These lights circling the trees are in fact the night elf worker units: wisps, the souls of the night elf dead (maybe, Shadowlands kinda hosed with things in unclear ways) returned to the natural world. You see, the night elves don't need to chop down trees for lumber at all. Wisps instead simply gather wood like this, leaving the trees unharmed.   Grom, did you really have to tempt fate like that... I made mistakes. The night elves are understandably displeased that alien invaders are chopping down their homes to build their own city and lay claim to night elf land. Hostile Primitive Barbarian Native Race Counter: 5  Here's the fur bikini in the room: the night elves are matriarchal in true Amazon fashion, wear very little as a general rule as part of the noble savage thing, and almost their entire history from this point on consists of them getting butchered by the very stereotypically masculine orcs. This line by Grom is about the first and last time that the Horde will ever treat the night elves with anything resembling respect in Warcraft.  Gameplay-wise, they're elves. I don't really need to say anything else. They're fast, focused on ranged combat, and fragile.  There are a lot of night elf outposts dotting the map, and there's three important things to understand about night elf bases. One, those pools of water are priority targets. They have a recharging mana bar that can heal night elves and recharge their mana. Two, all night elf buildings that look like giant trees have melee attacks - these aren't buildings, but sentient treants of the forest aiding their allies, and yes they will punch enemies who get close. Three, those same treant buildings are in fact mobile, they can uproot and slowly move to new locations. They can't fly, unlike the Terrans in Starcraft, but mobility is a big thing for the night elves.  Let me reiterate, these giant trees are sentient nature spirits. And this purportedly spiritual, peaceful race that sought to live in harmony with the land is eagerly moving to kill them and dismember their corpses for construction material.  So yeah. We've rolled into somebody's home, started destroying it to build a city, and are slaughtering the sworn defenders of the land for the prizes inside. I honestly was wondering if I'd be more sympathetic to the Horde given that the Horde had no way to know the night elves even existed (since Cairne never got the memo that actually his people are ancient allies of the night elves in time to tell Thrall) and the night elves introduce themselves with indiscriminate violence. I am not.  I need another drink. Out of curiosity, Grom, did you spend any time in Revendreth? Nope. Also here, for some reason, is a town of goblins. Who somehow haven't been attacked by the night elves as far as the mission ever shows, and chalks up another race that could have told the orcs about the night elves. I'm starting to think Blizzard just didn't care.  Or maybe, as with the furbolg here, Blizzard was knowingly starting as they meant to go on. A proud, ancient people who have stood together with the other forces of the natural world against evil since time beyond reckoning. Perfect sidequest fodder to slaughter en masse! Hostile Primitive Barbarian Native Race Counter: 6  Taking and fortifying this clearing with the gold mine is a good idea: there's a lot of night elf bases, and all their attacks come through here, often at very inconvenient times. However, the Horde are probably the worst race in the entire game at static defense and the night elves' specialty, besides mobility, is massive damage at range. Not a fun combination.  By the way, one of these night elf bases - it's not clear which - is supposed to be the town of Astranaar in WoW. The first of many times Astranaar has been canonically burned down by the Horde.  Also, don't skimp on anti-air when facing night elves. Hippogryph riders are fast and dangerous.   Isidora, there's something I've been meaning to ask about your existence as a death knight, after your death. What is it? You said that the Four Horsemen of your timeline eventually destroyed themselves. We did. All four of us agreed. Finnall made arrangements to pass leadership of the Knights of the Ebon Blade to Lord Thassarian. Azeroth didn't still need you? Of course we were still needed. Azeroth always has a need of champions. Yet you... Heroism, Onyxia, is not a finite resource. To take all the world's burdens on yourself might be noble, but not heroic. One hero can create a thousand more. Acting like the world depends on you alone is sheer vanity. That's what friends and family, the people you serve, are for. So you don't *have* to be the hero all the time. I lived. I did good things the Bronze Dragonflight denied me in this primary timeline. I was deceived and used by the woman I loved. I died. I rose again. I did good things. I loved again after a fashion. And like my fellows, I grew tired of the fight again. There were others ready to pick up where we left off, Onyxia. New heroes for a new day, ready to fight new battles. The Codex even started pinpointing new candidates for the Four Horsemen before we departed the world forever. The tauren chief Cairne Bloodhoof, the leader. The fallen pandaren priestess Liu Flameheart, the penitent. Human spy Amber Kearney, the righteous. The troll warlord Mandokir, the fury. Azeroth was in good hands, and it was time for us to rest. Even in death you still find ways to surprise me. This is the only way I know how to be. I wouldn't love you if you were anything else. This part of the mission made me feel downright sick. Shredders are capable combat units, but they knock down a tree in one hit and carry 200 units of lumber at a time. They are a very efficient way to clear cut a forest.  There's a reason why, of all the things, the emotional impulse that finally pushed me over the edge into quitting the Horde, and then into quitting WoW for a few years, was the goblins joining the Horde.  There are some races and cultures in fiction that I simply cannot stomach, and Warcraft goblins are one of them. Oh well.
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Sep 5, 2023 01:21
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The Storm Finally, it's time to talk night elves. They've cropped up a lot in these lore essays over the course of this LP, and in fact I've talked about two groups descended from the Kaldorei Empire in detail already, the high elves and the naga. Yet, neither of these groups carry the name Kaldorei. So who were the night elves, and how did they come to be?  Originally, the night elves were a tribe of trolls who settled in the mountains of central Kalimdor. This tribe were known as the dark trolls, for their penchant for living underground and only venturing to the surface at night. Though nominally part of the great Zul Empire, the dark trolls were a breed apart due to their subterranean lifestyle and nocturnal habits. They were adept with magic, and sought to live in harmony with the benevolent spirits of nature while violently clashing with darker forces underground. When the dark trolls emerged onto the surface, it was typically only to raid for resources that they needed, at which point they would disappear again. Other tribes by and large despised the dark trolls for their hit-and-run tactics that often preyed on neighboring tribes, and in time the dark trolls migrated away from the rest of the Zul Empire and into the mountains of central Kalimdor. There, the dark trolls discovered the Well of Eternity, the pool of magic water that reached down into Azeroth's core to the gestating Titan asleep within the planet. The dark trolls quickly began to change as they settled in the mountains that protected the Well of Eternity, both mentally and physically. Within just a few generations, the dark trolls of the Zul Empire were no more. They had become something different, and far more adept with magic. They had become the first elves. From the Titan facilities surrounding the Well of Eternity, these ancient elves advanced their technological and magical sophistication by leaps and bounds. They abandoned all other loa in favor of a singular goddess they called Elune, a being they believed slumbered in the depths of the Well and was reflected in the light of the moon above. From inscriptions in the Titan facilities, the elves learned that the Titans had called this land 'Kalimdor,' their tongue for 'Land of Eternal Starlight.' As seemingly the first mortal race to discover the Well of Eternity, which was attended only by the servile constructs known as the Earthen and a handful of watchful dragons, these ancient elves decided that they had been specially chosen by Elune as the inheritors of the Titans and the Well of Eternity. In the Titan language, the elves called themselves the Kaldorei: the Children of the Stars.  The Kaldorei Empire is probably the single most powerful mortal nation to have ever existed on Azeroth. From their capital city of Elun'dris (renamed Zin-Azshari during the reign of Queen Azshara), the night elves ruled ancient Azeroth with a fist of enchanted iron. With magic empowered by the Well of Eternity, an understanding of craftsmanship derived from Titan facilities and the easily enslaved Earthen, and new magical powers based on their studies of the stars and void beyond, the night elves exploded out of the mountains of ancient Kalimdor without warning to the rest of the world, enslaving or destroying every civilization in their path. I've already discussed the Highborne at some length, the magically gifted aristocracy of the Kaldorei that eventually gave rise to Azshara, but there was another side to the Kaldorei Empire. Wherever there are the haves, there must also be the have-nots. Kaldorei society was strictly magocratic in nature. If you could not use magic, be it as a spellcaster or a martially talented spellblade (as the Kaldorei called their gish), you were a peasant, just one step above a non-elf slave. And as with any society, the peasants vastly outnumbered the aristocrats. These peasants of the Kaldorei Empire would be the progenitors of the night elves we know today. Without any ability to use magic, Kaldorei commoners had virtually no rights and existed purely at the sufferance of their mage lords. Where the Kaldorei aristocracy grew steadily more arrogant, xenophobic, and decadent, the Kaldorei peasantry began to fall back to older beliefs that still lingered from their species' days as the dark trolls: a belief of living in harmony with the natural world, taking no more than you needed and acting to uphold natural cycles of the land. The Kaldorei peasantry even began to trade and interact with other races on peaceful terms, most significantly the nomadic yaungol/tauren and the subterranean Earthen. Attempted rebellions against the Highborne did happen periodically, but the Kaldorei aristocrats universally responded to such uprisings with extreme and indiscriminate force, especially when such an uprising was lead by one of their own who came to identify with their people. The case of Farondis, Prince of Azsuna, was instructive: Queen Azshara not only shattered the entire land of Azsuna, but damned all the night elves who lived there to eternal undeath as shades, bound forever to their broken land and knowing exactly who did it and why.  When things finally came to a head, as Queen Azshara turned the Well of Eternity into a demonic portal for the Burning Legion, the result was one of the bloodiest and most destructive wars in Azeroth's history: the War of the Ancients. In part, this was a civil war among the Kaldorei, between those who shared Queen Azshara's vision and those who fought for the freedom and continued existence of Azeroth (as something other than a blasted wasteland). The civil uprising against Queen Azshara was lead by two key figures I'll discuss in more detail in the night elf campaign: Malfurion Stormrage and Tyrande Whisperwind. Malfurion had been a peasant, a nobody born to nobodies, until he had been chosen by powerful nature spirits as the first modern druid on Azeroth. Tyrande was Malfurion's opposite, a wealthy aristocrat from the great city of Suramar who had taken the socially acceptable career of priestess of Elune until she abandoned her family, home, and riches to join Malfurion and fight for what she believed Elune truly desired. Malfurion and Tyrande rallied a popular rebellion from within the Kaldorei Empire and were soon joined by other figures also worthy of later discussion, most notably the assassin Maiev Shadowsong and Malfurion's magically gifted brother Illidan. In part, this was a world war that shook Azeroth to its foundations. The tauren, Earthen, and furbolg all joined the war against the Burning Legion en masse, and it's been suggested that most other races that existed on Azeroth at the time played some part in the war, including the humans, pandaren, trolls, and gnomes. The War of the Ancients reached across much of Azeroth's surface at the time, though the true epicenter of the war would be the Kaldorei capital of Zin-Azshari and the Well of Eternity itself. All these races were joined by the great nature spirits of Azeroth, ancient animal spirits of immense power: the stag Malorne, the bird Aviana, the boar Agamaggan, the bears Ursoc and Ursol, and many more. Most famously, Cenarius himself joined the battle, a being said to be the son of the goddess Elune and worshiped by the Kaldorei as a demigod who had taught Malfurion and the other first druids of Azeroth. The Dragonflights, too, joined the war, to tragic result: this was where Neltharion gave in to his madness and revealed the Dragon Soul, butchering the Blue Dragonflight and setting in motion events I've discussed in all dragon-related lore essays. Oh and you'd better believe there were a bunch of time travelers involved in this, too, including both WoW PCs and book protagonists - including an orc, who so impressed the night elves with his strength and skill that Malfurion and Tyrande promised to remember him and honor his people. You can guess how often Broxigor comes up in WoW. In the end, we know what happened. Azshara and Sargeras were defeated, and the world itself was torn asunder, creating the face of Azeroth as we know it today.  As for the night elves, when the dust settled nothing remained of their empire but bad memories and mistakes hidden behind magical shields that they could not break. Malfurion, Tyrande, and their followers had meant to save their people. Instead, they'd shattered the world and consigned their civilization to oblivion. Cenarius, the Father of the Forest, and Alexstrasza the Dragonqueen, approached the surviving night elves and warned them that, horrific as the war had been, the Legion would still be out there waiting for another chance. Most of the surviving night elves, having lost everything but each other in the war, agreed to forsake any notion of rebuilding their empire and instead dedicate themselves to protecting Azeroth from the Legion's return, and any other malign force that might threaten their world. At the heart of their charge was a newly born tree called Nordrassil, what would come to be called the World Tree, at the peak of Mount Hyjal. Some of the survivors did not agree to this charge, chiefly what was left of the Highborne caste, and departed. These remnants would scatter across the broken world, becoming the high elves of Quel'thalas among others. For the rest, the tale of their covenant, what they gained and what they lost, is for another time. But they have remained lurking in the forests of Kalimdor ever since, sworn to protect Mount Hyjal from any intruders and prevent the fate of their empire from ever repeating. One consequence of their covenant is immortality: many of the same night elves who fought in the War of the Ancients are still alive today. Or at least they were until the Horde came along. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Sep 5, 2023 |
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Sep 5, 2023 01:22
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You know, seeing it on screen there, I'll give them this - the orcs are reasonably fearful of the potent spirits of the forest. It's just Grom that doesn't give a poo poo and is browbeating them into logging anyway. Hellscreams really haven't been good for the Horde at any point. I guess if the orcs had been in the habit of being more afraid of the spirits than they were of each other they wouldn't have ended up on Azeroth to begin with.
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Sep 5, 2023 01:44
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In all fairness as well to the whole "The Orcs should care more about clearcutting this forest" thing... There is a reasonably clear divide between Shamanism and Druidism; Druidism deals with the Wilds, the Forests, poo poo like that, while Orcish Shamanism deals with Elemental Spirits. Earth, Fire, Wind, Water. And the Shamans tend to be pretty good at convincing the Elemental Spirits to overlook them taking resources from the land, or otherwise giving boons for the sake of providing for their people. As for this mission... Literally the only thing that has meaningfully changed in this mission is Grom himself getting access to the "Pillage" upgrade in Reforged, which allows Peons, Grunts, Raiders, and now Grom himself to recover a small amount of resources for attacking enemy structures, based on the cost of the structure and how much damage they deal.
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Sep 5, 2023 01:50
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BlazetheInferno posted:Literally the only thing that has meaningfully changed in this mission is Grom himself getting access to the "Pillage" upgrade in Reforged, which allows Peons, Grunts, Raiders, and now Grom himself to recover a small amount of resources for attacking enemy structures, based on the cost of the structure and how much damage they deal. I guess it appeared in last mission too, but they also changed his unit name to Grommash. Was this a Warlords of Draenor thing, to insist on calling him that? It's kind of weird to be so insistent on changing a popular, established name for a posthumous character.
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Sep 5, 2023 01:57
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It is also worth noting that there likely are Orcs who revere forest spirits, indeed many here are questioning until Grom pushes them to act. But the Warsong lived on the plains, their spirits were that of the wind, and grass, fire and ancestors. Also on Draenor the trees eat you and walk around planning to mind control you into submission. Draenor was not a gentle birthplace for Orcs, and I think that shapes their methods of belief and fairh around the very real and dangerous elements of Draenor. I wonder if the Orcs would have slowed down had the nature of Wisps been explained to them, they believe in ancestral guidance above elemental spirits. That was how Ner'zhul got tricked after all. The Grommash name thing is partially about later lore, only his friends have the right to call him Grom. Ultimately, the Horde are not presented as good or in the right here. But Grom finding the Night Elves cool is part of an old AU idea I had once, I might discuss more when we finish up the next mission. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Sep 5, 2023 |
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Sep 5, 2023 01:58
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You can really understand why the Night Elves attacked instantly and without warning on the grounds that the Orcs just don't respect life. After all, when have they ever in 10,000 years met a race that CUT DOWN TREES FOR WOOD?!
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Sep 5, 2023 03:50
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So like I said before, three big problems here. First, this entire map stops when the Night Elves go "hey." And say or do like, anything at all, beyond immediate arrows. Which goes to the problem with the trees - there's absolutely no reason the orcs should believe they're anything more then Weird Trees. Maybe sometimes trees just do this on this continent! We've heard of trees doing it in other places! And like, yeah, at any point in time, any one could tell the orcs - but they don't, for no real reason. But second, what IS going on with the Horde religion? Your typical "noble savage" is if anything all about one-ness with nature (as opposed to the more "civilized" peoples). And while you can argue that there's a difference between "druidism" and "shamanism" in-universe, that difference had to be written in. My thought here is that the night elves existing meant orcs had to lose a love of nature - each group in Warcraft 3 has very clearly defined genres and stereotypes, and you really don't see overlap between them. Both night elves and orcs being the "nature peoples" wouldn't match, so weird distinctions between "druidism" and "shamanism" get made. But like, even beyond that, Grom HAS shamans with him, who should be able to tell him "hey no the spirits are telling us that there's Some poo poo going on here." I think the writers simply just kinda forgot what the Orc religion was supposed to be here, or how it would interact with them. This just kinda goes back to that first problem though - this plot rests a bit too hard on Grom knowing nothing, and it ends up feeling artificial because it's so forced. Ultimately, as others have said, the orcs are not being presented as being in the right here. Getting the goblins involved is meant to help seal that this is a real bad idea. Sadly, it's just...kind of a dumb plot element. Because third, there aren't really stakes here. The game doesn't treat this as BUTCHERING THE ELVES AND HACKING APART LIVING AND THINKING BEINGS FOR WOOD! It's an RTS; you're killing some units. That's about it. But here's a fun fact about it: when this map was initially thought up, there was going to be a bonus objective where you get all wood needed without killing any night elf forces, much as the previous map was originally going to have a bonus objective where you don't kill any humans. EDIT: Sanguinia posted:You can really understand why the Night Elves attacked instantly and without warning on the grounds that the Orcs just don't respect life. After all, when have they ever in 10,000 years met a race that CUT DOWN TREES FOR WOOD?! Yeah this just goes back to how artificial it feels. Too many dumb things stacked on top of each other. And hey, if nothing else, the night elves attacking on sight is pretty much how everyone treated the murlocs and centaur and however else. At this point I think that's just how things go in the setting. Frankly, Thrall talking to Cairne is the first time that's happened between any two figures who didn't already know each other in the entire game. ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Sep 5, 2023 |
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Sep 5, 2023 04:03
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As a teen I often got the impression Blizzard approached the writing in Warcraft 3 a lot like the way an RTS approaches scale other stuff; broad and abstracted strokes that are meant to evoke and represent, rather than actually literally depict, what is going on. A settlement isn't a few buildings, it's a proper town. A battle isn't probably five or six dudes on either side, it's a proper battle. A unit represents a group of dudes, etc. But then WoW comes out and is like 'lol no this is literally how it goes down' and so on and so forth. Not to mention all the baggage that comes with the knowledge of who and what Blizzard are really like. Like if you assume we're getting the Cliff's Notes version of how the first contact between the Orcs and the various peoples of Kalimdor played out, I feel like these missions kind of work. "The Orcs hit it off well with the Tauren, but cultural misunderstandings led to tragic consequences as they met with the Night Elves, misunderstandings rooted primarily but not exclusively in differing views on ethical resource extraction and the nature and role of the spirits in daily life." or whatever. Also as others have pointed out, I think it's telling that the Orcs are largely reverent or at least spooked and giving credence to things. It's just Grom who's all FULL STEAM AHEAD BOYOS! Which is I think part of the deeper problem. There's the story Blizzard is trying to tell us about Grom and the story they are actually telling us about Grom, and these are not the same story.
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Sep 5, 2023 04:22
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Is the story they want to tell Grom is a regressive fuckup that refuses to learn or change with the times. To such a serious nature that he's been around for 2 missions and started as many wars? But the most important part of this mission is this guy: Because I will never not laugh at how comically wrong he is given the existence of banshees and wisps, which he can very definitively hack out of existence with said axe. FoolyCharged fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Sep 5, 2023 |
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Sep 5, 2023 04:52
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Nope, which is my point. They do an excellent job of accidentally telling the story about a regressive but charismatic rear end in a top hat who is lionized by those around him even as he drags them down to ruin and embodies much of what they claim to hate.
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Sep 5, 2023 04:59
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Grom's general story is one of someone who very much wants to do right by his people, but has lost sight of what that means long ago and repeats his mistakes over and over. At his best, he was fighting to free the Orcs from Alliance Camps, at his worst he attacks the Alliance without provocation just for existing. He respects powerful warriors (his response to the Night Elves) but is stubborn and violent whenever he gets a whiff of combat (his response to them attacking). Something he has never learnt to control (or lost control of due to drinking the demon blood on Draenor). The tragedy of Grom is he's desperate to make amends for dooming the Orcs (he drank the blood first), but all he knows is violence and glory in combat. So he makes the exact same mistake forever and never learns the lesson he needs. He doesn't know how to backdown from a fight, even fights that are only in his head. Partially I imagine retroactively is caused by the backstory they developed for him in WoD. Where the Warsong were more or less in a constant war for freedom and survival against the Ogre Empire of Draenor (compared to most of the other clans dealing with less sentient and existential threats). Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Sep 5, 2023 |
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Sep 5, 2023 05:08
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the night elves: proud competitors with the Nerubians for being Patient Zero of blizzard writing a cool idea for a race and then not doing anything with it
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Sep 5, 2023 05:08
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ProfessorCirno posted:But here's a fun fact about it: when this map was initially thought up, there was going to be a bonus objective where you get all wood needed without killing any night elf forces, much as the previous map was originally going to have a bonus objective where you don't kill any humans. drat, that would have owned. FoolyCharged posted:Is the story they want to tell Grom is a regressive fuckup that refuses to learn or change with the times. To such a serious nature that he's been around for 2 missions and started as many wars? He tries to learn and change but fails, which is fine. Then he shrugs and does what he does best, which is hack apart the problem in front of him, which just creates many, many more problems.
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Sep 5, 2023 05:08
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This mission is Grom intending to prove to Thrall he can be better, he was sent to collect wood and that's what he is going to do, and then rad elf warrior women attack him and he suddenly has a reason to fight a powerful new foe who attacked him first from his perspective. Something Thrall would surely understand given he was sent to collect wood and not fight the Alliance. He should have backed out and returned to Thrall after the first attacks, he doesn't because he is too stubborn and bloodthirsty to consider retreat as an option ever. As far as the Night Elves, they've found fel corrupted alien invaders cutting down their sacred forests, it actually is perfectly reasonable from their perspective to not ask questions. The only possible issue is if somehow an Orc time travelled back to the War of the Ancients and allied with them so they would know that these are Orcs and not the first wave of a new demonic invasion force. Edit: This could have been avoided a few ways, but there's reasonable explanations for most reasons it was not, as far as Warcraft 3 presents. It is only later lore changes and additions that make things less "clean". Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Sep 5, 2023 |
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Sep 5, 2023 05:14
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life_source posted:drat, that would have owned. in a version of this that tells the story they're trying to tell a little better, Grom originally orders a fighting retreat, then when his forces are being ambushed on their way out (because no poo poo the Night Elves aren't going to let these fuckers leave the woods alive) he orders a counter-charge, it succeeds, and high on the thrill of having his foe on the run again for the first time in a hot minute he cuts loose. it's not even that hard to make work with Night Elf characterization! establish that the local priestess of the moon is just as eager to kill outsiders as Grom is, and you can give him a line about "...I do not know that voice, but I know those words. Either we die today, or she does, my warriors. SHOW THEM etc etc etc." play Grom as the alcoholic who has been pressured into having a drink for the first time in years and is still in the honeymoon period of his relapse. this could be done well! as is, well, the script says the Orcs fight the Night Elves, so, uh. here's the orcs fighting the Night Elves.
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Sep 5, 2023 05:28
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I actually think, at this point, the biggest failing of Warcraft 3 from a campaign design perspective is that it has 4 10 mission (sorta) campaigns for every faction that happen in a row. It should have instead had 1 40-50 mission narrative campaign where which faction you play as rotates per mission. Maybe even with an option to play as the "enemy" faction once you beat the mission for some of them. The main issue with this design is you would still backload the Night Elves with the current story, but you could have the High Elves use the Night Elf Mechanics with a different flavour. Off the top of my head, all the Ancients could be Mobile Arcane Buildings. Moonwells replaced with Lightwells drawing from the Sunwell. You admittedly lose some of Arthas' story (arguably the best told story in Warcraft 3) but you can still follow his journey. Heck you could easily just alternate Thrall and Arthas until the Undead and Night Elves make sense to play. But one way this would really help, is you could present stuff like what is going on here in this mission from both sides. Imagine if instead of playing as Grom, this mission was used to tutorialise Night Elves as a hit and run guerilla faction. You have to harass and stop these invaders cutting down your forests with a basic scouting force whilst your message of the Legion's return (false) is sent to your superior. Eidt: this also means the player isn't busted back to basics 25 missions into the story as they are now. You could intro the Orc basics with Thrall vs the camps, move into Arthas vs Orcs, then Undead subverting Arthas, and lastly maybe even do a Night Elves in Kalimdor patrolling the woods for fel tainted furbolgs or something as some foreshadowing for what Thrall will find in Kalimdor. Then just follow whichever faction makes sense to tell the full story of the third war. This even lets you say, follow Jaina's story by picking her version of events after doing the "main narrative" campaign and unlocking faction choice for missions. Obviously when Warcraft was being made such a thing would have been a massive undertaking, but they were "reforging" Warcraft 3, and absolutely could have made "The Third War" campaign rather than redo the original whilst still keeping all the missions from the original (and maybe even adding new ones to flesh out later lore details). Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Sep 5, 2023 |
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Sep 5, 2023 05:58
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the night elves: proud competitors with the Nerubians for being Patient Zero of blizzard writing a cool idea for a race and then not doing anything with it I'm still salty that we never got the original plans for Azjol-Nerub in WotLK. The underground zone that we DID eventually get was... far less interesting.
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Sep 5, 2023 05:59
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To further my thoughts, the defense of Quel'thelas with a custom faction mixed between Night Elves and Alliance would be really cool, and you could use it to sell the idea of an updated map editor system that let you make factions from scratch. Reforged could have been a platform for a resurgent RTS from Blizzard. You could have sold "The Troll Wars" DLC and such as new mission packs going over historical scenarios, similar to Age of Empires. The story factions don't even have to be balanced because you can just, have only the original 4 in multiplayer unless you're playing custom games. The Scourge vs the Nerubians where you play both sides is another potential DLC option. Or even, the War of the Ancients. The Black Empire vs Titan Forces (Titan Forces would be a cross between Alliance and Undead mechanics, in that you would be spreading Order like the undead spread blight, to stabilise the land for your Alliance style construction). You wouldn't need a full 4 heroes per faction in campaigns that you sold either, just one or two. Controlling a Titan Watcher as the "Order Hero" for example. A redesigned living Nerubian King, King Rastakhan maybe for some sort of Zul Empire DLC. Heck, you could even do DLC of World of Warcraft events and you know, show the actual canon for them. The War of the Spider where you pick Horde (showing off how the Forsaken add to their wartime abilities) and Alliance (Night Elves with human etc backup and additions). Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Sep 5, 2023 |
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Sep 5, 2023 06:06
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Lord_Magmar posted:It is also worth noting that there likely are Orcs who revere forest spirits, indeed many here are questioning until Grom pushes them to act. But the Warsong lived on the plains, their spirits were that of the wind, and grass, fire and ancestors. Yeah, this is the main reason that I have no real issue with this mission. The orcs need wood. There is a forest. They go to the forest to chop wood. The forest is creepy, but whatever, they're there for wood. Then they get attacked without any warning (but with plenty of provocation). They fight back and continue to collect wood. They meet goblins who have very efficient clearcutting machines and will sell them to the orcs for the small price of killing some hostiles. So the orcs do that to get access to better woodcutting technology. The humans that the orcs have been living with and fighting with since they arrived in Azeroth cut down trees and use them for buildings. And while they didn't see them do this, the Scourge does the same thing. Logging isn't a foreign concept, nor is it against their religion in any way. If the orcs knew that the night elves existed, and sent a diplomat or an envoy instead of Grom, then the two factions might have gotten along, or at least have set up a non-aggression pact. It's also worth noting that there really hasn't been a whole lot of wood available for the orcs anywhere else. The barrens, true to their name, don't have a lot of wood. Durotar has very little wood. The Tauren homeland has very little wood. And honestly, a good chunk of the blame goes to the night elves for not chilling the gently caress out long enough to ask the orcs to stop logging, or, you know, talking to them as they approached the forest before the logging ever started. Again, this is pretty much the only major wood source in the region, so naturally people are going to go there when they need wood.
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Sep 5, 2023 06:59
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Lord_Magmar posted:It should have instead had 1 40-50 mission narrative campaign where which faction you play as rotates per mission. dawn of war 3 attempted this and it sucked pretty badly because each new mission disrupted the groove you had previously established
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Sep 5, 2023 07:07
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And it's not like orcs' spiritual/shamanistic religion have any connection with trees in general over Warcraft 1/2/3. We've already cut down countless trees as the orcs without issue. Why would cutting down trees be a spiritual problem now, even if some of the guys are feeling kind of spooked about the wisps at the start of the level?
gohuskies fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Sep 5, 2023 |
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Sep 5, 2023 07:12
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Dirk the Average posted:And honestly, a good chunk of the blame goes to the night elves for not chilling the gently caress out long enough to ask the orcs to stop logging, or, you know, talking to them as they approached the forest before the logging ever started. Again, this is pretty much the only major wood source in the region, so naturally people are going to go there when they need wood. A lot of passionate words have been written over the years about how the Night Elves were justified in not chilling the gently caress out based on a thing that someone says in the next mission, which we can talk about when it gets there. In THIS mission that someone isn't here, and the people who ARE here could not be more clear. They watched the Orcs chopping down trees and then decided to murder them to the last man for chopping down those trees without offering any kind of warning or ultimatum. No other considerations for their behavior are mentioned. As Cirno said, its a purely artificial conflict, and frankly its only going to get worse. And then it gets even more worse in World of Warcraft. In a less stupid world with less sloppy writers and less very specific design imperatives vis a vis encouraging factionalism and world PVP, WoW could have really easily launched with the Undead in the Alliance and the Night Elves in the Horde, and it probably would have made a hell of a lot more sense and led to a less stupid greater franchise arc. Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Sep 5, 2023 |
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Sep 5, 2023 07:15
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Kith posted:dawn of war 3 attempted this and it sucked pretty badly because each new mission disrupted the groove you had previously established Dawn of War 3 is bad for a lot of reasons though, not just the narrative structure. You could probably have at least made all of the faction storylines available from the start and maybe locked progression (say the Undead mission line not letting you go past a certain point until Arthas does the thing). If you were willing to build early missions for the Night Elves/Undead. I'll agree that it isn't wholly thought out, and it might not have worked, but it probably can't have been worse than what Warcraft 3 Reforged actually did release as. I do think "reverse mission" options would've been cool regardless, in terms of fleshing out lore/setting details (like getting to defend Quel'thelas instead of attack it). Also the custom editor showcase and additional DLC campaigns would've been a pretty impressive selling point for why anyone should want Warcraft 3 Reforged over the original (which as it stands, the only reason to get Reforged over the original is that the original is literally unavailable due to reforged).
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Sep 5, 2023 07:35
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Despite his squabbles, Grom is also not going to disobey a direct order from Thrall to harvest lumber. Putting aside the fact that Thrall didn't know the night elves existed and would probably have given the mission differently if he did, Grom just saw it as 'Warchief wants a settlement, I'm giving him a settlement no matter what I have to do to get it done.'
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Sep 5, 2023 07:42
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And Grom just got admonished by Thrall in the previous mission. He's not going to go back and go "Thrall, I could not get lumber because we got beaten back by Elves". He wants to make up for his previous failure.
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Sep 5, 2023 07:54
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Lord_Magmar posted:The only possible issue is if somehow an Orc time travelled back to the War of the Ancients and allied with them so they would know that these are Orcs and not the first wave of a new demonic invasion force.
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Sep 5, 2023 10:48
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Also as for cutting down sapient tree people Draenor has those... they are REALLY REALLY HOSTILE and want to infect everyone they can get a hold of. For an orc, if a tree starts to punch at you, you get to killing it before it turns you into a zombie with a flower growing out of your skull.
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Sep 5, 2023 11:24
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One does have to wonder how differently this situation would have gone if Thrall was here instead. Or if Vol'jin was sent alongside Grom to keep an eye on him. You know, someone with a more level head than Grom who also had the authority to tell him to knock it off.
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Sep 5, 2023 11:25
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probably the same way it turned out when a similar tactic was tried in the future
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Sep 5, 2023 11:34
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In azeroth you chop down trees. In Draenor, trees chop you down.
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Sep 5, 2023 11:47
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My take on this mission is that it started as a reasonably understandable premise for these two factions to start fighting, but there are already some factors that don't make sense from the outset. The big one being why are the goblins here still alive? The night elves attacked the orcs for taking regular rear end axes to the trees, these goblins with their giant rear end shredder machines should've already been obliterated by the night elves. It's not like it'd be easy to hide those machines, and the goblins have less combat presence than the orcs. On the Orc Blademaster in gameplay context, it's basically my least favorite hero. It falls under the category of way too much micro effort for the output you get from it. It's trying to be a ninja-assassin type deal that relies on a hero's generally lacking physical attacks. Frozen Throne made the orcs so much more viable for my own play by simply giving me more options that could replace the Blademaster. In general though, I don't like the Agility melee heroes, so eh.
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Sep 5, 2023 11:51
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Sanguinia posted:After all, when have they ever in 10,000 years met a race that CUT DOWN TREES FOR WOOD?! Honestly, by all evidence? They legitimately haven't, beyond races that they were already predisposed to be hostile to like trolls and murlocs. The furbolg seem to use naturally fallen over giant logs to make their homes. Harpies just don't build like that at all. Centaurs and quilboars don't seem to ever come this far north. The night elves were probably going "Oh great, a new race of creeps to punch for gold." If the orcs are within their rights to immediately slaughter new races they meet like the quilboar and centaur because they don't like what they're doing, are the night elves not logically entitled to the same actions by that morality? Or is the entire thing bullshit?
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Sep 5, 2023 12:27
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The answer to all of these questions and more is that Blizzard did not think about them at all because this is a RTS game and the plot was written as a barely-there excuse for a bunch of units to stab each other to death and blow up the buildings that made them.
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Sep 5, 2023 12:32
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Keldulas posted:On the Orc Blademaster in gameplay context, it's basically my least favorite hero. It falls under the category of way too much micro effort for the output you get from it. It's trying to be a ninja-assassin type deal that relies on a hero's generally lacking physical attacks. Frozen Throne made the orcs so much more viable for my own play by simply giving me more options that could replace the Blademaster. In general though, I don't like the Agility melee heroes, so eh.
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Sep 5, 2023 13:09
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Wasn't the blademaster overwhelmingly the best orc hero in skirmishes until it got nerfed in reforged? Was there something weird going on with that? I don't play skirmishes and never have so I've no clue but I do remember hearing that a few times Fajita Queen fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Sep 5, 2023 |
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Sep 5, 2023 13:17
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Fajita Queen posted:Wasn't the blademaster overwhelmingly the best orc hero in skirmishes until it got nerfed in reforged? Was there something weird going on with that?
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Sep 5, 2023 13:29
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| # ? Jun 10, 2024 09:50 |
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I think Blizzard just struggles with the question they invite of "So when is it okay to react to another race's existence with indiscriminate genocidal violence?" And the answer boils down to 'When that other race isn't playable.' It's just lovely writing from a lovely company.
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Sep 5, 2023 13:30
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