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I am at least morbidly curious to see how they follow up from where Rebellion left off
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Sep 10, 2023 17:16
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I think homur needs to get a hobby, rather than whatever shes doing with her life
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Sep 10, 2023 17:50
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Namtab posted:I think homur needs to get a hobby, rather than whatever shes doing with her life Playing God/Satan in a world of her own making while essentially holding her friend/crush hostage to prevent her from fulfilling her destiny?
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Sep 10, 2023 17:53
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Maybe she should try gunpla
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Sep 10, 2023 17:57
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Larryb posted:Playing God/Satan in a world of her own making while essentially holding her friend/crush hostage to prevent her from fulfilling her destiny? seems fail, has she tried gaming
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Sep 10, 2023 18:01
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I mean I thought it'd be hard to top the TV ending but they did so I'm gonna give them a chance. And hey even if it doesn't turn out good I'm gonna give them a lot of leeway if they end it with Madoka/Homura actually dating
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Sep 10, 2023 19:23
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I’m kind of hoping they at least don’t go full villain with Homura like the trailer seems to imply (though the title indicates that the final boss of the series proper is going to return somehow)
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Sep 10, 2023 19:26
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I think it's super funny how people were like "the ending of the show was perfect why do they need to ruin it with a sequel" when Rebellion came out and the Rebellion ending likers are now going through the exact same process. Regardless of how good the movie actually is I fully support the next Great Schism (but also I think it's insane that Rebellion ended on the promise of interesting interpersonal conflict and there is a significant number of people who are like actually I hope they never follow through on that at all) edit: also that "staff" is actually just a phone that's in the foreground but positioned in a way that makes it look like Homura's holding it lol BlitznBurst fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Sep 10, 2023 |
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Sep 10, 2023 19:38
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i felt like the ending of rebellion was begging for a sequel to explore the new scenario homura created and how stepping across that line affects her. i can see people not wanting a continuation to the original show's ending but saying rebellion should have been where it stopped is a little crazy to me.Larryb posted:I’m kind of hoping they at least don’t go full villain with Homura like the trailer seems to imply i believe this was already the point of the ending of rebellion. i'll admit i haven't seen it in a while and my memory of it is pretty hazy but i recall this being pretty explicit
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Sep 10, 2023 19:43
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https://twitter.com/angeban93/status/1700916899184579021?s=20
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Sep 10, 2023 19:44
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ninjewtsu posted:i felt like the ending of rebellion was begging for a sequel to explore the new scenario homura created and how stepping across that line affects her. i can see people not wanting a continuation to the original show's ending but saying rebellion should have been where it stopped is a little crazy to me. Oh she’s definitely lost it but it’s a matter of how much further this film takes it from what happened in Rebellion. Also some interesting tidbits about the trailer someone posted in the Magia Record thread: Cephas posted:I dunno if I really need to put screencaps of a movie trailer in spoilers but I'll do it just in case I guess.
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Sep 10, 2023 19:47
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Larryb posted:Oh she’s definitely lost it but it’s a matter of how much further this film takes it from what happened in Rebellion. yeah i just idk man once you're at ripping the godhood out of someone when they come to save you from transforming into a witch i can't help but feel like there's not really any questions left to ask re: villain status backpedaling on that would be the more surprising and imo worse outcome tbh
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Sep 10, 2023 19:51
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ninjewtsu posted:yeah i just idk man once you're at ripping the godhood out of someone when they come to save you from transforming into a witch i can't help but feel like there's not really any questions left to ask re: villain status Fair enough though I am curious how the movie is going to handle her regardless (maybe she winds up being the second coming of the titular Walpurgisnacht)
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Sep 10, 2023 19:58
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Larryb posted:Fair enough though I am curious how the movie is going to handle her regardless (maybe she winds up being the second coming of the titular Walpurgisnacht) given that rebellion already had her turning into a witch i'd think they go in some other direction, but i could see that working out. the image implies that some other homura is going to fight her, which would be kind of neat - exploring how twisted her experience made her via a version of herself from closer to when she started going through the cycles being aligned against her would be a cool manifestation of that. though tbh i'm kind of more interested in how kyubei goes. the ending of rebellion had some clear imagery showing kyubei being usurped as the main villain (the closing shot is kyubei shuffling after being tossed aside like a ragdoll iirc?). i feel like there's several obvious directions they could take homura in but what they do with kyubei is just a big ? for me outside of "kyubei is absolutely not becoming an admirable figure in any way shape or form"
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Sep 10, 2023 20:12
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ninjewtsu posted:though tbh i'm kind of more interested in how kyubei goes. the ending of rebellion had some clear imagery showing kyubei being usurped as the main villain (the closing shot is kyubei shuffling after being tossed aside like a ragdoll iirc?). i feel like there's several obvious directions they could take homura in but what they do with kyubei is just a big ? for me outside of "kyubei is absolutely not becoming an admirable figure in any way shape or form" Legit the only thing I can think they do with the character is "we need to retrieve it because it's a source of information we don't have" for the heroes.
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Sep 10, 2023 20:17
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claw game handjob posted:Legit the only thing I can think they do with the character is "we need to retrieve it because it's a source of information we don't have" for the heroes. Besides, Homura’s proven multiple times over that you can’t kill the little bastard so I’m not sure what else they could do at this point
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Sep 10, 2023 20:20
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I dunno man I feel like kyubei getting trashed and going "eh, whatever I'm just gonna chill I guess" is also pretty opposed to who the character is and want he does. Like if memory serves he was a relative nonactor in rebellion only to towards the end reveal that the entire setup of the movie was something he was controlling and had engineered specifically to observe how it would play out. I'd be surprised if the cat didn't continue to be a major instigator of events. I think my expectation is that he reasserts himself as the main villain towards the end but who loving knows. I guess his conflict with homura might take more of a center stage?
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Sep 10, 2023 20:26
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Oh I won't cry bullshit if they thought of something better than what I did, that's just all I can imagine for it given that Rebellion showed it pretty thoroughly rear end-whooped but being kept close-by because of course you don't trust the little troublemaker.
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Sep 10, 2023 20:33
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ninjewtsu posted:yeah i just idk man once you're at ripping the godhood out of someone when they come to save you from transforming into a witch i can't help but feel like there's not really any questions left to ask re: villain status maybe i missed something, but i fail to see how that is a villain path - she is doing it to offer Madoka a normal life instead of basically ceasing to exist as a person for the sake of the universe. It's a nearsighted decision which will fail ultimately born out of guilt, sure, but the TV ending is not a happy ending for her at all and I don't get how it makes her a villain. also, i do not think the previous status quo was in any sense stable at all anyway. since iirc kyubey says he'll try to control her.
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Sep 10, 2023 20:57
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Oh I’d be down for them taking Kyubei down for good but I’m just not sure how exactly you’d go about doing it at this point since he just keeps bouncing back no matter how much damage he takes (plus there’s more Incubators where he came from). The appearance of a second Homura feels like a case of the writers wanting to have their cake and eat it too (she stays as a threat but also helps the other magical girls against her) though as mentioned that could be interesting if handled right I guess the end of this movie all depends on whether they want to put this series to bed for good or stretch it out even further. Either way I’ll at least be curious to see what they come up with
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Sep 10, 2023 20:57
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sube posted:maybe i missed something, but i fail to see how that is a villain path - she is doing it to offer Madoka a normal life instead of basically ceasing to exist as a person for the sake of the universe. It's a nearsighted decision which will fail ultimately born out of guilt, sure, but the TV ending is not a happy ending for her at all and I don't get how it makes her a villain. you can certainly interpret it in that way - and i think the movie wants you to on some level to provide motivation and sympathy for her actions - but she's pretty expressly doing it against the wishes of the person she's "saving" and inevitably dooming all magical girls to their original horrid fate in exchange. i also recall the framing of it being extremely villainous, with homura acknowledging at the end that she's being a lovely selfish person for it but is doing it regardless because that's what she wants? idk i may have to go doublecheck it but "homura is now a villain born out of grief and an over-devotion to the intense but twisted love she formed during endless trauma" seemed like the very clear takeaway to me at the time.
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Sep 10, 2023 21:03
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ninjewtsu posted:you can certainly interpret it in that way - and i think the movie wants you to on some level to provide motivation and sympathy for her actions - but she's pretty expressly doing it against the wishes of the person she's "saving" and inevitably dooming all magical girls to their original horrid fate in exchange. i also recall the framing of it being extremely villainous, with homura acknowledging at the end that she's being a lovely selfish person for it but is doing it regardless because that's what she wants? idk i may have to go doublecheck it but "homura is now a villain born out of grief and an over-devotion to the intense but twisted love she formed during endless trauma" seemed like the very clear takeaway to me at the time. a lot of the framing is, in my view, just an expression of Homura's self-view as being the villain due to guilt and self-hatred for what she has done. I don't think it's a good decision to impose one's will, obviously, but I don't think she is a villain here particularly for it - even if creating a system bound to one's whims and warped morals is obviously not good long-term. And I generally think there's a bit too much idolisation of the previous status quo, despite Madoka preserving the magic girl system largely (because it gives people hope in her view) while Homura temporarily abolishes it. and, like i said, i don't think the previous status quo was necessarily stable either. iirc rebellion has Kyubei stating as such, how he'd bend it to his benefit again so if she doomed people herself i find dubious.
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Sep 10, 2023 21:26
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well i mean, kyubei being placed in any situation will be seeking ways to bend it to his advantage, that's just what he always does. the fact that he will do so in any proposed situation is pretty value neutral, i think? meanwhile in one of these status quos magical girls are consumed by their negative emotions and become murderous witches, while in the other they are not. the biggest problem with the previous status quo was that it was built ont eh sacrifce of madoka, though unlike omelas or w/e that was entirely her decision (and, in fact, her idea). it certainly was not a perfect situation, but the fact that kyubei was still probing for holes in it rather than actively exploiting a hole seems pretty notable to me? in any case i'm not sure i'd rest her villain status on the fact that she's made a worse situation for nearly everyone (though she has done that) so much as despite her actions being out of love, they're in direct opposition to the person she loves. it's a pretty classic stepping too far over the line story in that regard, she's decided that she'll make madoka's decisions for her and is negating madoka's agency in favor of what homura personally thinks would be better. love turning into control and disregard for another's aspirations and wants is a textbook villainous arc i think? and as the cherry on top of that she's undoing all of the benefits of madoka's great sacrifice too, hurting who knows how many to do something that not even madoka wants. i think where kyubei is a villain born out of the horrors of "pure logic" (though honestly in that regard i find madoka's specifics in how "logical" he is rather frustrating) homura at the end of rebellion is meant to represent the other side of that - embracing her emotions so single-mindedly that she's hurting everyone and acting against the object of her affection. obviously that's not necessarily the "correct" read and i don't want to push that specifically over others, but i do find the read that what homura's doing is meant to be viewed as heroic or even value-neutral actions pretty hard to swallow ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Sep 10, 2023 |
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Sep 10, 2023 21:41
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Case in point, there’s literally a scene at the end of Rebellion where she stops Madoka from recalling her true memories
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Sep 10, 2023 21:47
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Larryb posted:Case in point, there’s literally a scene at the end of Rebellion where she stops Madoka from recalling her true memories i had forgotten about that and that is tremendously hosed up
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Sep 10, 2023 21:49
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Madoka's wish was made under conditions of extreme duress, and not one she would have made if she had any real choice in the matter. The Wraith system, while a minor improvement over the Witch system, still isn't actually good for anyone. It continues to thrive on the exploitation of vulnerable teenagers; the only real difference is that it's marginally less focused on causing intentional emotional distress. This isn't the fault of Madoka herself, it's important to note, but of the fact that she was still being forced to operate within the rules that Kyubey had set. The flower field scene makes it clear that, if it weren't for Madoka having a metaphorical gun to the heads of everyone she loved, it is not a choice that she would've made willingly. This is the point where Homura first resolves to take direct action to sabotage the system entirely, something that only intensifies when she finds out what Kyubey's new plan is. Like Madoka before her, she's forced into a position where she's given a choice with one real answer: She either allows Kyubey to exploit Madoka even more than before, or she removes Madoka from the equation entirely. From the flower field onward, her path has been set as a straight line. As for her being positioned as the villain in all of this? That's how she truly sees herself, and how she did even before the events of Rebellion. She resigned herself to the fact that saving Madoka would require potentially abandoning the rest of the Quintet, and in the process hurting Madoka herself. She is steeped in years of guilt and trauma, and it has become so deeply entrenched that she can't see herself as anything but an irredeemable monster, fit only for the guillotine.
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Sep 10, 2023 22:13
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I probably gotta rewatch the series and Rebellion at some point
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Sep 10, 2023 22:16
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BlitznBurst posted:but also I think it's insane that Rebellion ended on the promise of interesting interpersonal conflict and there is a significant number of people who are like actually I hope they never follow through on that at all
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Sep 10, 2023 22:17
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What if they do a Thunderbolt Fantasy crossover video with a Homura puppet like they did with Saber for that one April Fool's thing
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Sep 10, 2023 22:21
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Saigyouji posted:Madoka's wish was made under conditions of extreme duress, and not one she would have made if she had any real choice in the matter. The Wraith system, while a minor improvement over the Witch system, still isn't actually good for anyone. It continues to thrive on the exploitation of vulnerable teenagers; the only real difference is that it's marginally less focused on causing intentional emotional distress. This isn't the fault of Madoka herself, it's important to note, but of the fact that she was still being forced to operate within the rules that Kyubey had set. i think it'd be best if i stopped being the thread main character so i'll put forward my final points: i think my biggest point of contention is i don't see why this isn't all correct, and also homura is indeed the villain she sees herself as. her motivations are understandable and sympathetic and borne out of awful circumstances that make it all make some amount of sense, and that describes probably most villains in fiction. the level of sympathy for her can vary depending on the read but i don't see how her actions don't make her, like, an antagonist who's knowingly and purposefully hurting the main cast. that her reasons can be effectively articulated and sympathized with don't change that. ultimately this feels pretty ironclad re:villain status to me: Larryb posted:Case in point, there’s literally a scene at the end of Rebellion where she stops Madoka from recalling her true memories
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Sep 10, 2023 22:29
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Yeah, that scene always felt a bit abusive to me (hence my hostage comment from earlier). A sympathetic antagonist is still an antagonist but there’s a number of ways the new movie could deal with that. Like I said, we’ll see how things go
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Sep 10, 2023 22:34
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Kinda felt like that story was complete, but I thought the same before seeing Rebellion too. I'll watch it and hope for the best.
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Sep 10, 2023 22:45
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It's OK or even ideal for a villainous character to have motives that are understandable or that you can even be sympathetic to and even be just wrong about things instead of being a bad person. Homura is 100% acting independantly and primarily in her own personal interest but that's been her M.O. for the entire series.BlitznBurst posted:I think it's super funny how people were like "the ending of the show was perfect why do they need to ruin it with a sequel" when Rebellion came out and the Rebellion ending likers are now going through the exact same process. I think it's OK and even sometimes desirable to recognise that a story is complete and doesn't need anything else, but to be happy when something new does come out. I'd love more Lycoreco but I also accept the ending where they're all happy on Hawaii
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Sep 10, 2023 22:58
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Lycoreco definitely has more unresolved hooks for a sequel than Madoka though even if the ending is perfectly good if we don't get more.
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Sep 10, 2023 23:11
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They already announced a new Lycoreco anime tho
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Sep 10, 2023 23:27
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Good and I'm very excited for it but my point still stands and is objectively correct
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Sep 10, 2023 23:44
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drat, its hosed up, that someone in madoka messed with someone else's memories. imagine. imagine if someone in madoka messed with someone else's memories. i cant believe homura was the first person to mess with someones memories.
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Sep 10, 2023 23:55
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wait did some character do that and it was portrayed as a good thing at some point?
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Sep 11, 2023 00:03
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I can't remember
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Sep 11, 2023 00:04
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Endorph posted:drat, its hosed up, that someone in madoka messed with someone else's memories. imagine. imagine if someone in madoka messed with someone else's memories. i cant believe homura was the first person to mess with someones memories. No pun intended but I forget, who else in the series messed with memories besides Homura and what was the context for it?
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Sep 11, 2023 00:18
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