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I’d spend more time creating great things for the apple ecosystem if xcode wasn’t so sluggish and the debugging experience was as good as I have it in “.NET and webpages”
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Sep 7, 2023 14:38
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the phrase "carpetbaggers" is load bearing here
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Sep 7, 2023 16:27
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a lot of people write software purely so that they can make money by doing so, preferably quickly, and don't actually care much about any other qualities of the process or the end result besides that. the same is true of like webapp or nodejs development or whatever. that's hardly anything unique to apple but mr fanboy over here makes a big deal of falling over onto his fainting couch about it, that's why everybody is laughing at his post.
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Sep 7, 2023 17:21
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tef posted:the phrase "carpetbaggers" is load bearing here unwashed career devs exploiting the fertile land of apple without giving anything back (besides 30%)
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Sep 7, 2023 17:25
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rjmccall posted:making swift be a managed environment would force it to interact pervasively with a non-managed environment, which tends to be both error-prone and a major performance limiter. the real fun is tying two managed environments together, such that their GCs don’t create mutual cycles and you can survive things like copying collection. I’m embarrassed to admit that I let some very smart people spend a bunch of time tilting at that windmill when we thought our browser was going to host more managed runtimes than just JS just supporting moving GC is a lot of overhead via handles and indirect loads and stuff and makes interoperability with other environments awkward. I love GC but it really has to be the whole world. Apple should have shipped a handheld Lisp Machine
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Sep 7, 2023 17:31
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Sapozhnik posted:a lot of people write software purely so that they can make money by doing so, preferably quickly, and don't actually care much about any other qualities of the process or the end result besides that. yeah, you have to make the desired thing the easiest thing, and be known to be the easiest thing, or you’re just fighting entropy
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Sep 7, 2023 17:32
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tbf shipping a mobile platform built around an unmanaged gui toolkit and an unmanaged language with some basic ownership-management machinery was a much better call than shipping an entire runtime environment built on top of a not-JVM
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Sep 7, 2023 17:36
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Sapozhnik posted:tbf shipping a mobile platform built around an unmanaged gui toolkit and an unmanaged language with some basic ownership-management machinery was a much better call than shipping an entire runtime environment built on top of a not-JVM windows phone ran just fine with a managed language. android is/was just badly put together.
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Sep 7, 2023 17:38
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sorry i'm not doing a bad faith reading but you guys can keep going off on one about those poor fart app authors
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Sep 7, 2023 17:43
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Sapozhnik posted:tbf shipping a mobile platform built around an unmanaged gui toolkit and an unmanaged language with some basic ownership-management machinery was a much better call than shipping an entire runtime environment built on top of a not-JVM i don't think it necessarily was a better idea, if it wasn't for them already having almost the entire thing built and ready. had it been from scratch in 2006 i think a good effort at a managed environment would have turned out even better.
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Sep 7, 2023 17:44
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Subjunctive posted:the real fun is tying two managed environments together, such that their GCs don’t create mutual cycles and you can survive things like copying collection. I’m embarrassed to admit that I let some very smart people spend a bunch of time tilting at that windmill when we thought our browser was going to host more managed runtimes than just JS i asked because apple do ship a really well thought out conservative non moving collector for webkit edit: and yeah there's a reason people just use refcounting when dealing with cross heap objects
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Sep 7, 2023 17:45
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akadajet posted:unwashed career devs exploiting the fertile land of apple without giving anything back (besides 30%) fitting, as apple has been increasingly retreating into their own walled-off software ecosystem. if you told someone 20 years ago that microsoft of all companies would be a better contributor to the software ecosystem than apple, you would have been laughed out of the room. now you have apple increasingly doing their own thing, which is often incompatible with everyone else, and doing things like grabbing open source projects for their own use and throwing the minimum back over the fence. their "game porting kit" is just a bunch of forked projects like wine, dxvk, and faudio, with apple throwing back only the minimum required to comply with the licenses it will probably bit-rot soon enough though, as it seems to be intended for developers to port vr games to their $3500 goggles that nobody is going to buy
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Sep 7, 2023 17:46
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akadajet posted:windows phone ran just fine with a managed language. android is/was just badly put together. See also webOS
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Sep 7, 2023 17:47
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The_Franz posted:doing things like grabbing open source projects for their own use and throwing the minimum back over the fence. their "game porting kit" is just a bunch of forked projects like wine, dxvk, and faudio, with apple throwing back only the minimum required to comply with the licenses boo hoo, pick a different license for your stuff if you don’t want people to use it according to the license terms. open source is about the legal rights and requirements that stem from the copyright holder’s choices about copying, it’s not about everyone sitting a tent and singing together did they use something of yours in a way you didn’t like?
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Sep 7, 2023 18:06
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Subjunctive posted:boo hoo, pick a different license for your stuff if you don’t want people to use it according to the license terms but it's not as if a corporate entity like apple can't use some of the multiple billions in profit to contribute back a little more, maybe? yes, it's legal, but it's also a bit lovely
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Sep 7, 2023 18:15
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Subjunctive posted:boo hoo, pick a different license for your stuff if you don’t want people to use it according to the license terms. open source is about the legal rights and requirements that stem from the copyright holder’s choices about copying, it’s not about everyone sitting a tent and singing together it's not a complaint about whether they're following the spirit of the license
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Sep 7, 2023 18:16
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writing open source software and not getting paid for it makes you a sucker, imo
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Sep 7, 2023 18:25
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art can exist for its own sake without a profit motive the trick is to write open-source software that does not have commercial value
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Sep 7, 2023 18:26
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i accept that using an open source project has some social obligations and not just the legal ones, but there’s always a pool of people griping about companies only doing “the minimum” because really what they want is someone else to implement/maintain their pet feature, and that is just a misunderstanding of how anything works. you don’t get to dictate other people’s priorities
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Sep 7, 2023 18:30
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Sagacity posted:in general i would consider this fair enough they could do any number of charitable things. I wish they’d build affordable housing, too Dylan16807 posted:it's not a complaint about whether they're following the spirit of the license I think it’s exactly a complaint about that to which I was responding: The_Franz posted:apple throwing back only the minimum required to comply with the licenses
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Sep 7, 2023 18:32
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rjmccall posted:i accept that using an open source project has some social obligations and not just the legal ones, but there’s always a pool of people griping about companies only doing “the minimum” because really what they want is someone else to implement/maintain their pet feature, and that is just a misunderstanding of how anything works. you don’t get to dictate other people’s priorities and if a company comes in with big contributions, they’re looked at as “taking over”, often because they can move faster than part-time volunteers
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Sep 7, 2023 18:33
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Subjunctive posted:they could do any number of charitable things. I wish they’d build affordable housing, too
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Sep 7, 2023 18:38
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e.g. amd is contributing a mess of gpu offloading features to clang, because that’s their priority, that’s what they’re trying to do. i can tell them as a code owner that something they’re trying to implement doesn’t fit in with the infrastructure very well right now, or it’s duplicative with some existing we did for some other feature, and i’d like them to do some refactoring in order to land their patch. but i can’t tell them to, like, implement c99 _Imaginary types because that’s the price of contributing to the project; that would just be me being a lovely code owner abusing my power as gatekeeper to get other people to do my personal priorities
rjmccall fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Sep 7, 2023 |
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Sep 7, 2023 18:40
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governance matters though As much as people make fun of Rust drama, it's a lot better than Swift. Because for all the lack of community "drama" (er, I assume), it'll forever be an Apple-only language for Apple products and nothing else, because everyone implicitly understands that Swift will serve Apple and that's it. Which is a shame because it looks like a really well-designed and impressive language.
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Sep 7, 2023 18:46
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Swift’s language-design governance is great, but it’s also better-staffed than Rust in that area, so they can afford some more investment
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Sep 7, 2023 18:53
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there’s plenty of room in the swift tent for doing things that apple isn’t interested in or isn’t treating as a current priority. but it is always going to be an apple-led project, and i can understand why people have feelings about that
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Sep 7, 2023 19:00
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I attended a presentation a few years ago from someone from IBM who tried to convince us that swift would work very well as a backend server language haven't heard anything about that since though
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Sep 7, 2023 19:16
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rjmccall posted:hey, my c++now talk got posted:
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Sep 7, 2023 19:20
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Sagacity posted:I attended a presentation a few years ago from someone from IBM who tried to convince us that swift would work very well as a backend server language Seems at least as good as go.
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Sep 7, 2023 19:22
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Sagacity posted:I attended a presentation a few years ago from someone from IBM who tried to convince us that swift would work very well as a backend server language the most dangerous place to be in tech is between ibm and a marketing opportunity. it’s amazing how innovative that company can be without ever doing much of worth anyway, there’s a bunch of people doing things with swift on server on the swift forums, i assume it’s fairly workable
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Sep 7, 2023 19:48
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Subjunctive posted:Swift’s language-design governance is great 
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Sep 7, 2023 19:49
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there were definitely a lot of people who thought that swift being open source and accepting external contributions to both design and implementation meant that apple was going to invest heavily in making swift better for non-apple uses, and that was a pretty silly assumption. i think some people also got the impression that ibm was pushed away rather than ibm's involvement being a typical completely fake ibm thing from the beginning.
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Sep 7, 2023 19:49
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in other news, you might ask what over-the-hill plang enjoyers are up to because lol at dhh once again not understanding why type systems are good https://world.hey.com/dhh/turbo-8-is-dropping-typescript-70165c01
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Sep 7, 2023 19:55
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rails is the absolute antithesis of static typing so it was very unsurprising to learn that he hates typescript. how they went about ripping out typescript was very funny though.
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Sep 7, 2023 19:58
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Dijkstracula posted:in other news, you might ask what over-the-hill plang enjoyers are up to what is turbo 8?
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Sep 7, 2023 20:20
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Wheany posted:what is turbo 8? probably some dumb web poo poo no one cares about full of bad ideas and apparently no types
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Sep 7, 2023 20:30
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rails is omakase
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Sep 7, 2023 20:34
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rjmccall posted:hey, my c++now talk got posted: You look exactly like a guy who is going to talk about C++ for an hour and a half should look like. 
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Sep 7, 2023 20:49
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DHH is the clown prince of programming bloggers
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Sep 7, 2023 20:50
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it took me some digging to even find it because it's got so little mindshare.Sweeper posted:probably some dumb web poo poo no one cares about full of bad ideas and apparently no types ya nailed it quote:Turbo uses complementary techniques to dramatically reduce the amount of custom JavaScript that most web applications will need to write:
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Sep 7, 2023 20:51
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