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Bwee posted:Zealot is not serious scholarship and shouldn't be treated as such Well now I'm interested in more scholarly reading! Where should I go next?
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Sep 10, 2023 16:35
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Byzantine posted:I'm pretty doubtful of this explanation, it sounds like backfilling. The gospel of Matthew was written before 100ad, likely when Domitian was in charge and persecuting Christians and Jews alike to enforce the Roman religion (incl syncretism with the Egyptian gods) and his own imperial divinity. There would be no cause or desire to frame the Empire as 'not evil' then. There was a pretty important reason to frame the Empire as not evil: they were trying to reach out to and convert Romans, having found little success among Jews. Your average everyday Roman would not be particularly interested in a cult that decried their empire as evil. On the other hand, it didn't take early Christian leaders long to notice that Jews were particularly unreceptive to Christian evangelism. And given Christianity's strong ties and similarities to Judaism, early Christian leaders were particularly resentful about that lack of acceptance. The Empire as a whole probably wasn't persecuting Christians especially hard in the first century. While some sources suggest that Domitian persecuted Christians, the evidence is unclear and disputed, and most of it was written after his reign - which ended with him being assassinated and officially condemned by the Senate as a cruel tyrant. While it's not implausible that he persecuted religious minorities, that likely applied to the Jews as well, who weren't in particularly good standing with the Empire, given that Domitian's family had built its power and prestige by brutally suppressing a major Jewish rebellion when Domitian was a child. Aside from that, there was of course Nero blaming Christians for the Great Fire of Rome, which is reasonably well accepted. But other than that, the imperial government didn't really take notice of Christians at the time, and largely didn't bother to single them out for special treatment. Major Empire-wide persecutions of Christians didn't really get going until the third century, when Christianity had significantly spread and when emperors were looking for drastic measures to restore the stability of the increasingly troubled empire.
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Sep 10, 2023 17:11
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BonoMan posted:Well now I'm interested in more scholarly reading! Where should I go next? Bart Ehrman is a scholar who has written several books with the intention of being more digestible to mass audiences. Misquoting Jesus is probably his most well-known.
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Sep 10, 2023 19:25
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Young Freud posted:The Pharisees, the priesthood of Judea, feared the power of the revolutionary Jesus. Jesus smashed up the money changers' tables, depriving them of tithes; protected and comforted the marginalized; and gained an enormous following in a short time. I think you must mean the Sadducees. The Sadducees were the priesthood who controlled how the Temple was run. The Pharisees were a social movement more aligned with the commoners; they emphasized Torah study rather than the Temple functions (and are the ancestors of Rabbinic Judaism). Jesus didn't care for either group much. Lychnis fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Sep 10, 2023 |
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Sep 10, 2023 19:40
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Judgy Fucker posted:Bart Ehrman is a scholar who has written several books with the intention of being more digestible to mass audiences. Misquoting Jesus is probably his most well-known. Oh poo poo I haven't done the Bart Ehrman since the 90s.
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Sep 10, 2023 22:47
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BonoMan posted:Well now I'm interested in more scholarly reading! Where should I go next? Bart Ehrman is what you're looking for. He's a serious, internationally recognized academic and authority on the New Testament. He has literally written textbooks on the subject, along with decades of scholarly research and articles. At the same time, he has written multiple bestselling books intended for general audiences, also on the New Testament and associated topics. These books are very readable and understandable with no academic or ecclesiastical background on the topic. He even had a weekly podcast. Go read his stuff.
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Sep 11, 2023 00:28
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IIRC, the two (mostly) indisputed facts about Jesus was that he was baptized by St. John the Baptist (dude was way into that poo poo), and was crucified under Pilate. Beyond this, it's pretty fuzzy. Jesus probably was originally a follower of St. John, who lead a major Essene sect - which the present-day Mandaens may be the remnants of (probably the same as the Sabeans in the Koran).
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Sep 11, 2023 00:58
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I don't regard Him to be a historical figure.
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Sep 11, 2023 07:10
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I don’t regard Napoleon to be a historical figure.
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Sep 11, 2023 12:46
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I don't regard Donald Trump as a hysterical figure.
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Sep 11, 2023 14:32
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Push El Burrito posted:Oh poo poo I haven't done the Bart Ehrman since the 90s. Lol
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Sep 11, 2023 14:40
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Chimp_On_Stilts posted:Bart Ehrman is what you're looking for. He's a serious, internationally recognized academic and authority on the New Testament. He has literally written textbooks on the subject, along with decades of scholarly research and articles. Does he also back up the assertions of the 1946 movement?
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Sep 11, 2023 15:07
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Bwee posted:The historicity of Jesus is not disputed I thought that it was. Isn't there a solid theory that Jesus is an amalgamation of different messianic figures from other religions?
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Sep 11, 2023 18:01
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ryde posted:I thought that it was. Isn't there a solid theory that Jesus is an amalgamation of different messianic figures from other religions? It exists, but is hardly what I'd call a solid or mainstream hypothesis and definitely runs contrary to the contemporaneous accounts such as Josephus Flavius and Tacitus. The amalgamation idea is pretty fringe, though perhaps not fully in  territory.
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Sep 11, 2023 18:05
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ryde posted:I thought that it was. Isn't there a solid theory that Jesus is an amalgamation of different messianic figures from other religions? One take away from the Jesus Seminar is that what can be said from evidence is that Jesus existed, and was probably crucified.
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Sep 11, 2023 18:14
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Most of the time when people try to claim Christianity amalgamated or stole ideas from other religions it's coming from the angle of discrediting it. A noble goal, but one which drives people to grab ideas separated by thousands of years and thousands of miles (Horus, Yule, Krishna, Mithras, Sol Invictus, etc) and claim they all somehow swirled together around...nothing, since they claim there's no historical Jesus. So Paul or James or whoever just woke up one day and grabbed a bit of Hindu myth and a bit of Roman myth and a bit of Germanic myth somehow and mixed it all up like the Powerpuff Girls and then convinced enough people his new god was cool that it hit critical mass.
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Sep 11, 2023 18:28
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Bwee posted:The historicity of Jesus is not disputed Kind of a meaningless thing to say though. Like, sure, there was probably some cult leader named Yeshua around that time, but anything else  Byzantine posted:So Paul or James or whoever just woke up one day and grabbed a bit of Hindu myth and a bit of Roman myth and a bit of Germanic myth somehow and mixed it all up like the Powerpuff Girls and then convinced enough people his new god was cool that it hit critical mass. Earliest written gospel dates to like 100 years after the supposed death of Christ vvvvv probably ask/tell
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Sep 11, 2023 18:55
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I know this isn't really USCE anymore so is there a good thread to discuss this further?
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Sep 11, 2023 18:56
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Jaxyon posted:Earliest written gospel dates to like 100 years after the supposed death of Christ This is an example of not knowing basic historical criticism of the NT and reaching incorrect conclusions from it. Which is extremely American politics.
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Sep 11, 2023 19:02
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I mean also I don't care. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 11, 2023 19:05
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All I know is if I'm suffering with lovely dry burgers and someone comes along and says "my dude, you ever try a fuckin CHEESEburger? God says it's ok now", I'm following Him to the ends of the Earth.
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Sep 11, 2023 19:05
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Bar Ran Dun posted:This is an example of not knowing basic historical criticism of the NT and reaching incorrect conclusions from it. That's how basically all of it goes. "Hm, Sol Invictus' birthday was Dec 25 - STOLEN" when it's actually much more likely that Emperor Aurelian moved Sol's feast days from the dead of summer (where they were in the Republican era) to Dec 25 to try to bring the Christians into his new state religion.
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Sep 11, 2023 19:06
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Push El Burrito posted:All I know is if I'm suffering with lovely dry burgers and someone comes along and says "my dude, you ever try a fuckin CHEESEburger? God says it's ok now", I'm following Him to the ends of the Earth. blessed are the cheeseburgers
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Sep 11, 2023 19:09
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Riptor posted:blessed are the cheeseburgers Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturer of dairy products.
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Sep 11, 2023 19:13
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So any GOP politicians besides maybe McConnell or Romney doing anything wrt to 9/11 memorials today? Can't really see them giving much of a gently caress about that anymore at this stage of the party besides the ones still beholden to pre-Trump traditions and decorum standards. I know Biden's supposed to be doing some events today and assume Bush, Clinton and Obama may do something as well, but I just cannot envision ones like Trump having anythign to do with it and am on the fence on McCarthy, but assume he might be forced into it as the house leader. e: Color me VERY surprised, but apparently Trump did find a couple minutes to release a video statement about it and managed to get through it without talking about the media or witch hunts or any of the usual grievances. 
Kale fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 19:14
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I can belive that Trump did, but that's *only* because he was in New York and it permenently hosed his brain between the attack and the dust lingering in the air. Had he lived in LA at the time or whatever he'd be probably peddling 911 truther nonsense.
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Sep 11, 2023 19:24
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Byzantine posted:Most of the time when people try to claim Christianity amalgamated or stole ideas from other religions it's coming from the angle of discrediting it. A noble goal, but one which drives people to grab ideas separated by thousands of years and thousands of miles (Horus, Yule, Krishna, Mithras, Sol Invictus, etc) and claim they all somehow swirled together around...nothing, since they claim there's no historical Jesus. One of my very clever and deep* theories back when I was 16 or so was that Jesus/God/etc. were the ancient civilization versions of superhero comics. *Obviously neither of those things
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Sep 11, 2023 19:27
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Twincityhacker posted:I can belive that Trump did, but that's *only* because he was in New York and it permenently hosed his brain between the attack and the dust lingering in the air. He does still claim he witnessed Muslims dancing in the streets immediately after the attack, so he's at least adjacent to that crap.
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Sep 11, 2023 19:44
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Twincityhacker posted:I can belive that Trump did, but that's *only* because he was in New York and it permenently hosed his brain between the attack and the dust lingering in the air. Of course he remembers it, it's the day he bragged about now having the tallest building in Manhattan.
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Sep 11, 2023 19:49
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Didn't he also get around to declaring he was at ground zero helping to dig people out? I have hazy memories of that which have a more than fair chance of being wrong.
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Sep 11, 2023 19:59
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McConnell commemorated 9/11 with an impromptu moment of silence.
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Sep 11, 2023 20:03
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bird food bathtub posted:Didn't he also get around to declaring he was at ground zero helping to dig people out? I have hazy memories of that which have a more than fair chance of being wrong. Yep he said that, according to this and other sources. quote:But, there was still some surprise this week when at services to mark the 18th anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks, the president [Trump] insisted, "Soon after, I went down to Ground Zero with men who worked for me to try to help in any little way that we could ... We were not alone. So many others were scattered around trying to do the same. They were all trying to help."
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Sep 11, 2023 20:05
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Discendo Vox posted:McConnell commemorated 9/11 with an impromptu moment of silence. Heard he'd been practicing this a couple times lately.
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Sep 11, 2023 20:46
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Tayter Swift posted:Heard he'd been practicing this a couple times lately. He really really doesn't want to forget, alright?!
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Sep 11, 2023 21:00
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Remember Cynthia McKinney, the six-term Georgia congresswoman who came to national prominence when she said that Bush did 9/11 in April of 2002? Or you might remember that she had an altercation with Capitol police in 2006 because they didn't recognize that she was a member and stopped her (this was where I first found out about the Congressional Pin)? IN 2008 she was the Green Party candidate and got 0.12% of the vote and that's more or less the last I ever heard of her. But she's still around.
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Sep 11, 2023 21:23
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Andrew Cuomo, despite resigning in a rather out-of-character fashion in 2021, continues to disrupt NY politics, this time by getting the state ethics board dissolved (again).quote:The ruling issued Monday by Supreme Court Justice Thomas Marcelle struck down the agency’s enforcement ability, bolstering odds that former Gov. Andrew Cuomo may be able to keep a $5 million payout for his pandemic-era memoir, at least for now. The previous state ethics board, JCOPE, was frequently criticized for being under Cuomo's thumb, especially when it cleared him of ethics violations, and was shut down by Hochul shortly after she took over. The new board was supposed to be more resistant to executive-branch interference due to a requirement that its members be approved by a non-governmental panel of experts, but the judge found that this structure cannot be established by a simple law under NY's current constitution. As a result of this ruling, Cuomo is more likely to keep a disputed $5 million payout from a book he allegedly used state resources to create, detailing how great and admirable his COVID response programs were. The NYS government is also still required to pretend that the replacement Tappan Zee Bridge is named after Cuomo's father
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Sep 11, 2023 21:25
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zoux posted:Remember Cynthia McKinney, the six-term Georgia congresswoman who came to national prominence when she said that Bush did 9/11 in April of 2002? Or you might remember that she had an altercation with Capitol police in 2006 because they didn't recognize that she was a member and stopped her (this was where I first found out about the Congressional Pin)? IN 2008 she was the Green Party candidate and got 0.12% of the vote and that's more or less the last I ever heard of her. But she's still around. I left Georgia close to 15 years ago now and being reminded of this woman's existence now is like an unfriendly slap to the face. Also yikes.
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Sep 11, 2023 22:21
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zoux posted:Remember Cynthia McKinney, the six-term Georgia congresswoman who came to national prominence when she said that Bush did 9/11 in April of 2002? Or you might remember that she had an altercation with Capitol police in 2006 because they didn't recognize that she was a member and stopped her (this was where I first found out about the Congressional Pin)? IN 2008 she was the Green Party candidate and got 0.12% of the vote and that's more or less the last I ever heard of her. But she's still around. Is there an actual tweet, or was it deleted?
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Sep 11, 2023 23:11
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Can’t share it because it’s being embargoed under Twitters anti hate policy (lol) but this tweet she liked is in the replies, so you can get there from here https://twitter.com/paige3691/status/1701271113697816874?s=46&t=A_iY-gupVf13dcIJPetZhQ
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Sep 11, 2023 23:20
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lol that the last time i heard about mckinney was gaza blockade running during Cast Lead
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Sep 11, 2023 23:45
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