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Instant Grat posted:I'm in Denmark, so the options from cheapest on up look like this Hmm, given that line-up the best value IMO is the Kioxia Exceria G2. It's TLC and a very good performing gen3 drive, even has dram. (Kioxia used to be toshiba, but got spun out. They're not a major brand for DIY because their bread and butter is generic OEM drives, and they only occasionally put any effort into performance consumer drives. But they make their own flash so that's good. And the platform is a standard phision 12.)
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Sep 9, 2023 20:09
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Klyith posted:Um, those dropbox image links don't work for anyone but you. Ah geez, fixed it. Sininu posted:Should I be thinking about replacing this as C drive anytime soon? Sininu fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Sep 10, 2023 |
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Sep 10, 2023 01:03
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Sininu posted:Ah geez, fixed it. Both of those are totally fine. Zero uncorrectable errors, no reallocated NAND -- lot of data written but no problems. Crystaldisk is saying 98% and 88% based on the CA Lifetime Remaining stat. But that is one of the ones that's up to the drive manufacturer as to exactly what it means. Some SSDs base it on how much spare space has been used, some base it on total writes vs warranty / spec endurance. Crucial is doing the latter -- the 1TB drive is rated for 360TB written, 51237GB out of 360TB is close enough to 88% (probably some 1000 vs 1024 conversion there). Most every SSD that isn't defective will out-live its spec endurance, by a long shot. I would feel 100% comfortable using those drives even if crystaldisk says 0% health. The two biggest things to look out for are 05 and BB. If 05 reallocated NAND starts dropping quickly or reaches the 10-20 range, think about replacing it. If BB uncorrectable errors starts consistently rising, same. Sininu posted:Also how the heck does my games drive that I got half a year after C drive have this many more power on hours? Weird! Maybe the drive stops counting power-on hours when it is in low power idle? But that would only make sense if you spend more time gaming than everything else.
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Sep 10, 2023 02:15
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Klyith posted:Both of those are totally fine. Zero uncorrectable errors, no reallocated NAND -- lot of data written but no problems. What does the AD average block erase count stat mean? It's always the same as lifetime remaining one quote:Weird! Maybe the drive stops counting power-on hours when it is in low power idle? But that would only make sense if you spend more time gaming than everything else. Sininu fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Sep 10, 2023 |
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Sep 10, 2023 02:37
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Sininu posted:What does the AD average block erase count stat mean? It's always the same as lifetime remaining one NAND flash is weird. You can write in small amounts to empty pages (~KBs), but you can't change data without erasing it first. And to erase anything you have to do it in bigger blocks (~MBs). So the block erase count is some measurement of how many times the blocks have been erased. Two possibilities: 1. block erase is always the same stat as lifetime remaining, because crucial is using block erase count as the measure for endurance 2. block erase is the same for your drives, but could be different if you had a lot of write amplification and other stuff that makes SSDs unhappy What it is exactly?  the tl;dr here is most of the stats in SSD SMART aren't super-meaningful. Reallocated blocks are the big measure of wear, and uncorrectable errors are the "poo poo is going bad" warning.
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Sep 10, 2023 04:51
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Is the WD Black SN850X 2TB PCIe Gen4 NVMe M.2 2280 a good buy at $159.99 CAD sale price down from $379.99?
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Sep 10, 2023 14:36
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Agrajag posted:Is the WD Black SN850X 2TB PCIe Gen4 NVMe M.2 2280 a good buy at $159.99 CAD sale price down from $379.99? The "down from" isn't particularly special -- all SSDs are a lot cheaper than they used to be. Looking at canada pcpartpicker, that's a pretty good price, only $10 more than the SN770. Is "vuugo" a reputable store that you'd buy from? They have the Crucial P5 Plus for $130, which is the cheapest drive I'd put in the "performance" category. (The SN850X is faster in benchmarks, but not by a margin you'd notice in practice.) OTOH the P5 Plus is hot & uses more power than most drives, so I would not recommend it for a laptop.
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Sep 10, 2023 14:57
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Klyith posted:The "down from" isn't particularly special -- all SSDs are a lot cheaper than they used to be. I've never heard of vuugo I usually buy all my electronics from my local electronics/pc chain store Canada Computers. edit: looks like Crucial P5 Plus $219 at Canada Computers
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Sep 10, 2023 15:07
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Agrajag posted:Is the WD Black SN850X 2TB PCIe Gen4 NVMe M.2 2280 a good buy at $159.99 CAD sale price down from $379.99? I hope so because I bought a pair of them at that price from CC!
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Sep 10, 2023 16:10
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Agrajag posted:I've never heard of vuugo I usually buy all my electronics from my local electronics/pc chain store Canada Computers. I bought from vuugo a couple of times in the last 10 years and they were ok. There's also MemoryExpress, who have brick and mortar stores as well in some locations. Sometimes they're cheaper than Canada Computers.
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Sep 10, 2023 17:22
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Subjunctive posted:I hope so because I bought a pair of them at that price from CC! Yeah I just went and to grab 2 myself after I noticed there was also an extra 10 bucks off coupon per purchase on top of the sale. Basically I paid 149.99 CAD each before tax.
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Sep 10, 2023 18:14
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I got my dumb M.2 screw kit in and put in the new NVMe (Samsung 970 EVO Plus). I noticed right away how much hotter this thing runs than my system drive (a 960 EVO). Apparently the thermal limit on the 970 Plus is 70ºC and, while I'm currently xferring all my storage drive data to it, it's hitting kinda close to that, in the low 60s. Is this a concern for longevity? FWIW, my M.2 slots are: directly under the CPU cooler (system); directly under the GPU (storage). The former stays cool, the latter is worryingly hot. GPU, CPU, and ambient temps are all currently in the low-to-mid 30s. The GPU gets pretty hot when 3D gaming, that might be an issue going forward. 
Ofecks fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Sep 10, 2023 |
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Sep 10, 2023 19:32
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Ofecks posted:I got my dumb M.2 screw kit in and put in the new NVMe (Samsung 970 EVO Plus). I noticed right away how much hotter this thing runs than my system drive (a 960 EVO). Apparently the thermal limit on the 970 Plus is 70ºC and, while I'm currently xferring all my storage drive data to it, it's hitting kinda close to that, in the low 60s. Is this a concern for longevity? See what it's like in general usage, not when you're hitting it with a big data transfer to fill it up for the first time.
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Sep 10, 2023 19:46
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Ofecks posted:Apparently the thermal limit on the 970 Plus is 70ºC and, while I'm currently xferring all my storage drive data to it, it's hitting kinda close to that, in the low 60s. Is this a concern for longevity? No: the NAND flash likes being warm, and writing when at 40-50C will actually increase data retention / longevity. Ironically, putting a water cooler on a SSD (a thing that exists!) would theoretically *reduce* lifespan because your flash would always be more or less room temp while writing. The controller OTOH is pretty much a little ARM CPU with some specialized IO, and just like any other CPU doesn't like to get too hot. So that's what throttles when it hits 70C (likely a conservative value). Doing 100s of GB of sustained writes is pretty much the hottest thing it's gonna do, so if it's under 70 now it'll probably stay under 70 while you're gaming despite the GPU. OTOH if it does stay above 50C while you're gaming, you can get adhesive or clip-on heatsinks / heatspreaders for m.2 drives. Don't get anything elaborate -- as said, the drives do kinda like being warm. A little thin one is enough.
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Sep 10, 2023 20:06
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Klyith posted:Doing 100s of GB of sustained writes is pretty much the hottest thing it's gonna do, so if it's under 70 now it'll probably stay under 70 while you're gaming despite the GPU. Hot NAND good, got it. By "controller" do you mean the ASIC? That presumably is drive temp 2 in my screenshot. That got up to 85C, I saw. Not good? I don't think I'll be able to put even a small heatsink on the 970. It's almost literally bumping up against the side of the GPU. There's almost no clearance. I can get a fingertip in the gap but that's about it (and I'm a thin dude with thin fingers). Poor mobo design choice by ASUS, maybe? It's a microATX board and I'd prefer if the 2nd M.2 slot was all the way down on the bottom instead of a 2nd GPU slot that I'll never use. The file copy is done and both temps cooled back down to ~45C. I'll test out some 3D games while HWiNFO is running and see how hot it gets. My games are installed on the system drive so it shouldn't be R/W-ing much (or at all) while they're running.
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Sep 10, 2023 21:23
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Ofecks posted:Hot NAND good, got it. By "controller" do you mean the ASIC? That presumably is drive temp 2 in my screenshot. That got up to 85C, I saw. Not good? Oh, didn't look closely enough at the pic. Yeah seems like temp 2 is the controller, and temp 1 is somewhere else. (Maybe on the board, maybe in the flash packages but afaik that's not common?) So yeah that one wants to stay under 70C because while flash likes to be warm, it also doesn't like being too hot. Yeah the controller is pretty much a CPU, and will throttle at 90C or something, but all that does is limit performance. Not a big deal. And that can get hotter than the flash. Ofecks posted:I don't think I'll be able to put even a small heatsink on the 970. Yeah you probably won't need to worry about it. Even if you had games installed on that drive, games aren't read-intense enough to produce the same heat load you just did with all those writes. The other thing you can do about the situation, since you can't fit even a thin heatspreader, is lower temps overall with more system ventilation. Particularly if the GPU is blowing air onto the drive. Ofecks posted:Poor mobo design choice by ASUS, maybe? It's a microATX board and I'd prefer if the 2nd M.2 slot was all the way down on the bottom instead of a 2nd GPU slot that I'll never use. Back when your mobo was designed NVMe drives weren't high performance enough to overheat themselves, so it wasn't as big a deal. Now most mobos are moving secondary M.2 slots to different positions.
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Sep 10, 2023 21:50
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Update on my cursed Team Group MP33 Pro That's about an additional 500 notches on 0E since yesterday Looking forward to spending an evening installing poo poo and transferring documents/settings/saves over once I get a new drive in, probably Tuesday
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Sep 10, 2023 22:09
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What SATA SSD or M.2 NVME would be a good $/GB for mass storage in the 4TB range? I guess the use case is I like downloading a lot of  and transferring to external HDD's
Agrajag fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Sep 10, 2023 |
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Sep 10, 2023 22:11
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Agrajag posted:What SATA SSD or M.2 NVME would be a good $/GB for mass storage in the 4TB range? Is there a reason you need SSD storage specifically? 4TB is about the region where HDDs start to be massively cheaper than SSDs. I can only speak for prices here in Denmark, but a cursory glance shows even the cheapest 4TB SSD (a SATA-based Samsung QLC drive) being over twice as expensive as an equally capacitous HDD, internal or external.
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Sep 10, 2023 22:16
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Instant Grat posted:Is there a reason you need SSD storage specifically? 4TB is about the region where HDDs start to be massively cheaper than SSDs. I can only speak for prices here in Denmark, but a cursory glance shows even the cheapest 4TB SSD (a SATA-based Samsung QLC drive) being over twice as expensive as an equally capacitous HDD, internal or external. Oh, nvm then, I kind of assumed since 1TB and 2TB have come down so much in prices lately that 4TB would be the same.
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Sep 10, 2023 22:18
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The noise and power savings, the increased speed, and the smaller physical size may be worth the extra money to you! Don't let me dissuade you if those things balance out the extra upfront cost. I've heard a lot of people singing the praises of the Crucial MX500, and that's available in a 4TB capacity. PCPartPicker says $200 or so for that. Roughly the same price for the WD Blue SATA and SanDisk Ultra 3D, which I think are also basically fine. For NVMe, if you just want cheap bulk SSD storage, the Kingston NV2 is (relatively) cheap as hell. It's technically a PCIe 4x4 drive, but it'll never hit the speed limit of even PCIe 3x4. Kingston have deliberately listed basically no specs for it besides sequential read and write, so they can chuck whatever components on each batch that's cheap that day and meets those specs. For media/games that you have backed up elsewhere anyway and/or can easily re-download, it might meet your needs for cheap. "Cheap" in this instance is still "over twice the price of a 4TB WD Blue HDD" Instant Grat fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Sep 10, 2023 |
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Sep 10, 2023 22:28
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At 4 TB you're paying a premium for a big drive, so the $/GB is worse than 2TB. But there are decent options that aren't too overpriced if you like the idea of all-solid-state storage. NVMe: Crucial P3 is QLC and $190 SATA: WD Blue or Crucial MX500 (buy whichever is cheaper that day) are TLC and ~$200 The P3 QLC will be very annoying when you are first dumping a few TB of data onto it. After like 2-300 GB, write speed will drop to worse-than-hdd slow. Otherwise it'll be fine. The sata drives don't have that problem, but are limited to sata speed and has wires. Instant Grat posted:Update on my cursed Team Group MP33 Pro TBQH I'm a bit impressed that it's doubling the error rate every day but hasn't yet corrupted the FS, or even the whole drive mapping table. Ol yeller needs a bullet.
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Sep 10, 2023 22:42
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Tangential related https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbaYeiAr_30 Starfield is a wonderful game that does a lot of low queue depth small block size IO. Talked about it earlier but theoretically this is the exact type of workload that solidigms smart driver promises to be a solution for
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Sep 10, 2023 23:46
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Instant Grat posted:Looking forward to spending an evening installing poo poo and transferring documents/settings/saves over once I get a new drive in, probably Tuesday Is it so far gone that you can’t just Clonezilla your way to victory all at once? Apropos which: I cloned (zilla) my brother-in-law’s 12-year-old barracuda spinning rust onto an SSD, but when I went to boot from the SSD Windows couldn’t find the OS. The EFI directory didn’t look like I expected, but it looked the same as on the source drive, so I figured it would work. Is this some problem where SSDs aren’t bootable if they’re MBR, maybe? The motherboard is modern (I forget the model) and had been booting from an SSD quite happily before my BIL inherited it. I’m hoping I can find some way to repair things such that it’s bootable, since doing a manual copy to a GPT-formatted thing seems annoying and error-prone.
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Sep 10, 2023 23:51
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It seems like a mixed bag. My old z370s would not even entertain booting off of my NVMe drives regardless of legacy/GPT after clone. Had to be fresh install. My latest x670e was fine at first but the latest BIOS for it seemed to break the legacy module I am also 0-2 on trying to update a SATA SSD legacy mbr to GPT and clone to NVMe. In fact I just killed most of the weekend over trying and failing to use mbr2gpt, killing the boot loader trying to fix thr mbr2gpt errors, recovering the boot loader with third party software, successfully converting to GPT with third party software, then killing everything again after running clonezilla. I think Windows really hates when it sees two identical uuid partitions, mbr2gpt isn’t necessarily bullet proof, and just starting fresh with got seems like a better recipe for nvme drives At work I’ve cloned Linux drives with dd no issue, just have to remember to account for the duplicate uuids somehow or weird behaviors happen in our test environment WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 00:00
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Windows was OK with the duplicate UUIDs or whatever, it just refused to mount one of the drives until I adjusted the one on the clone. It could then mount and interact with the cloned disk just fine. I really don’t want to have to do a full installation because copying everything over will be a huge pain and I don’t want to be providing support for “yet-one-more hidden configuration thing” with it being a 90-minute drive away. I wonder if I could create a GPT drive, install Windows 10 on it somehow, and then clonezilla just the C: partition to the new disk?
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Sep 11, 2023 00:21
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With my recent clonezilla, after trying to boot with boot drives still connected, the original source drive completely stopped booting, and looking at disk part windows decided to remap it from C to some other drive letter. Even manually moving it back didn’t fix it so I assume windows got really confused and did some stuff under the hood that broke the drivequote:I wonder if I could create a GPT drive, install Windows 10 on it somehow, and then clonezilla just the C: partition to the new disk? Yeah I was scrambling to try and find that out but just did a clean install in the end because I didn’t want some jank causing stupid issues that would force me to drive back over. Plus it was a Windows 10 Home install carried over from installing Windows 7 over a decade ago so might as well WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 00:43
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Ofecks posted:Hot NAND good, got it. By "controller" do you mean the ASIC? That presumably is drive temp 2 in my screenshot. That got up to 85C, I saw. Not good? Generally, everything is designed to throttle these days before they reach unsafe temperatures. You can probably run the drive at its max temperature 24/7 and, well, I won't guarantee it won't die an early death because that probably means you're working the thing to the bone, but it won't be due to temperature in that case. The throttling mechanism is there to ensure that chips don't kill themselves from overheating anymore.
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Sep 11, 2023 02:49
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I don’t know how it is in the client land but enterprise the drive automatically starts throttling operations somewhere above 70C and shut the drat thing off at somewhere above 80C Based off the composite temperature. What makes up the comp temp calculation (nand temp, asic temp, etc) is up to the vendor to define WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 03:28
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Subjunctive posted:Is it so far gone that you can’t just Clonezilla your way to victory all at once? Klyith suggested (and I agree) that with that many errors, it's probably safest to do a clean install on the new drive. For peace of mind, if nothing else.
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Sep 11, 2023 07:25
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Generally, everything is designed to throttle these days before they reach unsafe temperatures. You can probably run the drive at its max temperature 24/7 and, well, I won't guarantee it won't die an early death because that probably means you're working the thing to the bone, but it won't be due to temperature in that case. The throttling mechanism is there to ensure that chips don't kill themselves from overheating anymore. WhyteRyce posted:I don’t know how it is in the client land but enterprise the drive automatically starts throttling operations somewhere above 70C and shut the drat thing off at somewhere above 80C Yeah, since after the copy job, it pretty much immediately cooled down to a temp more along the lines of what I was expecting, I'm not really that worried about it anymore. I played a 3D game last night, and while my GPU got up to 70C, the 970 only hit 50. And that's idle, it wasn't being used at all. So a bit more than if my GPU isn't being stressed, but still fine, based on what all of you have said. In the highly unlikely event that I'm doing another large copy job while 3D gaming, there might be a throttling issue, but I still don't really care as long as all the bits fall into line and stay that way.
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Sep 11, 2023 18:07
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Instant Grat posted:Klyith suggested (and I agree) that with that many errors, it's probably safest to do a clean install on the new drive. For peace of mind, if nothing else. Hmm, but you’ll assume that your docs and stuff are OK? I guess you don’t have a choice with them, so that makes sense. I was thinking a clone and then running Windows repair on it if things are flaky. If the drive is returning bad data at that stage of decay I’m a little surprised, since while things are trending badly they are still within operating parameters.
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Sep 11, 2023 18:34
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Qs about my new backup external SSD: - It came pre-formatted as exFAT. Any reason to keep it that way over NTFS? Portability? - Immediately upon first connecting it, a Samsung Magician thing popped up asking if I wanted to password-secure it. I went ahead and did so for now. Is that sufficient, or should I BitLocker it later instead? - It came with PC/Mac "setup" programs on it, should I keep those? Also, any recommendations for a file syncing Windows app (native or otherwise)? Since the new backup will always be connected, I plan to run a regular scheduled update every week, and I want it to be a mirror of my new internal storage SSD (the 970).
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Sep 11, 2023 20:23
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This isn’t one of the Samsung Extreme drives I hope, given the recent news about them…
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Sep 11, 2023 20:45
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Ofecks posted:- It came pre-formatted as exFAT. Any reason to keep it that way over NTFS? Portability? Works on any OS, is somewhat more tolerant than NTFS when you pull the plug without properly doing a Safely Remove Hardware*. *which is a mixed bag -- NTFS having error-resilient journaling is why it knows that you didn't cleanly unmount it. For dumb removable drives like usb thumbsticks and SD cards exFAT is generally better than NTFS for a couple of reasons, but with a real drive NTFS is fine, presuming you don't need MacOS compatibility. (Linux can do NTFS just fine.) Ofecks posted:- Immediately upon first connecting it, a Samsung Magician thing popped up asking if I wanted to password-secure it. I went ahead and did so for now. Is that sufficient, or should I BitLocker it later instead? That is sufficient as long as you aren't worried about the Mossad stealing your data. Self-encrypting drives have been known to have weaknesses. Ofecks posted:- It came with PC/Mac "setup" programs on it, should I keep those? You should be able to get them from samsung's website later if you need them. Ofecks posted:Also, any recommendations for a file syncing Windows app (native or otherwise)? You could do something like freefilesync, or use real backup software if you want more sophisticated features like incremental history. Before I switched to linux I did backups with robocopy (the poor mans rsync).
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Sep 11, 2023 20:52
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Subjunctive posted:This isn’t one of the Samsung Extreme drives I hope, given the recent news about them… I don't think so? It's a Samsung T7 Shield. Klyith posted:That is sufficient as long as you aren't worried about the Mossad stealing your data. Self-encrypting drives have been known to have weaknesses. Hm, good to know. I'll probably switch it to BitLocker to keep consistency with my other 2 drives. Speaking of, I'm guessing I need a different PIN for each drive once I get TPM/BL set up? Klyith posted:You could do something like freefilesync, or use real backup software if you want more sophisticated features like incremental history. Looks like FFS has what I'm looking for. Thanks. What's the use case for incremental history? Is that the feature in Windows Pro where it keeps backups of previous versions of files and you can restore to those versions at any time? I no longer work in IT but that was a really handy feature at my last job.
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Sep 11, 2023 22:01
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Ofecks posted:Hm, good to know. I'll probably switch it to BitLocker to keep consistency with my other 2 drives. Speaking of, I'm guessing I need a different PIN for each drive once I get TPM/BL set up? Uh, you can use the same PIN for all of them if you want to. I don't think there's any tech reason not to. Only if you for example wanted to be able to tell someone the PIN for one drive without also telling them how to unlock your data drive or whatever. (OTOH I'm basing that on experience with password-protected bitlocker, where if I plug in 2 drives with the same password it still asks for the password on the 2nd one. Maybe TPM/PIN is different?) Ofecks posted:What's the use case for incremental history? Is that the feature in Windows Pro where it keeps backups of previous versions of files and you can restore to those versions at any time? I no longer work in IT but that was a really handy feature at my last job. Yeah. And that's right, you could use windows file history to do the job, it would work great on an external you are leaving connected to the PC all the time. I always forget that feature exists.
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Sep 11, 2023 22:50
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If I use all the M.2 NVME slots in this board does it disable SATA or something like that? ASUS TUF Gaming Z790-Plus WiFi LGA 1700 https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=26_1842&item_id=233686 I really really like the idea of using all NVME but also want the option to still use SATA for extra storage, if needed, down the road.
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Sep 13, 2023 00:29
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Agrajag posted:If I use all the M.2 NVME slots in this board does it disable SATA or something like that? Nope. AFAIK the whole "use a m.2 slot, sata gets disabled" was mainly an AMD thing, and even AMD has stopped doing it. Everybody is just cutting back to 4 sata ports now. Also the manuals for mobos are all online in pdf btw, so it's easy to look them up before you buy.
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Sep 13, 2023 01:45
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It's a bit old, but mine (ASUS Prime Z270M-Plus) does something like that. The M.2 slots can tap either the SATA or PCIE bus, and if slot 1 (and only slot 1) is in SATA mode, SATA header 1 on the board is disabled. So it's a non-issue with NVMe drives.
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Sep 13, 2023 14:46
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