|
Flipperwaldt posted:Absolute gibberish from people who read something about fabric softener and assume this is similar. wait whats wrong with fabric softerner?
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 18:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 17:10 |
|
|
Earwicker posted:wait whats wrong with fabric softerner? It's basically wax, and tends to gum up your laundry machine.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 18:45
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:wait whats wrong with fabric softerner?
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 18:46
|
|
|
well i dont own any laundry machines, the machines i use are owned by my landlord and im probably getting ripped off somehow every time i do laundry so im going to keep using fabric softener
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 18:54
|
|
|
alnilam posted:As for what someone might be concerned about : since they're not very forthcoming about what's in them, i wouldn't blame someone for wondering if there's e.g. PTFE in there, something known to make water bead off really well and used in cookware. There's not PTFE in there, but it wouldn't be totally crazy to wonder if there is especially when they don't say what's in there. AFAIK they are mostly ethanol and citric acid - both fine - but apparently they can contain acrylates, whose duration on the dish surface is maybe less obvious and the fact that it is dispensed with the rinse water makes it more concerning than if the same stuff were in the detergent. I don't think "what if there was ptfe in there? there isnt, but what if?" is a concern worth having. I think this would be worth taking seriously if there was any available evidence of any harmful chemicals left over from dishwasher rinse aids. Do you have any? Which acrylates are you concerned about specifically? What's the concentration left over after the cycle?
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 18:59
|
|
|
Is there anyone still making/selling BPA-full plastic stuff? Like water bottles and ice cube trays. I want indestructible ones and I'm not concerned about leaching (I'll avoid hot/acidic things and not use them to feed infants, which I think are the biggest risks).
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 19:18
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:I don't think "what if there was ptfe in there? there isnt, but what if?" is a concern worth having. I think this would be worth taking seriously if there was any available evidence of any harmful chemicals left over from dishwasher rinse aids. Do you have any? That's not what i said, i was giving an example of a concerning guess someone might come up with considering they don't say what all the gently caress is in them. The lack of information here is entirely the point, combined with all the examples in history of chemicals in consumer products that were later discovered to be less safe than originally thought (or advertised). Anyway here is a study from 2022 showing that yes, rinse aids can leave potentially harmful residues both in controlled lab setting and in an actual dishwasher (bolding mine) https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jaci.2022.10.020 quote:The observed detergent toxicity was attributed to exposure to rinse aid in a dose-dependent manner up to 1:20,000 v/v dilution. A disrupted epithelial barrier, particularly by rinse aid, was observed in liquid-liquid interface cultures, organoids, and gut-on-a-chip, demonstrating decreased transepithelial electrical resistance, increased paracellular flux, and irregular and heterogeneous tight junction immunostaining. When individual components of the rinse aid were investigated separately, alcohol ethoxylates elicited a strong toxic and barrier-damaging effect. RNA-sequencing transcriptome and proteomics data revealed upregulation in cell death, signaling and communication, development, metabolism, proliferation, and immune and inflammatory responses of epithelial cells. Interestingly, detergent residue from professional dishwashers demonstrated the remnant of a significant amount of cytotoxic and epithelial barrier–damaging rinse aid remaining on washed and ready-to-use dishware. This is a pretty new study that I only found just now for the purposes of this argument, but it concurs with my intuition that made me wary. Yes it's minor, it's not any kind of mind blowing "oh my god rinse aid is going to kill us all," but it's something that was purported to be safe. The same thing happened with "microwave safe" plastic containers. Given these kinds of revelations keep happening, can you blame people for being wary in the absence of any convincing evidence? Especially for as unnecessary a luxury as friggin dishwasher rinse aid?
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 20:01
|
|
|
NM
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 20:48
|
|
|
For a while a few years ago I used a Blink camera. It was poo poo for a variety of reasons and eventually the sync module stopped working entirely. I bought a new one assuming that the newer version would be better, but apparently this cheap Amazon garbage won't work if there's a 5ghz wifi network within a 10 mile radius or anything at all anywhere uses security, or some bullshit, I don't know; point being, after hours of troubleshooting, changing router settings, trying every reset and config on every Amazon or Reddit support thread I can find, and the thing still won't even pass initial configuration, and I'm entirely washing my hands of it. So, my question: Is there a non-Amazon/Blink/Ring wifi security camera that isn't poo poo and isn't stupid expensive? I just want something to watch my porch and driveway while I go on vacation, I don't need a ton of bells and whistles or automatic sirens or 2-way intercom or any of that crap, I just want a camera I can access from somewhere that isn't my home network.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 21:07
|
|
|
alnilam posted:Anyway here is a study from 2022 showing that yes, rinse aids can leave potentially harmful residues both in controlled lab setting and in an actual dishwasher (bolding mine) No, it does not show that. That study, in a nutshell, exposed commercially available cell cultures in vitro to rinse aid in a variety of concentrations that should be present in a running dishwasher. nowhere in the study does it say anything about whether rinse aid remains in the dishwasher after the cycle or how much if it does. It doesn't say anything about what happens to the body if you consume it, it doesn't say anything about whether it's present on dishes or in food. It says that rinse aid is bad for epithelial cells on a glass slide. Which, personally, doesn't surprise me. I'm sorry to keep this dumb derail going but bad science literacy and fear of environmental toxins is exactly what leads to poo poo like vaccine skepticism and i hate to see it. Dr. Fishopolis fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Sep 6, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 21:28
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:nowhere in the study does it say anything about whether rinse aid remains in the dishwasher after the cycle or how much if it does. They did exactly that lol quote:To study the chemicals in the residue remaining on the surface of dishware after washing, 10 porcelain cups (190 mL size) were subjected to 1 full washing and drying cycle in professional (Winterhalter, GS501, Germany) and household (AEG, GS60AV, Poland) dishwashers and then 1 mL of culture medium was added into them. After shaking and waiting for 5 minutes, the culture medium was collected from the cups, filter-sterilized, and added to the monolayer and differentiated cell cultures directly or in 1:2, 1:5, and 1:10 dilutions. Thanks for the lecture on bad science literacy though e: edit moved to new post alnilam fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Sep 6, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 21:36
|
|
|
alnilam posted:They did exactly that lol Ah, excuse me, that's my bad then. So given that the residue seems to be cytotoxic to intestinal epithelial cells in vitro, how worried do you think you should be and why? Do you think the residue would have the same effect on cells in vivo once it gets all the way down there through the digestive tract? Dr. Fishopolis fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Sep 6, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 21:45
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:Ah, excuse me, that's my bad then. So given that the residue seems to be cytotoxic to intestinal epithelial cells in vitro, how worried do you think you should be and why? why worry at all when instead of worrying you can simply not use rinse aids? alternatively you could simply accept that you live in a world of toxic household products that will one day slowly kill you, realize the inevitability of death and use any of them that you want, and stop worrying about it that way too
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 21:47
|
|
|
comparing this to antivax bullshit is really dumb. First of all, vaccines do have risk, very well quantified risk, it's just their benefit is immense and vastly, vastly outweighs that risk. Getting a vaccine is a no brainer and anyone who thinks their risks are unknown or being hidden is wrong - they are studied to hell and back Rinse aid makes your dishes prettier, so the benefit is minimal, and the risk is probably minimal too, but not very well known. I was honestly surprised to find any real studies about it like I did, and it's very new, and while it shows a potential mechanism for harm, and evidence of residue after use in a real dishwasher, it does not show evidence of harm or any knowledge of ingestion into the body. Most likely it is fine... knowing for sure would probably take substantial public health studies that will probably never occur. I would not blame someone one bit for saying "meh plenty of other things that will kill me, I'll keep using that garbage." Hell if I lived in a place with hard water I'd still consider using it even after reading this. But you don't gotta be a smarter-than-thou jerk to someone who decides to opt out of a household chemical whose utility is completely superficial.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 21:50
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:why worry at all when instead of worrying you can simply not use rinse aids? Because telling people “just don’t get aids” hasn’t historically worked
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 21:50
|
|
|
Smirking_Serpent posted:Because telling people “just don’t get aids” hasn’t historically worked wtf  i have no idea how you are remotely making that comparison on any level. unless that is meant as a joke?
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 21:55
|
|
|
because they both use the word "aids", op
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 21:57
|
|
|
Smirking_Serpent posted:because they both use the word "aids", op Jokes work better when they're remotely funny.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 22:01
|
|
|
no aids on my dishes op of either kind
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 22:01
|
|
|
alnilam posted:Rinse aid makes your dishes prettier, so the benefit is minimal, and the risk is probably minimal too, but not very well known. I was honestly surprised to find any real studies about it like I did, and it's very new, and while it shows a potential mechanism for harm, and evidence of residue after use in a real dishwasher, it does not show evidence of harm or any knowledge of ingestion into the body. Most likely it is fine... knowing for sure would probably take substantial public health studies that will probably never occur. I would not blame someone one bit for saying "meh plenty of other things that will kill me, I'll keep using that garbage." Hell if I lived in a place with hard water I'd still consider using it even after reading this. But you don't gotta be a smarter-than-thou jerk to someone who decides to opt out of a household chemical whose utility is completely superficial. Cool, we're ultimately on the same page then. I don't use or care about rinse aids, I care about the alternative health industry that tries to claim that literally everything causes "leaky gut syndrome" so they can sell you an all-natural cure. It's important to be skeptical of that stuff and try and find the medical consensus rather than an outlier that proves your case.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 22:03
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:Cool, we're ultimately on the same page then. I don't use or care about rinse aids, I care about the alternative health industry that tries to claim that literally everything causes "leaky gut syndrome" so they can sell you an all-natural cure. i would maybe wait to start the accusatory tone until someone is actually trying to sell you something. someone saying "there might be bad poo poo in a product" is not doing that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 22:04
|
|
|
Genuinely surprised by the information it leaves any residue at all versus just soap. In that case I'll support the position of the goon wanting better labeling at least, even if I'm not going to care personally.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 22:07
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:i would maybe wait to start the accusatory tone until someone is actually trying to sell you something. someone saying "there might be bad poo poo in a product" is not doing that. I'm not accusing any poster here of doing anything like that, sorry if it came off that way. And also, if you google "rinse aid ingredients" there are a shitload of grocery store brands that list every ingredient on their website if not the bottle, so I'm unclear on this whole "we need better labeling" thing. Maybe it's different outside the US. e: vvv yeah that's too sparse for sure, i agree. Dr. Fishopolis fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Sep 6, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 22:17
|
|
|
I've got three different bottles of the stuff here and one literally says "contains among other things", the other defines ingredients by just their function (non-ionic surfactants), the third one just warns not to drink it. In the EU. Something more specific than that on the actual bottle would be welcome.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 22:30
|
|
|
RPATDO_LAMD posted:no aids on my dishes op This, frankly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2023 23:05
|
|
|
This is the laziest way I've seen someone try bring up NIN yet.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2023 00:00
|
|
|
What's the single word for theft of mature crops of plants? King of like rustling, it's a single word rather than praedial theft, but it's on the tips of our tongues and I can't think of it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2023 02:14
|
|
|
GWBBQ posted:What's the single word for theft of mature crops of plants? King of like rustling, it's a single word rather than praedial theft, but it's on the tips of our tongues and I can't think of it. According to Chat GPT it's "harvesting" quote:The single word for the theft of mature crops of plants is "harvesting" when done illegally or without permission. However, "rustling" is also sometimes used to refer to this type of theft in certain contexts. So, both "harvesting" and "rustling" can be appropriate terms, depending on the context and region. But that can't be right surely
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2023 03:26
|
|
|
Rinse all the AIDS off, you'll be fineBucky Fullminster posted:According to Chat GPT it's "harvesting" Of course it's right, ChatGPT is never wrong. I hear it's a great source for legal case files, too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2023 06:52
|
|
|
right or wrong, i'm voting for it in 2024, and so are you.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2023 06:56
|
|
|
Hyperlynx posted:Of course it's right, ChatGPT is never wrong. I hear it's a great source for legal case files, too. I haven't used it much beyond playing around when it first came out, but being a language tool is one of its strengths I've got a question, what genre of music would you call this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aatK_l9Yuyk Genres are generally defined by their beat / rhythm, and I can't seem to think of one this fits
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2023 07:11
|
|
|
Bucky Fullminster posted:I haven't used it much beyond playing around when it first came out, but being a language tool is one of its strengths All joking aside, ChatGPT does not tell you when it's making stuff up or not (if it even knows the difference, which I doubt). It's a terrible tool. It's no good at producing facts because you can't tell when it's lying, and it's no good for producing creative output because it's just plagiarism.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2023 07:25
|
|
|
Hyperlynx posted:All joking aside, ChatGPT does not tell you when it's making stuff up or not (if it even knows the difference, which I doubt). It's a terrible tool. It's no good at producing facts because you can't tell when it's lying, and it's no good for producing creative output because it's just plagiarism. Sure. This particular task isn't really asking it to produce facts (although if you know enough to be able to test it, it does often do surprisingly well), and it's not asking it produce creative output (which I loathe). It is essentially a vocab / language database, and this is a vocab / language question, so it's an example where of where it can be helpful / useful. Definitely don't rely on it, and cross-check everything, but if a word is on the tip of your tongue it can be a good way to recall it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2023 07:37
|
|
|
it's not a database, it's an autocomplete engine. you cannot look up any data, of any kind, in chatgpt, and get reliable answers
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2023 07:52
|
|
|
The MSDS for rinse-aid states that it's relatively harmless: https://performancefoodservice.com/~/media/465C5C285F554A22BD1D4A9EA4D897AC.ashx Mostly some obscure alcohols which do work to release grease from stuff. Pretty acidic though, a PH below 3 is definitely gonna harm a bacterial culture or cells or whatever they exposed to it. Hence the warning not to rub it in eyes, or presumably any other mucous membranes Sadly, there is no LD50. I guess they didn't try feeding rats rinse-aid. E: mild acid or stuff that removes grease would be bad for most consumer electronics in the long run, so I can see it damaging a washer with enough use. Fruits of the sea fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Sep 7, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2023 09:24
|
|
|
RPATDO_LAMD posted:it's not a database, it's an autocomplete engine. you cannot look up any data, of any kind, in chatgpt, and get reliable answers so what's the single word for theft of mature crops of plants
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2023 11:15
|
|
|
Bucky Fullminster posted:so what's the single word for theft of mature crops of plants Birdstrike  Or maybe you're thinking of gleaning, although that's specifically not stealing
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2023 11:48
|
|
|
Probably just poaching, but for fruit scrumping
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2023 11:56
|
|
|
I was recently reminded that Brits (at least) say "the" menopause. Do they use that construction for puberty too? In either case, what is the reason for the article?
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2023 12:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 17:10 |
|
|
Same but US and 'the cancer'
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2023 12:26
|
|