Ukraine: The Aristoblyats

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Internet VFW > Ukraine: The Aristoblyats

Vahakyla: May 3, 2013

Icon Of Sin posted:

It�s such a clusterfuck that I don�t think anyone even knows. I think the US 82nd was originally a light infantry division, and they (along with the 101st) got chosen to be AIRBORNE!! in WWII (when it was a new thing). They could�ve been consecutive at one point, but between founding, disbanding, and reflagging (changing the name and keeping the personnel intact) it�s a massive clusterfuck. That�s before you even get into the regiment system, which a lot of units still retain up to the battalion level. For example�

1st brigade of the 25th infantry division had (when I was there):

1st battalion, 5th infantry regiment
1st battalion, 24th infantry regiment
3rd battalion, 21st infantry regiment
5th squadron, 1st cavalry regiment

It�s a goddamned mess.

Nah, it makes sense.

Regiments are not, anymore, units of any actual organization, so they just carry their regimental heritage and tradition and insignia. To preserve that, and to prevent the regimental tradition dying if one unit shuts down, the regiment gets splintered into tiny, usually battalion sized, units that belong to actual units.

Like the 503rd Infanty Regiment, regimental elements have been assigned to the 2nd Infantry Division, the 11th Airborne Division, the 24th Infantry Division, 25th Infantry Division, the 82nd Airborne Division, 101st Airborne Division, and the 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team.

Today only the two battalions, 1-503 and 2-503 are active in the 173rd, all other battalions deactivated.

Essentially the regimental system is a shadow organization of purely tradition behind the current unit formations that do not have any actual practical meaning. It makes sense once you understand how it works.

The 75th Ranger Regiment is the only actually administrative regiment in the US Army.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 00:31

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 02:32

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Vahakyla posted:

Today only the two battalions, 1-503 and 2-503 are active in the 173rd, all other battalions deactivated.

Essentially the regimental system is a shadow organization of purely tradition behind the current unit formations that do not have any actual practical meaning. It makes sense once you understand how it works.

The 75th Ranger Regiment is the only actually administrative regiment in the US Army.

It only makes sense if your point of view starts with �pageantry is more important than creating shared understanding and simplicity in military operations.�

Heraldry departments employ GS Historians who will pore over records to recommend what combination of numbers and letters might kind of sort of make sense to assign to a brand new unit with a new weapon system, using the most tenuous academic ties to a unit that has not been active since 1874 or something and was armed with a mishmash of rifles, a donkey, and two flat-bottomed canal boats.

Also units are not deactivated. They are inactivated. You deactivate a bomb.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 00:44

A.o.D.: Jan 15, 2006

There's also an opsec reason to use nonsequential numbering for unit designations. If you stand up or draw down a unit in wartime (about the only time this wouldn't be accompanied by a press release in the US) The new number doesn't instantly indicate a change in force structure. At least that's the theory. With the drawn down nature of the current force structure it's pretty easy to keep track of the major formations if your job is to study US capabilities.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 00:46

PurpleXVI: Oct 30, 2011; Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Kaiser Schnitzel posted:

As far as I can tell there is no real rhyme or reason to it. Some of the numbers seem to be inherited from successor units to Soviet formations, some of them seem to be sort of sequential? There are 79th, 80th, and 81st brigades in the Ukrainian Air Assault Forces, but also a 95th Air Assault brigade. and the 81st is an air mobile brigade not Air Assault, so I have no idea. All those predate the 2022 invasion, but the 82nd is an entirely new formation.There is a 1st Special Purpose brigade, a 1st Tank Brigade, a 3rd Separate Assault Brigade and a 3rd Tank brigade, even a 4th, 5th and 17th Tank brigades, but no 2nd tank brigade that I can find.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_battle_for_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Ukrainian_forces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_of_the_Armed_Forces_of_Ukraine#Joint_Forces_Command

If there's no rhyme or reason to it, you'd think there'd be far more 69th and 420th brigades.

Thanks to everyone who had an answer!

# ? Sep 6, 2023 00:47

EasilyConfused: Nov 21, 2009; one strong toad

Vahakyla posted:

Nah, it makes sense.

Regiments are not, anymore, units of any actual organization, so they just carry their regimental heritage and tradition and insignia. To preserve that, and to prevent the regimental tradition dying if one unit shuts down, the regiment gets splintered into tiny, usually battalion sized, units that belong to actual units.

Like the 503rd Infanty Regiment, regimental elements have been assigned to the 2nd Infantry Division, the 11th Airborne Division, the 24th Infantry Division, 25th Infantry Division, the 82nd Airborne Division, 101st Airborne Division, and the 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team.

Today only the two battalions, 1-503 and 2-503 are active in the 173rd, all other battalions deactivated.

Essentially the regimental system is a shadow organization of purely tradition behind the current unit formations that do not have any actual practical meaning. It makes sense once you understand how it works.

The 75th Ranger Regiment is the only actually administrative regiment in the US Army.

Seems like they would be better off converting the regiments to battalions instead of creating a giant mess like this. :shrug:

mlmp08 posted:

Also units are not deactivated. They are inactivated. You deactivate a bomb.

From everything I've read in GIP comparing units to bombs is pretty accurate.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 00:53

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

mlmp08 posted:

It only makes sense if your point of view starts with �pageantry is more important than creating shared understanding and simplicity in military operations.�

Heraldry departments employ GS Historians who will pore over records to recommend what combination of numbers and letters might kind of sort of make sense to assign to a brand new unit with a new weapon system, using the most tenuous academic ties to a unit that has not been active since 1874 or something and was armed with a mishmash of rifles, a donkey, and two flat-bottomed canal boats.

Also units are not deactivated. They are inactivated. You deactivate a bomb.

Ukraine did some of that history digging recently, with units receiving designations related to history of Ukrainian People's Republic, so, say, the 72nd Mechanized is simultaneously named after WW2 72nd Guards Rifle Division and nicknamed after a UNR cavalry regiment...

# ? Sep 6, 2023 00:57

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

A.o.D. posted:

There's also an opsec reason to use nonsequential numbering for unit designations. If you stand up or draw down a unit in wartime (about the only time this wouldn't be accompanied by a press release in the US) The new number doesn't instantly indicate a change in force structure. At least that's the theory. With the drawn down nature of the current force structure it's pretty easy to keep track of the major formations if your job is to study US capabilities.

The US just publishes lists of its units and forces and details exactly how many tanks and IFVs it is paying to maintain. This goes out in public congressional record, etc. And they simplify the counts, so that they aren't presenting congress with a list of nonsensical unit names. That doesn't mean there can't be secret programs or that they publish every capability or munitions counts or the like, but the US isn't being precious about how many BCTs exist.

On regimental history, it can get pretty goofy even for the very big-name and famous ones.

quote:

On 3 March 1791, Congress added to the Army "The Second Regiment of Infantry" from which today's First Infantry draws its heritage. In September of that year, elements of it and the original 1st Infantry Regiment (today's 3rd United States Infantry Regiment (The Old Guard)), with sizable militia complements, all under command of General Arthur St. Clair, were sent against the Native American nations of the Ohio country.

St. Clair served as a major general in the Continental Army and was now appointed "General in Chief," superseding the first commander of the regiment, Josiah Harmar. Fighting against the Miamis, St. Clair's soldiers were untrained, ill-equipped, underfed, and sickly. This resulted in a disastrous defeat in which the entire U.S. Army suffered a loss of about 700 killed and some 300 wounded out of a total strength of around 1,700, with some 100 civilians killed and 50 wounded as well.[1]

Let's take a look at the regimental history of the 52nd Air Defense Artillery Regiment. Today, there is one battalion under this regimental affiliation.

quote:

Organized 22 July 1917 in the Regular Army at Fort Adams, Rhode Island, as the 7th Provisional Regiment, Coast Artillery Corps (CAC), from units of the Coast Defenses of Long Island Sound, Eastern New York, Southern New York, Narragansett Bay, and Port Royal Sound.[2][3]

Moved overseas August 1917. Redesignated 5 February 1918 as the 52nd Artillery (Coast Artillery Corps). While in France the unit was attached to the 30th Brigade, CAC, and armed with a variety of French- and British-made railway guns, including French 320 mm weapons. Returned to the US January 1919, moved to Fort Eustis, Virginia.[3]

In August 1921, the other railway artillery regiments were inactivated, and the 52nd was reorganized into 1st Battalion (12-inch guns), 2nd Battalion (12-inch mortars), and 3rd Battalion (8-inch M1888 guns).[2]

(3d Battalion inactivated 16 May 1921 at Fort Eustis, Virginia; activated 18 August 1921 at Fort Eustis, Virginia; 1st Battalion inactivated 1 August 1922 at Fort Eustis, Virginia)

Redesignated 1 July 1924 as the 52nd Coast Artillery Regiment.

In 1931 Batteries C and E and HHB, 2nd Battalion were posted at Fort Hancock, New Jersey.[2]

Battery D inactivated 1 November 1938 at Fort Monroe, Virginia; Battery F inactivated 1 February 1940 at Fort Monroe, Virginia; Batteries D and F activated 8 January 1941 at Fort Hancock; 1st Battalion activated 1 June 1941 at Fort Hancock.

Battery D was at St. John's, Newfoundland in the Harbor Defenses of Argentia and St. John's with two 8-inch M1888 railway guns 1 May 1941 through 12 February 1942, when redesignated as Battery D, 24th Coast Artillery Regiment and Battery D transferred (less personnel and equipment) back to the US. Battery F served in the Harbor Defenses of Bermuda with four 8-inch M1888 railway guns from 1 April 1941 through 20 February 1942, when redesignated as part of the 27th Coast Artillery Battalion and similarly transferred back to the US.)[2]

In December 1941 Batteries A and B and Headquarters and Headquarters Battery (HHB) 1st Battalion transferred to Hawaii to reinforce the 41st Coast Artillery there.[2]

Battery E ordered to Harbor Defenses of Puget Sound 16 December 1941, but two gun sections were detached to man two 8-inch Mk. VI railway guns at Manhattan Beach, California near Fort MacArthur. In May 1943 this detachment became Battery A, 285th CA (Rwy) Battalion. The other gun sections went to Port Angeles, Washington and on 17 April 1942 were redesignated as Battery X. Later transferred to Fort Casey; redesignated as Battery B, 285th CA (Rwy) Battalion on 30 March 1943.[2]

From March 1942 until 1 May 1943 Batteries C and D operated Batteries 20 and 21 at Fort Miles, Delaware, with four 8-inch Mk. VI railway guns per battery.[4][5] Battery C was at Fort Hancock, New Jersey from early 1942 until transferred to Fort Miles in March 1942.[2]

1st Battalion and Batteries A and B returned to Fort Hancock (less personnel and equipment) 16 February 1942. Reorganized with 8-inch Mk. VI railway guns and transferred to Fort John Custis, Virginia on 27 August 1942. Redesignated as the 286th CA (Rwy) Battalion 5 April 1943.[2]

Battery F reorganized with 8-inch Mk. VI railway guns at Fort Hancock, New Jersey after 20 February 1942; transferred to Camp Shelby, Mississippi and inactivated there 18 April 1944. Personnel distributed among five field artillery battalions.[2]

Regiment broken up 1 May 1943 and its elements reorganized and redesignated as follows:

Headquarters and Headquarters Battery disbanded at Fort Hancock, New Jersey
1st, 2d, and 3d Battalions as the 286th, 287th, and 288th Coast Artillery Battalions, respectively (Headquarters and Headquarters Battery, 288th Coast Artillery Battalion, concurrently inactivated at Fort Hancock, New Jersey). The 288th was inactivated after one day of service.[2] The 286th operated one or two railway gun batteries at Fort John Custis, VA until disestablished in August 1944. The 287th operated the two railway gun batteries at Fort Miles, Delaware until disestablished in August 1944.[5]
After 1 May 1943 the above units underwent changes as follows:

Headquarters and Headquarters Battery, 52nd Coast Artillery, reconstituted 28 June 1950 in the Regular Army and redesignated as Headquarters and Headquarters Battery, 52nd Field Artillery Group
Activated 18 January 1952 at Fort Sill, Oklahoma
Redesignated 25 June 1958 as Headquarters and Headquarters Battery, 52nd Artillery Group
Inactivated 30 June 1971 at Fort Sill, Oklahoma
286th Coast Artillery Battalion converted and redesignated 30 August 1944 at Fort Bragg, NC as the 538th Field Artillery Battalion (240 mm howitzer, tractor-drawn). Arrived in France 3 April 1945; returned via Boston Port of Embarkation 13 December 1945.
Inactivated 14 December 1945 at Camp Myles Standish, Massachusetts
Activated 31 December 1946 in the Philippine Islands
Inactivated 30 May 1947 in the Philippine Islands
Activated 22 March 1951 at Camp Carson, Colorado
Inactivated 1 June 1958 in Germany
287th Coast Artillery Battalion converted and redesignated 30 August 1944 at Fort Bragg, NC as the 539th Field Artillery Battalion (240 mm howitzer, tractor-drawn). Arrived in France 3 April 1945; returned via Boston Port of Embarkation 27 December 1945.
Inactivated 28 December 1945 at Camp Myles Standish, Massachusetts
Activated 31 December 1946 in the Philippine Islands
Inactivated 30 May 1947 in the Philippine Islands
Activated 18 March 1955 in Japan
Inactivated 25 March 1956 in Japan
288th Coast Artillery Battalion inactivated 18 April 1944 at Camp Shelby, Mississippi
Disbanded 14 June 1944
Reconstituted 28 June 1950 in the Regular Army; concurrently consolidated with the 52nd Field Artillery Battalion (active) (see ANNEX) and consolidated unit designated as the 52nd Field Artillery Battalion, an element of the 24th Infantry Division
Inactivated 5 June 1958 and relieved from assignment to the 24th Infantry Division
Battery A, 285th Coast Artillery Battalion inactivated 5 May 1944 at Camp Breckinridge, Kentucky[5]
Battery B, 285th Coast Artillery Battalion inactivated 8 May 1944 at Camp Barkeley, Texas[5]
Headquarters and Headquarters Battery, 52nd Artillery Group, and the 538th, 539th, and 52nd Field Artillery Battalions consolidated, reorganized, and redesignated 30 June 1971 as the 52nd Artillery, a parent regiment under the Combat Arms Regimental System

Redesignated 1 September 1971 as the 52nd Air Defense Artillery

Withdrawn 16 April 1988 from the Combat Arms Regimental System and reorganized under the United States Army Regimental System

The regimental system is a federal jobs program for historians. And when units get merged or activated, there's a big line of priority to either subsume the lesser/younger regiment or to determine which regiment is first in line to slap its lineage onto a new and unrelated unit. But hey, historians gotta eat; it's not a job I envy.

e: bonus

quote:

The Combat Arms Regimental System (CARS), was the method of assigning unit designations to units of some of the combat arms branches of the United States Army, including Infantry, Special Forces, Field Artillery, and Armor, from 1957 to 1981. Air Defense Artillery was added in 1968.

CARS was superseded by the U.S. Army Regimental System (USARS) in 1981, although the term "Regiment" was never appended to the official name or designation of CARS regiments, and was not added to USARS regiments until 2005.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 01:01

A.o.D.: Jan 15, 2006

I did in fact remark about how the military publishes everything.. except in time of war.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 01:02

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Fair enough, the global war on terror service medal stopped being given out on 14 September 2021 unless serving in a specific operation as part of the global war on terror, so we are now at peace.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 01:05

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

mlmp08 posted:

Fair enough, the global war on terror service medal stopped being given out on 14 September 2021 unless serving in a specific operation as part of the global war on terror, so we are now at peace.

Nah we are still fighting korea

# ? Sep 6, 2023 01:07

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Tunicate posted:

Nah we are still fighting korea

oh yeah fuk

# ? Sep 6, 2023 01:16

lightpole: Jun 4, 2004; I think that MBAs are useful, in case you are looking for an answer to the question of "Is lightpole a total fucking idiot".

mlmp08 posted:

The US just publishes lists of its units and forces and details exactly how many tanks and IFVs it is paying to maintain. This goes out in public congressional record, etc. And they simplify the counts, so that they aren't presenting congress with a list of nonsensical unit names. That doesn't mean there can't be secret programs or that they publish every capability or munitions counts or the like, but the US isn't being precious about how many BCTs exist.

On regimental history, it can get pretty goofy even for the very big-name and famous ones.

Let's take a look at the regimental history of the 52nd Air Defense Artillery Regiment. Today, there is one battalion under this regimental affiliation.

The regimental system is a federal jobs program for historians. And when units get merged or activated, there's a big line of priority to either subsume the lesser/younger regiment or to determine which regiment is first in line to slap its lineage onto a new and unrelated unit. But hey, historians gotta eat; it's not a job I envy.

e: bonus

I never considered the complexity of this level of organization when it comes to keeping units functional at all levels, being both useful and cohesive. Numbering sounds absolutely terrible.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 01:17

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

An interesting write up on training:

https://twitter.com/Teoyaomiquu/status/1699193558685618235#m

# ? Sep 6, 2023 01:28

Arrath: Apr 14, 2011

OddObserver posted:

An interesting write up on training:

https://twitter.com/Teoyaomiquu/status/1699193558685618235#m

I hope NATO militaries are paying close attention to feedback like this, as well as how the fight is playing out generally.

I recall reading stories here about OpFor clowning on units at NTC for similar issues: not paying due heed to drones, clustering up the motor pool and other problems that are capitalized on by the bad guys. We oughta be learning from Ukraine's pain.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 03:35

Murgos: Oct 21, 2010

McNally posted:

The Obama Administration was pressuring the Ukrainian government to remove their prosecutor general, Viktor Shokin, because he was turning a blind eye to corruption and going out of his way to not investigate things.

The right wing argument is that Biden, then VP, interceded to get Shokin fired to prevent Shokin from investigating Burisma because his son Hunter was on their board.

There was a multi-year lawsuit of Burisma tried in London with Burisma losing. Ukraine had signed treaties to obey the results of those kinds of trials. Shokin refused. For years.

Upholding international treaties and international courts is �corruption� in MAGA land.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 03:37

shame on an IGA: Apr 8, 2005

Arrath posted:

I hope NATO militaries are paying close attention to feedback like this, as well as how the fight is playing out generally.

I recall reading stories here about OpFor clowning on units at NTC for similar issues: not paying due heed to drones, clustering up the motor pool and other problems that are capitalized on by the bad guys. We oughta be learning from Ukraine's pain.

I imagine part of the disconnect is the trainers not being able to realize a situation where air superiority isn't an immutable fact of nature like gravity or the sunrise

shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Sep 6, 2023

# ? Sep 6, 2023 03:37

Dandywalken: Feb 11, 2014

Stuff like the hesitance to train for EOD seemed weird

# ? Sep 6, 2023 03:44

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

mlmp08 posted:

The regimental system is a federal jobs program for historians.

You say this like it's a bad thing. Anyway it leads to funny things like an NG regiment having battle honors for Yorktown, Normandy, and the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. Or the oldest American units having priority over almost every regiment in the British Army in a joint parade.

Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Sep 6, 2023

# ? Sep 6, 2023 04:01

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

While there's some selection bias going on, I've been surprised how videos so regularly show Russian soldiers ignoring, abandoning, or even seemingly looting their own wounded. On the one hand, this speak to a failure in training and broader esprit de corps, but, on the other, I wonder how well soldiers in Western militaries might hold up in a peer to (near-)peer fight. If I somehow survived a near hit from a shrapnel shell, cluster munitions, and a suicide drone attack all in the span of 15 seconds, the urge to get myself the gently caress out of dodge would be hard to overcome.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 04:25

GD_American: Jul 21, 2004; LISTEN TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY AS IT'S INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT!

psydude posted:

I dunno, a lot of East Germans really seem to be pining for the good old days of Russian proxy rule.

Fair enough. I fully cop to my observations being 15 years old, and limited to a region near but not by American bases in Franconia.

The only time I ever made it to East Germany was to the Lausitzring, to watch Scott Speed represent the USA by crashing in turn one, lap one of an A1GP race.

On unit numbering chat, I had somewhat of an inkling of what a clusterfuck it was, but when I was doing intake to my first real unit, the 121st Signal Battalion, I was getting spoonfed how glorious it was to be in the oldest Signal unit in the Army in the Big Red One, and I had to ask "what happened to the other 120 signal battalions"

# ? Sep 6, 2023 04:26

Tiny Timbs: Sep 6, 2008

Cugel the Clever posted:

While there's some selection bias going on, I've been surprised how videos so regularly show Russian soldiers ignoring, abandoning, or even seemingly looting their own wounded. On the one hand, this speak to a failure in training and broader esprit de corps, but, on the other, I wonder how well soldiers in Western militaries might hold up in a peer to (near-)peer fight. If I somehow survived a near hit from a shrapnel shell, cluster munitions, and a suicide drone attack all in the span of 15 seconds, the urge to get myself the gently caress out of dodge would be hard to overcome.

I mean, these guys probably haven�t known each other much longer than the bus ride to the front.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 04:35

lightpole: Jun 4, 2004; I think that MBAs are useful, in case you are looking for an answer to the question of "Is lightpole a total fucking idiot".

shame on an IGA posted:

I imagine part of the disconnect is the trainers not being able to realize a situation where air superiority isn't an immutable fact of nature like gravity or the sunrise

I'm under the assumption they had no training at all when they went in. In this case they are trying to guess at what information and training might be most useful. Theres a compromise between developing the fundamentals enough for them to be effective and learn/adapt on their own while also imparting useful specific knowledge. Along with this, the trainers probably didn't have an easily applied training module built out for the things they were asking about. They were also looking at deploying around the start of the summer offensive so maybe the focus on attack was part of that?

This is just from my recent experience trying to teach 90 cadets engineering when they have 0 knowledge and I have no support, time, or pathway to get them everything they need.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 04:45

mllaneza: Apr 28, 2007; Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952

OddObserver posted:

An interesting write up on training:

That's a pro-click. It's an excellent article and leads to one clear conclusion. NATO needs Ukraine, they have so much to teach. Or rather, the survivors will.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 05:07

Diarrhea Elemental: Apr 2, 2012; Am I correct in my assumption, you fish-faced enemy of the people?

mlmp08 posted:

The US just publishes lists of its units and forces and details exactly how many tanks and IFVs it is paying to maintain. This goes out in public congressional record, etc. And they simplify the counts, so that they aren't presenting congress with a list of nonsensical unit names. That doesn't mean there can't be secret programs or that they publish every capability or munitions counts or the like, but the US isn't being precious about how many BCTs exist.

On regimental history, it can get pretty goofy even for the very big-name and famous ones.

Let's take a look at the regimental history of the 52nd Air Defense Artillery Regiment. Today, there is one battalion under this regimental affiliation.

The regimental system is a federal jobs program for historians. And when units get merged or activated, there's a big line of priority to either subsume the lesser/younger regiment or to determine which regiment is first in line to slap its lineage onto a new and unrelated unit. But hey, historians gotta eat; it's not a job I envy.

e: bonus

6-52 belongs in the idiots thread, thank you.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 05:44

IPCRESS: May 27, 2012

shame on an IGA posted:

I imagine part of the disconnect is the trainers not being able to realize a situation where air superiority isn't an immutable fact of nature like gravity or the sunrise

German trainers, apparently: "No, the doctrinally sound option is to drive around the minefield".

# ? Sep 6, 2023 08:48

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

A.o.D. posted:

There's also an opsec reason to use nonsequential numbering for unit designations. If you stand up or draw down a unit in wartime (about the only time this wouldn't be accompanied by a press release in the US) The new number doesn't instantly indicate a change in force structure. At least that's the theory. With the drawn down nature of the current force structure it's pretty easy to keep track of the major formations if your job is to study US capabilities.

greasing up 4 regiments numbered 1st 2nd 4th and 5th and turning them loose

# ? Sep 6, 2023 09:18

Fragrag: Aug 3, 2007; The Worst Admin Ever bashes You in the head with his banhammer. It is smashed into the body, an unrecognizable mass! You have been struck down.

Is this why a unit's colors is such a treasured object? It's one thing that they have carried through wars and ages and has not changed?

# ? Sep 6, 2023 09:35

Ataxerxes: Dec 2, 2011; What is a soldier but a miserable pile of eaten cats and strange language?

In the warfare of the 17th century it had a concrete meaning in the contracts of mercenaries. If you fled a battle while the flag was still flying you could be executed for cowardice, but if it was lost your contract was done. Those who guarded the flags tended to be well paid since the owner of the regiment would lose their investment (read: regiment) if they lost it in battle.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 10:17

psydude: Apr 1, 2008

shame on an IGA posted:

I imagine part of the disconnect is the trainers not being able to realize a situation where air superiority isn't an immutable fact of nature like gravity or the sunrise

US doctrine doesn't presume air superiority. It's a combined arms effort that assumes a 50% casualty rate for the breaching unit, which means you need an rear end-ton of equipment. The 6 mine clearing vehicles or whatever the Germans donated are nowhere near enough for something like that.

The error, I think, was assuming that the Ukrainians would be fully equipped with NATO-standard MTOE. They definitely were not.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 11:13

glynnenstein: Feb 18, 2014

lightpole posted:

I'm under the assumption they had no training at all when they went in. In this case they are trying to guess at what information and training might be most useful. Theres a compromise between developing the fundamentals enough for them to be effective and learn/adapt on their own while also imparting useful specific knowledge. Along with this, the trainers probably didn't have an easily applied training module built out for the things they were asking about. They were also looking at deploying around the start of the summer offensive so maybe the focus on attack was part of that?

This is just from my recent experience trying to teach 90 cadets engineering when they have 0 knowledge and I have no support, time, or pathway to get them everything they need.

One of Kofman's criticism of the NATO trained units is that they took green recruits instead of experienced soldiers. The context for him is that the advantages of the western equipment would have been leveraged better by experienced soldiers, but it also suggests the newly trained units only got a rushed training program with little to no field experience or previous instruction.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 13:28

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Diarrhea Elemental posted:

6-52 belongs in the idiots thread, thank you.

Oh yeah, I forgot about 6-52. So the other 52d reg unit is on another continent from 5-52 and assigned to a different division.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 13:57

bulletsponge13: Apr 28, 2010

Every training deficiency mentioned pretty much jives along with the training deficiencies I received in OSUT Infantry training, so I'm not surprised if it was Americans training them.

For context, I went through Benning School for Wayward Boys in 2002. The early OEF Vets weren't in TRADOC yet, and of course, Iraq hadn't happened. We got the bare minimum with the caveat of "You'll learn this at your unit." Good, great, grand- when you get that luxury. I get that everyone does it differently, and that there is never enough time, but the things that were cut were vital and probably got kids hurt and killed.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 14:05

Alan Smithee: Jan 4, 2005; A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms.

Enthusiasms, enthusiasms...

https://twitter.com/ArmeniaMODTeam/status/1699297627865542665

jealous gf meme

# ? Sep 6, 2023 14:56

McNally: Sep 13, 2007; Ask me about Proposition 305

Do you like muskets?

Fragrag posted:

Is this why a unit's colors is such a treasured object? It's one thing that they have carried through wars and ages and has not changed?

It's a holdover from old timey battlefields where a unit's colors were the rally point for the unit and its point of pride (for example, in the American Civil War, a regiment's colors were usually presented to the unit by the women of the town the regiment was raised, sometimes even having been sewn by them). To lose your colors in battle was just about the ultimate disgrace, as either they had been taken by the enemy (a clear defeat of the unit) or somehow left behind (a sign of cowardice).

Now it's just tradition that the colors are An Important Thing.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 15:18

The Door Frame: Dec 5, 2011; I don't know man everytime I go to the gym here there are like two huge dudes with raging high and tights snorting Nitro-tech off of each other's rock hard abs.

Alan Smithee posted:

https://twitter.com/ArmeniaMODTeam/status/1699297627865542665

jealous gf meme

NATO/CSTO joint exercises when?

# ? Sep 6, 2023 15:20

Alan Smithee: Jan 4, 2005; A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms.

Enthusiasms, enthusiasms...

No Russias Allowed Club

# ? Sep 6, 2023 15:23

joat mon: Oct 15, 2009; I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.

McNally posted:

It's a holdover from old timey battlefields where a unit's colors were the rally point for the unit and its point of pride (for example, in the American Civil War, a regiment's colors were usually presented to the unit by the women of the town the regiment was raised, sometimes even having been sewn by them). To lose your colors in battle was just about the ultimate disgrace, as either they had been taken by the enemy (a clear defeat of the unit) or somehow left behind (a sign of cowardice).

Now it's just tradition that the colors are An Important Thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG7daMnrNuY

# ? Sep 6, 2023 15:33

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

bulletsponge13 posted:

Every training deficiency mentioned pretty much jives along with the training deficiencies I received in OSUT Infantry training, so I'm not surprised if it was Americans training them.

For context, I went through Benning School for Wayward Boys in 2002. The early OEF Vets weren't in TRADOC yet, and of course, Iraq hadn't happened. We got the bare minimum with the caveat of "You'll learn this at your unit." Good, great, grand- when you get that luxury. I get that everyone does it differently, and that there is never enough time, but the things that were cut were vital and probably got kids hurt and killed.

I went through Benning in 1985, and the majority of my senior drill sergeants were all Vietnam vets, primarily from the 173rd. We learned everything about jungles and nothing about deserts.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 15:54

The Door Frame: Dec 5, 2011; I don't know man everytime I go to the gym here there are like two huge dudes with raging high and tights snorting Nitro-tech off of each other's rock hard abs.

Alan Smithee posted:

No Russias Allowed Club

"But you guys let Kaliningrad in!"
"It's the No Russias Allowed Club, we're allowed to have one."

# ? Sep 6, 2023 16:18

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 6, 2024 02:32

Lovely Joe Stalin: Jun 12, 2007; Our Lovely Wang

McNally posted:

It's a holdover from old timey battlefields where a unit's colors were the rally point for the unit and its point of pride (for example, in the American Civil War, a regiment's colors were usually presented to the unit by the women of the town the regiment was raised, sometimes even having been sewn by them). To lose your colors in battle was just about the ultimate disgrace, as either they had been taken by the enemy (a clear defeat of the unit) or somehow left behind (a sign of cowardice).

Now it's just tradition that the colors are An Important Thing.

Yeah, at least in British army the colours are supremely important to the identity and history of the unit even though their purpose is purely ceremonial now. The British regimental system seems to work fine in that it produces an extremely strong identity and esprit de corps.

# ? Sep 6, 2023 16:41

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